OzVMX Forum

Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout) on February 07, 2008, 02:07:08 pm

Title: Decibels
Post by: Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout) on February 07, 2008, 02:07:08 pm
Can't find the thread on the new 96db issue, so don't know if this has been previously passed on or not.  But got it direct from a member of the MNSW MX subcommittee last night that the actual noise regs say that the limit is 96db 'or as specified in any existing legislated noise requirement' (quote from him, not the book itself).  He went on to say that meant that for NSW, 102db was therefore the limit.  And ACT, there was a noise limit taken from a different distance from machines which equated to 102db.

So for those (in NSW/ACT at least) still a bit worried about being tested, coming in at 100db and being told to fix it or not ride, it won't happen.  Or if it does, tell them to read the book again.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on February 07, 2008, 03:56:17 pm
Got the Moms book other day and definately states 96DB for all MX but not road
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on February 07, 2008, 09:25:18 pm
I respect "the get up and go" of anyone that gets on to a  Volunteer Ruling Sub Committee in any branch of motorcycle sport. But..... Twisty "the onus will be on you the competitor" to prove his unfortunate statement is correct . Please read the cost of your protest track side, start to include lawyers , Courts and other paid informants, riff /raff later on and then realize that his hearsay statement is not going to hold one drop of water. If anything it means that Federal , State or Local laws or bylaws that are LOWER than 96 will be taken to apply to the area you riding at. If the Manual of Motorcycle Sport states 96 at your type of meeting  96 IT IS ! no Higher regardless. Tim754
Send your protest and your reasons for it NOW to MA Please.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 05, 2008, 09:37:35 pm
we covred this topic real hard, a number of times just do a search, this waqs i think the last one

http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=1541.0

i think you had better hope when they send an MA rep to Tassie you have a flexi pass on the boat, or at least they still agree to hand out warnings, im not going to risk it till its fixed, thats a lot of coin to sit and watch.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on March 05, 2008, 09:47:50 pm
I dunno, I'd agree with Twisty on this. The GCR re noise is 12.10.1.1 which clearly states the limit is 96 unless a different limit is shown in the table provided. However, 12.10.1.2 then states that "where government regulations or planning orders exist in relation to noise testing...the noise emission required will prevail over GCR 12.10.1.1".

Now I suspect the intent is to support cases where government regs require a lower limit, however by my reading ANY noise limit required by a government reg that applies to the venue will apply over and above the GCRs, even if it is a more relaxed limit.

As to what that actually means in ACT/NSW I don't know as I am not familiar with the requirements of the legislation. But worth chasing up I reckon.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout) on March 06, 2008, 09:14:00 am
don't you love it when rules ain't rules?  when they have caveats and shit.  just puts everything back up in the air and up to the poor local enforcer or rider to battle it out.

I personally don't mind if 96 ends up winning - when i sold my RD it had a spanking new DG muffler on that was loud as.  the muffler that came with the RG is the opposite - just gives off a lovely low burble.  reckon there'd be 3 or 4 decibels difference.

main thing is, still able to hear what me engine's up to when the five second board goes out.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 06, 2008, 12:26:48 pm
96 is a killer... now stop being silly.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Board on March 07, 2008, 07:38:36 am
Get real everybody.
What the rules mean, and how they will be applied is that currently the upper limit is 96dba measured at 500mm from the running machine.

If local government regulations insist on a lower again limit, then that will apply to that specific race meeting.

How many of you complained to MA about this limit? Not many I hear.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on March 07, 2008, 11:11:54 am
Be assured that the MA VMX / CDT Commission on behalf of the riders has been lobbying MA for a relaxation of the 96bda requirement for the Tas Nationals and beyond, stay tuned.

211
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on March 07, 2008, 07:29:59 pm
Board, you asked everyone to get real. But that is exactly what everyone IS doing. You may misunderstand what is being said here. The simple fact is that a 96 db limit makes it very difficult for people to enjoy their vintage MX. VMX is NOT a huge sport - there are no huge meetings with thousands of riders all at full noise. Rather, we have a sprinkling of riders who have a very diverse range of riding skills. This rule makes it very hard for people - constituents of motorcycle sport in Australia - to restore and race their old motorcycles.

Getting back to the point about the interpretation of the GCR, I ask you explain your position. The GCR in question, GCR 12.10.1.1, is very clear about a 96db UPPER limit. But GCR 12.10.1.2 is also very clear that GCR 12.10.1.1 is voided if a council or government regulation specifies another limit, and it does not make any specification about that limit being higher or lower. That is entirely open.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Board on March 11, 2008, 09:53:56 am
Graeme,
I have not misunderstood one thing but I think you are missing the point.
I have spoken to MA and have been told that the rule will be interpreted as I stated it. No higher limit that 96dba.
I also asked them how many complaints they had received re Classic MX and was told very few. I don't want 96dba in CMX as my bikes will be hard to make comply.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on March 14, 2008, 09:05:22 pm
Well... my point was simply that I don't think MA could actually defend that interpretation if someone wanted to make a case of it, given the crap wording. However I agree that's just a moot point, how they interpret it is what we have to live with. So the question is, are our representatives doing enough behind the scenes, or do we have to get serious about making a noise (pun intended)? I saw earlier in the thread that we might be in luck from mid year on?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mboddy on March 15, 2008, 08:19:06 am
You are having this discussion 12 months too late.
We are now stuck with these rules for this year at least.
I was doing historic road racing and not dirt last year and made people aware of these limits coming in.
We were able to derail this as well as the proposed Period 5 Methanol rule by fighting them last year.
But this was for Historic Road Race. Classic Dirt racing is stuck with the 96db.

We need to keep an eye on what is happening or going to happen in our sport so that we don't get caught out like this again.

In the mean time we need some discussion on what we need to do to get our bikes under the limit.
For example:
Long aluminium silencers are better than steel or carbon fibre.
The stinger can be extended back into the body of the 2stroke expansion chamber.
Supertrap silencer rings can be added to the end of the alloy silencer to take the bite out of the sound.
Rubber plugs between the cylinder and head fins can take out the ringing.
Countershaft sprockets with the rubber lips to cushion the chain can reduce chain noise.
Thick rubber blocks inside the countershaft sprocket cover.

Can we wrap the exhaust pipe in something?
Should we be getting GMC to make us thicker walled pipes?

What other suggestions do you guys have? 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: fatboyracing on March 15, 2008, 10:05:37 am
Hi all,
We need to lobby MA NOW as there is a board meeting on the 26th and this issue is due to be brought up.
MA have only got about 6 to 8 proper responces to do with the noise level.
Please send an email or write a letter this weekend, once the final decision is made it will be final.
please forward all emails to  [email protected]
I have attached the letter I sent to MA some time ago hopefully this will give you some ideas.

Cheers
Fatboy
Shane Fraser

       
MOTORCYCLING TASMANIA INC
THE CONTROLLING BODY OF MOTORCYCLE SPORT IN TASMANIA(AFFILIATED WITH MOTORCYCLING AUSTRALIA LTD)
P.O. BOX  270                                                  EMAIL                                       
PHONE:  03 64261988 LATROBE   TAS. 7307                     
[email protected]      FAX:        03 64261988

8th January 2008


Motorcycling Australia & Classic Motocross Commission
147 Montague Street
South Melbourne  Vic  3205

We are writing this letter to voice concern and disappointment in relation to the decision by the Commission to alter the noise regulations for Classic MotoX from 102db to 96 db.

This will significantly reduce the number of historic motorcycles eligible to race at club days in Tasmania and in the 2008 Australian Classic MotoX Championships.
 
These motorcycles built between 1960 and 1985 were not designed to run at 96db from new and will not do so even with sever modifications
.
Tas Scramble Club, which is the host club for the 2008 Championships, have been approached by many potential participants concerned about the new noise regulations and being able to comply with the 2008 GCRs for noise.
 
We appeal to you to consider a proposal to bring the noise regulations for Classic Motox Racing in line with those of Historic Road Racing which is 102db.

We believe this would allow more competitors to enter races in this class and at the same time comply with the noise regulations, which ultimately brings more people to the sport of Classic Motocross.

We would appreciate an early response from the Commission so we are able to advise potential competitors with certainty about the regulations for this 2008 Australian Championship event.

Yours sincerely
             

Shane Fraser                                                  Peter Kitto
Vice President                                                  President
Motorcycling Tasmania Inc.                              Motorcycling Tasmania Inc.      
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on March 15, 2008, 10:35:25 am
Jeez fellas, Fatboy says MA have received only six or eight responses to the noise limit debate! ???
That is tragic - and hardly a groundswell of dissent.
How many members are on this Forum......?

Given the volume of written traffic on this Forum can we pls all make an effort to send a letter to MA?
Fatboy has provided the link (and it's no different to posting on this Forum).

 [email protected]

We have eleven days left before the Board meets on 26 March.
Pls send a few lines ASAP.

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on March 15, 2008, 11:01:11 am
I find it disgraceful that MA only got 8 responses to the 96dba. How many of you reading this now didn't bother sending a protest because 'someone else will sort it out'? There are a large number of forum members and possibly hundreds more lurkers and out of that huge number of interested parties we can only raise 6 or 8 protest emails. Pathetic!
If it wan't so serious I'd be pissing myself laughing. Forum members will waffle on for page after page on Suzuki footpegs, Posty bikes or something equally as trivial but when something comes along that seriously threatens our sport you all treat it with overwhelming apathy. The cyber racer lives on.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: All Things 414 on March 15, 2008, 11:07:13 am
I sent one then and I've sent one now.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tony T on March 15, 2008, 12:14:13 pm
I must honestly say that I have not read any of the decibel threads before now.  :-\
However, now knowing the full situation, I have sent my submission this morning and appeal to all of you to do the same.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: bingil 6 on March 15, 2008, 04:22:53 pm
Sorry Lads, I was one of those not doing anything about it , just lazy, but have just submitted my protest Cheers
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 090 on March 15, 2008, 04:34:14 pm
Thanks Grahame for the shake up. Took me ten minutes, that was easy.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on March 15, 2008, 04:40:49 pm
I can not even get on the tracks now !!! So why was I sending my first protest before these threads started ?? Because like Firko and Wombat and a small no "Tiny" amount of us care!!! So do you mind to get up of your lazy arses ,stretch out your nose picking, butt scratching, cock/pussy wanking fingers and type Now!! Address supplied elsewhere look for it and stop finding piss ant excuses.. Then add your Name or nom de plume here freely because well you have honestly tried. Tim754  You will receive an email back from MA that acknowledges your contribution.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tony T on March 16, 2008, 12:54:14 am
Interesting and pleasing to get a reply, too.
I've also just come back from the 'Monster Trucks' with my boy. I can guarantee that they weren't less than 150 db, probably way more and in the middle of the city at 10.00pm. That jet powered van was radically loud too.
Didn't hear anyone complaining about that noise though......................  ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on March 16, 2008, 10:14:43 am
Tony, I reckon your comment on the Monster Truck noise is absolutely relevant to the whole debate.
More than anything, the hypocracy of this proposed limit is what gets up my nose!
Here's a copy of my reply to another Forum Member who sent me a PM about this issue:

Unfortunately it seems rules and Laws get more strict over time - and not always for the better.
Something like this 96db, once in place, is hardly likely to go back up.
All motorsport is noisy but it's an occasional thing; not like living alongside an Airport!

And if the Powers that be are truly serious, why are F1, Indy Cars, Moto GP and the like allowed to scream on at max noise?
It seems highly unfair and unjust to single out the 'amature sportsmen' of our relatively small branch of motorsport.


And that gets me to wondering - just 'who' exactly is pushing for this noise limit?
Our machines are from a by-gone era and every effort is made to ensure they remain true to that era and in as original form as possible.
So just who is making life so very difficult for our small and enthusiastic branch of motorsport?

Is it the Government?
If so I repeat my claim of hypocracy; how's about concentrating on lowering the serious 24hr noise like aeroplanes and industry and leave the occasional sports people alone.
It is the State and Federal Goverments who allow 'big noise sports' like the cars and bikes as mentioned above.
So why are these events inoculated to noise limits? 
They are modern machines and should be made to comply with our new age concerns.
But they continue to evolve with little if any noise control...
 
But these forms bring in mega bucks; is that it?
VMX is small and non profit?
Who easier to stamp on - and then boast of reducing noise pollution in the on going war for the environment. 

Or is it MA themselves? again, there are far noisier (and with a larger participant number) groups within motorcycling unaffected by this limit.
All respect to MA; I'm sure it's manned by people who love motorcycling in all forms - and it can't be easy juggling the many groups and disciplines and various self serving interests.
Don't be so damn shallow as to allow the Historic/Classic Road Racers a higher noise limit than the VMXers.
For goodness sake, all these machines came from the same factories in the same era!

But seriously fellas, MAN UP! ...as my good friend Michelle would say.
And if it's not MA pushing for the limit - pls shove back even harder on our behalf!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 16, 2008, 01:46:03 pm
story from another forum ===  >

How to beat 99 decibels and Win!!!
   
Click link for story: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=31777

Electric Motorcycle Wins at Dragrace!

only problem on the track might be getting al the cords untwisted
 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Board on March 17, 2008, 04:07:07 pm
Lets keep this subject to the fore.

This is extremely important to the continueing life of Classic MX as we know it.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 17, 2008, 05:08:47 pm
it was a big un last year before the turk trashed the server, i rember posting about it back then, so its been an ongoing saga, but it is at least gaining momentum again.............
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on March 17, 2008, 10:22:38 pm
Hi Guys
I have sent my second letter to MA on the subject only this time direct to the Board of Directors. I have strongly voiced my concerns as to the uncertainty of the Tas event and have asked MA to afford Tas Scramble club a relaxation of the 96db rule as it stands and allow 102db for this event.

As you may or may not know MA will have a noise meter available to CD5 for those interested in getting a picture of how loud you bike, no penalty just for info only. I am going to the CMX Nationals and will be taking my sound meter (pending the OK from the club) and my plan is to conduct a bit of an independent study of the real picture with the view of arguing to MA that there should be a permanate consideration to 102db for VMX. The testing will not be part of any official program but is relevant in determining the future and will make the first data base on the subject.

The hope is that we (the riders) will be successful in arguing the 102db issue away but there is a need to at least attempt to address this issue with your bike, the old straight thru on the AJS is making way for a muffler in the Tanner house and I still think that even at 102db some bikes will struggle to get close. All I'm suggesting is that eventually we are going to have to deal with it - 102 is achievable and 96 not and there is a responsibility with all of us to make a difference if we are to make our case.

211
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 25, 2008, 12:39:28 pm
For what its worth the AMA has pushed back to 99 DBA - there is no reason why MA should be enforcing the 96DBA even on the moderns.  Reality is folks who dont want bikes dont want bikes no matter what the DB is, any how this is where they are goiing for 08 /09 also of note MA should be adopting the 3 stage system for non comlience to ensure rider numbers for the promoters is not effected on race day.

SUBJECT: AMA Sports Dirt Track Sound Enforcement

Sound continues to be a concern for AMA Racing. There is a concerted effort to reduce and
enforce sound limits in AMA Pro Racing disciplines. The Supercross and Motocross disciplines are
enforced to 99 dB/A. The Supermoto sound limits will be enforced to 101 dB/A for the 2008
season. There will be testing this year for AMA Pro Flat Track.

The 2008 AMA Sports Rulebook states that sound testing is optional and a promoter responsibility,
it also states that the promoter may impose penalties for non compliance. It is understood that
compliance with this rule is not a simple process for the dirt track community as in many cases
stock frames are not used and exhaust systems require fabrication. The AMA will be enforcing
sound limits at the AMA Dirt Track Grand Championships and will be strongly encouraging
promoters to use the same format.

The 2008 AMA Dirt Track Grand Championships will use the following criteria for enforcement:

99 dB/A - requirement per the 2008 rulebook
up to 100.5 dB/A - verbal warning (based on the variance per the J1287 test procedure)

up to 103 dB/A - written warning

over 103 dB/A - required to modify and retest


I have been pushing this since last year and just noted from you post Timbo you say MA will acknowledge your emails ? i have never recieved a response from any MA rep including that R martin listed above i (and i have sent him at least 3 emails and cut and pastes)

How do we find out what the situation is currently as in where on the table is it now ?  when does it hit the agenda and do they have enough informed info to make a descion ? 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on March 25, 2008, 02:38:14 pm
All seven I have sent have been acknowledged :) Don't know the world hates ya Freaky......... ??? Tim
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 25, 2008, 03:00:04 pm
yep thats what i was begining to think, maybe you have the gift.

 you got 'the shinning.'

HEy do we know if they have plenty of ammo for the meeting tomorrow on this subject and is it high on the agenda ?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 26, 2008, 12:56:03 pm
woops i retract that i actually just got one, thanx ross :O)

Good Morning Kerry (or should I say Freakshow),
 
Thanks for the email which will be discussed by the MA Board at their meeting today.
 
MA received 25 objections to the 96dbA ruling. I had thought there would have been more than this.
 
MA will release the decisions of the Board when approved.
 
Regards,
 
Ross Martin
Motorcycling Australia
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on March 26, 2008, 04:26:08 pm
25 objections?! Wow, guts effort... ::)

Just maybe we made too big a deal of it?
Maybe we assumed the VMXers would be against the new rule?
Maybe everyone else is happy to bend over and comply?
But that's Democracy; let's wait and see.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tony T on March 26, 2008, 06:32:44 pm
There are 411 members on this forum alone and only 25 objections.
Even if you're like me and don't get to many events, I want those events to still be there when I do get time, and for the sport to grow.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on March 26, 2008, 08:24:15 pm
25 ! Well Well.... Personal thought, That is as forked as 96 decibels. No cheers today to all that cannot even lift a finger and type on the keyboard if front of your red faces, Shit we even gave you the address. You lazy ****s  Tim754
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: gorby on March 26, 2008, 08:27:27 pm
There must only be 25 people like me that thought the 96db level was too restrictive ???

pretty pisspoor response to what seemed like a big issue.

How can our representatives on the MA try to get a rule changed with so few objectors.

Looks like everybody else is happy to try and muffle their bikes.

Well,as I see it,if you did not object,then you must be happy,so don't bother whinging when you get pinged >:(
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: huskyrider78 on March 26, 2008, 09:00:50 pm
It's a two-way street.

I contacted MVIC to try and get them to provide information to our club on having all the bikes tested at one of our practice days (either supplying a tester or telling me where we could source one to use ourselves).
I mentioned that we were concerned of the impact and also that it was an important issue esp with the Nationals coming up.

2 emails and 2 phone calls went unanswered.

Managed to cash my membership cheque same day though.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on March 26, 2008, 11:22:51 pm
You know, I'm not the least bit surprised that MA only got 25 objections to the 96db proposal. We're dealing with the exact same people that have to be begged to enter a meeting, are crying out for new classes but don't even support the ones we've got and who would rather lay shit on each others bikes on this forum than do something positive for our sports future. The cyber racer lives on while another nail gets hammered into the VMX coffin.  25/411 is a piss poor effort and we should all be ashamed.

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 27, 2008, 12:31:02 am
well it went to the board today so if its passed to amend it wont be thanks to the other 380 or so idlers out there.   :'(

5 stars to the 25 though, least you tried.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GD66 on March 27, 2008, 07:18:49 pm
 Ease up a tad there, lads. I sent one, and so did our club. But, as pointed out at our club meeting, the submission sent by the club represents 85 members, so it's not quite as bleak as you imply. Still a less than impressive response, all the same.  I questioned the lack of lead time that such submissions normally receive, and my reply from Ross Martin indicated that the introduction of the 96db limit for 2008, was included in the 2007 MoMS, so the year's intro time has been upheld. So guess what, it's not news ! My bottom line was based upon the fact that we have seen NO testing to support the necessity for a noise reduction, but I fear all these submissions will be too little, too late, and as usual, some slimeball with an agenda has got his way once again....
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on March 27, 2008, 08:07:44 pm
You know, maybe I am just not very alert or switched on, but I really wasn't aware that there was some MA meeting this week that offered an opportunity to do something about it. I have followed this thread, perhaps not in obsessive detail, but enough to know the sound rule is a big issue.

I had no foreknowledge that the rule was coming in for 2008, I don't believe I ever got a letter from MA, my local club, my vintage club, or any of the actual representatives that the rule was coming in, and I don't really read the MoMS. For that matter, I have never been informed of any rule changes in 2008.

What is the mechanism? Is there something in the MoMS that informs of proposed rule changes? What is the avenue for doing something about amendments that we may be opposed to?

What was the MA meeting that everyone is referring to, and how much of an opportunity was there to really make a difference?

If as I was led to believe our (elected?) representatives like Mark and David and so on were working behind the scenes, surely they speak for a lot more than the 25 who did write in? Why does there need to be some huge active swell of dissent? Isn't there a formal avenue or process whereby the wishes of the majority are represented? Is the way that MA works that they do what they like unless everyone in Australia forms a lynch mob and hangs them from the nearest post?

I guess I should have really taken a lot more notice. If I had twigged that this meeting was so critical, I'd have created a full on poll system here on OzVMX, got everyone to vote and sent the results off to MA. I can still do it if it would help.

Finally, I am not having a go at anyone and I am just as guilty as everyone of not doing enough in this instance. But I really just didn't realise that something actually *could* be done. I sort of gathered that there was work on behind the scenes to make a change and that our letters might help that along.

By the way, I did write in, though not until the last minute - Monday AM...

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 27, 2008, 08:21:23 pm
YEp last year greame we razed it here  again on ypour old forums and made a big deal about it then as coming in the rules for 2008, im not sure what else we have to do to do explain it to folks, the rule is in right now, we are trying to get it changed, thats what the represetations where all about, guys like 211 and fbc are working behind the scene in there respective areas but we where trying to get it higher up on the agenda.  im just confused as to why everyone is building all these bikes , because once they get the testing kits out there your are screwed, you just havent seen it enforced as such cause MA are setting up and training folkis, what brought it to the head again was it will be enforced at the national meets so unless you can be sure your under 96DB best you buy a bloody big can for it as you might spend your time in the pits full stop once they get the testers up to speed, tassie is a long way and $$ if your just hopig youll get through.  What we wanted was a saftey blanket so everyone could be sure they willk be riding not parked, and lining VMX up with the HIstoric road racing at 102 db would give us a fair chance to self correct.

Forget tyre widths or rivetts - SOmeone at 96 dbcould even protest your position if you cant make the DB level ?

I just figure know most guys are to old to race and are building all this stuff for garage queens.

Im sure it will work its way out in the wash  eventually but it might be a painful ride till its fixed.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on March 27, 2008, 08:23:08 pm
Somewhere throughout this discussion I asked the question 'just who is pushing for this noise reduction?'.
Can anyone shed light on this? I'm serious; where has it come from? Somebody, somebody, anybody??!!
Some of the Forum members are very well connected as the saying goes; who started this ball rolling - someone must know?
And this particular quote from Graeme struck a chord with me:

What is the mechanism? Is there something in the MoMS that informs of proposed rule changes? What is the avenue for doing something about amendments that we may be opposed to?

What was the MA meeting that everyone is referring to, and how much of an opportunity was there to really make a difference?

If as I was led to believe our (elected?) representatives like Mark and David and so on were working behind the scenes, surely they speak for a lot more than the 25 who did write in? Why does there need to be some huge active swell of dissent? Isn't there a formal avenue or process whereby the wishes of the majority are represented? Is the way that MA works that they do what they like unless everyone in Australia forms a lynch mob and hangs them from the nearest post?



Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on March 27, 2008, 08:40:50 pm
I must have overlooked that thread in the old forum, or just not taken enough notice. I suppose I just assumed that 'they' would take care of it? I have to admit that I tend to avoid anything relating to rules and administration cos that sort of stuff makes me feel ill.

But getting back to the matter at hand right now. What was that meeting this week? Why is it so critical? The comment from 211 a little while back, or was it Mark A, indicated that they were working on things and that an announcement might be made about changes for the Tassie Nats. So is that not the case?

And who is so hellbent on having vintage dirtbikes conform to an unrealistic 96dB? Why is it so hard to achieve parity with an entirely comparable situation, that of historic road racing (incidentally always going to be louder than dirtbikes cos they don't spend much time not at WFO)?

If a difference can be made, why is it so dependent on this meeting of a day or so ago? If MA need a real show of force, then  asking people to write in is unlikely to work. But I guarantee a poll on here would get plenty of support. But again how much does that mean? What does MA really need to make changes? I would have thought if the riders representatives put forward the riders opinion that should be enough? Or do MA require some sort of members vote to be able to assess how serious the reps opinions are? I think it all sounds pretty amateurish to be honest.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Nathan S on March 27, 2008, 10:24:44 pm
For better or for worse, I didn't submit anything. The whole thing is (was?) far too abstract for me. Here's why:

1. The old noise limit was 'never' tested, so why will this change for the new limit?

2. If 96dB really is as unworkable as we're told, how many abandoned VMX meetings will it take before MA realises this and reconsiders? If it really is as bad as we're told, then we'll get a lot more than one shot at getting it right.

3. I have no idea how loud a 96dB bike is. There's no way I can honestly say that an enforced 96dB limit will be the death of our sport - I'm not saying it won't be a problem, but nor will I put my name to anything that says it will be a disaster.
Through all the pages of discussion on this topic, I don't recall seeing any examples of bikes that are acceptable (or unacceptable) - no comments like "my stock '74 CR125 blew 103dB even with a freshly repacked muffler".... Nobody saying "I've tried all of the tricks, but I can't get the YZ250E under 99dB".

Like I said, it all seems too abstract. I'm sure I'm not alone among the hand-sitters in this regard. Personally, I'm keen to see what happens at CD5 - and I am dead keen to have my bikes tested there.
Then, armed with some real-world knowledge of the topic, I'll feel comfortable forming an opinion stronger than my current wary feeling.

 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: oz555ktm on March 27, 2008, 10:56:43 pm
Nathan My Friend ACT has been 96db for the last 6 to 8 years
that why we have so much to do with the EPA.

That why we have a Noise meter test spot .
Thats why we move the start to stop noise going to the Rigeway homes .
That's why Dirt track has a dirt bank all the way around .
I could go on .

We work with the EPA .
We have Noise Credits .
Go over and we loose points and you don't get them back .

The ACT Runs Old Bikes . With out any problem

Noise has been a thing for years .we all have been told to keep our
bike quiet in the bush and ABD and trail & Track all told us .

Racers know to Pack mufflers as you loose power with a unpacked Muffler.

and 4 strokes Loud dose not mean that it is Fast . It Just sounds that way.

SO when NSW and QLD and VIC was 103 the ACT was 96db because the ACT Governments EPA made it that way.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on March 27, 2008, 11:10:40 pm
Nathan, one of my concerns is that it's all about to change - and for no good or even relevant reason.
I understand it would be a rare VMX bike that would come in under 100db from the Factory.
We're under threat of modifying all VMX bikes to a standard they've never had to comply with.

For your point # 2 I'm not so sure a VMX 'strike' would overly concern MA.
I might be wrong, but isn't VMX a reasonably small part of the whole motorcycling spectrum under the MA control?
We'd be the ones not able to ride the bikes.
I'm thinking of those suggestions to boycott fuel because prices are getting too high; a nice thought but who is seriously going to do it and for how long?

Keeping bikes in their original condition is a large part of the 'fun'.
I don't want a silencer the size of a 10 litre bucket tacked onto the pipe.
That's OK for dungers and bitsas, but look at the effort the majority go to chasing swap meets and Global e-bay deals to get that hard to find period 'Suzuki foot peg'.
These machines are a part of motorcycling history and they should maintain their integrity.

   
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Nathan S on March 27, 2008, 11:48:09 pm
Fair points Wombat.

I wasn't suggesting a strike, but was suggesting that if the new limit is enforced and most/every bike fails, then it's gonna be bad news for the rider, the clubs and MA.
Its one thing for one or two bikes per meeting to be knocked back, but if 70% are knocked back, then it will be very clear that the rules are unreasonable - particularly if a lot of those bikes are in good, unmodified condition.

CAMS is much less competitor friendly than MA, and even they will back down from a dumb rule if it hurts their bottom line. I am naive to think MA wouldn't do the same?



Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mboddy on March 28, 2008, 06:32:22 am
We need some discussion on what we need to do to get our bikes under the limit.
For example:
Long aluminium silencers are better than steel or carbon fibre.
The stinger can be extended back into the body of the 2stroke expansion chamber.
Supertrap silencer rings can be added to the end of the alloy silencer to take the bite out of the sound.
Rubber plugs between the cylinder and head fins can take out the ringing.
Countershaft sprockets with the rubber lips to cushion the chain can reduce chain noise.
Thick rubber blocks inside the countershaft sprocket cover.

Can we wrap the exhaust pipe in something?
Should we be getting GMC to make us thicker walled pipes?

What other suggestions do you guys have? 


Does anyone else have any suggestions?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on March 29, 2008, 08:52:21 am
These are the Parliamentry Counsel office / government regulations from what i read, Protection of the Environment Operations (Noise Control) Regulation 2008 passed february 2008 ,Schedule 1 Prescribed noise levels for types of motor vehicles so why are we at 96db ???


http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/subordleg+40+2008+sch.1+0+N

This gives a good read and makes things clearer ::)
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/viewtop/inforce/subordleg+40+2008+pt.1-sec.1+0+N

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on March 29, 2008, 09:05:04 am
Had a quick browse, doesn't this only apply to road going vehicles? The only bit that I saw that set a noise limit suggested the limit for bikes is 100dB (ie not built for use on a road after 1984). Even this law seems to support the idea that a Pre 1985 motorcycle is not expected to meet a 96dB limit.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on March 29, 2008, 09:13:46 am
Even this law seems to support the idea that a Pre 1985 motorcycle is not expected to meet a 96dB limit.

(d)  for any other motor cycle—100 dB(A). in this instance, legislation is open to interpretation

Thats the point, dont know if applies to road going vehicles but wouldnt make much sense to have louder on road than off road vehicles, question is if parliament allows 100db , why not MA, has MA set the 96db level from current legislation or from what they feel would be acceptable for future of motorcycling ???

As none of us are privvy to what goes on behind closed doors at MA, where would one go to find out who was the governing body who made the decision to apply the 96db rule and on what basis it was made,

I Believe Twist and Shouts first post on this thread to be correct answer and therefore MOMS regs may be possibly wrong because government legislation is the ruling body to MA and each individual state
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on March 29, 2008, 12:33:09 pm
As none of us are privvy to what goes on behind closed doors at MA, where would one go to find out who was the governing body who made the decision to apply the 96db rule and on what basis it was made,
Yes pls!!!
A couple of the Board Members are on this Forum are they not?
Can you please advise where this ruling has come from?
Where did it begin - who moved the motion or tabled the suggestion?
Is this a fair question or must I write a letter to MA; can anyone advise?

Don't get me wrong, I have no evil intent to hunt anyone down...
But motions like this have a beginning - and someone somewhere moved a motion to discuss this matter and that motion was seconded.
I've only recently committed to this sport, and like everyone else I have a fair lump of money tied into it.

If the sport is about to be tipped upside down, shaken and dropped on its head, I think asking for a reason is a fair and just thing to do.
How - and more importantly why, did this ball get rolling?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rossvickicampbell on March 29, 2008, 01:46:05 pm
Nathan - well said - I dont know whether my bikes are loud or not - I regularly repack my GMC pipe and it seems OK but is that what I am used to?  I also asked the question which didn't get answered (and it maybe scaring people off from going to Tassie) - if you do get pinged do you get a warning such as the AMA rules quoted?  I was told this is the case.  Both my bikes are as they came from the shop in their time - I cant do much else but I also cant get them checked (in WA) at CD5 to see if I am OK for Tassie - if they go over do I get a warning first time out?

Would be nice to know - also would be nice to know the result of our effort to appeal the ruling - how long before that comes out?

thanks

Rossco
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Noel on March 29, 2008, 06:34:20 pm
Found this in the latest news letter,
no detail

http://www.ma.org.au/Folders/MA/News/March2008/DRAFT_ENVIRONMENTAL_SUSTAINABILITY_POLICY.pdf
http://www.ma.org.au/Folders/MA/News/March2008/DRAFTNational_Environmental_Code_and_Management_Plan_2_.pdf
Noel
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: squirtmoto on March 29, 2008, 08:59:45 pm
I always have a chuckle about noise testing VMX bikes after this incident. ::)
I was lining up at the gate for the first moto of the last round of the 1999 Thunder-X
series, when one of the scrutineering "Natzies" pulled me back off the line to noise check my YZ465H >:(
At that stage we had about 2min before the gate drop (this was a ploy at the time as a local rider was second to me in the points and if my bike failed it would give him enough points to beat me)
So the test began. It was 98dba at the muffler and 106dba at the barrel  :D :D :D
Nothing in the rules about engine noise ;) The whole exercise made me pretty mad and the gate virtually
droped as I gated, hole-shot and checked out!!! ::)
Turned out to be a great day for me as I went 1-1-1.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on March 30, 2008, 10:21:36 am
Noel, thank you very much for those two links as they clearly state the MA enviromental policy (albeit in draft form).
Knowing 'why' something is happening certainly takes away from the mystery and assists in the understanding.

I find interesting this statement from the MA environmental policy which reads:
MA will seek to establish at all times the highest enviromental standards during the organisation of motorcycle events at all levels and will promote enviromental education among all motorcycle participants. MA will do so in close co-operation and assistance from the SCB's, clubs and organisations representing the motorcycle industry and riders.

This part in particular: MA....in close co-operation and assistance from.....clubs....representing.....riders.
Has this happened? Have we had the stated close co-operation with riders?
Or is election to 'the Board' seen as being handed a mandate to change any and all Laws by way of a meeting of this small group of people.

Policy change of this magnitude (noise levels) should not be left in the hands of the few.
It should be open to debate and discussed with those it will directly affect; we the sweaty majority - the members.
And let's not kid ourselves, several pages on this forum IS NOT opening the discussion to general debate.
Not every crusty old VMXer owns a computer or participates on this websites forum.

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on March 31, 2008, 08:16:02 pm
News just in from my deep throat within MA. It appears that today MA have disregarded the 'huge' torrent of protest and have approved the 96db sound limit for Classic Motocross.

My informant also informed me that MA will not be sending a sound measuring officer to the Australian Classic Motocross Championships in Tasmania in June which means that the 96db limit won't be enforced at that particular event.
Of course, the above information is strictly 'off the record' and not official but I'm pretty sure it's on the money.

Once again the apathy of the vintage motocross fraternity has assisted MA to put another unjust restriction on our sport. I can't believe that our Classic Road Racing brothers can enjoy the 'luxury' of a 102db limit while we are restricted to a difficult to achieve 96db. The decision makers withing MA have got it terribly wrong but we're stuck with it from here on in as these decisions are rarely reversed.

Thanks to the dedicated and concerned VMXers who made the effort to fight this bit of restrictve legislation. What a shame we couldn't convince the 'silent majority' of the importance that a protest email held.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on March 31, 2008, 08:44:26 pm
That is bad news alright. Again though I reiterate my points made earlier. I just don't get it. Why should a pile of emails from people who happen to read this forum be the major requirement to have this rule examined for its validity and usefulness and repealed? What if there was no OzVMX forum? How would riders have known that it was necessary to complain, or even that a meeting was being held? I'm sorry, but while I sympathise with your feelings Firko, I think the whole thing is bullshit.

Can someone (Mark or Dave or someone) please tell me what this meeting was that was just held, why it was so critical, and why there is no avenue for appeal?

I can't believe that an organisation aimed at administering this sport doesn't have a formal channel for debate, discussion, review and so on to which riders have access - fair and reasonable access. Not have it left to if they may have happened to have heard about it on some forum and decided to write in an email.

Tell you what, I'm happy to have the fight if someone can give me some insight in how. I will even go read the rulebook, but maybe it's time we got serious on this. I think it's a joke.

By the way, I did email MA (or Ross Martin) directly and got no acknowledgement. And where's the communication to members about this apparent decision?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Nathan S on March 31, 2008, 08:53:39 pm
Maybe - just maybe - the powers-that-be have no intention of ever enforcing this rule for VMX, and it exists purely to placate some outside influences?

Let's face it, if they're not sending someone down to this year's VMX Nationals, then they're not serious about it. ::)

Plus what Graeme said.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tony T on March 31, 2008, 09:00:43 pm
For me, it's more than just the physical 96db limit.
It's the fact that MA have place a restriction on an easy target and not across the board.
If they were truly serious about enviornmental issues, this should be applied across all facets of motorcycle sport, which is what I stated in my email to them. I'd like that question answered so I think I'll send another letter asking just that.
If there is any way our voice can still be heard on this issue, count me in to have another go.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GD66 on March 31, 2008, 09:04:29 pm
 Sorry I can't shed any light on why, Graeme, but Ross Martin indicated in his reply to my email that there was an indication in the 2007 MoMS that the 96db limit would be invoked in 2008. Rules of this nature, like the ribbed Quaife gearbox ban, and the conical hub drama that between them tore the arse out of historic roadracing in 1998, are only ever instituted by somebody with an agenda, because logically nobody would wish to complicate their lives trying to implement such an unfeasible and impractical rule. I'd say it's a kneejerk reaction, as part of the MA effort to be seen to be green, as outlined earlier in the thread. But FFS, they haven't tested, and it appears they won't be testing much, if at all, in the future. So hopefully, it's only window dressing. and if we sit quietly, in the fullness of time the focus will fade and those in the corridors of power will focus on something else to pontificate about to justify their position/ego. And if it all gets too hard, too political, too bureaucratic, I would remind people again, that vmx in NZ runs very successfully without being involved with clubs, and has no controlling body. Always worth remembering.... ;)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on March 31, 2008, 09:45:45 pm
In reality, no matter how many protest emails or letters were sent to MA, it probably wouldn't have changed a thing. Once the process to implement such legislation has started, there is little chance of influencing the outcome by petition, letter or email. However if the full force of the VMX community had protested the proposal at least MA would have seen that there is a solid groundforce of politically active VMX participants that are prepared to fight for what's right.
The old 'United we stand, divided we fall' political war cry rings true.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on March 31, 2008, 09:46:17 pm
Sorry to hear the news as well, I can assure the readers that the commission put together a pretty strong letter to the board of MA outlining the concerns of the riders and this was in conjunction with quite a lot of emails from the riders as well.

I as yet have had no news from MA of the decision so dont be premature in acceptance of rumour just yet. Lets hope that its incorrect.

I think we need to hear the confirmation when it comes but that said I really feel that there will have to be some effort to be seen to drop the DB of your bike; lets not get to a point where we have noise testing (like CD5 for example) and loose all or any arguement we may have to have our case heard by having a really loud bike there. In fact if you have your bike tested make sure you have done something about noise or dont have you bike tested.MA WILL BE THERE!!!!!

211
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on March 31, 2008, 10:09:48 pm
Dave..when you say make sure you have done something, could that be defined as simply having your original muffler repacked (which is not possible in some instances i.e. OEM RM series) or, does it mean we'd have to fit something like an Answer or DG or GMC for that matter? Would fitting a directional tail pipe be defined as 'something'? I believe the new limit should stick but I also believe there should have been a transitional period where testing is done and written notice given but the bike not excluded from said event 'if obviously 'something' been done in an attempt to quieten the bike' The bike however will be excluded from   further events unless it conforms. This is what I reckon we should have asked for..the new limit will stay so we're flogging a dead horse there  :-\ my 2 cents..I go back to my needle craft now  :P 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on March 31, 2008, 10:25:00 pm
Doc

I dont know, I guess that the best answer is to make sure that you have done something - anything, if we turn up there without any attempt and the guy with the really loud thing is the one that gets noticed its a problem in my view. We should and will still argue the case for 102db but in saying that its going to be hard to argue it if there are bikes at 110db running around having made no attempt to lessen the DB.

Show that muffler some love and its going to love you back.

211
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Lozza on March 31, 2008, 10:29:24 pm
I find all the whinging hard to believe as a friend here in Newcastle managed to get an old CZ 380 down to 88dB.Most will find as mentioned the mechanical noise from undamped cylinder fins(even cranks past rebuild date) can contribute significantly to the dB output. There is even a download out there that will help you pass dB tests.Jet slightly rich, proper packing, hole size, rubber fin dampers, an exit piece to angle noise downward is all very simple stuff and most of which is reversable ::).As stated before some dicking round will have you pass the test and not loose and more likely gain HP. 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on March 31, 2008, 11:09:47 pm
well i like to whine lozza, cause i dont have the time or inclination to fuc about building pipes , rejetting or otherwise spending all my time getting technical on a 34 yr old bike i should be able to enjoy as it is.  I dont care if you mate spent 10 years and has 5 enginerring degrees and can make his CZ 50 Db, i DONT HAVE THE TiME OR INCLINATION TO SCREW AROUND REMAKING A PIPE OR SPENDIN TIME OR MONEY TO REMODEL A BIKE TO FIT NOISE REGS.

Guys -IF you dont think they will be stepping up testing why have MA been training up operators in all states and buying up and shipping out testing equiptment ? if you thnk this is just going away and is window dressing you need to get you head out the sand.  We had test set up when i was road racing in the 90s so its just catching up and getting organised at wider meets.  its a pain in the arse for everyone, self regulation should have been moved in for up to 102db.

As for sneaking it through comments ? > wtf this was in 2007 MOMS and ealier indicating the changes in DB ratings as a rule, does anyone actually read the manuals or does everyone just put them back on the shelf and go into there own little world.  Based on what i have heard your bike can be up to 5db out at any time even if you get under the magical 96bd at one event you may not be at the next test, it can and does vary.   As far as your vioce its you Dirt track and MX MA reps from your clubs and state levels that meet to discuss and lobby you veiws, as you have never brought it up they would have been none the wiser it was an issue and would in effect probaly voted it in as they had no idea of the impact,  you need to lobby you club reps and state reps to lobby back up the food chain, classic vmx return 2 thirds of stuff all to MA so your not even a blip on the radar, everything is paid by the FIM cash injection from 1 round a year, everyting else is pennies, you could stop all vintage racing and i dot think MA would even notice, it would probally let them concetrate on there rider up right programs to get more kids involved.

Down with the dicking around and up with the DB to a normal level, i say
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Lozza on March 31, 2008, 11:44:21 pm
Get over it Freaky and I don't f^*k around YOU F*^K around pointlessly railing against the noise regs, fix the noise, ride on simple init.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rossvickicampbell on April 01, 2008, 12:13:46 am
even though I asked a couple of times (and these forums are where I get most of my info from) there were no answers to my question regards warnings for failing noise tests.

Anyway - have just spent the last God knows how long on a very slow internet connection checking out MA and found this:

12.10.4.4  - No person may compete in any event on a machine where noise emissions exceed the prescribed levels.

So I dont think there will be any warnings - or have I read it wrong.  Makes me start to think twice about going to Tassie - as others have said long way to go to not get a ride?

Rossco
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Yamaboy on April 01, 2008, 11:02:06 am
The thing I can't understand is that MA in their wisdom has given Classic Road Racing 102db yet VMX got shafted with 96db. I'd like to examine the criteria that inspired THAT piece of legislation. I just don't understand it.

Freaky..I know that you are an excitable boy and are keen on this subject but could you please slow down and double check your posts for spelling and grammar mistakes before you post them. Your last post is extremely difficult to understand, I had to read it 3 times before in made any sense. I'm sure you can spell better than your posts show.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 01, 2008, 11:52:47 am
im just being kriptic   ;D

ok I blame the spell checker. 

ok....ok i admit it im just lazy, sometimes i have so many windows open on differant forums, applications and are replying to so many things in a momentry window of time it gets too hard. 

Geeze you should hear me speak, i talk fast most folk cant understand me.   

Sorry bout that i just get on a roll and im onto the next thing.

if you notice most of my post are edited because i have pushed enter on the keyboard before i have even looked up ( work habit) ill try to keep it real, and at least use the spell checker a little more.

Soz.

P.S lozz i have nothing to add other than to say than you must remeber there are at least 50% of the riders out there who dont have your knowledge or skill set, its those folks like me who dont want to fuc about doing all this work on 5 or more bikes just to ride them at a local race meet, if you make it too hard and too much of an effort then they just fade away from the sport and so does the sport.   Its a very ridgit rule and based on your comments you may be the only one onthe start line so you become the winner of one, big deal thats not a competion its attrition.

Think about it from a wider mind set lozz, if folks cant be bothered to put in an email or speak to there MA rep about it, do you really think they will put in the time and money to build a quieter motor and pipe ?   NOPE, attrition is coming unless they loosen up the rules  :O)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 01, 2008, 12:27:19 pm
bottom line is we all have to make some sort of effort to silence our bikes before the govt. does it for us through legislature. What we could have is a posting of ideas and methods used by other that will cut noise emissions. Kinda like a huge test bed. It's all well and good to complain and I too do not like the idea of modifying stock items but it's either this or no ride. After riding noisy bikes for many years it's actually a nice change to ride something a little quieter :) my TM which I feel pretty certain will pass is reasonably quiet simply from the fresh packing in the muffler. Engine noise is a biggy with the air cooled 2 smokers but  watercooled models will need little attention in this department. I remember years ago to wrap the pipe in heatproof wadding was considered noise deadening..lets hope it never comes to that! I feel we have to go with the flow and comply. No if's no but's no exclusions no excuses and no snivelling  :-X ;)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 01, 2008, 02:49:08 pm
I might put a fairing on the Maico and claim it's a road racer slumming it in the dirt for the day.
They're allowed bigger noise apparently.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 01, 2008, 02:53:59 pm
hey Vmx247, like the old elf 26 additive probally be banned too id say. Still a modern yamaha leaves the shop at 98 db so we have been pushed harder than most as easy targets, except for the half time moster truck which at a zillion decibels still get a run at any level at any meeting and the EPA guy dont even blink, same guy standing there with the meter measureing crowd noise.

Meh........... lets see where it goes.  who knows it could be worse, there was talk 2 strokes would be banned due the oil emissions. i think some tree huggers just need to show action and progress on paper to get there stars, pity they cant deal with the real issues like cars, plane , trains and automobile, that pump out the noise and pollutants at levels.

Problem with being in a civilised country is you all get given a concious and expected to lead, unlike the other 60% of the globe who do the dumping, burning and trashing  ::)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 01, 2008, 04:18:16 pm
i had being in the 40% its tuff.  :OP
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on April 01, 2008, 05:03:27 pm
I agree with Doc and others that now Australia has signed the Kyoto agreement Rudd and other leaders have to be seen to be doing something to lower carbon emissions and to reduce other polutants including noise. Forgetting motorcycles for a moment and thinking as Joe Citizen, this can only be a good thing for Mother Earth.

My complaint isn't so much about the severe 96db limits imposed on the VMX community but about the inequality of the decision. If the 96db limit had been a blanket coverage over all of the racing diciplines I would have accepted it and got on with the job of getting my bikes to comply. But when the classic road racing fraternity get to keep their 102db limit while we are forced to comply with a 96db it reeks of inequality to the point that one would have to question how the committees are comprised and if they are stacked in favour of classic road racing representatives.
It should be either 96db or 102db for all, not one level for one group and another for level for their 'favourites'.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: VMX247 on April 01, 2008, 05:19:00 pm
Maybe they took into consideration the proximity to the spectator
and the amount of spectators to riders at  these different disiplined events.
and yes it has to be fair, if not lobby/talk to your State MA rep.
What are the other reasons behind it all.. ??? ???
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GMC on April 01, 2008, 09:30:07 pm
I don't think spectators would be considered in the decision. Spectators rarely complain about the noise, it's usually local residents.

Noise restrictions aren't new either, they have been around ever since I can remember, and it’s only the decibel level that is changing. I doubt that MA will be doing a witch-hunt at every local club race, it will be complaints from residents/councils that will bring them there.
But if races dropped off because of the new levels I doubt they would care either.

Noise levels are a serious issue. It should not be taken lightly, Loud bikes at tracks have been responsible for track closures & loud bikes in the bush gets noses turned up at us all.
And no I don't make my living from selling mufflers that comply with new restrictions.

But I do sympathise with the fact that it will be hard to quieten down a lot of the older bikes especially Pre 70 type bikes.
CZ twin pipes never had mufflers but I have been making chambers with mufflers for them for about 7 years or so. Feed back suggests that they run better with a short muffler instead of the flat washer welded inside a larger stinger tube. A lot of guys ordered these as they wanted to fly under the radar but I don't know at what level they come in at.
But for a lot of other models, BSA's, Metisses etc. it will be hard to put anything on them that will keep them looking period as most won't have mounting points to hang them from.

I have seen all sorts of arguments put forward about the noise levels.
Bagging the testing procedure doesn't cut it, nor does not repacking your muffler because you can't be bothered. But like many others I too would like to know why it's different for classic road bikes. But then this situation isn't all that new as Off Road events have always been 2nd class as far as MA / ACU have been concerned.

As for submissions, if it weren’t for this forum they probably wouldn't have received any. I too thought about it but never got around to it, one nagging point for me is not knowing exactly what 96 db's is. Yes it's quieter than 102 but its all just numbers that is hard to equate with how most bikes are set up now. I don't get the opportunity to do any testing for noise so I am looking forward to hearing from anyone at CD5 that gets any of my pipes/ mufflers tested. Good, bad or indifferent I would like to know please if any one gets them tested.

Dirt mounds around tracks have been suggested too. They may make a difference at the track but their are at least 2 large dirt mounds known as hills between me & Reg Hunt Park & the sound comes through clearly. I can tell the difference from the road bike howls, which are a further hill away to the modern MXers & the speedway bikes taking off. Although the noise doesn't bother me there are plenty that live closer to the track, including the township itself, although it often depends on the weather.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout) on April 02, 2008, 09:29:10 am
At Fairbairn Park, we suffered for years from a retired guy in a nearby estate who used to complain to the EPA after every raceday about the noise .  The EPA were getting heavier and heavier.  Till we bit the bullet and reconfigured the track layout.  The problem was the startline - exhausts pointed straight toward that estate and you could well hear it for the four seconds when everyone was full noise down the start straight (for like thirty races over the day).  We spent a fortune on earthworks and made a new start area which pointed into the forest instead - voila - no more noise complaints - fan bloody tastic.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 02, 2008, 11:37:46 am
Most ma reps or members at that level firko are old timers, paid workers, these retired riders mostly come from the good ol days of road racing, so thats where the slant will come form without doubt. 

Most other folk equate mx to modern bikes, and would have picked up that to ride a MX on the road the complience plate sits the level at 96DB, they didnt have to think about that one to much, many wouldnt think old mX still exsist thus road racers are the most common denominator there. 

They are just voting for themselves, and thats what they did.  I noticed AMA have pushed DB back out to 98/100 with a penalty system, not a no run policy, so it will be interesting to see if we stay or drift back out as they have.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 02, 2008, 01:30:33 pm
hey now there is a thought, can i produce a carbon credit by planting some trees that offset my noise pollution ? 

as in i plant 10 trees and i get one free round at 102db ?  now there is a MA initiative ! :O0
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Board on April 02, 2008, 01:43:48 pm
Most ma reps or members at that level firko are old timers paid workers, these retired riders mostly come from the good ol days of road racing, so thats where the slant will come form without doubt. 

Most other folk equate mx to modern bikes, and would have picked up that to ride a MX on the road the complience plate sits the level at 96DB, they didnt have to think about that one to much, many wouldnt think old mX still exsist thus road racers are the most common denominator there. 

They are just voting for themselves, and thats what they did.  I noticed AMA have pushed DB back out to 98/100 with a penalty system, not a no run policy, so it will be interesting to see if we stay or drift back out as they have.

Freaky,
I do often wonder about your posts but this one is ridiculous and totally wrong.

1. What "old time" MA people are you talking about that get paid? The only people paid by MA are their office staff. All others are volunteers.
2. What retired road race riders are you talking about? Again there are very few on MA Commissions, committees and the MA Board.
3. MA is certainly aware of Classic MX which is why they will have representation at CD5.
4. I am sure that any "voting" is done even handedly and taking all aspects into account. The facts are that Motorcycle Sport generally is under threat and the biggest complaint is about noise. If the sport does not do something about it we will find that we either have nowhere to race, or are racing under extreme government restrictions.
5. Road Racing generally, including Historic Road Racing has received a higher decibel reading because they race on established tracks that constantly monitor the noise of all competitors. Go to Eastern Creek and look at the Noise Meter that runs, and is monitored all the time vehicles are on the track.
6. 96dbA is here to stay and it is here to stay for the good of our sport generally, not to annoy a minority of CMX whingers who do not want to make changes or move into the 21st century.
Let's all move forward for the good of Motorcycling.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: cyclegod on April 02, 2008, 02:00:50 pm
6. 96dbA is here to stay and it is here to stay for the good of our sport generally, not to annoy a minority of CMX whingers who do not want to make changes or move into the 21st century.
Let's all move forward for the good of Motorcycling.

The whole point of Classic MX IS that it is the sights and sounds of the sixties and seventies, the 96dB rule should go the same way as motorcycle seat belts and airbags as a dumb idea not in keeping with the nature and spirit of the sport and ultimately impracticle
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on April 02, 2008, 02:20:02 pm
Quote
5. Road Racing generally, including Historic Road Racing has received a higher decibel reading because they race on established tracks that constantly monitor the noise of all competitors. Go to Eastern Creek and look at the Noise Meter that runs, and is monitored all the time vehicles are on the track.

Hmmmm.

First up overly noisy bikes do annoy me , anything overly noisy does(specially women ;) ). Now that said if a VMX track constantly monitors every competitor they too can have a higher db rating? Dont make sense to my eyes or ears. Seems that is saying if you have money you can be noisier.

I wonder how the drag racers will get on when someone points a microphone thier way.

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.

George Orwell
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Nathan S on April 02, 2008, 03:09:17 pm

3:So, if I read it right, because road racers ride on a pre determined track they are allowed an extra 6db to play with. What is Barrabool, Broadford, Ravenswood etc, cow paddocks? I would have assumed that because of the comparitive isolation of two of those tracks and the close proximity to the ajacent road course for Broadford that a 102db would be acceptible. Your, or MAs reasoning, makes no sense.

How about looking at things in more general terms: More MX tracks are near houses than road race circuits. The road race circuits usually have far more significant/effective noise-abatement measures.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I saw of Broadford, the road race circuit is tucked behind a big hill, whereas the MX track is basically facing the main access road...

To put it all simply, road race circuits seem to be designed around the understanding that noise is/could be a problem, whereas MX tracks typically are still just cow paddocks when it comes to dealing with noise.



Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 02, 2008, 03:13:14 pm
BORED let me clarify this when i say MA in my case i mean MAsa

My opinion is based solely on my observations on the MASA office here where it has at least 3 PAID office workers ( i know one gets over $50K), plus i know the president is paid and im assuming the other 5 board members get allowances for sure, its all  run as is the board, by one lady who controls everything even the president wont shit without asking her.  The National Office in Melbourne has paid full-time staff as do the SCBs around Australia.

So i beg to differ that my information based on my local knowlegde is infact correct in this instance, regardless of what is published, based on past employees and support staff telling me this, and my contact previously with folks on the panels before they retired or left because of the politix

even after the accident my brain wasnt completely disfuntional and my recollection was the old board previoulsy had older era enthousiasts, who have slowly been replaced by others but most are still either road or old era speedway, or parents/family support staff

this in no way belittles there abilities, but in no way supports the fact they have our best interests at heart.  I have no idea what the rest of MA is doing but i cant be that far off can it ?

Our 5 current board note the following ;
- Riding Observed Trials in 1958 then moved to Speedway (old timer)
- motorcycling since 1949 including Speedway rider and Historic Road Race (old timer and HRR)
-competed in road racing between 1979 and 1990 and HRR since 05  ( HRR)
- mechanic and side car mx ?
- various commitee member and family race support person ?


so i got 3 out of 5 right in either the old timers or HRR catagory, and just guessing the other 2 would have just followed the 96db complience plate theory.

MA is a Federation with seven voting members, comprising State Controlling Bodies (SCB) from all states and territories except the ACT. There is a National Council made up of one delegate from each SCB, and the President. The Council elects four Directors for the Board, which in turn appoints two independent Directors.  THAts not a lot of folks making a decision if the information isnt coming up from the bottom levels as a hard push.  there would be bigger things on the agenda like the FIM complieances and other cash cows and warm fuzzies like women in sport and junior developement at that level

Anyway thats neither here nor there, these rules can still be ammended so the pressure to level the playground can still happen, we still have momentum so i for one will be hammering my local Dirt track MA rep to get this back on the local agenda, cause last time i spoke to my clubs president we would be going NZ style if we have to enforce this rule and results in loosing riders, even the modern 4's in our club wont beable to meet it.  Our new 20 page per minute photcopier in the office is rated at 71db operating noise.

FWIW - I had a test on a pissy little 125cc superlight in 1998 and it failed and it only hummed like a bee, unless the operator was using it wrong, so i do have a clue what 96 sounds like and i would be suprised if a true era racing bike could make it, maybe at idle on a warm motor and a big Can and a flat resonation rev, you might get close but thats a lot of very variation factors, but its not a realitic target for across the board. HEy you can have you 96Db but it should not be so ridgid and be setup on a sliding scale from 102DB, heck id also go on a handicap at 102 to stay in a meeting like back of grid or a delay time start to keep my bike original.

MY overall point has always been keep it realistic and most folks will do there utmost to comply being draconian in enforcing it will be its undoing.    IT needs perspective and i await to see how it is enforced in field before i make a firm judgemnt, but usually rules once they are scribed get locked in and are hard to wind back, but diluted they can be.    

 BEfore you all go off again about 96db is our responsibility... wa wa.. like i keep saying simply make it a target, not an exclusion point. most folk will do what they can where they can, but enforcement has its levels and acceptance.  we are adults how come every other Govt initiative has self regulation ?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tony T on April 02, 2008, 03:27:49 pm
a minority of CMX whingers who do not want to make changes or move into the 21st century.


As a motorcycle enthusiast, the whole point of any classic or vintage motorcycle racing is NOT to move into the 21st century.  ;D So, for me, I want the sport to remain as close as possible to how it was 'in the day' not turn it into a modern meeting with short travel bikes.
Take Goodwood for example, you're not even allowed into the paddock if you're not wearing period clothing. I feel changes that try and take the sport "into the 21st century" detract from the whole vintage experience.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 02, 2008, 03:28:11 pm
A few observations taken from the last few posts.
1: Freakys posts are usually all over the place, ill informed and poorly written. We don't bother trying to correct him as he usually goes off on a rabid blast about old school wankers daring to question his unique slant on the sport. As a newbie, you fell right into his trap Mr Bored.

I like to be referred to as upercase , lower case or all over the place.  

You just need to think faster and read between the lines. But deep down you know my slant rings home ( well if your under 40.)

Anyhow if you cant have a go at me, poor old firko or nathan will kop it  so im taking one for the team :O0
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on April 02, 2008, 04:13:09 pm
Just wanted to confirm that the MA minutes are out and confirm the rumour, there is some work to do to change the situstion, Im guessing that this year we need to be seen to be attending to our current situation and improve the bikes.

Im not suggesting that we stop lobbying MA - quite the reverse, but we still have to work within the rules THIS year.

211
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on April 02, 2008, 04:20:46 pm
Nathan, Nathan, Nathan. Things have been going along so agreeably and then you come along and ruin it all with a silly statement.   The following ......."How about looking at things in more general terms: More MX tracks are near houses than road race circuits. The road race circuits usually have far more significant/effective noise-abatement measures".......indicates that you may need to visit a few more venues. Eastern Creek is in the middle of suburbia, Oran Park is very close to Harrington Park and Cobbity rural communities, Calder is surrounded by suburban sprawl and many other road race circuits live within a cooee of housing. On the other hand, the tracks that Oldy mentioned, Ravrenswood is in a rural setting miles from housing, Barrabool is also miles from housing and on the NSW scene Clarence is miles from Lithgow and housing, Rockley is in Bum F#*K, Nowhere (Sorry Ribbo), Barleigh Ranch is miles rom the nearest house and Crawford River is also in a remote rural setting. Noise abatement isn't a major issue at those venues yet but it would be easily handled if implemented as at the road circuits. There is no reason that 102 db would be a problem at those circuits :-*:-*
 
 
 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 02, 2008, 05:51:31 pm
vmx247, I don't quite get your meaning about where we live and 'do the far away Riders care?'.
I can guess the large majority of the VMXers who "wrote,protested,listened,read,whinged,nagged,email,phoned etc" probably 
live in suburbia.
I have no sage like qualities but I imagine VMX has a cross section similar to the average Australian demographic - and that majority live around the coastline and reside in the suburbs.

For myself, I've posted one or two comments (OK, lots) over the Decibels and Noise emmisions threads and I wrote a letter to MA - and I live a long way from Town on acreage.
And this means I can blat around the back paddock for as long as I like (I think that qualifies as a far away track).
But I'm not quite sure what my location has to do with it.
Can you elaborate?

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: VMX247 on April 02, 2008, 06:11:15 pm
No can't elaborate, like I said it was a blonde moment. ::)
I do know that some riders will just pay the big bucks for a ride and don't give a rats backside about noise issues etc. Shouldnt put people in a box should I. :-\
Like I said before MA must be very aware where they build future tracks.
Who ever built Broadford may have had a future of the suburba growth in his sights and its in a great position.
I think I probably shot myself in the foot enough now.
cheers

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 02, 2008, 07:00:16 pm
Fair point #247, unfortunately the 'burbs creep out to meet the tracks.
Most tracks were originally built waaay out in the donger.
Way out where the noise effects no-one; but then the 'burb's come to visit after several years and they start bitchin' about the noise in 'their' suburb.

I'm only one Lotto ticket away from creating the biggest kick-arse vintage-friendly track in the Country (aren't we all?).
All Vintage bikes are welcome, with pipes and noise as per how they left the Factory.
If we wanted '21st century' ideals we'd all be on moderns - and on a different website.

Isn't that what this sport and this website is about? VINTAGE, look it up!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tony T on April 02, 2008, 07:45:46 pm
Hear, hear Wombat. My sentiments exactly.  ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on April 02, 2008, 08:29:28 pm
One thing I am curious about, and the latest MXA made this point, is how we got 96dB. According to MXA, the change by the AMA to the 98/99db level is actually equivalent to the FIM's 96dB ruling. BUT, the FIM level is measured at a very low RPM. I didn't quite follow that, but I think the point is that the FIM have gone with 96, but their testing requirements are somewhat more lax. The MA requirement is a measurement at around 7000 rpm which is a very high rpm and certainly makes it hard for an old machine to comply.

While I agree we do need to be responsible to a point, the truth is that at any given track there are not many vintage meets. Add in that the perceived noise would be less than for a normal MX given the lower numbers of competitors and generally lower speeds (and hence rpm levels) and I think it becomes a bit of a PC thing to be trying to meet that level. And of course, who really wants to see a whole lot of VMX bikes with bloody great non-original mufflers?

By the way, I do take the point someone made a bit earlier - that this could be a bit of a lip service exercise to make it look good but won't really be policed. On the other hand, if we do make a big deal out of it we may be inviting trouble.

Finally, I agree with Freaky in one respect. If you want to see real pedantry and bloody mindedness, just get old blokes to look after the rules for some hobby/sport/passion they are involved with... The world is full of old bastards who can't get their heads out of their arses.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on April 02, 2008, 08:48:29 pm
The world is full of old bastards who can't get their heads out of their arses.

(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh160/rosco400_photos/head_up_arse.jpg)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on April 02, 2008, 08:58:26 pm
Nearly as good as the Sawtell cartoon from ADB back when GE was tilting at the ACU windmill...
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on April 02, 2008, 10:52:05 pm
And the opposite to bend over backwards to assist in an issue is the Anal Cranial genuflect. :o

On the surface it appears the guys who play in the dirt have the dirty end of the stick and as far as i can dig thats the end i keep picking up and i have to ask myself why?
 Could it be true that bias rules in favour of the road racers just because they have ex racers on the board?

Hmmm jokums razor states.Simplified version. The simpliest answer is often the best. ie: looks like a duck walk like a duck quacks like a duck ...its a duck.

It does appear that the VMX crew do have a hard task ahead of them in complying with the new ruling and a hard task it is .. unless you have a Harley which to my ears always seems to fly under the radar.
 Perhaps VMX or even MX is being targeted  for extinction by the powers that be.

The Bullshit and freakin rules of motocross or any comp riding  is the thing that  kept me away from competetitive riding .  VMX is more relaxed  or perhaps i feel more relaxed but that wont be the case if the rule boys stick their noses in and stuff up a damn good formula .
 A few years ago CAMS were made to pull their collective heads in and listen to protect the sport  and perhaps a few other ..authorities  ... could take a leaf.

Will take a lot of paper to wipe that head clean.. is it your head?

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 090 on April 02, 2008, 11:26:13 pm
I think the db is measured at about 4500 rpm, definately not 7000
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Lozza on April 02, 2008, 11:31:49 pm
Barleigh Ranch has it's perenial whinger's and residents action group otherwise the long proposed road race track and drag strip would already be operating.
I'm fairly certain that 102dB limit for road racing was arrived at because a submission based on  the technical difficulties in achieving a 96 dB limit blah blah blah etc etc etc.
With modern MX having a 96dB limit anyone dispassionately making a decision about a VMX dB limit would read all the "sights and sounds of the past" and "recreating the era" stuff and think these people need  to be dragged into the 21st century.Just my $0.02 ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: fatboyracing on April 03, 2008, 06:45:41 am
Hi Guys,
Firstly as a MA noise tester we will set a few things straight
1. RPM
up to 85cc  8000 rpm
85cc to 125cc 7000 rpm
125cc to 250cc 5000 rpm
251cc to 500cc 4500 rpm
over 500cc 4000 rpm

2. For tests using a type 2 meter the limit is 98.9db as per 12.10.3.3 of 2008 GCRs
Most testers are using type 2 meters.

We need to start doing some work to get our bikes down to comply. It is no point in doing nothing and hoping it will go away. The rule for 2008 will stay at 96 db and will not change.
Please dont stop lobbing MA as I did by sending letters as I think that the more people we get to send letters and make calls to the MA board members the more chance we can get them to have another look next year.

I was in Melbourne a week ago for a MA council meeting and I spoke with the board and the CEO of MA about the new limit and I got the impresion that ALL forms of racing will be the same level next year.

I have a lot to do with MA and I dont think that the comment about them being all old crusty bastards with there head up there arses is fair as the board is lead by the SCBs and if you dont lobby your SCBs when we have a problem then how can the board be blamed for decisions that they make.

I am not on the board but I am counciler for MTAS and I listen to what clubs want and when issues come up I can try to protect the interests of the club involved.

I think that maybe we start a protition about the noise limit and all you riders out there could take a copy to your next club race days and get all members to sign it. If we all do that than put them together and present them to MA than we could perhaps get a truer idea of how many people this decision effects.


Cheers
Shane Fraser
Fatboy Racing
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Graeme M on April 03, 2008, 06:55:27 am
Those noise levels are interesting. Given a 450 MX thumper revs to about 10000 and a 250 probably 12 or more, a 4500 rpm measuring point for the big bore probably has a different effect on noise to a 125 2-stroke at 7000 wouldn't you think?

I agree we need to do something about noise, especially a field of 450 thumpers at full noise (10000 rpm, not 4500) with after market exhausts. But it just doesn't make sense to penalise the old bikes which in many cases will require work to conform, and which are not the norm at any racetrack. That said, I accept that LOCAL noise laws do take precedence. Regardless of anything we say here, if an event at my local track gets measured and goes over, the autorities will take action.

As for crusty old blokes, I didn't say that MA is necessarily composed of such. My observation extends to everything - local bike clubs, VMX forums, flower arranging clubs, persian cat fanciers, you name it. It's a peculiar thing. A generalising stereotype, sure, but true.

I'm still contemplating my RM125M. I cannot bring myself to butcher the stock pipe, and I really want to ride it with that pipe. No easy answer to that one.  Do I have to run my aftermarket pipe? Hmmm...
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: huskyrider78 on April 03, 2008, 12:50:18 pm
So can anyone confirm or deny the rumour going around that the noise level issue will NOT be enforced at the Tassie Nats?

I just want to book my boat ticket. But I'm not going to unless I know I am not going to be knocked back at scrutineering because my vintage motocross bike sounds like it was meant to.

I'm with others - I'm servicing my 30 y.o. Koni shocks because I want my bikes to be vintage so I certainly don't want to F around with pipes and packing to bring them line with 21st centrury red-tape.

If I restore an 1969 MGB - am I going to rip out the dashboard and steering wheel and put in a 2008 airbag so that it meets today standards? No - I just want to drive that 1969 MGB goddammit!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 03, 2008, 01:53:01 pm
Nicely and wisely put Fatboy; you have moderating tones not unlike Martin Luther King!
A timely reminder the people at the top of MA do actually like motorcycles and do their best to keep things humming along.
I think the petition is a great idea and will certainly put some hefty numbers on the page.

I firmly believe the large majority of VMXers disagree with these current db levels, but not all will get around to writing a letter (as we have seen).

Husky78s analogy of the MGB being brought up to current '21st century' standards (airbag) is exactly what we don't want. And who was it who said we're not into "twin shock moderns"?
They're spot on and I'll say it again, "VINTAGE, look it up!"
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 03, 2008, 04:14:38 pm
As for  persian cat fanciers, you name it. It's a peculiar thing. A generalising stereotype, sure, but true.

IS our persian cat fancier no other than one 414 ?

I like your thinking, you get the petition, we'll get the signitures.  IF nothing else at least by doing so we have done somthing rather than sitting on our hands.  To keep this on the table and front of house. 

I still say 96 should be a target level with 102 db the cut off for the start line perhaps.  FWIW.

Wombat you speak the truth.
Greame finally getting on the same page.
FBC - i knew you where a closet tester, took you a while to fess up though.
Husky - you rock.
247 your blond but at least your cute.

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on April 03, 2008, 04:40:23 pm
I have just recieved the following email from Ross Martin, the Commissions and Committees manager at MA and 'ROSMAR' on this forum. As we have previously noted, it seems that our lobbying for the 96db limit has been unsuccessful. Like it or not, it's now up to us to make sure our bikes conform to the 96db limit. I think the sound monitor guy will be working overtime at CD5.

Mark,

The Board of MA has discussed this subject and has made the following ruling:

 Issue
 Recommended action
 Decision
 
Item for decision: Noise limits for Classic Motocross
 The Classic Motocross Commission asked the MA Board to reinstate the 102dbA sound limit for CMX while the Commission investigation regarding noise is underway.
 Following consideration of the documents supplied the Board decided that the sound limit of 96dbA applies to CMX. The Board recommended that the noise tolerances for testing be noted in the letter to be sent advising of the Board’s decision.
 Thanks,
          Ross Martin

Commissions & Committees Manager

Motorcycling Australia

03 9684 0504

0416 132 150

[email protected]

 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 03, 2008, 04:43:27 pm
Noise tolerance ? or is that max level with no tolerance / - elaborate please ?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on April 03, 2008, 06:18:47 pm
Graeme,
dont butcher the pipe, there are other ways to start to reduce noise and in the short term I feel that we need to make small steps in getting somewhere close to 96db.

Can I suggest that some rubber blocks out of a TS125 for the fins and see what happens, it does make a difference, you will find that the RM muffler will be out of packing and its a real easy job to cut it and re-pack. I was really suprised what a difference re-packing the std TM125 muffler did with no diff to the power.

I think we need to start to make the changes, and at least be seen to take it seriously.

211
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on April 03, 2008, 07:44:18 pm
Right on Dave....As much as I disagree with the 96db limit, it's in now and we have to learn to live with it. It'll be advantageous to our sport if we are seen as a group to be trying to conform to the new limits. If we adopt the stroppy attitude of defying the 96db limit we run a strong risk of MA implementing another even harsher limit in the future. That's not a cop out, it's a reality.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Nathan S on April 03, 2008, 07:58:36 pm
Nathan, Nathan, Nathan. Things have been going along so agreeably and then you come along and ruin it all with a silly statement.   The following ......."How about looking at things in more general terms: More MX tracks are near houses than road race circuits. The road race circuits usually have far more significant/effective noise-abatement measures".......indicates that you may need to visit a few more venues. Eastern Creek is in the middle of suburbia, Oran Park is very close to Harrington Park and Cobbity rural communities, Calder is surrounded by suburban sprawl and many other road race circuits live within a cooee of housing. On the other hand, the tracks that Oldy mentioned, Ravrenswood is in a rural setting miles from housing, Barrabool is also miles from housing and on the NSW scene Clarence is miles from Lithgow and housing, Rockley is in Bum F#*K, Nowhere (Sorry Ribbo), Barleigh Ranch is miles rom the nearest house and Crawford River is also in a remote rural setting. Noise abatement isn't a major issue at those venues yet but it would be easily handled if implemented as at the road circuits. There is no reason that 102 db would be a problem at those circuits :-*:-*
 
 
 


Firko, Firko, Firko,

C'mon, you can do a lot better than that....
My point was (and still is) that on the whole, road race circuits typically make an effort to minimise noise, MX tracks do not.
Of the three road circuits in NSW, only Wakefield Park (which is plonked in the middle of a sheep paddock, beyond the outskirts of a country town) doesn't have significant noise abatement measures in place.

My current take on it all:
1. The rise of modern 4-stroke MX bikes has brought the noise issue back to the forefront.
2. MA realises that something needs to be done.
3. MA also realises that they need to be seen to be doing things.
4. VMX has been swept up in it all, at least on paper.

We can argue the relevance of modern noise limits to VMX until we're blue in the face, but it isn't getting us anywhere. However, if we can be seen to be doing something, then we'll have a lot more leverage (as 211 just alluded).
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: gorby on April 03, 2008, 08:10:59 pm
I think we all know the difference between a muffler that has been repacked and one that has blown all the packing out or carboned up all the perforations in the stinger tube.

If any one has made a proper effort to repack their muffler they shouldn't have too much problem.

The early twostrokes with only a stinger pipe will need a lightweight muffler? and the fourstrokes can be usually toned down with a bit of work.

To turn up at a racemeeting without any muffler or one that is obviously innefficient is not going to help our cause.
We all need to be at least trying to reduce our db.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on April 03, 2008, 08:25:39 pm
Just listened to a brand new CRF250X honda measured at 93db at 4800 rpm, ....................................... now,think of the loudest fart you have done, 1/2 it and that would be pretty close, we will be getting some rude shocks/reality checks at testing :o
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on April 03, 2008, 08:34:47 pm
Done just went out and slipped a Ford muffler over the 60mm collector box on the four into one headers. >:( OK it used to have a curved droupie tail piece but other than that it was straight out otherwise.  But would have passed at 4000 rpm any way ;) It looks poxy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: yzhilly on April 03, 2008, 09:34:12 pm
Hey Tim have ya got one to Fit a YZF400,YZ100K,YZ80K & a CR80 .  I've been politely informed my bikes wont run at the next  cross country without some muffler work . So i'm goin to make some diffusers to point to the ground . I've already repacked 2 of them and they didnt pass. THE YZF400 with a stock muffler repacked and the YZ80 with a large aftermarket repacked still didnt pass.????
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mxmaniac on April 03, 2008, 09:44:30 pm
Hello, apologies if this question has been answered in prior replys!
 I was just wondering if you have repacked your current muffler as best as possible.. travel to Tassie Aus VMX titles at a large cost... your bike is over the limit.. do u get sent home? Cant ride or otherwise?
Any correct answers to this by any chance? My dad asked me to post this question to know whether to book a ticket over!!
Any help would be great, cheers
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on April 03, 2008, 10:22:35 pm
Hilly down to your local car wreckers ,piles of shitty huge ugly pong boxes! You might even score a semi rooted catalytic converter to help clean up the forking stinking ozone layer too!!! Stick the bastards on with fresh mud as neatly as you can but make sure your brace them with crud rusty fence wire taken from your favourite race track, as they won't need it much longer cos they are all high on the list of filthy earth destroying petrol head places that have to go!
 No worries about forking well bringing 100,000+ mostly illiterate people to our country every year. So what if there is not enough water,sewage ,power supply ,waste disposal, LAND ,food ,jobs , health ,public transport ,roads etc. lets fill up the place and all the space so we stop all those arseholes that like to have pleasure with machinery!!! those disgusting noisy ungreen non21st century creeps having fun! How dare they!!!!!  Tim754
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: yzhilly on April 03, 2008, 10:33:53 pm
Hah just settle big fella . I picked up a muffler for my YZF400 its a stock WR450 muffler and is as long as my back mudgaurd ,i havent fitted it yet but if i want to ride at this event it's gonna have to go on. I'm dont know what to fit to the YZ100 as the stock muffler wont pass eeven if i repack it . The YZ80 muffler is 12" x 3" twice the size of the stock one and it didnt pass ???.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on April 03, 2008, 10:48:28 pm
 Hilly I do not have the answer. You have done what I would have. Do try cutting the engines mechanical noise with rubber blocks but remember not to block air flow if possible. and even chain noise too. Do you have all the proper covers on the motor? not drilled or modified? Others here have offered" maybe" fixes. keep at it and tell us how you go please.(Likewise everybody ;) Tim
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GMC on April 04, 2008, 08:05:28 am
The YZ80 muffler is 12" x 3" twice the size of the stock one and it didnt pass ???.
What is the core size of this muffler Hilly? If you have used something from a bigger bike to get a longer muffler it will have a bigger core size that will let more noise out even though it is longer as well as not running right because it has changed the back pressure.

The RPM that the test is done at is interesting...

up to 85cc  8000 rpm
85cc to 125cc 7000 rpm
125cc to 250cc 5000 rpm
251cc to 500cc 4500 rpm
over 500cc 4000 rpm

What would a BSA or Triumph normally rev to?
& what were these limits based on?

4500 RPM for an open class bike.
A TT500 would maybe be at 3/4 throttle where as a CRF450 would be at 1/2 or 1/3 throttle.
A CZ 360 or Maico 350 would also be at 3/4 throttle??

125cc to 250cc 5000 rpm
How high would a MX 250 rev, or an Elsinore 250? They would also be around 3/4 throttle compared to a YZF250 being around 1/2 or 1/3 throttle

And the 250 f's run with the 125's so are they measured as 125's or 250's???????

So instead of chasing lower decibels for the older bikes maybe we should be pushing for the readings to be taken at a lower RPM.
This lets MA brag they have lowered the noise limits to keep the greenies happy & in effect it would make the levels more achievable for the older bikes.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: yzhilly on April 04, 2008, 10:56:34 am
Yeah geoff the inside diameter there is not much difference ,i havent measured it but i will have a go at them tonight . But wether it affects how it goes doesnt matter coz if it's not quieter when we front up next round we wont be riding .
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 04, 2008, 01:02:26 pm
LEt the games begin.

I will be interested to see all the aussie inginuity and ideas posted in future on the hunt for not HP but -DB.

There must be an easier way to quieten the bike, in theory does the DB rate change out at a flatter neutral Rpm ? if so in theory, if you can tune the bike to be quiet in that static test RPM zone the other sides dont matter right ?  you now when you build up revs it goes quiet in a sweet spot where it harmonises before it picks up again.  IF your really luck and that spot is in the rpm test zone would it be possible to tune up or down , pipes etc, to get that zone into the test area or is that just pie in the sky ?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on April 04, 2008, 01:29:06 pm
Ive got an idea Freaky that will defeat the db limits,

1. We all push our bikes to the start
2. Push them for one lap around to the finish line, rolling down table tops and helping each other on the up ramps (except for the guys leading, they are automaticaly sent to the back of the field)
3. Push them back onto the trailers,

At no time do we get to start them, we have now brought the bikes under the 96db, will eventually feel fitter than we ever have before,
eliminates the need for mixing of fuels, still get to see some great looking bikes, never have to buy wear parts, win win situation alround and the governing bodies are happy :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tony T on April 04, 2008, 01:45:29 pm
I remember a guy writing to Dirt Bike asking if wrapping old inner tubes around the pipe/muffler would help reduce the noise......................

I think the answer was that the noise from the bike would definitely be less noticable................... over the sound of the fire sirens.................  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: huskyrider78 on April 04, 2008, 01:54:41 pm
Rosco,
Not sure that would work - dropping the tailgate on my trailer makes a godawful racket!  ;D

And my metal tie-down hooks make a horrible rattling sound against the eyelets! (although I'm looking into having them shrinkwrapped in soundproofing nylon sleeves - will let everyone know).
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 04, 2008, 02:04:11 pm
i remember it was all the rage to run heat cloth wrap on the front header pipes on the roadies for a while back, cant remeber why but most teams did, could have been heat deflection or inflection, but then again we didnt run fairings so it may have been to do with somthing else, we ran it too,  but cant remember if it had a reason or was like the Sweat bands on the brake cylinder faze.

Anyone ?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: yzhilly on April 04, 2008, 02:49:23 pm
I just picked up a late model cr80/85 alloy  muffler with down turned exit for $50 on ebay so hopefully that will fix one .
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: evo550 on April 04, 2008, 03:27:57 pm
Tony,
I remember reading a similar article where an aussie isde rider failed a test at an isde event, he wrapped the muffler with tubes and passed the second test.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on April 04, 2008, 03:41:15 pm
My 240WR Husky had a heatproof cloth strapped chamber and another metal skin. not sure if it was for the noise abatement or the heat  but it looked stock.was secured by worm clamps.


Just like this one


http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3330/explorar0010ai0.jpg
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 04, 2008, 04:33:43 pm
Despite my opposition to this 'Law' I'll no doubt be impressed with the many varied and ingenious ideas you'll come up with to muffle your bikes.
What's that saying, "Necessity being the Mother of invention"?
Heat wrap, inner tubes (??!!)...and what better than a car muffler to slot beautifully over the arse end of bikes pipe.
How gracefully the Vintage ideal is taking it's place in the 21st Century.
And what a shame only the Garage Queens/Museum pieces will maintain the look and essence we all love. 

These ideas may all work - and a few Forum Members have expressed support for the 96db rule.
But I have a question:

Is there anyone so keen to support the rule that they will not sign the proposed petition?  
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Lozza on April 04, 2008, 05:52:39 pm
Finally you are starting to think Freaky as this is exactly what Dave Morris did to his CZ.The inner tube goes inside the stinger/end can and then packed with fibreglass matting.Hardly rocket science innit.No need for whinging ,masters degrees or anything else.  ::)
Just digesting the details of side resonant chambers in John Bradley's book.Since the test occurs at an rpm according to stroke, we can determine what frequency noise needs to be attenuated.eg 50mm stroke 2 stroke 7600 rpm so 7600/ 60 = 127 Hz the fifth harmonic* is the loudest so 127 x 5 = 637 Hz will be the frequency the noise meter will see the most of.A side resonant chamber is an extra chamber placed at the exit of the stinger usually about 80mm long same diameter as the silencer.The centre pipe has 2 holes in the side of between 5-10mm in od.The holes are designed only to filter out the specific test rpm noise nothing else as the bike simply has to pass the test. I'll have some better explanations from a sound engineer I am doing some work for.
*Don't ask me.

The wrap on pipes was to equalise pipe temps on V twins and to add heat to some 125's nothing to do with noise.Now out to the shed.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: All Things 414 on April 04, 2008, 06:01:43 pm
God I hope Geoff can make me a muffler. If I have to work out stuff like Lozza does I think my head will implode! :(
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rossvickicampbell on April 04, 2008, 07:20:58 pm
I agree with 414 - where are you Geoff???  My 250 Elsinore has a GMC pipe with something like an 18inch silencer packed to the max and should be OK - my YZ360 on the other hand has a bloody 3 inch pickle!!!!!  Geoff - what ya got for my 360 mate!

 ;D

Rossco
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Nathan S on April 04, 2008, 07:36:41 pm

The RPM that the test is done at is interesting...

up to 85cc  8000 rpm
85cc to 125cc 7000 rpm
125cc to 250cc 5000 rpm
251cc to 500cc 4500 rpm
over 500cc 4000 rpm

What would a BSA or Triumph normally rev to?
& what were these limits based on?

4500 RPM for an open class bike.
A TT500 would maybe be at 3/4 throttle where as a CRF450 would be at 1/2 or 1/3 throttle.
A CZ 360 or Maico 350 would also be at 3/4 throttle??

125cc to 250cc 5000 rpm
How high would a MX 250 rev, or an Elsinore 250? They would also be around 3/4 throttle compared to a YZF250 being around 1/2 or 1/3 throttle

And the 250 f's run with the 125's so are they measured as 125's or 250's???????

So instead of chasing lower decibels for the older bikes maybe we should be pushing for the readings to be taken at a lower RPM.
This lets MA brag they have lowered the noise limits to keep the greenies happy & in effect it would make the levels more achievable for the older bikes.


Quoted because I reckon its the best post I've read on the topic.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on April 04, 2008, 08:23:52 pm
The Fifth Harmonic using a guitar as sound devise
cents
2    octave    P8    1200.0    0.0
3    just perfect fifth    P8 + P5    1902.0    702.0
4    just perfect fourth    2P8    2400.0    0.0
5    just major third    2P8 + just M3    2786.3    386.3
6    just minor third    2P8 + P5    3102.0    702.0
7    septimal minor third    2P8 + septimal m7    3368.8    968.8
8    septimal major second    3P8    3600.0    0.0
9    Pythagorean major second    3P8 + pyth M2    3803.9    203.9
10    just minor whole tone    3P8 + just M3    3986.3    386.3
11    greater unidecimal neutral second    3P8 + just M3 + GUN2    4151.3    551.3
12    lesser unidecimal neutral second    3P8 + P5    4302.0    702.0
13    tridecimal 2/3-tone    3P8 + P5 + T23T    4440.5    840.5
14    2/3-tone    3P8 + P5 + septimal m3    4568.8    968.8
15    septimal (or major) diatonic semitone    3P8 + P5 + just M3    4688.3    1088.3
16    just (or minor) diatonic semitone    4P8    4800.0    0.0

Shit that clears it up !!!!!! ;) ;)  Wikipedia.................................. Tim ::)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 04, 2008, 08:57:05 pm
Jet Plane 98db - are you sure??
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: fatboyracing on April 05, 2008, 07:42:47 am
Hi Guys,
When I started with my 73 XL 350 it had a reading of 114db
I removed the muffler and pulled it apart drilled all the holes in the perferated tube bigger and added more
I repacked the muffler
reading 104db down 10db for not much work
I then rapped the hole header pipe with the heatproof cloth tape (a bit like drag cars do)
reading 99.8db gained another 4.2db for $50 bucks
now I only have to find 0.9 db to be legal I think i will start with the engine noise next

I think that if we try , it can be acheaved ,Im not saying it is easy

cheers
Fatboy

ps Greame get the spell checker back please im a shithouse speller. ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on April 05, 2008, 10:38:45 am
Back in about 1980 i was fortunate to have a reasonably fast 750 water bottle with chambers but seems the local rego guy didnt like the music it made, neither did my mum.

It was either put the stock exhaust back on or quiet he beasty. solution ... expanded steel wire mesh  ;)

(http://www.sersltd.co.uk/newbuild/images/index/expanded_metal_mesh.jpg)

I removed the baffles and rolled the mesh into a tube and fabricated end plates and rivetted it all together and repacked with glass wool.

Result... quieter than the stock pipes.

It was a cheap fix and worked beautifully with no noticable change in power, just make sure you  have the mesh facing the right way or it dont do squat.

Was still reasonably quiet unpacked.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on April 05, 2008, 11:36:26 am
I built the muffler on my square barrell Maico using the rolled expanded metal method as Pokey described. Although the decibel reading of the bike hasn't been tested to my knowledge, I know that the bike was decidedly quieter than other Maicos at the Coffs Nats. Tony T even commented to me on its different sound. I'm curious to have the decibel reading checked at CD5.

Rather than treating this 96db limit as the shitty break that it indeed is, we must now look at the challenge of getting our bikes in under the limit. I reckon that because us vintage folks are largely do-it-yourself oriented, we should overcome the noise obstacle using some innovative methods and be seen to be showing the way for the future.
Below, is my Maico showing the homemade muffler that I reckon will come close to passing 96db.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/sq6.jpg)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: evo550 on April 05, 2008, 12:15:15 pm
How many of you have been tested in the past? Remember noise limits have been around along time, 102db last year, I bet very few bikes would have met that limit if tested. So why all the yelling and screaming now?
I have been racing for decades like most of you, and have only ever once seen a noise test carried out, and that was at the end of last year at my local "Modern" club where they where pro activly testing bikes to see how many bikes would pass the new level...if ever tested.
 Ma are not KILLING the sport with this move they are trying to prolong it for us and our kids, get a muffler and stick it on the end of your pipe....make the forkin' thing 96 db and stop whinging.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: yzhilly on April 05, 2008, 12:27:48 pm
What size holes are we talking about in the expanded mesh , I'm gonna try that on my YZ100 .
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on April 05, 2008, 02:21:24 pm
unsure what size i used hilly as it was a while ago and i used a bit of scrap.  Maybe 0.8 thickness.Pop down to Bunnings they should have a  a nice small sheet to play with.

 Firko may know metal sizes being a boily.

 just ensure the  openings face the engine when you install.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on April 05, 2008, 02:38:24 pm
Me too Hilly. I built my muffler in 1995 or therabouts but honestly can't remember the size of the mesh. Use steel and not Aluminium as the alloy heats up and distorts. Something with a 7-10mm slot should do it.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 06, 2008, 05:34:33 am
YZhilly..the holes are only about 2x3mm max and the mesh is formed from a single sheet of steel or aluminium by pressing. The fluted holes can be used either way..the gasses can flow over or they can flow against kinda like a cheese grater affect. Expamet used to be the main supplier of this stuff in anything up to walkway mesh size. It's good shit but it's expensive. The aluminium stuff is the go, light as a feather and it forms and cuts easily. It does work as I used this in all my mufflers years ago when I had a ready supply. The aluminium stuff is used extensively in satelite dishes and the product name is 602DV or 602DVA for the aluminium. If you can get it at bunnings I'll be buying some myself for sure! ;)

Incidently, the quiet muffler on my TM has the muffler built using the bent but now perforated stinger pipe as the inner. This seems to keep the noise down and it doesn't seem to rob power as it keeps the stinger at the desired length. The outer is simply a piece of 2 inch exhaust with a kink to match the stinger...hmmmm..pic needed..will get one when it's light  ;)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GMC on April 06, 2008, 09:18:46 am
I agree with 414 - where are you Geoff???  My 250 Elsinore has a GMC pipe with something like an 18inch silencer packed to the max and should be OK - my YZ360 on the other hand has a bloody 3 inch pickle!!!!!  Geoff - what ya got for my 360 mate!

 ;D

Rossco

When I started to get serious about making chambers in the early nineties I purposely made an effort to build them with good mufflers as I believe that loud bikes do us all a disservice.  I generally made the muffler lengths 300mm long, which was longer than anything else around that I saw or they ever came with. Some of these pipes, Maico & CZ 400's for example have given me good feedback with performance despite these long mufflers.
A lot of my downpipes are similar in this way with the muffler tube around 400 long but 100 of that is the last baffle cone leaving 300 for the muffler core.
I just don't have the time or recourse for testing at the moment, flat out getting stuff ready for CD5 where I am hoping to get some feedback from some of my pipes that may be there. If these 300 long mufflers are enough to make the new limit then it won't be that hard to achieve but if not then I'm not sure what else as I can't make these mufflers any longer as they would ported past the back wheel which is another no-no.
Future muffler decisions will be made after CD5

I will also have my muffler packing on special at CD5 as I did with the other CD's

The expamet mesh is available either flattened or with the flutes protruding, I would be careful with some of this as the flutes can prematurely allow the packing blow out. Too large a hole in the perf mesh can do this too, which brings me to another point. Do the bikes have to meet the test before a race & after a race or just at scutineering???

Ceramic coating of pipes may help with the resonating sound from thin wall pipes too, not sure just a thought.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on April 06, 2008, 09:41:20 am
Do the bikes have to meet the test before a race & after a race or just at scutineering???

At the NATS last year at Coffs, they were testing as you come off the track so guess that would be standard practice
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mboddy on April 06, 2008, 09:55:09 am
If these 300 long mufflers are enough to make the new limit then it won't be that hard to achieve but if not then I'm not sure what else as I can't make these mufflers any longer as they would ported past the back wheel which is another no-no.

The stinger before the muffler can be extended back into the body.
This has been used successfully in the past on bikes like the TZ750.
My TDR comes from the factory like this.
It does not reduce the power output but it does reduce the noise a lot.

For more detail see '10.16 Tailpipes' in 'The High-Performance Two-Stroke Engine' by Dr John C. Dixon. Haynes 2005.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 06, 2008, 12:18:35 pm
This is what I was talking about..doesn't look the prettiest but it is far quieter and it works better than any 'after stinger' type muffling I've tried. I'd guestimate about 30% quieter than a TM pipe with the standard pickle type muffler which I run on the other TM ;) (http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/2820/rm400c002jf3.th.jpg) (http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rm400c002jf3.jpg)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mboddy on April 06, 2008, 01:35:24 pm
Just been trying to quieten the IT250D down.
Down to 3 disks in the Supertrapp.
A pvc end cap filled with stainless steel scourers.
Smaller diameter core.
The nasty crackle is gone which would have blown the noise meter.
But I have no idea whether it is quiet enough or not.
I hope it is quiet enough for Heaven Round 2 next weekend.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: fatboyracing on April 06, 2008, 09:12:16 pm
Hi Guys,
Just got back from Testing modern bikes in Penguin at the first round of the Australian Motocross Champs
tested  75 on Saturday and all passed easy
remember that the reading only needs to be 98.9 with a type 2 meter
most of the factory bikes came in around 93 to 95 not much over. They are also careful not to be too close before the race because after a 30 min moto the pipe gains about three quarter to a full db in noise,and in the races 1st, 2nd and 3rd were tested after racing.
Most of the factory bikes were tested sometimes 5 times playing around with end caps etc. perhaps thats were we should be looking.

I also will be helping Derek Rumble test at CD5

Cheers
Fatboy
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mboddy on April 06, 2008, 09:32:52 pm
Gina convinced me to get a noise meter.
I then spent the afternoon trying to get the noise down.
It isn't too bad now at a fast idle.
Didn't have a rev counter and so I still don't know what it puts out at the prescribed revs.
I would like to get it much quieter.
(http://www.spitfire.com.au/~mboddy/noisemeter.jpg)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 06, 2008, 09:40:36 pm
youu can buy vibration disks that sit on you cases to tell you the revs
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: huskyrider78 on April 07, 2008, 07:16:59 am
Hi Guys,
Just got back from Testing modern bikes in Penguin at the first round of the Australian Motocross Champs
tested  75 on Saturday and all passed easy
remember that the reading only needs to be 98.9 with a type 2 meter
most of the factory bikes came in around 93 to 95 not much over. They are also careful not to be too close before the race because after a 30 min moto the pipe gains about three quarter to a full db in noise,and in the races 1st, 2nd and 3rd were tested after racing.
Most of the factory bikes were tested sometimes 5 times playing around with end caps etc. perhaps thats were we should be looking.

I also will be helping Derek Rumble test at CD5

Cheers
Fatboy

Shane, from the above it appears:

1. Your testing equipment is working :)
2. Manufacturers have spent millions of dollars of R&D in getting the noise levels of their bikes down :D
3. MA are asking the VMX community to do the same with aluminium mesh from Bunnings ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rossvickicampbell on April 09, 2008, 12:02:08 am
I am trying to be pro active and see what is on the market out there for those of us less "able" to put something together.  Very interesting that when I wrote to Circle F Kevin replied with he didn't know of a muffler for VMX bikes that would get to 96 - suggested maybe the FMF quiet core?

FWIW

cheers

Rossco
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 09, 2008, 01:00:13 pm
hmmmm..FMF, Cirle F, Vintage Iron...all = $$$ for something that will more than likely not even look period and cause much woe. Someone made the statement in a previous post about the japs and other manufacturers spending millions on R&D including exhaust development and now they want us 'backyard boys' to improve on it (no offence)..the more I sit and think..they are definately insane!! This argument along with the discrimination against the vintage dirtbikes should be enough to make someone sit up and see the light. I reckon we should forward this 11 page (so far) topic to all the powers that be so they can read about the how unfavorable and how discriminatory this change is toward classic MX. I accepted it cause I want to ride some more but I still say it sucks and I don't agree at all!  1 rule for all MA disciplines or they should bugger off and leave well and good enough alone are my feelings also. 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on April 09, 2008, 02:30:40 pm
Thats a good point about forwarding this thread onto the powers that be Doc. 
With vintage racing as we all know we have  conditions  to keep period in order to comply so if the machines were legal to race last year why cant the "same" machine race now? After all they are still historically correct.

Common sense says If an exhaust has been modified then it should not be manufactured to have a higher Db than a stock system or its finger waving time.

What else my head is thinking is that its not the bikes failing as it has not changed. what has changed is peoples perception of our sport and the environment that some of the tracks  share with the general public. That being the case should not the tracks be made to comply with a Db rating and leave the bikes alone or at least be controlled at a club level? Seems thats what got the Historic road racers a more easily achievable Db rating.

 I feel the beaurocrats should be told to put a sock in it
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: suzuki27 on April 09, 2008, 02:56:43 pm
Does anyone reading this know what the limit is now for "Classic" road race-A TZ700 or open megaphone CB900  for example would blow the DB reader apart!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: cyclegod on April 09, 2008, 03:10:57 pm
Does anyone reading this know what the limit is now for "Classic" road race-A TZ700 or open megaphone CB900  for example would blow the DB reader apart!

102dB
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 09, 2008, 06:34:33 pm
Doc and Pokey, I think those of us not happy with the new 96db rule appreciate your idea for forwarding these 'posts' and it sounds good in theory.... but we all know that's not how 'Boards' make their decisions.
The MA Board will not sit at the meeting table and read our grumblings page after page.
Motions must be moved and seconded and voted on etc, etc.

An earlier update states 'the Board' ignored the 25 or so submitted protests.
Very little action was taken by the collective VMX community prior to the 96db ruling coming into force. 
The motion to adopt 96db for VMX has now been voted on - and accepted by the ruling body.
It has arrived and that is that.

The VMX community either adopts or fights the ruling.
It's not like we were asked or polled (and I think the 25 protests outweigh the numbers sitting on the Board...?).
However, if the ideas on this forum for complying/altering pipes are a guide I'd say many here are accepting of the new rule.

Over this thread and its sister thread (noise emmisions) I think every argument for and against 96db has been raised; we're only going over old ground and repeating ourselves.
I believe the only way for it to revert or gain parity with those allowed a higher noise level is by petition.

My own view remains constant over these threads - the 96db ruling smacks of hypocracy and favouritism.
But bitching on this forum has achieved nought.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: BJJ on April 09, 2008, 06:49:09 pm
x
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: BJJ on April 09, 2008, 06:55:13 pm
To be honest, when I start these monsters in sydney, the wife theathens divorce and I never get to speak to the neighbors for a week.  I love it (rebel 2stroker),  but with little +garages+ in the current realestate situation,  I think some of us are doomed.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on April 09, 2008, 09:17:39 pm
its like the scene in the Life Of Brian - "Somethings actually happening Reg!"

211
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: evo550 on April 10, 2008, 07:31:25 pm
At the risk of being an outcast......again, I'm all for 96db and I struggle to understand why so many of you are brutally against it, is it not for the benefit of the sport? Maybe, maybe not but I know that making them louder is not.
Most race bikes we ride are varied in some form from oem, is an alloy muffler going to destroy the "period" look of the bike that much, not as much as that new fox helmet and matching gear as you sit on your non-slip seat cover, looking down at the anodised excel rims do.
If you want to partition MA why not do one to have the gcr's include the classic roadies as well.
Why not make their bikes as Quiet as ours, instead of making ours as LOUD as theirs. What is that saying about one bad apple.
We need to do all we can to ensure the longevity of the sport and if that means making our bikes 6 db quiter than last year is that such a big sacrifice, shit why not be a little pro active and while you are there make it 92 db, meet the limit and go one better.

I could go on but long posts never get read.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 10, 2008, 08:47:57 pm
Evo, I doubt anyone here thinks you're an outcast at all; you raise some good and valid points.
I particularly agree with your comments about the non period riding apparel and other non vintage items roundly accepted.
The new ruling ensures we can't go from concourse to race track without modification - and that's where it stuffs the vintage ideal.
I reckon vintage is vintage and bolting on an uber silencer takes away from the spirit of the sport.
A model T Ford wouldn't be the same with radial tyres would it?

But I think petitioning MA to stomp on the Historic Road Racers would be a mean thing to do.
And they obviously have people on the inside so that would go nowhere.

It's all a good debate and let's continue to discuss all differences of opinion across the VMX spectrum in a civilised manner. We all ride the same tracks and no-one wants a punch in the face at CD5 type gatherings for having been too harsh on a forum.
As they say, let's all agree to disagree agreeably.
 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 090 on April 11, 2008, 07:50:42 am
Great points Mark (evo)and i agree with alot of what you are saying. I think the cold hard reality is its just another thing that we have to do and another reason to put your hand in your pocket.That is probably more the reason why most are against it more so than keeping it period, me included. I must say that i am still against the 96db as (in my opinion)its no where near as relative to us as the new bikes that race in packs of 40 at a time or go racing in the local bush or up the road.
I will have to modify at least ten bikes myself= too hard!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 11, 2008, 12:26:24 pm
okay Evo, I see one problem with your solution, name me 1 manufacturer that lists their aftermarket silencers' decibel rating? It doesn't happen and no-one as yet has a proven way to get the noise down. It's not a case of simply buying a nice new alloy muffler as good chance you will still be over the 96DB and a couple of hundred lighter. I can sit here inside at home on a Sunday when the Vintage motocross is on at Nudgee and not hear a sound, I can also sit here when the modern dirt track is on and believe me..they are bloody loud. I see no reason why people and local residents shouldn't be complaining. It's the moderns doing the damage!! The main argument here is it's not the vintage bikes doing the damage but the late stuff. Why did MA pick on vintage? Because we are a minority that's why, it's the poorest cop out I've heard in a long time. I'll modify 2 bikes to ride but it looks like all the others can stay in the garage because like Brad, I am not about to change 10 bikes, not that I could I ever afford to. The whole argument reeks of discrimination and it is a crock and it stinketh  ;) No ones wants to wear a punch in the snout or argue simply because he/she disagrees and wants to keep his/her bike original or visa versa but what MA has successfully done is shaped a wedge that can and will divide the vintage MX movement and sadly because of this numbers will only drop not gain. Quite obviously MA does not give a rats buttocks about vintage mx and if it survives or not! Maybe this is in their grand plan?? They could not care less!!  If it was a directive across the whole racing fraternity then it would be a little easier to swallow but to sit here and listen to the noise moderns make compared to vintage bikes and then for them to turn around and tell us we (vintage) are too loud and noisy is the biggest pile of shit I've ever heard in all my born natural! If anyone doubts the noise comparo then you are quite welcome to drop over anytime and compare for yourself..the moderns are bloody loud and this is even with the noise barriers around the track that the vintage doesn't have. I am not picking on any MA official in particular but I am seriously questioning the logic and practicality of their collective decision making within a governing body.  I've pretty much had a skinfull of this topic also and agreeing to disagree and comply is the only available option available unfortunately. I agree less noise is best but lets's be fair to everyone and have right across the board.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Hoony on April 11, 2008, 03:30:33 pm
although i am a realist and know thatr the noise issue will not go away. i can't help but be pissed of at MA (as an organisation) on this issue as well as others, as i feel they (especially now post ACCA/ACU) have never had the sports best interests at heart. they run the sport like a money making business not for the good of it in general and there is way too much money involved with red tape and beaurocracy. i reckon it crap to have to have an MA permit for a social/practice day, one day licence to practice (not race) maybe i am just getting to be a crusty old prick.

fork that feels better.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 11, 2008, 03:43:53 pm
NOpe have to say hooony other than insurance im not sure what all the paper work is for, we did a trail ride with the club on a private property, everyon including the kids got the MA Bill for a day license if there we not on a licence and i feel for the poor secretary who has to get the permit and fill in all the shit.  Surely someone could spend all that money on a water tight ride at you own risk, waiver that would be inforcable.  I think next time its going to be run ans an invitaion only get together amongst "freinds" removing the words club, ride and organised. 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: evo550 on April 11, 2008, 07:09:53 pm
Doc,
I think both Answer and DG have an bolt on 96db u.s. forestry approved clip on thingy that can be attached to almost any existing silencer, but that's beside the point. Being a regular at nudgee how many times have you been noise tested? yet noise limits have been around for years, 102 db last year, I bet the same bikes that wouldn't meet this year limit would have failed 102 db last year as well. No ground swell of discontent then. Look I agree that modern meetings are a much louder event if your half a K away, not because the bikes are louder it's just that there are more of them and your right that for some reason not all disiplines are the same, with minikahna?being the lowest at 95db. How these numbers are decided are anyones guess, but wouldn't it be good to hear that the road guys are self regulation thier disipline and encouraging 96 db at their meetings below the required 102db.
The complaint that I will cost me a fortune to modify all 10 of my bikes(not a shot at you brad, just a number I picked that was higher than 1) does not sit well with me, my view is if you can afford to run more than 1 bike per year then the cost shouldn't be problem, I can't even afford one, but I have sent it to an M/C exhaust shop with directions to make it 94db. There goes my race entry fees for the next 2 years.

I look at the lack of changes at R/R as an indication that MA doesn't care about them, not us. We have been included in the changes made to all the disiplines......except R/R either that or they are a power unto themselves......bit like B.S.A. trying to take on Hutchies or Leightons (All the tradies will know what I'm talking about) either way it's detremental to their disipline.

Shit I could rattle on forever, but a very handsome, highly inteligent individual once           
 said " Long posts never get read"

* Disclaimer I am not a greeny or work undercover for M.A. ;)
See you all in the noise test line.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 11, 2008, 08:54:44 pm
And we could go on forever...but here's what it's comes down to.
96db is in; do we raise a petition and fight it or do we comply?

And I can't agree on the long posts not being read thing.
Witty one liners have their place but this noise topic deserves to be discussed.
Quality debate should be encouraged - cranky rants and short attention spans should not (and that's not an attack on anyone - it's just my opinion).
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: evo550 on April 11, 2008, 09:05:28 pm
Here's the thingy, kind of, http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Answer-Spark-Arrester-Add-On_W0QQitemZ330226261296QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330226261296

Your right wombat, It's great when these things can be discusssed in a civilized manner, I respect everyone's opinion and I hope you all respect mine, different as it may be. I would still sit down and have a beer.
Congratulations must go to Freaky, very restrained through all this, the new medications working well then? ;)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on April 11, 2008, 10:19:27 pm
Swami Pokey rubs his crystal ball and the smoke clears.

I see many unhappy faces milling about the paddock
I see frantic stuffing of silencers with copious amounts of wool.
I see many cable operated restrictors being inserted in chambers.
I see.. i see a half empty grid

 The smoke closes in and all again becomes haze
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: yzhilly on April 12, 2008, 09:24:32 am
Well i've been busy repacking mufflers and i,m still waiting on the expanded mesh . I've got a mate who is gonna roll some up for me to size and i will try that on a couple of yz mufflers with a before and after noise test .
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: huskyrider78 on April 15, 2008, 03:36:01 pm
The world has gone mad

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23542565-2862,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23542565-2862,00.html)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 15, 2008, 05:30:28 pm
if Boroondara mayor Coral Ross is typical of mayors in Australia then yes..we are in deep shit..it's a starters gun for gods sake!!..I can make more noise banging in a nail!! isn't this the starting method still used at the most prestigious sports events..including the Olympics!! I can't help but feel sorry for these people..they should get a life and butt out of everyone elses!

sorry wombat..another cranky rant..angry ant  ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on April 15, 2008, 05:40:29 pm
Geez.  I wonder if the noise meter will be required at Klub Kevlar's  Chilli  Cook off :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 15, 2008, 05:48:44 pm
Good point pokey.
Let's have those pan lids firmly secured or removed entirely.
Nothing shits the neighbours more than a rattling lid.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 15, 2008, 11:09:13 pm
Congratulations must go to Freaky, very restrained through all this, the new medications working well then? ;)

Plenty to say but is anyone ever listening ?

I dont have pokeys crystal ball, but i saw the same thing come to me in a vision one night, i had 15 bikes and begin to worry in 08 i haz no where to ride them, the first round of the SA dirt track nearly gets cancelled and is still grey as the atujara club pulls the pin and our club trys to save it and then i find out the rest of the local classic guys apon hearing about the noise DB story dont renew there MA licenses, Potentially no classic riders next round, the club secretary said he might cut the classics or combine into one race if not more than 4 riders enter and finally ELvis is found alive in a geelong diner.

And then i woke up, to realise actually only one of these item isnt true. :'(
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: VMX247 on April 15, 2008, 11:17:07 pm
that was not a vision or a dream it was a bloody nightmare.. :o
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 15, 2008, 11:30:36 pm
YEs i await to see how it all pans out 247, not going to be an exciting year, hope to at least make it to canberra for a look, cause if i dont go there this year on a Senior licence, i think next year it wont be viable to renew and just get Day permits whenever i go for a ride ( 08 licences up another $10).  Im hoping we get some new blood otherwise i might have to upgrade the 01 Ktm to something 07.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tony T on April 21, 2008, 09:20:37 am
Just received the official line from MA as follows:

Dear All,

 

Motorcycling Australia has received approximately 25 items of correspondences expressing concern at the reduction of noise levels to 96dbA for Classic Motorcross.

 

The matter has been considered by the Board of Motorcycling Australia and I take this opportunity to provide a common response which will hopefully address the majority of concerns raised in the aforementioned items of correspondence and hopefully as a result you will have a better understanding of noise issues.

 

To assist in the process, I will respond in an item format.

 

1.      There is no exception for classic road racing. All road racing is limited to 102dbA and the principle reason for that are twofold:

·   Road racing is conducted on an established circuit with clear planning permits. Noise at many road racing circuits is monitored by government regulation.

·   The 102dbA level for road racing was allowed for the 2008 year because imported exhaust systems are designed for a world market in line with FIM regulations.

 

2.      Motorcycling Australia’s regulations of 96dbA for motorcross conforms in general with FIM regulations.

3.      Historic Road Racing does not have a specific exemptions. It is in line with the 102dbA regulation for all road racing.

4.      In the early days of Historic Road Racing there were no regulations and machines emitted noise in the range of 115dbA and 120dbA with open and reverse cone megaphones. The Historic Road Race competitors have made considerable effort to reduce noise with modified exhaust system which are usually quite different from the original system.

5.      Whilst the visual compatibility of classic motorcross machine should be, if possible, maintained alteration to exhaust system from the original appearance must be accepted in the interest of responsible management of sport in an effort to reduce noise. As stated above this has occurred in Historic Road Racing.

6.      In introducing a 96dbA level everybody must understand the relevant regulations outlined in GCR 12.10.3. Because type 2 meters are used in Australia a deduction of 2dbA is permitted. GCR 12.10.12 allows for rounding down of the reading ie. 96.9dbA become 96. Consequently, an allowance of 2.9dbA is permitted using a Type 2 meter. In this way, a reading of 98.9dbA will be recorded as 96dbA.

7.      Motorcycling Australia will have representatives at Classic Dirt 5 carrying out noise testing in an informal and educative manner. This will allow people the opportunity to modify their exhaust system prior to the next competitive event.

8.      In relation to the forthcoming Australian Championship and other race meetings in 2008, a heavy handed approach will not be the method used by any officials doing noise testing, ie. the allowances as specified in (6) above will apply.

9.      As stated above a heavy handed approach will not be adopted. However, a “no attempt” approach will not be tolerated. By no attempt I would classify as straight pipe on a four stroke machine or expansion chamber with no muffling on a two stroke machine as a non attempt to comply.

10.    Motorcycling Australia, by introducing this regulation is not attempting to drive people away from Classic Motorcross but is introducing a process of regulation for all disciplines of motorcycle sport rather than have regulations inflicted upon us by Government legislators who would have not have an understanding of our sport.

11.    Motorcycling Australia fully understands that classic racing machines were built without noise regulations in mind. However, we are now in a different age and faced with a myriad of environmental issues. Visual, original compatibility is a small sacrifice if that ensures a continuance of racing.

I will conclude by reiterating we are not about unnecessarily restricting competitors, but about responsibly managing our sport to ensure its future.

Should you wish to respond to this conclusions feel free to do so by email me at [email protected] or phone me on 03 9684 0512.

Kind Regards,

David White
Chief Executive Officer
Motorcycling Australia


I'm on the way out now but will pen a response when I get back on Wednesday.
One thing stood out though, and that is how the CEO of MA refers to motocross as 'motorcross'.  ::)
Pretty minor I know, but a silly mistake all the same that normally comes from those that have no knowledge of the sport.........................


Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: VMX247 on April 21, 2008, 09:33:21 am
Thanks Tony T for keeping us in the loop.oops just got mine via home email.should read my emails before getting on here. ;)
Point no 6.      In introducing a 96dbA level everybody must understand the relevant regulations outlined in GCR 12.10.3. Because type 2 meters are used in Australia a deduction of 2dbA is permitted. GCR 12.10.12 allows for rounding down of the reading ie. 96.9dbA become 96. Consequently, an allowance of 2.9dbA is permitted using a Type 2 meter. In this way, a reading of 98.9dbA will be recorded as 96dbA.
yet the letter say's we must think of the sports future :-\
well that to me means that we will also change the type 2 meters used to Australia in the future.
Suppose this will be another hurdle to jump when we get there :'( :'( :'(


Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 21, 2008, 10:22:34 am
What i dont get is the crap about Road racing ? i mean the last time i looked at a MX or DT track it had permits, MA  and council approval, heck our track was EPA auditted ? so HTF can you use the reasoning that a ROAD track is allowed 102 just cause it is on an "established Circuit " in his words.

what does he think we just clear some brush and do laps in a paddock ?

And the excuse that they  use Imported exhausts because they are designed for a world market ? wtf. last i looked so was about 80% of the MX pipes, How is a Circle F thats been around for 30 YRs and trades internationally not a world market , and competed at national and international levels over that time ?

Paragraph 1 just blows me away, and send him a return email saying as much. ::)
The rest is just kisses and cream.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 21, 2008, 10:41:35 am
'they think we are a mob of scrub turkeys on non MA inspected tracks." -- Alison your a very funny girl, im still laughing  :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: VMX247 on April 21, 2008, 10:50:47 am
righto while we are bitchin about MA ,here is something else.
Each time they send us the kick start books for the junior burgers to start out in MX, they send about 5  at a time.Don't they think we produce in the country.
No idea some people in the silver city.
alison
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 21, 2008, 11:07:56 am
they figure no Junior burgers just a bunch of nuggets.............heheh
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 21, 2008, 02:26:38 pm
OKAY there is light at the end of the TUNNEL !

I just got a call from David white ( CEO-MA) now after a very long long phone conversation that basical went along the lines of i understand the concerns but............ to me explaining how it effects us and what it means in the real world, i think the penny just dropped and he finally gets it.

From what i understand his concern originally was and what he voted in, was for the period bikes to Run silencers, not open stingers or straight pipes.

Now after indicating to him i cant remeber the last time i saw anyone race with out a Silencer or tail piece, that this new ruling is not in the spirit of what they intended to do and how it actually ended up where it is in a mess of confusion and mis communication rulings>

Now just because MX run 96db it seemed like a good yardstick for them.

any way to cut an even  longer story short this chap might actually have turned the lights on and wised up to whats going on here.      Then again i did get a lot of warm fuzzies but re-iterated his intention and that of the rule book, are 2 diferant things and at any given track on any given day, the rule book wins out, the poor old scruitineer or clerk of course can only administer a race event from the MOMS.  That is 96dbi and a non comply.

Having made these pointsin the usually freaky way,  ;), he agreeed that the next step was to review and publish how the ruling is to be interpreted, that at the next excecutive meeting i think 21st May ?, where they will table another review with a view to clarifying the generalizing of the original concept to something a little more VMX freindly and not so death knock. 

I asked that we be able to RUN a Target Band, so to say 'all bikes between 102 and 96dbi get to race un-contested' whereby a silencer of some description is fitted (original or A/F).  Where no attempt is made thats where the warnings and depending on lack of attempt to quieten, track staff can decide on bike possible exclusion.

He Indicated to me THAT 'NO BIKE' will be excluded from a race meet for being in the 102-96dbi  BAND, that included NATIONALS, so long as it runs somthing on the end of the chamber.  (just no open stinger pipes) most classics we run all have somekind of silencer or muffler on them from factory so we are already there  :o

Now here is the clincher, as you would, personal talk means nothing so i asked that a written release or addendum be put out to clarify this and get it on the record as to the "allowance". At that excecutive meeting such a clarification will be underwritten ( well that was his promise to me)

Also they will also look at the data from road racing and see if we cant move from static testing to a drive by scenario, which is really what we are after i think wereby you can button off if needed, but also its about the grid of bikes being at an exceptable level (as doc mentioned) to neighbours, not so much the 1 on 1 stuff ( unless its a real barker)  as pointed out to him ( thanks doc for the nuggee quote) a grid of old guys at half pace is no match for a full grid of moderns on song and as such you need to look at the output or contribution to Noise wholistically on the track per class, not just to a static RPM level you may never be in ?

So to cut a long story ,short for those that have read this far.

'NO BIKES WILL BE EXCLUDED from racing UNDER" this new proposal for meeting a reasonable attempt at sound diversion,  LAds get them under 102 and this thing will just pass over for  a couple of years at least !

So the up shot is as he metioned is that they are paying for voluntary testing at cd 5, now if all bikes tested can be in the 105-98 range then this thing will get legs as the ideal target range.

I dont know this bloke but if he is one of his word, things might just be a changing for the better.    211 and you other MA rep guys might now the deal with this guy, is he piss and wind or do you think we can trust him ? 

If any forum members are at this meeting on the 21st, can you get some weight behind this, it could change the whole face of this ruling.  Given what he told me this can all be fixed by modifying and ratifying in writing what was discussed.  This whole thing could actually work out.

Keep the pressure on from this target complience angle thats the crack we needed.  Happy to take PM's on this one you MA chaps
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 21, 2008, 07:03:38 pm
Encouraging stuff indeed Freaky!
I also received the e-mail from David and your Cc.d 'reply to all'; which no doubt lead to David calling you.

I appreciate they (MA) made an effort to reply to all who sent letters.
and it's very interesting what you say about the stingers!!
I'm heartened to see some dialogue (good on ya Freaky and thanks David for making the phone call) has cleared up a gross misunderstanding.

I can't help but re-iterate if the MA had held discussions with the Clubs and the membership (as per their charter) this misunderstanding would NEVER have got this far. 

All good so far and a big hearty thanks to all who sent letters to MA.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 21, 2008, 08:09:39 pm
Balls in his court lets see what they do about it now.  If i dont hear back from him after the meeting or see that in writing ill  call  back to see what changed  from our discussion?

at least its a strong step forward, into a realistic solution.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GD66 on April 21, 2008, 08:45:42 pm
 I too, and quite a list of others, received both missives. I would suggest the MA angle of non-aggressive interpretation indicates that if we work along the guidelines of no straight pipes, and no unsilenced two-strokes, but more importantly are SEEN to be making a valid attempt at cutting down on the noise output, then after a while the problem, like many others that have cropped up along the way, will quietly fade away when something else bobs up and is seen to require attention. What we have seen from The Phantom's email is that they seem to have been agreeably surprised by the manner of the response, and seem to be  taking a conciliatory approach to the issue. My advice would be, better now to lay low than continue to rail against it, and in time, it may well drift into the distance.... 8)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 21, 2008, 08:56:16 pm
agreed, but the rules should have focused on using silencers and targets if that was the intent.  they way they are currently written really only leaves a finite definanition regardless of how it is inforced and would be hard to inforce consitantly across the nation. 

I think in perspective there concept works with their original intended scope, but it somehow got lost between plan and paper.  If the rulebook is updated to allow scruitineers and clerks to follow the scope of which they speak and the options to ride under 'the targets' and 'of attempt' would make this whole situation very, very workable and i would actualy agree with it, it makes perfect sence.

It just was'nt communitcated and put in writing properly, if that was actually what was intended. Lets wait and see what changes in writing come as far as an official statement  for interpreting the rule at the track, before we get too carried away , but i think the lights have finally come on and there is an understanding :D !
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 21, 2008, 09:51:56 pm
Freaky, the 20/20 Summit would have reached new heights if you'd been present! ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: huskyrider78 on April 21, 2008, 10:20:12 pm
You mean this wasn't discussed??  ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 22, 2008, 11:16:26 am
i have put a call in to kevin demandinng action on wombats behalf, he says hes going to get Kofi onto it.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on April 22, 2008, 01:26:33 pm
http://www.dirtwerkz.com/Pages/products/exhaust/dB_Dawg.html

Just in case goes belly up, might be worth looking at
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 22, 2008, 01:59:17 pm
Nice on rosco, thats a clever little device if it works.  Couldnt be hard to make somthing similar.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 22, 2008, 07:03:53 pm
Thanks for the link Rossco; I'll hold onto that.
It almost looks too simple - and it's far more stylish and aerodynamic than the 20lt drum full of sawdust I tried to mount on mine.

and did you see the MX doona covers and matching sheet sets on that website?!
I'll have to show my boy; it's MY birthday in June...
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on April 22, 2008, 07:35:10 pm
Theyve got some good stuff by the looks of it, I was not aware of this site until a mate came in and showed me today, now only if they sold Crusty Babes :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mboddy on April 22, 2008, 09:17:29 pm
Nice on rosco, thats a clever little device if it works.  Couldnt be hard to make somthing similar.
Best that only one of us buys it and tests it first. I am sceptical.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Nathan S on April 28, 2008, 07:04:55 pm
FWIW:

FatBoy and some bloke from MA were doing the voluntary noise testing at CD5. On Saturday afternoon, they had had less than a dozen bikes front up to be tested!
The RPM tester is some funky little spiral spring thing (like a builder's tape measure) that is pressed up against the engine cases while the engine if revved - when the spring resonates, the engine is revving to the pre-set number of revs.

My YZ125C blew 100.7dB. It's a stocker with no packing in the muffler, and none of the rubber dampers between the cylinder fins (and a fair bit of piston slap...). When it was out on the track, it sounded like one of the louder bikes out there, at least among the two strokes.

Noel's 77 CR125 was quieter than the YZ, and KB's XR75 was much louder (but I can't remember the figures for either).
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Noel on April 28, 2008, 07:28:31 pm
I had my 2 bikes tested
My 77' CR125, stock chamber with home made extra silencer freshly packed 99.2 Db
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j41/Tento850/DSCF3166.jpg)

77 xt 500 with home made silencer combo of concentric tubes and packed straight through 97.4 Db
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j41/Tento850/DSCF3172.jpg)

I then added some disc's that I had made to fit on the end and that dropped it to 90.0 Db
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j41/Tento850/DSCF3171.jpg)

I was amazed at this reading drop as when reving the bike it did not sound that much quieter
but at the testing revs the Db's just fell away



cheers
Noel
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: oldfart on April 28, 2008, 07:57:20 pm
Tested the Drm 400 ( 4 stroker ) and it gave a reading of 98.9 which was a pass as they have to round the reading down to  ( 98 db )   you beauty
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on April 28, 2008, 07:58:39 pm
i heard only 12 of the 40 or so bikes tested passed.  that tells a story.  

I noticed one open piped duke, would have loved to see that on the gizmo, be interested to see if it pumps for water or booms be interested in what you got planned there Mr. F
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: KB171 on April 28, 2008, 10:09:50 pm
The XR75 pumped out 112 db at 8.500 rpm
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on April 28, 2008, 10:23:48 pm
Yeah bugger, I missed my opportunity to have my bike tested.
I thought the testing was an all weekend feature but when I saw Fatboy at the test spot on Sunday morning he said it was all over and done with.
So I souvenired the noise test sign and Joel signed it.

Not to worry, rules is rules and I'm sure I'll see another noise meter in due course... ::)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 30, 2008, 08:42:22 am
The record on the day was 116db by some Suzuki :o Would have been a 125S I'm guessing as they are pretty raspy when on the pipe. The little TM ran out at 100db on the nose so I was pretty impressed with that..won't take much to get it down from there  :)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: OZYKTM on April 30, 2008, 11:22:12 am
The record on the day was 116db by some Suzuki :o Would have been a 125S I'm guessing as they are pretty raspy when on the pipe. The little TM ran out at 100db on the nose so I was pretty impressed with that..won't take much to get it down from there  :)
The bike that got that 116db reading was an old DR-500 with a hot dog muffler. :-X
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 30, 2008, 06:00:41 pm
A DR500!  :o okay 4 smokers can wn this title!!..not a record I'd wanna challenge really  :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: evo550 on April 30, 2008, 06:14:42 pm
Doc,
It's about the only thing those suzies will win ;)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 090 on April 30, 2008, 06:25:56 pm
I was told an xr75 with what looked like a megaphone type muffler went off the scale. I took a cr480rd,a cr125ra and a cr125m. The125 breezed in at 93db and the 480 was under also. The 125m went 102 with the dg pipe.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: KB171 on April 30, 2008, 07:27:40 pm
Buggered if i know who that might ave been  :-X)But it did cause Ken Smith to run out of the tent yelling to shut it down,i think they may have been interveiwing some Belgium chap, oops. : :P
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on April 30, 2008, 07:43:18 pm
 :o Evo550! you're lucky the oldfart left for uNZud today..he'll be chomping at your heals when he reads your post! I best PM him now to warn him so he doesn't instantly self implode when he spots it ;) :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GD66 on April 30, 2008, 08:12:15 pm
 Well, it certainly indicates that we should be able to get under or acceptably close to MA's new limit ( with their tolerance level taken into account ) without too much pain and pus, and without having to fit speedway-style turbo mufflers to the bikes. As I have mentioned before, once it has been observed and noted that we are trying to comply, I am sure the fuss will die down, and the focus will transfer elsewhere, hopefully to another unrelated branch of the sport . But thanks to those of you who went through, and passed on the results to indicate some idea of where we stand. You, of course, KB, should receive the weekend's Faecal Agitator award, but I'm sure you'd have had plenty of stiff opposition.... :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: evo550 on May 01, 2008, 08:50:23 am
Doc,
I fear no Kiwi, having been married to a female of the species for many years, I doubt anything the men could come up with would compare(hell has no fury and all that)
Just to stir the whitebait nest and komra nest a bit more, I have attached a photo of a real fourstroke evo bikein the making, coming soon to a track near you............and all under 96.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GMC on May 01, 2008, 10:51:34 am
So can anyone report how any of my pipes tested?
I asked a couple of guys on Sat. night  to test for me not knowing thier was no testing on Sunday.
The only result I know so far was a CZ sidepipe 360 that came in just on 100 Db.
Due to space limitations this is one of the shortest mufflers I build.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Maico31 on May 01, 2008, 02:12:32 pm
Evo is that the old XT550 getting a face lift?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: evo550 on May 01, 2008, 04:22:23 pm
I refer to it as the "Pheonix rising from the ashes", but perhaps I'm a bit bias. You may well say the "Old xt550" but your tune shall change after we slay a packful of pityful maicos.
The day of reconing is coming. (insert crazy homeless man with sandwich board icon)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on May 02, 2008, 05:11:37 pm
What if we can try this little item.

Turn it around for testing, ........oops turn it back for the Racing.

 Looks like a great idea.  Ahhhh 1974 the year of everything ever invented  ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on May 02, 2008, 10:17:04 pm
Found an old noise test slip from Heathcote Park drags before, Of course there are ? limits as such for ANDRA drag racing. Test at Five meters on staged /released  Kawasaki 750 triple two stroke rail frame ,slick tyre ,wheelstand control fitted, reading "129.08 decibels has Passed testing procedure" !!!! :o Tim     Quiet ,cute, cuddly,likes baby pets not that Kwaka..
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on May 07, 2008, 07:41:58 pm
IM thinking to muffle some bikes is a crime against humanity .....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-399655162231091875&hl=en
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on May 07, 2008, 07:56:21 pm
Like 1000cc Vincent HRD Speedway sidecars at any revs... and 850cc Norton VMX sidecars powering up a slippery hillside, and of the genuine 3 and 4 and 6 cylinder MV Augusta factory road racers with Agostini on board at Phillip Island when they came to Australia a few years back and any CCM and....................... ;)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: YSS on May 07, 2008, 08:00:23 pm
Tim , I hade my 1000 Wasp tested at CD 5 , it came in at a low 108 Decibels . There you go . I thought it was pretty quiet. ( on idle anyway )
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on May 07, 2008, 08:04:11 pm
Mmmmm big bore and stroked Yamahas another gorgeously sweet sound!!!!!!!!!!! only 108!  better cut the shitty mufflers off Walter and try again :)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on May 07, 2008, 08:07:06 pm
Bernie Ellis' 1981 490 Maico with a Maicos Only Wheelsmith replica pipe and a stock Kawasaki KX500 muffler came in at 92db. Bernie has never repacked the muffler in the 8 years since he built the bike so If that passes I reckon it won't be too hard for everybody else.........I have to agree, Walters Yamaha outfit sure did sound like a race bike should. Music to the ears.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: YSS on May 07, 2008, 08:20:49 pm
Dont worry to much Tim , it will only get used on CD s once ayear, so there should not be a problem . It was OK for 30 years , so I dont think I will change anything now.
Mmmmm big bore and stroked Yamahas another gorgeously sweet sound!!!!!!!!!!! only 108!  better cut the shitty mufflers off Walter and try again :)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on May 08, 2008, 07:22:41 am
My mate on his old DR fitted with a hotdog pulled an amazing 116 db, has anybody been known to beat that ???
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on May 08, 2008, 10:24:34 am
I think Jonseys Black Betty came in around 102 and it hasn't got a muffler at all!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Rosco400 on May 08, 2008, 01:39:05 pm
I think Jonseys Black Betty came in around 102 and it hasn't got a muffler at all!

Does this mean there could be an inconsistancy with multiple readings, I was dumb founded when he said he was tested at this but Black Betty with no muffler i would have thought would be of the richter scale :o
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on May 08, 2008, 04:48:11 pm
Got a mate to come around with a noise tester just before, so I fired up the 754 in the shed (no front end at present fitted) Now it has 4 headers going into a 4 into 1 collector .then no muffler, just a chrome 60mm droopy tail piece that directs pipe under sidecars floor thats all. Worst result "102" decibels at approx. 6000 rpm???????????this in shed?????? ??? Shit better rename the HBS "Whispering death" :)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on May 25, 2008, 08:51:53 am
http://www.mccofnsw.org.au/a/117.html (http://www.mccofnsw.org.au/a/117.html)

this article explains kind of explains why the lower db reading Tim. Bottom line is worth a read and for those who don't wish to read the whole thing here is that bottom line.

Quote
a motorcycle with a deep "clean" note will have the energy level discounted in the test, but a motorcycle with higher frequencies in the exhaust note may not only fail the test, be also be "annoying'. Here we have the reason why "trail bike noise" is marked for attention by authorities, yet ordinary street registered machines mostly pass unnoticed by the general population

not so much how loud it is but moreso it's the the energy level or frequency which is tested, what we actually hear with our ears is deceptive and not exactly what is measured. Clear as mud  :-\
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on May 25, 2008, 12:55:58 pm
Yep looks like a case of....if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit........... ::)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on May 25, 2008, 02:37:43 pm
Annoyance?
 They still let people play bagpipes and ABBA records

 sheesh
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on May 25, 2008, 02:48:08 pm
yeah! an' I bet AC-DC play their bagpipes at more than 98dB  >:(
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: pokey on May 25, 2008, 03:02:37 pm
I get it now. we need to stick a nice long stinger on the end with some "Tuning" holes  along its length and be able to play Its a long way to the shop if ya wanna sausage roll by covering holes with toe of your boot  ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on May 27, 2008, 08:13:11 am
impressive stuff eh Pokey! I can just hear me in the pits.."oh yeah she's goin' great now thanks mate! I dropped an octave and gave her a little more reverb..it was distorting badly up top earlier"
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout) on May 28, 2008, 09:18:00 am
how do you tell if your muffler needs repacking - does it get louder (cause more of the noise goes straight thru cause packing full of carbon) or quieter?
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: vandy010 on May 28, 2008, 09:31:20 am
i had my RT1 on the meter on the weekend, it runs a stock shape RT1 pipe with the baffles removed from the chamber and a shortened well packed PE silencer. at 2500rpm it was running 92db but for a motor that size the revs are supposed to be 4500rpm and i feel it would have failed {the poor bike would probably only rev to about 5500 anyway}. we were in suburbia while testing and kept the revs down so as not to bring too much attention to ourselves. my bike i feel is one of the quieter ones, so go figure that!
also tested was a current model 250f husky enduro that ran an aftermarket pipe and it was easilly well under the 96db.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Doc on May 28, 2008, 03:55:41 pm
Twistandshout, she'll be louder because of the reason you stated. The carbon chokes the perforation holes and the packing thus reducing the amount of sound it can absorb. It's like liquid into this chalk..it bloody well should get in but it doesn't!  ;)

Vandy, this is basically what I feared, the way the sound is measured is inconsistant with capacity and engine type. There is noise and then there is really annoying noise. This is what some of the new generation 4 bangers produce, annoying noise. On a meter it may not read much as dB but this sound travels much further for some reason. It's a very 'flat' droning sound that seems to cut in over everything else and I can fully understand the complaints are forthcoming. On a VMX day, there's not a whisper to be heard and the vintage track is on the closer open side of the complex. I still say it's a cop out rule and only done to protect the guilty ;) I believe the sound should be measured from a minimum distance of 500 metres  ;D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on May 28, 2008, 11:49:48 pm
thats the post with the 'A" type meters they are set up to pick up high frequency, thus the 2 smokers get a bad run off the bat
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout) on May 29, 2008, 09:18:31 am
thanks doc.  means my muffler must still be good cause its one of the quietest mx bikes i've had. 

and i agree with your description of the sound of modern four bangers - 'drone' is right.  none of the excitement that full-on two smokers on the pipe generates.  but penetrating nonetheless.  double negative.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: gorby on June 12, 2008, 07:19:58 pm
I put this modern style muffler on the race bike and it went 99db

It added a couple of kilos and needed stronger brackets and supports.

I'm sure that some mufflers and baffles "fell off or blew out" as soon as the noise meter was put away :-X

will this be the future protest issue ?

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u125/mhplum/racebike.jpg)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: fatboyracing on June 13, 2008, 06:41:57 am
Hi All,
Gorbys bike was one of two bikes that passed the noise test in Tasmania at the nationals about 5 riders had made an effort and the rest of the riders tested didnot give a toss about noise. I think this attutude is very dangerous as I personly went out on a limb with MA to get an exempsion to make the nats 102 db
Luckly there was no protests to do with noise or else there would of be alot of bikes disqualified I warned every rider whos bike failed that if there was protested against them they would be excluded. As a noise tester and a vmx commissioner I am very dissapointed that more guys didnt make a effort and when I write my report for MA I have no alternative but suggest that we be a lot harder on riders and not allow them to ride at all if they dont make an effort. Please don't blame me as I have convinced MA that we would make an effort only to be crapped on by riders who came with straight out pipes and mufflers that have never been packed ever. There was a bike tested an AJS at118db please tell me that he made an effort. We need to help ourselves

Fatboy
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GD66 on June 13, 2008, 06:12:29 pm
 Well, that is absolutely piss-weak on the part of all those who made no attempt at all, especially in view of how much anguish and torment was expressed on this forum only a couple of months ago when the proposed 96db limit was introduced to everyone's amazement and disgust. Can't you gibberers see that unless you are SEEN to be making an attempt to ameliorate the noise output of your bike, stricter measures will be taken, and that means more testing, more drama, protests and disqualifications, all of which are not only distasteful but unnecessary.
 Does this mean that hardly anyone who rode at the nats reads this forum, or attends their local club meetings ? Or does it merely indicate that lip service is as far as you go towards protecting and ensuring the continuation of your chosen sport ? GET YOUR FINGERS OUT !! Or suffer the consequences from MA....
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on June 13, 2008, 06:41:51 pm
I'm not surprised in the slightest given the extremely poor effort which went into protesting the change.
If we're too apathetic to write a protesting paragraph and ping the e-mail to MA, why would you imagine sourcing a new silencer or re-packing an old one would be a priority?
That's a lot more effort than an e-mail.

I don't agree with the new noise limit and I remain annoyed at the legislation.
However, I'm convinced only a penalty will bring about the required change in Riders attitudes.
It may yet come to every Rider being knocked back at scrutineering. Oh boy, what a shit fight!!

If the noise limit had been insisted upon at the Nats, it appears two Riders would have cleaned up the entire Championship between them.
The five who made an effort to silence their bikes could have battled over third place!  
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: scrampics on June 13, 2008, 07:17:55 pm
  Hubby wasn't noise tested, but we made every effort to quieten the YZ down.  Repacked the muffler, running standard exhaust.  It really ticked us off as well.  >:(  We were 'petrified' at the thought of being tested and outed of by chance the bike was over.  To think that only two bikes....and people turnin' up with straight out pipes, that really makes one see red real quick. 

  Don't agree with the legislations either, but if we don't pull our fingers out, it's going to get a whole lot tougher.  Fatboy, we will never hold any decision personally.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on June 13, 2008, 09:35:12 pm
Guys,
I dissagree that there was no effort to divert MA from the 96bda course, there was a considerable effort from the riders and the Commission and a hefty lobby was made. The issues are really bigger than MA in so many ways; their concern is the reality and that is the huge loss of venues to ride your bikes on. Making an exemption for Classic MX wasnt ever going to be on their agenda no matter how much we protested. MA simply has no choice but to blanket all with the same requirements and be seen to be doing it. The noise debate isnt over and I suggest that there will in some areas be a lowering even further of the limit, may be not in VMX but Im sure modern stuff will be at 92/93DBA one day.

I have to say that I was really dissapointed with the lack of attempt and lack of concern for noise at the Nationals, there were bikes that were not muffled at all and were very loud - 117.2 DBA.!!!!! We have to be able to do better, there was a Bultaco MK7 250 at 93DBA so its possible to get better results and what really gets up my nose is that due to the lack of rider recognition of the problem there will be a report to MA on noise at the nationals and MA will most likely come down pretty hard on us all.

What I can say is at the next nationals that I will be attending as the eligibility scrutineer I will be recomending that all non muffled bikes be sent away untill rectified. Sorry, if you dont get with the programe your going to stuff it for all of us.

MA wants VMX to be viable, is prepared to give the sport some slack and will be happy for us to be complient to a few basic needs and the first one is that you will need to be seen to be making an attempt. Re pack your muffler, get one if you dont have one, start a discussion on what to do not what you dont want to do and it will go a long way to letting the matter slip into the past.

211commissioner
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GD66 on June 13, 2008, 10:15:18 pm
 Dead right Dave, that's what I attempted to get across back on page 14, in reply #201. But in light of recent events, it seems to be a waste of breath. Well, they'll sharpen up one day !
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mboddy on June 14, 2008, 08:43:02 am
Well I have been taking it seriously.
A new silencer for each bike and I also bought my own noise meter.
After all that, if I get beaten by someone putting out 110db at the titles then I'll protest them!
Come on guys. Pull your finger out. We need to be able to still race in a few years time.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on June 14, 2008, 10:35:20 am
You guys have to remember that 85% of the riders there do not read the forum or there moms, they wouldnt have a clue about the noise reading issue or even what loud was.

No one went out of there way to build a noisey bike, they just dont know any better. 

Some of these chaps come out once a year, others ride in clubs where there isnt even any talk of niose meters.  i saw my first meter at the nats, and only knew about it through the forum.  I would go easy on the piss poor riders, id be shooting across the bow of MA for piss poor education and advertising of it.

INfact prior to the Title ( and still probally) the MA web site and wizz bang email newsletter didnt mention one thing about a AUstralian title VMX in tassie.  the is a distinct lack of interest in education or promotion by MA to its members and i mean to ALL disciplines and that means us Too

I would find it unreasonable for any normal person who is not on the forum to have been able to fully understand the niose consideration, for many like most rules, its how it has always been.  ANd basically testing 5 bikes at random, didnt really explain to the other 101 riders that the niose test meant somthing and its implications.

Its no point only telling the 5 you picked they could be protested, they know that you told em when you tested, but alas some of the other 101 roders wouldnt have had a clue what was going on out there.  IF you wanted to make it clearer and progressed the Vintage nationals so that they can look at being quieter for next year, why was it not discussed in the riders breifing or in the wrap up at the presentations ?

This forum is probally at the cutting edge of VMX discusson and info. you need to understand that without it how much would you actually know ? even some on this forum still cant get there heads around it, so some random rider wouldnt have a clue.

I think you need to stop generalising that riders are out to get away with niosy bikes and spend more time pissing on MA to get there shit together and EDUCATE and Publicise the Recommendation to look at there niose levels and making there bikes quieter.

I personally took 3 spare pipes in the van incase i was over the magic number, not being one of the 5 tested i still have no idea what my bike blows, so next year will be another guess and a road trip with 3 pipes.  IF MA or US where serious about Niose ratings there would have been a testing and education tent At TASSIE with flyers and other info, an open and honest area for testing on the meters set up for folks to test there machines in a non threatning way. 

Thats if they were serious.  Otherwise its just a speed limit, you can put signs up all you like but you need to explain it and show it to make it make sence.

And lets hope that guy from MA e-newsletter gets his shit together this time and writes up on the Tassie titles

MY understanding is the Moderns will be 88db in less than 5 yrs thats the target in the states which will no doubt filter here
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: scrampics on June 14, 2008, 02:42:30 pm
  We were told about noise testing at the last meet of the Tassie Scramble Club last year.  That it wasn't a matter of where and when but we WOULD be tested.  It wasn't just the OZ VMX forum that we found out about this situation.  Fatboy was very clear about it.

 Agree that the Nats were an opportunity that wasn't used to its fullest potential, but I don't ride and I knew about the new regulations and what they mean.  We still don't know if the YZ is over or not, but we really made the effort to meet the new guidelines.   Until the rules are enforced for everyone, if you go over, you don't race.....
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Wombat on June 14, 2008, 03:04:23 pm
I think you need to stop generalising that riders are out to get away with niosy bikes and spend more time pissing on MA to get there shit together and EDUCATE and Publicise the Recommendation to look at there niose levels and making there bikes quieter.  says Freaky.

I agree; and it looks like this thread is getting a second wind...
I'm not sure there's anything new to add as we've gone from protesting to accepting the new rule, albeit grudgingly.
It was not discussed through the Membership and Clubs as the MA Charter claims is done.
It was decided on by a 'select' few with a slightly larger circle of input from another group near the top of the tree.
Thanks to 211kawasaki for your last post; that gave me a better understanding of the whole process to date and I can see where it came from and why.

But for the remainder, the 99% not in the loop (us mob), our notification is a few paragraphs in the MOMS booklet.
Unfortunately this forum is not followed by the larger VMX community - a pity really given the wealth of experience on hand.
And as we know the majority of the forum members didn't write in to protest the DB reduction.   
We have some 506 forum members at present... and was it 26 who pinged an e-mail/letter to MA?

So, though the majority on this forum were well aware of the pending/proposed change we did sweet FA to make a difference.
Whatever! Lethargy has allowed it to happen so now we must comply.
I trust we all respect the unfortunate task ahead for people like Fatboy who are expected to enforce this new rule.
How many hissy fits will they experience? How many Riders will we lose to "I've had a gutful of this shit!! and park the bikes and leave the sport?
I reckon there'll be a few.

Similarly the public try to get away with driving whilst talking on their mobile phones.
The Cops don't catch everyone but those they do can expect to be pulled up and penalised via a costly fine.
Our noise Police will likely refuse to allow the bike through scrutineering.
And fair enough; like unplugged handle bars and missing spokes and dodgy old helmets...

Rules is rules.  
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: GD66 on June 14, 2008, 03:20:28 pm
[quote author=Freakshow link=topic=1834.msg31036#msg31036 date=1213403720

INfact prior to the Title ( and still probally) the MA web site and wizz bang email newsletter didnt mention one thing about a AUstralian title VMX in tassie.  the is a distinct lack of interest in education or promotion by MA to its members and i mean to ALL disciplines and that means us To 


And lets hope that guy from MA e-newsletter gets his shit together this time and writes up on the Tassie titles   (Quote)

To be fair, Andrew the editor of the MA e-magazine responded very favourably to my request to publish information about the running of the historic roadrace nats at Barbagallo in November, and has been very accommodating and helpful in allowing us to have virtually any supportive info published, including accommodation and relevant services. I think he may even be coming over to do media work, so I think it's really up to the clubs to get involved and push their respective barrows to access this avenue of publicity, rather than to expect the editor to be psychic and know everything that's going on. The contentious issue of noise limits has proven that MA is far from outstanding in terms of info and communication, so there's no reason to think Andrew is getting much more help and guidance from within than we are. He seems like a good guy, so maybe future nats promoters should note this opportunity, and slip it into their publicity portfolio.


Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: firko on June 14, 2008, 04:18:15 pm
This is getting very old. The rules state that we have to conform to 96db so whether you like it or not,  get over it and conform. My Maico comes in under 96db without any loss of performance or period integrity so stop whingeing about and get your bikes to do the same. It isn't rocket science. If you don't like it, there's always tenpin bowling.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on June 14, 2008, 05:07:34 pm
think your off track on this one, it got legs again over folks not knowing AKA publicity outside the forum and the information to test and conform and why there was a lack of complience.  not refusal just ignorance.

And with respect GD 66 that andrew from MA if he has a paid postion should know dam well what and when an australian title is held, its in the freakin book FFS, he wont need to be any think other than doing his job to know the event is on, and publicise it, appart from the fact its the countries highest level of vintage racing you would think it would rate at least a prequel notation in there junk mail over some of the other shit they reported on in the last 2 issues.

heNCE IT SUMS UP MY OPINION ON MA EFFORT TO PUBLICIES AND ASSIST RIDERS TO MAKE DB LEVELS.   IF they can hold session for everything else like ladies day or whatever you would think they would committee a working party to asssit riders in mechanical knowledge and ideas to make there bikes more quiet and get it out there.

Unfortunatley its a piss poor effort to go here is a rule so fuc you you all can meet it.  That from a Motoring body is less than a effort it think and giving a years grace or whatever is just as pissweak , it doesnt offer ideas, methodoligy, products or options on how to make a bike quieter.  

IF any group particularly MA was serious about making it work they would be doing as much education and assistance to make everyone be able to get there bikes to a level.  LIke i said in last 3 years i have never seen a niose meter nor know how to find someone that has one, nor seen any real ideas other than the 'old repacking concept' that would assist anyone in trying to get there bike to a lower reading.

Remember not everyone is an old retired toolmaker or metal worker, so to palm it off as simple fix can be insumountable for many.  For a reality check on that, just take yourself out of your area of expertise and see how clever you are.......... i dont know....... say build a web page in under 15 mins ? rebuild a PC to run on unix ? Script PHP ?        hey its not rocket science.....

ahh but then again i can ten pin bowl.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 666 SOS on June 14, 2008, 06:15:08 pm
96 decibels I dont like it  and i dont really want it but if it keeps the sport alive so be it i will strangle the bikes but after seeing and hearing some of the bikes at the titles i can see this being a huge shit fight as bugger all would pass and some of those that would; changed them after beeing checked My opinion is races are going to be won or lost by protests.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on June 15, 2008, 07:04:37 pm
I guess this could go on and on forever. To quote The Life of Brian "Somethings actually happening Reg!" Tell your mates, get on to the guy without a muffler, go buy one yourself or re-pack the one you have. MA (in my opinion) are not trying to stuff our sport and I doubt if they would want ever to not allow anyone to ride so long as they have made an attempt to address the noise issue.

There were heaps of bikes that had made an attempt at the Nats, what was interesting was that some of the attempts didnt work for varoius reasons, lets ditch this thread and open one alond the lines of "what works" or how to start to reduce the racket your bike makes.

In on my way to do it now!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on June 16, 2008, 07:10:43 pm
Thats the idea 211. 

Discussing Options and ideas and good advice on what actually works would do great things.

Some time its just in the knowing, who know someone might stumble onto a great idea or product that could make em millions. Just like tip x

Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Tim754 on December 23, 2008, 07:31:14 pm
 and I thought this thread had gone ........quiet ........... ::)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: paul on December 23, 2008, 07:39:24 pm
i just saw that this was when ross was quilting lol :Pn  thaTS ages AGO
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: YSS on December 23, 2008, 08:05:54 pm
Oh not Decibels for Xmas ::) , please  bring back the Suzuki Footpegs instead :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Hoony on December 23, 2008, 08:15:21 pm
Oh not Decibels for Xmas ::) , please  bring back the Suzuki Footpegs instead :D


Suzuki footpegs, i still have nightmares about a heap of them chasing up a one way dead end street. Scary stuff indeed. i need a therapy season after that mega thread.
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on January 06, 2009, 09:23:00 pm
PPS while on the publicity thing..   why are there no Aussie dirt track Vintage title championship results in this years MOMs 2009 or am i missing it  ?

Tassie is in there so what gives ?  MA and andrew or howerver it is thats running the show still suck arse.   this just makes it even worse if they have left it out, wankers, shows there level of comitment to Vintage yet again,  but i could just be blind and missed it.  :D
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on January 06, 2009, 11:21:07 pm
well im looking at the hard copy and i cant see the vintage DT, shows long track but nothing else.  Typical disrespectful MA crap nad they want us to fill out there Survey, they can survey my arse if they cant even pull there finger out and get this right, if i was a placer i would be spewing my name wasnt in the book or Aussie title holders ( assuming im looking in the right part)

Being on some web site means shit all, you want it in writing so you can hand it on to your kids, anyone can fudge a web page.

its just not on.   ( disclaimer if its there - sorry for all the fuss   ;D)

PSS i have spoken to some people and youll have your copy next week ali.  ;)
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: number 87 on January 07, 2009, 01:59:52 pm
Grabed my 09 MOM and Freaky don't ring the optometrist your eye sight is fine..... DT Nats results are'nt in print - neglectfull bastards maybe they should be called MI - Massivley Ineffective.....
15 years away from the sport and Im fast learning shit has not improved!! 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on January 07, 2009, 11:41:18 pm
well thats a crock of shoit they are both legitmate Australain titles and both should be in there, cut back on a half page add or there own MA photos, pricks, wish i had know that before i did the survey, if it aint closed off yet im going to let some shit fly
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: number 87 on January 08, 2009, 09:16:01 am
I'm bringing my shit flinging shovel..... Have not yet done the survey...... but Im gonna!!!
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: 211kawasaki on November 11, 2009, 05:32:45 pm
yep, and still they turn up to meetings with ear splittingly loud bikes. Its not that fact that noise limits have been imposed its that lack of compliance to those limits that are the issue. The arguement all along has been for the preservation of facilities as a reaction to the loss there of.

The days of having a muffler on at Machinery and not in the race are over.

211
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: mike1948 on November 11, 2009, 05:50:44 pm
The message is not getting through.  Loud bikes must be excluded.  The sad thing about Conondale nats this year was that at the riders brief on day 2, the track Steward was forced to tell riders who passed machinery with mufflers on, to refit them, as it was so obvious they had removed their muffling immediately after.  I went for a walk between races, and saw quite a few bikes, mainly 4strokes, with no muffling whatsoever.
On the last club meet before the Nats, the BMCC had a noise meter so people could see how their bikes went.  I spent an afternoon rebuilding the muffler on my Maico and tested 93/94 db.  Very worthwhile, yet some would say, after what they saw & heard at Conondale, what a waste of time.
Mike 
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: fatboyracing on November 11, 2009, 09:38:54 pm
Perhaps we need to exclude all bikes that dont comply and see how quickly riders start to take the new rules seriously, May be we could test every bike the day before the Nationals and only bikes that pass will be allowed to start. I hope it doesnt come to this but as a noise tester and a vintage rider I think this is where we are heading to try and save some of our venues from the noise police and councils.96db for all vintage MX and DT we need to start to act!


Fatboy
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Freakshow on November 12, 2009, 02:33:15 pm
It wasnt a  Vintage meet at canberra was it ?  its all those full grids or 4 strokes drumming out the Drone thats the problem.  All well and good sticking it on the VMX guys but the battle for MA is the moderns, until they do everything else is window dressing.

How can modern events get exhaust exclutions to 102Db just becuase they are FIM standard pipes ?  thats the excuse MA use on the Road and track, the exhaust where made to comply with the FIM DB so they are compliant, everyone else who is doing the right thing on club days on ther pissy little vintage floggers is getting pinned, the cause is all the 450F's out there now banging out the DB's
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: ianscr250 on November 12, 2009, 05:47:09 pm
Hi guys Now i havent read the whole thread and im to lazy to read 20 pages
but heres an opinion
decibels  if your to loud change the muffler
if you dont                    you dont race
if ma dont fix it, its up to the australian riders to elect new people
MA is identical to ACU (80'S) there a bunch of guys who think there doing the job right and not getting anywhere fast . so get of your arses and put in writing the things YOU the rider wants done YOUR the silly bastards paying them with your fees  your the boss's enough of you write and they will listen
Title: Re: Decibels
Post by: Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout) on November 16, 2009, 09:25:30 am
Anyone seen the earthworks the ACT club has done to mitigate noise at Fairbairn Park?  Incredible amounts of earth have been brought in and/or relocated to build sound mounds five or sixe metres high around parts of both the MX and the dirt track where exhausts point towards populated areas.  They've put fences up top for spectator viewing, which means of course great vantage points.  VMXMAN and I were at the dirt track yesterday to watch the DT Junior Nationals and can confirm the viewing is par excellence.  The sound mounts at the dirt track go virtually right the way round the track.  They've had the official noise tests since doing the earthworks, and come in under the limit - full points to the club executive for making it happen and those that participated in construction.  One more major hurdle overcome.