Author Topic: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils  (Read 69221 times)

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Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 08:30:25 pm »
I havent personally remagnetised flywheels myself it but i know a guy whos into old stationary engines who has done it for me and it it did work. I know you need a high current power suppliy and you gotta suss out the correct polarity of the magnets. If you dont do that you can end up reversing the polarity and thats not good. There should be info on the web somewhere about how to do it.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:12:47 pm by LWC82PE »
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Offline Freakshow

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 08:47:14 pm »
i got a Dt rotor on a bike thats not runing, that i was told has lost its magnatism, well wondered if it could be done so it can be eleimated as suspect
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 10:04:38 pm »
Freakshow, I dont recommend you put any lead in the fuel :-)  ........Tetra Ethyl lead (TEL) was the additive that was put into Leaded fuels and the only leaded fuel now available is Avgas100/130 (800PPM of Pb......Shell Avgas LL has about 200PPM) from your local aerodrome that you need to sign a book when you buy it.
Now there was nothing wrong with lead in fuel. The lead that was contained in the fuel dropped out of the atmosphere and was laid to rest near the roadside due to its weight, it did not float off even in high winds and pollute school children with lead poisoning as many aroused activists lobbied the Government about.

Avgas 100/130 made your engine run hard and cool as well without overheating. But the high lead amount would have shortened engine life.  Run 91 ULP in a moto and see what I mean after running Avgas, it will be like a different bike, poor throttle response and way down of power & torque.

The switch to ULP was a large con where the oil companies spent billions to covert their production facilities and service stations in tankage to cater for this scam.

It was the best form of octane improver available, but the lead salts did chew out spark plug electrodes far quicker, rot out exhausts faster and cause rust in engines that laid idle (Stuck exhaust valves was a common result).

I would recommened you contact a specialist fuel supplier (Scotchers Race Fuel and oils in Wakefield Park is a starting point) for some quality ULP racing fuel 100+ in pails and these fuels are more expensive but contain additives that are far better than the old TEL and you can feel some real power when mixing them with really any oil.........let me say that my own trials of higher octane fuels in 2 stroke bikes is that the higher octane the more torque the bike produced. I could keep it in a higher gear before downchanging. With 102 fuel it was like riding an automatic, just left it in 3rd and pulled cleanly from low revs like a 4 stroke.
Also with more oil at say 20:1 the bike enjoys more compression from better sealing of the rings, longer ring life from both more oil and less blowby staining the piston skirt, and more immediate throttle response. This better sealing is very important in a 2 stroke as it utilises a very short part of its stroke timing to create compression. I am trying to find an article I had about some CZ owners who solved their tuning issues by simply running 20:1 from 40:1 and will post it when I do. Remember that 40:1 is HALF the amount of oil of 20:1.

Castrol TTS that you mention is a 100% synthetic ester that is just briliant, so you are already using a synthetic.

98 Octane pump gas is a compromise, contains lots of light ends (aromatics like Methyl Benzene akin to paint thinners as an octane booster that is a worse carcinogen than lead) and varies from batch to batch, and cannot be stored for long periods as the light ends evaporate even through your plastic tanks. Buy your fuel from outlets in areas where there are many prestige cars so the fuel gets turned over more often.

EVO550, with storage of fuels or more correctly their shelf life, Castor oil mixes have the shortest of shelf life as the castor oil is less soluble in Gasoline fuels, so it will drop out and separate over time, sometimes as quick as a few days, so mix it on the day really well and as much as you think you may need. Keep your fuel dry as Castor oil (Brake Fluid is predominantly made of the same stuff) is hygroscopic (absorbs water) and water obviuosly destroys the capabilities of your fuel to burn. I love the smell of burnt castor oil too but just be aware of the requirements for its handling and mixing. It will also give you the runs if you breath too much of it in.

Back in 82/83 MC-1 would have been the product in your book but that has been revised as stated in my opening post both by the oil & bike manufacturer.. ......Would you today run such a small amount of oil in your Maico and feel secure when opening her up???  I have found more oil quietens the bikes up mechanically......less rattley!.  Perhaps try 32:1 of R30 next time, or even 25:1 and perhaps get to know a different bike. You may need to enrichen the position of your needle (raise it) and increase your main jet.
I would also trial Motul 710 at about 25-32:1 for the reasons at the very top and check performance.

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 10:28:11 pm »
My info is that lead itself wasnt put in the fuel to increase the octane rating. It came about after the war and the technolgy developed from the aviation industry and was passed down to cars/bikes. the lead allowed engine builders to build higher performance motors and get more power out of them. As a side effect people found they had to do less valve grinds back when heads were cast alloy with the valves running straight into the cast alloy. The lead provided a cusioning effect on the valve seats. Then alloy heads came in which had hardened steel inserts and improved combustion chamber design and compression ratios were increased as the high octane lead fuel allowed this.

Now quite often i read about or hear from customers asking about unleaded conversions on their 60's/70's/80's bikes and that they have been told by others that they need 'conversion to unleaded fuel' and need hardened valve seats, which is also one of the biggest cons out there aswell and people i know are getting ripped off with getting so called 'hardened valve seats' in their alloy heads which already have hardened steel valve seats. Also those things you put in fuel tanks which also put tin deposits in the fuel is another money making scam. these scams have been validated by various fuel chemists. Yes you will get a tiny bit more wear on the valve seats with unleaded fuel but its like only 5% its very little and you really have to be riding mega miles to  see this wear and in which case the whole motor would be due for a rebuild, new valves & seats or a regrind anyway.
To convert to unleaded on 4 strokes all i do is advise the customer to use premium unleaded or higher octane fuel and then i make adjustments to the carb and plug heat range to allow better better combustion at lower temperatures and then plug sooting is eliminated.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:33:49 pm by LWC82PE »
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 11:35:56 pm »
My info is that lead itself wasnt put in the fuel to increase the octane rating. It came about after the war and the technolgy developed from the aviation industry and was passed down to cars/bikes. the lead allowed engine builders to build higher performance motors and get more power out of them.

As best as I can tell, the lead was a knock suppressant which effectively raises the octane rating - but its kind of a 'cheater' way of doing it. Its sort of like taking the cooling fan off your car's engine and then recording a higher power figure - yes it has a higher figure, but you haven't really made the engine produce more power either.
 If you put the lead into any of the modern 'premium' ULP fuels, you'd end up with an even higher octane rating. For the relatively brief period when you could buy both, it was a known trick to mix Super and PULP together to get an extra degree of knock resistance.

Octane rating is one of the all-time smoke and mirrors acts. Basically, if your engine doen't need the extra octane, then using a higher octane rated fuel does nothing but help empty your pockets.
Obviously, if its knocking away, then extra octane is a good thing.
Similarly, if you've got an engine with good knock-sensing EFI, then the EFI can tune the engine to make the most of the extra octane (actually that example is a bit arse-about - in reality, you only get the benefits if the engine/EFI is tuned to run on PULP - if you're running on ordinary 91 octane dishwater, then it will pull back the ignition timing, and increase the fuel to ensure the engine doesn't knock).

Back in the old days, manufacturers found that they could build engines with higher compression ratios and more ignition timing if the buying public had access to better (more knock resistant) fuels. So adding lead to petrol did mean that we could make more power - just that it happened indirectly.

The real reason for taking lead out of petrol is because lead kills catalytic converters, and catalytic converters are an easy way to keep exhaust emissions low (esp in the USA in the 1970s before EFI was worth pissing on).





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shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2009, 10:46:08 am »
If I can use an example to illustrate a point made by someone else on this forum, when I rebuilt one of my VMX bikes the previuos owner ran 40:1 (after I quizzed him on what he has done to the bike since he got it) and when he told me this my heart sank as the manufacturers recommendations was for 20:1. His rationale was that, "we use modern oils so we can cut back the amount of oil we use...20:1 is old fashioned". In all his good intentions with the logic he employed it was not in the best interests of the machine. Totally inaccurate information he has been given or heard from someone, as I will explain a little later.

Some background data first: When I got the bike it had still 40:1 in the tank with Motul 800 as the previuos owner ran. I went over the bike and part of my preliminary inspections was to pull the cylinder to examine the internals. I was dissapointed as soon as I lifted that barrel off and saw the scuffed, scratched and burnt brown piston skirt, and equally worn cylinder and most importantly there was hardly any oil on the surface of the piston. I assembled everything again and ran the bike for 3 months at variuos events and trailriding until i pulled everything apart for a rebore over Christmas.

I use a top 2 stroke tuner for all my work, Ian Tate from TRE Race engines, and I bought a .25mm oversize for it and Ian called me back and said that 0.25mm doesnt clean up, so i went to exchange the piston for a 0.5mm oversize that cleaned up fine. Upon discussion with Ian the engine has suffered from overheating & wear due to not enough oil. (The bike was also running too lean in the midrange when I bought it, reed flutter etc, and have since solved this by raising the needle to highest position)

The overheating showed in the area of cylinder where the exhaust port is that was elongated outwards from the top of the cylinder to the very bottom hence that area when i called into the shop did not clean up. This explained the massive blowby and loss of compression.

The bike also detonated quite badly when i first got it. Anyway before the rebuild i simply put the bike together and ran 20:1 and ran OK but was down on power due to the wear. When I took apart the cylinder to send it away to get rebored the oil this time just oozed off down the piston skirt in comparison. I was happy that the engine was adequately lubricated. It had as much oil there like any splash lubricated 4 stroke engines..........this dispels the myth that 2 strokes dont/cant get enough oil.

To now explain the previuos owners rationale that modern oils can be run at leaner ratios let me use this analogy. You are about to service your car's engine, it has say a 20W/50 mineral grade previuosly (eg: Castrol GTX) and you want to use a synthetic oil in the next oil change (eg:Castrol Edge 5W/40). Ok if we use the standard current popular 2 stroke philosophy instead of pouring in the normal 5 litres of oil into the sump we only put 2.5 litres, "because the oil is now synthetic and we can use HALF the amount to oil to do the same job!" It is like a riders logic in going from 20:1 to 40:1.

Crazy logic that does not work and will only lead to oil starvation, over-heating (oil is used as a heat exchange medium to carry away heat from moving parts), deposits (I will post Gordon Jennings article soon) and in the case of a 4 stroke rapid oil degradation and wear. Would you put half a litre of synthetic oil into your KTM 450EXF instead of 1 litre of mineral grade? The only difference in a 2 stroke is the oil doesnt sit around for a 1,000 KM circulating around the engine, it gets spat out after a few moments, or seconds at high speed. A 2 stroke engine is described as a "total loss lubrication" system.

So in a 2 stroke you need to maintain "Film Thickness", synthetics in some industrial or other automotive applications like gearboxes, bearings and air/gas compressors can get away with less or thinner oils that are synthetic due to their better lubricating qualities (as Lozza rightly refers to the term "shear strength" that refers to an oils ability to maintain a film under an opposing load, ie: the conrod belting down on the big end bearing in a 490 Maico/KTM 495) and adherance to metals in near boundary lubrication situations...........but in cylinder lubrication in an internal combustion 2 stroke engine where high loads, high heat, aggressive combustion by products that need to be collected and neutralised and massive destructive loads on the big and small ends occur.........then you need to maintain this film thickness and by going to a synthetic does not mean that you necessary use less. Inside an air compressor cylinder we can wind down the rate of oil feed of a synthetic oil as we do not have the horrendous conditions I describe above. A synthetic oil @ 20:1 will do a better job of cooling, cleaning, preventing wear & lubricating than a mineral oil at 20:1, but you dont necessarily use less.
In a 2 stroke cylinder we also have the challenge of those sharp irregular ports that serve only to grind and strip metal off the piston and rings if not enough oil is present. This is why you need more oil to lubricate the sharp connecting surfaces in those regions where the ports are. They act as cutting blades like a wood plane thousands of time a minute.

Using less of the expensive oil you have purchased to perhaps make you feel better in removing some of the pain is totally false economy and will cost you much more down the track in parts and labour when it comes time to rebuild your machine prematurely. And in our case with VMX bikes you may never be able to obtain the parts again, so by using more oil in the first place it preserves your pride and joy so you use it longer.

A 2 stroke engine doesnt have an oil filter to filter its oil by virtue of its design and operation. Hence you need more oil in your premix to work as a flushing agent to wash out constantly the build up and production of deposits. The oil does the same job as a filter in a 4 stroke to remove these harmful deposits inside your engine that are being made with every firing of your sparkplug and that is twice as much as a 4 stroke engine. So more oil like 20-25:1 is the go than 40:-50:1.  Less oil creates more deposits. A 2 stroke engine also does not come with the luxury of an oil cooler like some air and water cooled 4 stroke motorcycle engines do as part of its design. So more oil is needed to perform this function to carry away heat build up. (See my post on why 2 stroke engines less than 200cc need more oil as a coolant).

Since my rebuild in one particular bike in October 2007 I have pulled the engine's top end to assess wear patterns a few times till recently, and to re-chamfer the port edges, and the piston after many hours of riding on 20:1 is still burnt stain free (no blowby) clean as the day i put it in, bore still perfectly round after running the dial indicator through it, expansion chamber and piston top hospital clean. The packing in my silencer is still dry and unclogged with "Goop" as Evo550 calls it, I refer to it as "Spooge"............as when i got the bike it was glogged (Lighter 2T oils @ 20:1 dont clog up the packing as do heavier grades @ 50:1) Yes it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to see that.

Below is an interesting extract from the Vinduro.com website that I retained from some characters that illustrates the "No Brainer" philosophy of using more oil:

"I'm a complete noob about tuning a two stroke but I can relate my
experience about my CZ 380. I was running about 50 to one mixture and
was having the problem of loading up and having to drain the crankcase
of excess mixture. Cousin Weedy-Joey Poole was parked next to me at
Diamond Don's a few years ago and let me use his mixture that was 20
to one. My CZ had never run better since it was new on his mixture. I
think it was probably related more to carb jetting than anything else.
The higher mixture ratio (50-1) being too much gas to run properly. I
have a 36mm Keihin on my CZ......tm"
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 01:14:34 pm by shortshift »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2009, 12:59:58 pm »
Hi Shortshift,
Great post.
The best I have read for some time.

I was told to run 40:1 747 in my Maico MC250 1977 after it was rebuilt.
To run it in I mixed 30:1 747, but oil was pouring out of my exhaust pipe so the next ride I mixed 40:1.
The bike ran fine and there was no oil flowing out of the pipe.

Until I read these postings I thought everything was fine.
The reason I had oil flowing out of my pipe was because of the thickness of the 747. Diluting it with more fuel helped one problem but caused another by the sounds of it. When the engine was rebuilt two months ago I did notice that there was a little blow by which can be explained by your findings. I also found that my engine suffered a very small amount of detonation at the very top end of the revs. After speaking to a very experienced Maico rider that also uses 747 at 40:1 he told me that after every ride you have to ditch all the pre mixed fuel or detonation would occur. This was believed to be due to the fuels loss of octane over time but now I see that it could have been due to over heating, oil separation or water absorption.

Can you please tell me what fuel, oil and mix you run in your CZ ?

Keep up the good work

Ji

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2009, 07:23:17 pm »
For Lozza and other 2 stroke riders who use Castrol R and other Castor based oils I would suggest you read this for some handy hints especially on page's 4&5 for 2 strokes on getting the best out of your castor based premixes.
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/r/R30_40_M_B861.pdf

Ji,
This is an extract out of the A747 Product Data Sheet, "For some competition applications, particularly for very high engine speeds (typically greater than 15,000 RPM), Castrol A747 is the prime recommendation (see the Product & Technical Data SheetB1109/95/1).
.............Now, when was the last time your Maico reached or exceeded these RPM?? It would turn into a West German stick grenade on two wheels.

Heavy oils need HIGH RPM (and resultant extreme air flow & turbulence) to be pushed through the mechanical componants of an engine, and you need this extra viscosity for them to stay inside the crankcases long enough to do their task of lubing the bearings down under. At your engine speeds they will only STEAL power and lead to "Oil Hangup" (a real term in lubrication not something I have come up with) in your exhaust system frustrating you. We see this same phenomena as an example in industrial refrigeration compressors when the client puts in heavy oil against my advice to compensate for wear and take up clearances (Doesnt want to spend the $ on a rebuild) and then his electricity bill and maintenance costs skyrocket from oil drag and lubricant hangup throughout the system. Then he blames me that my oil is no good!

The Universal law of spending money is that the more money you spend on something the better it will be and perform. Not so with many things and especially so with 2 stroke oils.
Ji, the builder of your engine would have thought that to protect his rebuild then the costs of protection will be passed onto his customer for the life of the bike, you and your wallet...........and one way of getting around this was with expensive oils as an insurance policy to reduce any warranty exposure.
These oils are expensive not because they deliver better performance for your Maico but because of small (read : uneconomical pain in the A$$) blend sizes at the lube plant, and also base oil & additive costs purchased in uneconomical volumes including sometimes most singnificantly sponsorship costs of race teams etc that add about 50% to the price of the product. This is true with tyres and other parts where a large proportion of the production is given away free to racers and the humble riders like us pays the costs for this policy.

In your case you are using a too heavy oil for your application that is not atomising properly into fine enough molecules................. read the bottle, "Not to be used in conditions under Zero Celcius".........that is enough to tell you that you are loosing heaps of performance by using this product from what I can determine in 2 areas.
Detonation can be caused by some 4-5 factors (not limited to Ignition timing, preigintion by hotspots/carbon, fuel octane, overheating, lean jetting, incorrect fuel mixture/contamination etc) but one possible cause in your particular case is that the heavy oil at the low to moderate RPM you are running at is creating a moment (nanosecond) during the ignition cycle where the air fuel mixture contains globules/molecules/particles/droplets whatever of oil that quenches the flame front, prevents full and efficient fuel burning in the time allowed (~34 degrees of crank rotation) leading to detonation. It is why these heavy oils are for small engine HIGH RPM use only, Go Karts, road racers around 15,000RPM. The bike shops generally dont really care what you buy as long as a sale has been made and the average guy at the counter would have zero product and more importantly application knowledge for a 2 stroke that their shop perhaps havent sold in 15 years. That scares me as the buying decision is left to the punter with the bike!!

It is EXACTLY like when you have misfuelled your car with Diesel Ji as diesel has a heavier viscosity and density and also a higher flash point. What is happening inside your Maico is also like when you have a worn engine in your car and you have engine oil going into the combsution chamber past the rings or valve guides increasing the compression ratio causing detonation. I would like to add here that the local Volvo car dealer swears on 2 litres of diesel in a tank of petrol as a very good injector cleaner. In fact injector cleaners use diesel/heating oil as the carrier for its additves.
Also synthetic 2T oil is a very good injector cleaner for diesel engines (like 300ml per 75litre tank full in your 4WD when filling up) and I have a website that discusses that if anyone is interested. Perhaps a good home for any spare oil that riders may have when changing their type of oil.

So when you have A747 ,as in your case, you have two ingredients in the air fuel mixture when the plug goes off that have different flash points fighting with each other and the higher flash point hi-vis product overwhelmes the fuel component (that makes the power) like a fire extinguisher......it is like spraying foam over an oil fire.............great loss of performance.

Another area that is of concern in a 2 stroke engine that run these heavy oils is the phenomena of "Puddling". As in mud puddles you see on the track. Low speeds/RPM's and/or heavy 2T oils create puddling in the bottoms of your crank cases where the low speeds cannot move the oil through high air speed of the descending piston and centifugal forces from the flywheel towards the cylinder and up through the intake tracts. This is what is also happening in your bike. It is not just oil in the "puddle" but a large % of fuel as well.
Regardless of what oil you use you will get puddling for example if you left your bike idling for hours on end, but heavy oils exacerbate that.
Outboard manufacturers have solved this issue by drilling a hole at the base of the crankcase and fitting a one way valve to drain out this oil and redirect it towards the bearings. Understand that an outboard engine has a vertically placed crankshaft and with multiple cylinders as in a V6 there is a lot of oil buildup at the bottom crankshaft outlet.  This happens when trolling slowly and when you open the throttle on the older engines without this drain valve the engine creates a cloud of smoke, runs rough, fowls your plugs and upsets the greenies birdwatching along the shoreline who then ring their Member of Parliament.
KTM are looking at direct oil injection (as well as direct fuel injection into the cylinder) for future 2 stroke models where you will have a system similar to VRO on outboards (Variable Ratio Oiling) where according to the RPM and load on the engine an exact amount of oil the computer (ECU) tells it to will be injected to the bearings. I think it would be an advanced system like the old Suzuki CCI method.  At idle you may have 150:1 and at wide open throttle or at redline 32:1 or something like that. This will reduce emissions and make them more greenie friendly in the Government.

By the addition of more fuel into your mix, will, as you have found fixes one thing and brings on a new issue. The solution in your case if you are a Castrol fan is to use Castrol Power TTS that is the correct viscosity at 25:1 as base line, if this works well for you then try 20:1 with this oil. Similarly for users of MC-1 try a switch to Bel-Ray H1R Synthetic 2-Stroke Racing Oil or Bel-Ray Si-7 Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil and Motul fans who are using 800 try a batch of 710 at richer ratios.

You will find these oils will remain in the exhaust gas stream more to be expelled out into the atmosphere (horrible thing to write if a greenie from the EPA is reading this!) rather than condensing, dropping out of the gas stream and adhering to the internal surfaces of your exhaust system perhaps pooling at the lowest part of your exapansion chamber where it bends up again. Your packing may last longer too.
Ji, I would share this knowledge with all your other "experts" that you have spoken to AFTER you have tried my above advice first to make sure it works for you. It should solve many of the issues that you experienced.

I dont own a CZ but I know several others that do and and being the crafty, passionate and meticulous enthusiasts that they are, they run 20-25:1.

Below is the link to the legendary Gordon Jennings article about 2 stroke oil premix ratios written in 1978,

http://cid-407d7ef0965d3991.skydrive.live.com:80/self.aspx/Pure%20Enduro/oilpremix.pdf
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 09:35:26 pm by shortshift »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2009, 08:38:25 am »
Hi Shortshift,
Thanks for the advice.
I will try TTS at 25:1 in my Maico and see how it performs.

Sorry about the CZ question I thought you were Shortshifter a CZ rider and all round good guy from the Sunshine Coast of Queensland.

I normally use BP Ultima fuel but last weekend I could only get Shell V Power and I must admit the bike ran better. I normally top out in second gear around the Nudgee second sweeper or lug around it in third. But last weekend I was powering out of the sweeper in third and changing to fourth just as I straightened the bike.

As I said I do not use 747 to save money as it now costs nearly $40.00 a litre. I used it because the engine rebuilder recommended it. I would not be so hard on the man to suggest he has another agenda as he also uses 747 at 40:1 in his Maico's which he has quite a fleet.

The Maico manual states that the bike develops 38hp at 7800rpm with a max torque of 3.5mkp at 6400rpm. They also recommend 20:1 with two stroke oil or 40:1 special high quality oil, Castrol super TT. Bel-Ray MC3 or 100:1 with Maico MC-GP-100 mix oil. Fuel should be High octane 92+ oil mix.

With that said I rev my bike like a Jap engine keeping it up into the top end of the revs. The Maico's are meant to be ridden by short shifting and using the torque. I have tried that style and found I get passed. So, I keep my bike at about say 5000 to 7000 rpms all the time on the track except in knife corners. The fellow that rebuilds my engines has told me to stop revving the engine and change gears at least 1000 revs sooner, but like most I do not want to be passed. I have never experienced heat fade I have found detonation just before I change gears at the very top end of the revs but that was only when I used month old fuel. I now drain every drop of fuel from the bike after every race and only fill it again on race day with same day purchased fuel. Since I have done this I no longer get any detonation.

I really have enjoyed this post and you seem to know you lubricants.
I look forward to more Tech stuff in the future.

Keep well
Ji

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2009, 08:49:28 am »
I would post an image of the replaced piston from my Maico that has raced one season but I will have to remember how to photobucket again.

The piston shows signs of blow back on the exhaust side only and virtually no wear. The milling marks are still visible all round the piston.

Ji

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2009, 09:06:01 am »
Here we go.
This is a 1 season old piston from a Maico with 40:1 747 mix.

Ji


Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2009, 11:22:49 am »
The small end bearing shows little sign of wear.
The wrist pin moves in and out of the piston as if it was new.

The blow back mark on the piston mirrors the exhaust ports.

As can be seen there is very little carbon build up.
There was only a small amount of oil sludge in the bottom of the crankcase, not really worth talking about, certainly not 20ml or anything. The crankshaft was shiny with oil and there was no black goo or anything.

Ji

Offline Lozza

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2009, 06:03:49 pm »
There are a couple of minor technical details that are incorrect in an otherwise correct thread.
Lead slows burn rates, THAT gives the anti-knock properties that gives the octane rating. However in the late 90's a breakthrough allowed tuners to use MORE compression and timing than they used with leaded fuel.GP 125/250's all use Castor synthetic oils and they don't rev to 15,000(except maybe on over rev momentarily).There is no need for oil to hang around in crankcases at high rpm it is needed more at LOWER rpm due to the longer time between intake pulses.Never ever heard anyone refer to oil 'drag' in 2T engines, only oil making bearings skid instead of rolling.
If your ignition, fuel, timing, compression, squish and jetting are correct it highly unlikely you will get detonation and even more unlikely from types or amounts of oil. If oil quenches flame fronts that will supress detonation not cause it.I would doubt that oil would do this anyway.
Who would trust a Volvo dealer ;D ;D ;D
Ji I would love to know how you determined that you had detonation while riding the bike? Also that piston shows absolutely NO signs of detonation.The carbon wash patterns appear to be quite normal(if a fraction rich) and I think the front carbon pattern is likely to be from the return pulse from the pipe.Also your engine builder has overlooked a very basic modification that should be mandatory on that piston in a Maico cylinder.
The original Jennings  test has been mirrored by A Graham Bell and some bloke called 'spanky' in the US all found the same thing more oil=more power, and spanky's words are always apt "nobody ever killed a 2T by using to much oil"

Jesus only loves two strokes

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2009, 06:37:46 pm »
Hi Lozza,
Always good to hear from you.
You always find errors in every sentence.

At the top of the revs before I change gears the engine goes from ringing or screaming to dadadadada.
I did not know what this sound was but other Maico owners suggested detonation or fin vibration.

The piston shows absolutely no sign of detonation.

May be it had something to do with stale fuel more so than detonation, but that is why this is a forum. So different experiences can be discussed and unusual things can be the usual.

Ji

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2009, 06:41:18 pm »
its good to see photos. Perhaps you Alex can take some photos of your piston next time your inside your engine, showing the condition of the piston.
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