Where have all the old boys gone

[Freakshow]

In some crazy way i think we are all agreeing on the same thing, 3 big events in the year, Dirt nats, MX nats, and the Cd. All are seperate promoted and individual.  I guess taking a note from firko, whats the next step ? how does all these 8 pages end up being used to initiate somthing positive. OuR MAsa is run by inbreeding and youll never get mother and daughter to agree to anything they dont like or want to pass on, so what else can be done on a national level rather than than state lobbying to leverage our combined opinions for a better vintage sport ?

[no.13]

Giday AJVMX age groups were definitely in the Supp Regs but my initial point was you must have 10 riders to constitute a Championship Class, now if we had only 6 riders in the over 50s they would then have to be grouped with the next age group down say the 40 to 50 year olds, if you only had 3 of that age group then you still only had 9 riders and there fore not enough so you would have had to go to 30 to 40 years old which may have had 9 riders so all of a sudden through no ones fault except lack of rider entries you had everyone lumped together into one age group. Now because of late entries as a rider you find out about this just before going to the event with the outcome that some riders pulled the pin and were not racing as an all in age group which meant smaller fields again and riders that may not turn up to the next event. M point here is that if we got M.A. to drop that rule to only 5 riders needed to make it a Championship class we may be able to entice some of those riders back. The other point is if you have a meeting where the riders are not happy for whatever reason you are making it that much harder for the next Club to even want to put up their hand to host this event because of low numbers.The entry fee was $100 plus an extra $20 for every extra bike.At Coffs we do everything we can to keep that below $100, but with an M.A. fee of $3000 plus an ambulance fee for us of $3000 you have a starting $6000 that you have to find before you add all your other costs in.

[AjayVMX]

Thanks for the info Don.

I asked the question because there is the argument being put forward that having the age classes available will solve the problem.  My point is that the age classes WERE available for both Nationals events this year.

But as you point out the age classes struggled to meet the minimum of 10 to be a viable championship class...

Clearly the age class thing, while a factor, is NOT the primary reason for a lack of attendance at the Nationals, as they just didn't enter in sufficient numbers, period.  As far as the entrants were concerned, the age classes were happening (being in the sup regs).  They had no way of knowing that their age class would be combined with other classes, when they actually made the decision to enter or not.

On the cost/accessibility issue the MA fees, while considerable, are not any concern of the riders when deciding to enter either, unless the entry fee is pushed up to stratospheric amounts.  When promoted well, national title events also have more significant streams of sponsorship revenues, that can easily offset the increased MA fees to some extent, if not completely.

Personally, I consider the $100 entry fee for a National Title event to be very reasonable indeed.  It probably should have bene more than that (in 2007).

It is small change in the total cost associated with riding in the Nationals for most entrants, when you take Petrol, Accomodation, Food, Bike tyres into account (just to name a few).  Even if the entry fee dropped to $50, in reality that's not going to suddenly bring in 100 more riders.

So from my point of view, the pendulum of blame for lack of attendances must swing away from age classes and cost/accessibility and here we are, back at square one. 

Q: Why don't more people enter the nationals? 

A:  There simply isn't enough people currently racing pre 78 VMX in Australia now for there to be a large dedicated group that will go the extra mile to race the National titles.

What we all have to do is get the overall participation rate up and then events like the Nationals will take care of themselves, I believe.

[TM BILL]

Q: Why don't more people enter the nationals? 

A:  There simply isn't enough people currently racing pre 78 VMX in Australia now for there to be a large dedicated group that will go the extra mile to race the National titles.

What we all have to do is get the overall participation rate up and then events like the Nationals will take care of themselves, I believe.

Spot on AJ 

[211kawasaki]

I agree with AJ, also our Kawasaki rider #13 makes good sense, I feel that if women can have 6 to make up a national class then we need to adjust our 10 to be as one with the girls. I think that if this was the case then the Wagga nationals for example would have been very different. The Wagga club had the alterations very late to their program, They had to make the class alterations due to the poor attendance, I just don't know how to get more to enter but have an idea that as the ages of the guys get older we need to focus more on the age class especially the over 50 stuff to get the like minded older guys together.

tanner

[husky61]

AJ

That's just about summarized the issues associated with this topic. Nice job

[firko]

 I stand corrected about the age groups being offered at both recent Nats and sadly agree that although I firmly believe it's an important part of the Nats concept, it by itself isn't going to bring riders back. The Wagga Nats was a great meeting run with half of the potential riders. Where were those 70 plus riders? They definitely exist Ajay, and have all raced recently. The Nepean pre 75 meeting had entries around 100 and only a small percentage of those riders were seen at Wagga. There was recently a big meeting in S.A. yet there were no South Australians to my knowledge at Wagga. If we add the large number of keen Victorian Vintage Dirt Track racers from VDT hot spots like Mildura, Shepparton and Bendigo who didn't show and the large number of Quensland no shows, we have to ask why.

These punters are all out there enjoying their vintage racing but they are opting not to attend the Nats. The problem ahead is to find out why and convince those riders to return to the fold. Perhaps the good word of mouth stories from Coffs and Wagga will help bring them back, I dont know. I thought I knew the answer but I'm not too sure now. Everyone I speak to reckons he's going to Tassie for the VMX Nats and I hope they're right. The costs will definitely have a negative impact on mainland participation in that event but you can bet it'll be a great meeting. Let's hope that we can solve these problems sooner than later.


   
 

[AjayVMX]

Firko,

I think you're right, the older riders have been at least a little active (especially in NSW) in the last 24 months and maybe they are still out there to be "convinced" that racing the Nats is a good idea.

One thing about the age class debate that I didn't mention is that I think there could be a perception with some of the older riders that the character of the Nationals has changed (and possibly it has) with the advent of increasing numbers of younger riders who will be on the same track at the same time, even though they won't actually be scored in their class.  This perception may be enough to discourage them entering in the first place. 

The only way out of that situation as far as I can tell is to form race grids primarily based on age of bike and rider (e.g. 40-49 pre 75), and only split the races into capacity classes if the numbers justfy it.  That way the older riders will have a realistic chance of forming a 40-49 race in their own right, but of course those that 125s may be at a disadvantage (especially in DT where power is much more important).

There is one important point where I would strongly disagree with #13 and 211, that is that minimum numbers to form a National Championship class should NOT be reduced.  If it was to be done, there are two undesireable consequences that immediately come to mind:

1.  What is to stop people using the 5 person criteria to create possibly double the number of classes during the day, making the race organisation even more difficult than before?

2.   Decreasing the minimum number of entrants to form a class further devalues the title, "National Champion" and if taken to the extreme level, could mean that you have so many National Champions awarded on any given day as to make it complely meaningless.  Not good.

Changing the class minimum numbers is a band-aid not a cure in my view.

Oh yeah, another thing that has probably worked against the pre 78 brigade in the last two years in NSW in particular (and therefore the Nats held in NSW this year) is that the pre 78 register was stillborn (again), which was a great pity.  I understand that the pre 78 register is again being reformed (which is a good thing), but I feel that the pre 78 guys have been disappointed a few times now and may even have given up on the idea of racing at all.

Of course this doesn't explain the apparent lack of numbers from Qld, Vic, Tas and SA for Coffs and Wagga...

[Freakshow]

I explained the SA reason for at least 6 riders back in the original Wagga post, it was dated the weekend between the State VMX and the Final round of the State DT title, no one had the time or the inclanation to risk a bike.  The timing of the event was shite for us, but that was covered in the other original post.

Accessabilty/Timing............. its long way to drive to race against 6 other blokes, its no excuse but no one could be bothered and thats the reason i coulndt be shagged.  LIke you are all eluding too , if im going to drive all that way and take time off work you need to tempt me with a bit more than a few laps round a track.

In SA at our rounds we dont pay the ambulance squat, we all give a gold coin dontaion at the gate, are they privatised over there ? 3K seems a load of money for them to be onsite.

[no.13]

Giday Freaky no the ambulances are Gov. run but it cost us $1000 per day to hire them and 2 people.Coffs was only going to be a 2 dayer but when we expected more riders than we got we had to make the decission early for the Supp regs and so couldnt change from the 3 days hire which you have to book way early.

[Doc]

Here's my 2 cents worth..so far as I can see things should remain status quo..to add more titles for differing ages will detract from the meaning as stated. I admit I am probably not what 1 would call old but I can't see a problem with the format. Maybe once you are over 50 there could be supplimentry class that could be run as a non serious thing for those who don't want to ride hard. The big problem is getting numbers into the sport..as stated a lot of the older guys are giving it away due to many reasons but the feeling I get here is many are not willing to open the doors for the younger riders nor do they wish race against them Why not?? I don't get it..vintage motocross needs new comers young or old! Ultimately the one riding the bike determines at what speed it should be ridden and if you are a slower rider you should try to remain off the race line and be aware of quicker riders coming through. Personally I reckon we need the younger riders no matter what the format. A titles event is just that and naturally people will take it seriously, how seriously is entirely up to the individual.

[colmoody]

Doc your right, you dont get it and probably never will.

[oldfart]

Been interesting reading this thread as it has spun it's yarn .Okay I live in Sunny Queensland and most of the Discuusion has been centered around running the events in the Southern States .... yep I agree on that .
Cost is a determining factor when you race interstate and somtimes clash with work commitments
this is why I will be limiting myself to two major racing events a year and the rest will be club events.

[Nathan S]

I've just re-read this thread from start to finish, and in among a heap of positive and (hopefully) productive discussion, one thing keeps bubbling to the surface:
Many of the old blokes want age-based racing, but even when they're offered it, they still don't turn up.

So is the age-category thing just an excuse? It sounds better to take shots at "17 year old lunatics" than admit that you're nowhere near as competitive as you used to be?

[/mild irits]

[Doc]

no worries colmoody..ignorance is bliss