Author Topic: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils  (Read 69326 times)

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shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2009, 11:58:48 am »
I will expand this post to include more information to assist with Ji, 090 and LWC's information later on, as I have other committments today,  but I will handle the issue of the "Potential Contamination and Non -Conformance of the Motul 800" as this is a seriuos matter, and needs to be addressed urgently as this is not normal.

As part of an oil firms Quality Management System (QMS) we have set procedures to handle any reporting of "Non-Conformances" and what has been described by so far 3 separate entities could have possible consequences for product quality and performance (ie:failure of the motorcycle to be sufficiently lubricated). I havent seen the product of course but it may sound like an unsatisfactory blend with additive clumping from then being mixing insufficiently at the right temperature?? I cannot be sure.

What all three of these people (so far) need to do in order to handle this professionally and get some product replacement/redress/product recall (and eventual answers by the manufacturer) is to first Identify the Non-Conformance which you have done, then "Identify the defective product" in your possession, so go down to your garages & sheds. I would also drain any fuel from the bikes tanks.

We then decide what action to take? The action you should take is to do an inventory of your stock on hand, note down the batch numbers on the bottles and/or cartons (maybe the Date of manufacture appears on there as well, note that too). If the batch # is not on the bottle it may appear on the carton the shop has that holds either 12 or 24 bottles of 1 litres, if they havent thrown it away. The bar code may be OK for traceability.
Gather your purchase receipts for the oil as proof of where you bought the product and the quantity. Perhaps you threw them out of the car window on your way home so your wife doesnt find them in your pockets to see how much money you spend on your bikes.

You need to quarantine the product so that it does not get used by anyone else. Contact the shop or wherever you bought it from so that they can quarantine the stock on the shelves/stands, they then need to contact the wholesaler/importer to then contact Motul in France to take remedial action.
If you guys can work out if all your stock on hand has the same batch number......hopefully it is isolated to the one batch as is usually the case, but the batch gets broken up and sold worldwide..........a sample of the bottle (hopefuly with these lumps) needs to be sent to the Importer and then sent express to Motul for lab analysis. Open up the bottles you have in your posssesion and examine for lumps (This sounds like an oil breast self examination!) and pour everything back in and close it up.

DO NOT use the product on hand until further notice upon hearing from Motul through their supply channels what the problem is. Sometimes they do not tell you what the issue was, they will just give you replacement product. Motul, through their worldwide distributor network then need to conduct a product recall of the suspect batch from all their dealers and shops and put ads in the variuos motorcycle magazines to notify past purchasers of this recall. This should happen the moment they are notified of this Non-Conformance. The importer should have this in their procdures as well.
Motul will understand this system of procedures as they are ISO9000 certified so if you do the above you are doing the right thing by them and yourselves who spent the money on their product. They will appreciate the feedback (Not the local shops and importer as it is a pain and hassle to send stock back to the importer)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 03:43:21 pm by shortshift »

oldfart

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2009, 12:48:26 pm »
Bar code   3 374650 018348  of my batch

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2009, 07:02:11 pm »
090, The top of the range Caltex fuel is fine as it comes from either Shell or Mobil in Vic, BP in WA and Caltex in QLD...........The issues with Shell Optimax (Ultimate is the BP grade that is very good too) are ongoing and something was not right when it was launched some 6 years ago. it is why people who run their bikes on Shell prefer the 95 grade. When it first came out I tried a tank full out of curiosity and I almost ran out of the Mobil 8000 so rode into a Shell garage at filled up wth Optimax. I took off down the road and when the Mobil was finsihed and replaced with Shell in the float bowl the difference in ridability was profound. With a steady throttle opening cruising down the road the speed and power dropped off requiring me to open the throttle a little more to maintain the same speed. I went back to Mobil or BP. A few weeks after this lots of publicity came to the fore about Optimax from cars and bikes. Shell lost the supply to the Dutton Rally, Targa and other major events due to the issues. BP took over this contract.  Shell had to backpedal somewhat and about 2 years ago launched V-Power 100.

To expand Lozza's comment about the use of 95 octane fuel see below correspondence between myself and Fuels2Race in Sydney a few years back. Do not discount the use of 95 fuel it may be better, in fact I will try it for next weekends Vinduro at Harrow:
Q3. Any advantage to normal sports car with ECU tuned to suit EPA standard and 95 Octane fuel?
A.     Yes, absolutely!! Firstly, most factory built ‘performance’ cars are set to take advantage of common and widely available unleaded 95 RON petroleum fuel (which can also vary considerably in quality and the time of year due to the 4 main, summer, autumn, winter and spring blends produced by the majors) from the majors’ petrol station network, however, most standard ECU only work around 70-80% engine potential to allow for everyday driving such as in traffic, bad maintenance, primary lubricant dependant engine wear and high mileage. Secondly, it is the engines volumetric efficiency and construction parameters which depict what octane level it can actually use when performance is the main issue, which is also why there are so many ECU mods available. Thirdly and the most important is engines use heat to produce power and not all the driving power (energy) is necessarily reached at maximum volumetric efficiency or RPM, a lot of driving power (more in line with the engines torque) can be had at lower engine revs from a fuel with additional energy features producing more low/mid power as well as peak power.
        To further understand the difference, I give you an example from tests we carried out on a BMW 325i, a Porsche Boxster and Mercedes E200 Kompressor, all come set to run on premium unleaded 95 octane petrol and all have computer fuel monitoring. In the case of the Merc, it ran virtually identical mileage, between 8.6-8.9 litres per 100 K’s at 110 KPH highway speeds on 95 or 98 commercial fuel, however trialing our 100+ it used less throttle setting at the same 110 KPH and only consumed 7.3 litres per 100 K’s, showing the 100+ fuel to have more energy. So what does this mean or translate to, well in performance tests at Western Sydney International Dragway and at Wakefield Park Raceway, a number of tests were done but taking 2 seconds off the 0 to 160 acceleration test by nothing more than a fuel change from 98 octane commercial fuel to our 100+ proved substantial.
        We now have a whole range of racer feedback on differing combinations producing certain dyno engine or rear wheel power gains and certainly a mass of improved and consistent track performances.

Another point is that I found that the higher the octane of fuel I ran in the 2 stroke the less throttle opening I had to use, I rode one enduro with only 1/4 to 1/2 throttle openings all day, that 102 race fuel was amazing.
I didnt try anything higher than 102 and cannot say if by the law of diminishing returns it would get better with anything higher (Then we start talking about $6 a litre fuel here!!) before performance or benefits declined.

http://www.maximausa.com/products/2stroke/supermpremix.asp Mamixa is one of the USA's leading motorcycle oil manufacturers and from what I have learnt from their R&D over the last 25 years they really are the innovators. As part of my technical training in the late 80's I read about Dick Lichien's pioneering work (Maxima's owner) on blending castor oils with POE's that was an exciting time for the motorcycle industry. Other oil majors then copied Maxima's work to bring out A747 and other Castor/Synthetics when the patent expired. I used their products way back then but then went 4 stroke and used another brand. I would have full confidence with their products due to the research and testing that has gone through with this product. Unlike some other US oil firms that are owned by outside family investors, not engaged in the company, Maxima is owned and run by enthusiasts whose entire lives are dedicated to perfecting a product and are not scared to trial and error new ideas, so you can use their products with full confidence..
The Maxima Super M is on the slightly heavy side of viscosity grade so run no richer than 25:1. I would personally use their Super M Injector (That is still suitable for premix, it just runs a lighter base fluid) which is half the viscosity of the other Super M and you can use that to 20:1. Also their Premium 2 down to 20-25:1 in our VMX bikes is more than suitable.

http://www.maximausa.com/technical/oilmigration.html An excellent post here about 2T oil migration. It would have been great if Maxima also stated which one of their oils was used in this test as that would help to make more sense when interpreting the figures and drawing conclusions. From my interpretation it was either their Castor 927 or SuperM Premix heavier grade blends.
I have already addressed the situation with the Motul 800 and am surprised that 090 is the only person so far that has quarantined it and not gone ahead with mixing and running it in your bike. Perhaps you were making coffee and added 2 lumps into your oil by error.  It appears to be additive agglomeration from a blending malfunction, unsatisfactory blending or an issue with the additive supplier. Perhaps the additves were not heated sufficiently before beign added to he base fluids in the blend vat. The Motul lab will be able to tell in a jiffy once they get a sample. I am also surprised that Motul have not issued a product recall as this seems like a widespread problem where you would think at least someone would have bitched to the importer or to Motul in France and commenced an investigation and recalled all the stock of the affected batch number. This is 2 months old now and nothing seems to have been done.

We need more people in the future posting photo's of their pistons running variuos oils and mixes. Ji seems to have everything in order with the operation and running of his bikes and if all of us ran such a tight and professional maintenance regime many of our problems with breakdowns and wear would not occur as often. What appears to me with Ji's piston is that it is at the very edge of the graph with regards to its minimum acceptable oil ratio. Any leaner and you may start to expereince more scuffing. With more oil now (of a different viscosity grade) you will experience more HP gains due to greater lubricity and friction reduction inside your engines. You will find it much easier to mix and blend with your fuel. No more spoons required.
It will take time for riders to change their premix formulations with new oil to then determine its affectiveness.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 09:30:11 pm by shortshift »

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2009, 07:23:24 pm »
is there any chances the suspect batch of Motul is isolated to one area? oldfart and 090 are in QLD. could it be related to humidity or storage temperature? just a thought
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

090

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2009, 07:28:29 pm »
Thanks very much for the advise. Good to here Maxima is a good thing. To be honest, i have always been wary of Motul as it is only big here in Oz and pretty much no where else in the world. I never put any Motul product in any four stroke i owned either. It was always the easiest product to buy is all. I will find out if the injector M is imported and if not, i will ask for a box to be put in their next shipment.
I will take the suspect bottle of 800 straight to the importer (Link Int.) as they are close to me. Saves going through too many people wanting to put it in the too hard basket.
Cheers, Brad.

Offline oldskool

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2009, 07:35:20 pm »
hi every one i use motorex speed mix 2t at 200ml per 5 litres dont know much about this topic but so far the pe 175 seems to love it i could be wrong is this a good mix for my bike thanx gary

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2009, 07:55:20 pm »
is there any chances the suspect batch of Motul is isolated to one area? oldfart and 090 are in QLD. could it be related to humidity or storage temperature? just a thought
No LWC, these products are designed to be very stable in all operating climates with regards to their shelf life and storage. I will also ask Stewart if he has experenced this as well, he is on the Gold Coast. (Oh OK Oldfart is Stewart!:-)

Oldskool, that is an ideal mix. Remember that you need to mix 200ml of oil PLUS 5 litres of petrol to get a 5.2 litre total blend. Some guys make the error in mixing say in your case 200ml of oil to 4.8 litres of fuel. This will in fact enrichen your mixture slightly. You need to wind your PE175 out to get the best from it so add a dash extra to the mix.

And good idea 090 to go straight to the importer to get the quickest action. Linc will courier the suspect package to France for evaluation. Ask that you be contacted when the results are supplied. Once the reasons are determined Linc should replace what you have bought. Linc should contact all their outlets to quarantine the stock until results are out. Motul CANNOT sweep this into the too hard basket as they are obliged to carry this through all the way to maintain confidence in their products..

Wasp, Is the Motul man there the local Linc representative, or a rep flown in from France or perhaps their regional office in Singapore? I dont know how far the Nats are but this issue needs to be bought up immediately with Linc, Motul will also appreciate speedy action.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 10:27:38 am by shortshift »

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2009, 08:06:49 pm »
200mls to 5 Liters of fuel is 25 to 1 ratio.

I think one of the reasons Motul is popular is that they have had a lot of exposure through ADB and donate a lot of products for prizes etc. I have a number of free premix ratio cards that came free with ADB mags i bought over the years when ever they had a special feature on oils.
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2009, 09:11:52 pm »
Wasp, I am not a customer of Motul currently so I have not been affected by the product in any way. It is up to the people affected by the product to make the call. Best to get only ONE person to discreetly contact Linc, give them the sample and they will courier it to France pronto. That is the extent of their obligation for the time being.
090 indicated he would contact linc, perhaps give him a contact name.
It is amazing that on one forum of a niche group of riders we had 3 people so far with the same issue. Imagine in the larger world of KTM250/300EXC owners who run 800 if they have had complaints.
What the average Joe does in this case is if he experiences this problem he just goes out and buys another brand of oil, which is a shame as really the problem may continue. "It is too much hassle to complain and easier just to buy another oil". His problem solved, shows the extent of his brand loyalty!

Since this thread has also reached into fuels, one other important point to consider is the use of fuel which contains Ethanol. Ethanol is simply wood alcohol primarily made by CSR (Commonwealth Sugar Refinery) from sugar cane that is used as a fuel extender. Its use is more politically motivated to help struggling farmers in some parts of the world to sell their crop of sugar cane. It can also be made from many other types of vegetation. It also panders to the Greenies as less holes are drilled into the ground to extract crude oil.
For us 2 stroke users we should never use it. Why? because for one reason the ethanol componant (which is not a hydrocarbon) will not marry itself with another hydrocarbon or synthetic hydrocarbon that is your 2T oil. I will have to dig out the technical post that discussed this by the API (American Petroleum Institute). The consequences are for us is that when you mix your fuel together and you have bought either 5% or 10% (E5,E10) ULP with Ethanol then your oil charge will only mix with either 95 or 90% of the "fuel". When you run your engine you will have 100% mix going through it but only 90 or 95% of this mixture will carry oil with it. So in fact when you thought you had a 32:1 mix you in fact have a 28.8:1 mix. This may seem a trivially small difference but for riders who really care about what they doing then it becomes significant. At 50:1 it becomes 45:1.  So dont purchase your bikes fuel (even for 4 strokes) that contains Ethanol. Ethanol fuels will also eat your plugs out and make proper carb tuning/jetting and obtaining plug readings almost impossible.

Offline AjayVMX

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2009, 10:18:40 pm »
For us 2 stroke users we should never use it. Why? because for one reason the ethanol componant (which is not a hydrocarbon)

Excuse me????   Ethanol not a hydrocarbon???  :o

CH3CH2OH is a hydrocarbon in my book, albeit one with an OH attached to one of the carbon atoms....  ::)

Please explain?  ::)

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2009, 09:12:08 am »
I have rung around and no bike shops in Brisbane have Super M on the shelves. I would have to order it and wait until it comes in. RRP is $26.00/l
There is stock in the warehouse here in Brisbane.

Super M is a blend .
After I get and idea of how much it will actually cost and how long I have to wait for it I will let you know. Super Cheap is 5 minutes from home and has shelves full of TTS and 747.

Ji

firko

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2009, 10:09:53 am »
Unfortunately I threw the empty Motul bottle in the bin at Conondale so I'll never know the batch number. It's interesting that Oldfart, Brad and Doc purchased their Motul 700 in Queensland while I  got mine in Sydney (actually a mate purchased it for me). With such a wide geographic area covered between us three you could presume that the "problem" was/is be far more prevalent than just us three. It's fair to believe that many of the users wouldn't have noticed the irregularity in the oil. I noticed it while my mate was mixing a batch of fuel for both his 490 Maico and my trials Maico. We looked at each other when the "blobs" went into the fuel drum, shrugged our shoulders and promptly forgot about it until the subject came up here. Both bikes performed beautifully all weekend with not a hint of drama.
I'll be very iterested to see what response Brad gets from Motul.

I used TTS for 20 something trouble free years and only went over to Motul because my mates who ride more often than I told me it was the ducks guts. I've no complaints at all with Motul but may just go back to TTS or once the B&S is sorted, Castrol R, if just for that wonderful smell!

Congratulations Shortshift, Ji and the other braniacs for helping me understand something I'd previously never given much thought to. It's threads like this that make us all that little bit better versed on the ins and outs of operating an old bike. I've been around 2 strokes for 40 years and I've learned a shitload from this thread alone, which proves that you're never too old to learn!

I
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 10:17:12 am by firko »

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2009, 11:30:04 am »
Ajay is quiet right in that Ethanol is part of the Hydrocarbon family  but the difference that I was making is that it is part of the Alcohol family like Methanol or Methylated Spirits largely distilled from plant life rather than fossil fuels (However research is being conducted to produce ethanol out of landfill gas, coal seam gas and other natural gases), and not part of the other family of Hydrocarbon families which make up our normal transport fuels and lubricating oils.
The alcohol types are not soluble (I should have perhaps used this term before and made the differentiation) with these other hydrocarbons resulting in the issues I previously described. The same way Methanol is not soluble with normal hydrocarbon lube oils requiring castor based fluids. Since mentioning the term "soluble" it is also a good time to mention the word "Miscible" as these words get confused. Your normal 2T oil is miscible with a slug of E10 94 octane ULP but the ethanol componant is not soluble with it that raises the issues described.
If in 10 years time ALL our ULP is laced with around 35% or 70% of Ethanol (and other Alcohol based plant derived solvents) then 2T formulators will have to use Castor based oils as a larger percentage in their blend. This will then add potential complexities and challenges to riders when mixing and storing their fuels.
One of the bright lights is that our future transport fuels will be made via the Gas to Liquids (GTL) method which will render Ethanol virtually obsolete and make the pressure groups who are against ethanol production, because it uses crops for food production (which should be used to feed the poor and starving they argue) for fuel for developed countries. Plans are under way off the NW shelf for this happen.

JI, Maxima is one agency I wish I had under my belt for Australia. It would be the only "automotive" category of product for me currently, the rest are all industrial related. Like any brand it all boils down to logistics of supply and distribution, servicing the customer base and having the market accept your product over the other. It is worth chasing up the Maxima importer to check stocks of SuperM Injector. As with many stockists/local agents they are not 100% sure which direction the market will swing to and dont want to get stuck with dead stock, so they may not have a particular grade on hand right now. I feel that A747 will sit on the shelves at Supercheap for a long time. Perhaps you were their only customer!

Firko you have good mates who would go out and buy oil for you. Maybe you bought the Bourbon or the meat.........your story about how one person uses a product from either referrals and Word of Mouth (The best form of marketing, costs no money for the marketer) is so prevalent not just in oil, but things like tyre choice......someone talks good about say Metzeler MC-4's then everyone buys them in that particular circle (DirtBikeBlokes is one example) and the importer runs out of stock and wonders what happened.
Typical guys, you saw something foreign go into your fuel mixing drums and proceeded to continue mixing and ran the fuel. Did anyone feel if the lumps contained solids or just soft gel? Motul France will determine that very quickly.
Your other example about how one guy makes his mind up that something is the "ducksguts" is also widespread. A customer from the ADF said to me once that he thinks one of the weapons oils I supply is S$#T, I said why? Because all the others say its S%#T.   Well it looks like a Kangaroo, jumps like a Kangaroo, it must be a Kangaroo...............but in fact its a Wallaby! And you question them further and they put too much product on gumming everything up, too lazy to reapply 3 times a day with a squirt and prefer to flood the piece once a day so they dont have to go back until the next day................
But you want your bike to smell nice so OTHERS can smell your exhaust fumes!!! Instead of using a straight castor oil like Castrol R30, consider using the more up to date hybrid  blend Castor/Synthetics such as the Maxima Castor 927, Shell Advance Racing M or Silkolene Pro KR2. These will give you much less worry or risk than a pure Castor and still throw out that fragrance we all love.
If you are using a pure mineral 2T oil or 2T mineral/Synthetic blend DO NOT be tempted to throw in even a capful of R30 into your mix and these products are polar, do not mix and will form terrible black sticky deposits once they come into contact with each other. Now that I think of it this could be the cause of some problems riders experienced in the past by trying to make their own shandies, for reasons to either fortify the film strength of their mineral oil or to make nice fumes.
Other good leading brands to look at are ELF (now owned by Total France) and Rock Oil (UK) including locally blended Shell VSX2 to name a few more.
Trials Maico?? I will have to look at one, never seen one before.

Offline matcho mick

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2009, 11:43:28 am »
better add me to the list,(my memory just kicked in!,too many late nites in the shed  ;)),the last dregs of my Motul 800 was 'lumpy",i just thought (at the time) it was my imagination/aeration effect when i shook the bottle?,was running 40-1,just pulled barrell off,theres still oil in the crankcases,piston just wiped clean of oily carbon,probably down too the fact it just does 3 lap races on dirt??, :P
ps chucked my empty too,(oops  ::))
work,the curse of the racing class!!
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Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2009, 11:48:09 am »
Mick can you please post an image of the piston.
Or send the jpg file to me and I will do it.
Can you please tell us how long it was in the motor, maintenance, fuel used .......

Thanks
Ji