Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils

[firko]

Firko you have good mates who would go out and buy oil for you. Maybe you bought the Bourbon or the meat

Actually you're pretty close to the truth....it was Jamaican rum. I'll look into those castor alternatives, especially the Maxima 927. A friend uses it in his TZ 350 classic road racer and swears by it. There's that word of mouth thing again 

Trials Maico?? I will have to look at one, never seen one before.

[Ji Gantor]

I just ordered the Maxima Super M injector oil from a bike shop.
I was advised that it should be here Thursday this week and they could not tell me how much it is going to cost me until it gets here. I guess this is so they can add in any courier fees.

This is a lot of work to get pre mix oil I hope it is worth it.

I remember a story Don Newell told me.
My memory of what was fact is sketchy but this is how the story went.

Don told me that he always used Castrol 2T or one of their oils at 20:1
in all his bikes since he first through a leg over a saddle.
A few years back one of the modern oil companies gave him a litre of you beauty oil that would virtually service his engine.
Don thought like most of us "I can not wait to give it a go"
At the first race meet he seized his engine.
He then vowed never to stray again.

Not really scientific but this also adds to why riders don't buy some oils.

Ji

[Rossvickicampbell]

Firko - who owns the YZ at the back of the photo there?

ta

Rossco

[firko]

Not really scientific but this also adds to why riders don't buy some oils.

I had the same experience as Don Newell with some gloop called 'Gary Jones Racing Oil' Blair Harley told us it was the ants pants but we found (too late) that it seperated in the fuel if you didn't keep shaking the can. I had one of my two ever seizures using the shit and 30 years later I'm still shitty about it. The other seize came using Belray MC1 and I never used it again either. Castrol TT and TTS never ever let me down.

Firko - who owns the YZ at the back of the photo there?

Ross, my mate Paul Chippendale owns it, a YZ360 B (But you knew that didn't you )  .

[Freakshow]

Ross - Not Some tossa from Wa then ?


Hey Short shift -
Can you mix Castor/Synthetics such as the Maxima Castor 927, Shell Advance Racing M or Silkolene Pro KR2 with yourmormal 2T mineral/Synthetic blendS like tts etc.     Does the labels actual say its synthetic in the ingredient brakedowns on the back  ( as opposed to the marketing on the front).  My last bottle was shell something mineral and is red fluid, assumeng its just straight mineral, im i right in understanding thats it sould only ever come in contact with another mineral oil , or at worst a mineral synthetic blend ?

I tend to stick to the same oil but last time i was out sticks, local shop only had one choice i would use, so when it runs out ill go back but in the meantime the TM has a bottle premix and neds topping up.  just a thought.

[Rossvickicampbell]

thanks Firko - for a bike there weren't many of they keep popping up 

Freaky - what can I say eh!

cheers

Rossco

[mike1948]

I found an interesting paragraph in my Maico shop manual which may be relevant.

" New engine oil shall be mixed 1 part oil to 20 parts gasoline;  ie, one quart of two cycle oil to 5 gallons of gasoline for each race day.  The gasoline must be above 95 octane.  The engine will not get adequate lubrication with the "super" (their emphasis) motorcycle two cycle oils that the makers recommend at 25:1, 32:1 or even 40:1.
There is not enough oil in these lean mixtures to properly lubricate the engine."

I use a modern mineral/synthetic blend, but stick to the ratios I used years ago, when I never had an engine failure or premature wear.
I'm happy to go on the manufacturers recommendations.

[AjayVMX]

Ajay is quiet right in that Ethanol is part of the Hydrocarbon family  but the difference that I was making is that it is part of the Alcohol family like Methanol or Methylated Spirits largely distilled from plant life rather than fossil fuels (However research is being conducted to produce ethanol out of landfill gas, coal seam gas and other natural gases), and not part of the other family of Hydrocarbon families which make up our normal transport fuels and lubricating oils.

By the way, Methylated Spirits IS Ethanol, just not in a 100% pure form.  It actually has a mild poison added when being made to stop people buying it and drinking it. 

However, the origin of the Hydrocarbon is not relevant in any form to the discussion here is it?  Or is it?   

Because of course fossil fuels (sometimes also called mineral oils) are sourced from plant life initially, albeit much longer ago than say making ethanol from sugar cane.  Indeed one of the problems with "natural" mineral oils is that they inherently retain impurities from the process of their formation, unlike truly syntheic (or to be more correct Synthesised) fuels and oils.  The traces of impurities in mineral oils is one reason why Synthetic Oils exist - they are by definition purer and less likely to have undesireable side effects due to impurities.

That is why, after many years of trying to imply that Synthetic oils were evil and problematic, a major oil manufacturer decided to join the club and market a Synthetic oil...

[Ji Gantor]

I do feel this discussion needs to move along.

I have read quite a few test results from varying interest groups in the motocross industry about two stroke piston seizure. All come to the same conclusion which should be discussed here so all riders realise the state that is required for piston seizure.

There are quite a few ways a piston can be induced to lock in the sleeve but essentially they all stem from the same cause, Over heating.
The piston is made of aluminium which has a large thermal expansion rate. The hotter it becomes the larger it grows, while the sleeve is made from lets say cast iron which is much more stable.

This topic has breezed over the fact that the pre-mix oil is a coolant that helps stabilise and reduce heat. How does it do that.
First I would say being a lubricant it reduces friction and thus the associated heat.
Second if there is enough of it and it is properly vaporised it should act like a heat absorber as it comes into contact with moving parts and then removes this shared heat as it is forced out the exhaust port.

This said does more pre-mix oil stop piston seizure.
I believe No, or may be, but this is the wrong way to think about this issue.

This statement will get quite a reaction I am sure, but before I am branded a heretic and a know nothing let me finish.

The most universal fact to prevent piston seizure is air to fuel ratio
If you run your engine to lean it will seize!
The fuel is not only the dynamite that turns over your engine but it is also the coolant.
To much air in the combustion chamber will super heat expanding the piston or melting it to the point of lock up.
If you feed your engine 20:1 pre-mix but run the carb to lean the piston will seize.
The air to fuel ratio is independent of the pre-mix ratio.

Okay I am done for now, start the abuse and we can all study this theory.


Ji

[mike1948]

Many people increase the oil to fuel ratio, expecting this to cure seizure/overheating problems, not realising that this in itself will cause a leaner fuel/air ratio and make things worse, unless main jet changes are made.

[shortshift]

Freakshow, TTS is NOT a blend of mineral oil and synthetic oil, it is a synthetic ester with some Poly-Iso-Butene (PIB) as a film strength provider and I will discuss this tremendous additive in a moment.  (It also lists PIB as an ingredient in the Maxima data sheet, but not all manufacturers like to list it, why hide it?) In the Power TTS data sheet as it is called today (Even Castrol has to resort to wanky titles for its product today to compete with all the "Me Too's" that came out after it) mentions the claim, "Creates a tough, heat reactive layer of protection" well that is this PIB providing that. What is it? It is the product that makes Post-It notes sticky/adhesive, used in cosmetics, industrial adhesives and is also a major ingredient in chewing gum to make it stringy. Also used as cable filler for insulating Optus and Foxtel cables due to its flexibility. The guy who invented PIB did it by accident in the 3M lab  Even though it was a 3M invention the applications were then applied to Post it notes by this person and hasnt worked a day in his life after that I would presume.
It is a synthetically derived heavy "water white" low toxic, practically ashless lubricating base material that does away with the old Bright Stock of yesteryear that created such carbon problems for us. It is used in grease to make it tacky and stringy like the blue wheel bearing grease that is popular. It is also used in Chain oil formulations to add "tack" that you see between the sprockets and chain when you spin your back wheel and in Chain Bar oils for your Chain Saw at 1-2% to add stringyness . So you dont need much to add lubricity and adhesion to metal.

Castrol were clever as due to the timing of the launch of TTS it swung over a large proportion of its R30/40 users to this product. It was developed by Castrol UK with help from Castrol France of which I dispel some further data at the end to help readers understand the background development to the products they buy.
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/printsectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9021708&contentId=7040552


So in regards to your question, why would you want to mix these different type of oils together? There is no point. You need to control your premixes and never to get any standard mineral oil formulations (ie: Castrol Activ 2T replaced Castrol TT that Alexander Graham Bell also swore by, I will post the icon at the end) touch a pure organic Castor or Castor/Synthetic blend as it will create miscibility issues, precipitation of additves and incompatible base fluids from your mixture leading to black sludge in your fuel tank & lines, carb and reeds. I stuffed up my fathers TS185 when I was 14 when I dumped R30 on top of the TT in the oil tank under the seat and we had to buy a new oil tank and send the bike to the dealer to get its carb overhauled including the rotary valve replaced. Our neighbour had to drive the trailer to pick the bike up that was stopped on the Fwy when he was coming home from work. This was after coming back from the Longwarry MX and I had to relive this smell. I can still recall the kick in the butt from that!! Was he shitty!!
It is the same deposits you get when some of your glycol coolant comes in contact with your engine oil when you blow a head gasket. You need to drain the sump immediately. So even in your late model water cooled 2 or 4 stroke bike never let the coolant leak into the sump esp if it contains Ethylene Glycol.
So when you buy something in a bottle add that to fuel in the right amounts and dont put anything else in there.

The red oil from Shell you had is Shell Advance SX2 that is their semi-synthetic mineral oil 75% and 25% POE blend. I have a bottle of that from the servo in my chain saw box that i run in the saws/brushcutters at 25:1. And yes it is compatible with everything except products that contain castor oil.
One of the things that annoy me is the continued play on words. Semi Synthetic to me if half mineral and half Synthetic and that is what you expect to be paying for. Instead it is really a 75/25 or 70/30 blend and that is why some more larger multinational oil companies refer to the product as "Synthetic Fortified" not to mislead the buyer as part of their Code of Ethics. This last definition could mean 10% for all we know but is not misleading as "Semi" which means Half of something.

I want to also briefly discuss now some of the nomenclature that is written on the bottle. As 2 stroke air-cooled bike owners we need to make sure the oil meets API TC. This means the oil is formulated for air-cooled engines that get very hot. The specification calls for high temp oxidation resisitance for service in these engines. Do not use any Marine 2T oils with a TCW-3 specification as the oil is not only diluted with solvent to make it mix easier for outboards but has hig temperature performance. Do not be fooled that a water cooled 2 (or 4) stroke dirt bike runs cool like an outboard. It overheats worse in many cases than an air-cooled bike esp in slow running and some uphills. I am personally not a fan of watercooled dirtbikes and am amazed that no one manufactured bikes with a cowled or shrouded air cooled fan forced engine like you have on a chain saw or brushcutter! Ok you wouldnt see those horny barrell fins on your Maico sticking out at you and this is perhaps where the engineering department lost to the design department. Form won over function.

I said I would help people wade through the mystery of the products they purchase. In Europe there are only 2 major Synthetic Ester base oil refineries, one in France called Nyco http://www.nyco.fr/content.asp?IDR=114273&IDR2=114290 and the other in Finland called Neste'.  Nyco in their wisdom decided to value add some years ago and blend in house world class 2 & 4T oils. Nyco do not sell their own branded products to the public either retail or wholesale. You will never see the Nyco brand on the shelves in motorcycle shops. But they will sell their products to other major suppliers that then label it under their own name and distribute it all the way down to the end user which is yourselves. Why try to reinvent the wheel, invest in R&D and blending facilities when someone has already done the hard work, simply buy a fully formulated product that works, that comes to you packaged, labelled and proven to work and spend your efforts in marketing, distribution and sponsorship. Have a look at where your current oil comes from (Made in EU, etc) and I think you can work out the rest.

Here is the link off Luke's Skydrive to A. Graham Bells book and in Chapter 8 under Lubrication and Cooling, scroll to Page 159. It also discusses ceramic coating on page 164.
Other chapters in the book are worth reading and have helped me get a better understanding of 2 stroke tuning and solving issues with my own bikes.
http://cid-407d7ef0965d3991.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Pure%20Enduro/Two-Stroke%20Manuals/performance-tuning-graham-bell.pdf

[shortshift]

Mike, Stick to what has been working for you, you are on the right track, but always have your ears open to look at other ideas and think before you deviate from what your current procedure is.

Alister, Metho is nowadays "denatured" with 2% Acetone so people do not drink it. It was common before the Government made this regulation that you could walk into someones home up to the early 80's and find a bottle of Methylated Spirits in the fridge.
Mineral oils derived through hydrocracking in an oil refinery contain many unwanted or undesired ingredients such as wax that stops an oil flowing at low temperature. A synthetic oil can be custom refined to what the chemist want it to come out as by adding or subtracting a variety of gases and other ingredients over a 15-20 stage process (hence its expense) A synthetic oil has no wax, and no need for VI improvers to add to its natural wide viscosity range (ie: to make it a 10W/40)..........it already has these properties so more room for oil than addtives.

JiGantor is right, we need to get back on track, and in this thread I am happy that many new issues have been raised that even i would not have guesses would be relevant. Let me deal with each issue.

You can add as much oil to a 2T premix as you want to, but if your jetting is too lean your bike will overheat or not start in the first place. I remember engine tests we conducted where there was adequate oil in the piston/cylinder interface but due to the overheating caused by "Enleanment" (Now there is a term that not many readers would have heard of) and it is the accurate term to describe the situation we are looking at now where the heat generated leading to metal expansion of the piston reducing the gap and metal to metal contact ensued leading to seizure. Enough oil was there but it was ineffective to prevent friction from the expanding metals.
I think that, and I welcome feedback on this thought, if you are running 20:1 which is a good amount of oil for the engine, BUT your jetting was madly too lean, wouldnt you suffer first from detonation or holed pistons BEFORE suffering a bore seizure or engine bearing failure?? Its been a long day and I cannot nut this out........
In a 2 stroke (as against a 4 stroke that is splash, mist and pressure lubricated) the jetting determines how much oil is carried through as well. It is directly correlated to the jetting, so we need to ensure that the jetting is accurate for the best running of the engine, and this of course is done by riding the bike and doing all the variuos throttle and acceleration tests (that is beyond the scope of this thread).

As we all would have realised, once we achieved the optimum jetting we also had optimum lubrication, as long as we were not mixing at say 100:1. I found that as I had to enrichen my bikes to get more power from more fuel that could be used by the engine i feel that some of that power increase was becuase of the extra oil going through the engine. It sure made less mechanical noise than before.

The way Jigantor describes the process of oil working as a heat exchange medium is excellent and accurate and I dont need to add to that further.
I did touch on this where in 2 stroke bikes under 200c (well any high RPM 4 strokes as well) the oils has many jobs and its main function in a revving 125 MX bike or a screaming 100cc Go-Kart is that of a coolant. The oil is definatley lubricating but it is not its main result of being there and what we need to take into consideration is something called "Piston Speed" or the general rotation speed of a bearing.
For example under the Laws of Lubrication Theory the higher the speeds or RPM the lighter the Lubricant must be to stop "churning", drag and overheating caused by these 2 events. In any piece of equipment, whether it is an Industrial high speed reducer or a McLaren Formula 1 engine the oils needs to be very light. In this case McLaren use a <<0W motor oil (7Cst @ 40c............the 2 stroke oils that i have been discussing like TTS, SuperM Injector are around 40-50CST @ 40) that is almost as light as diesel fuel to prevent power/performance losses associated with drag and churning. The oil must flow through the engine parts extremely quick by the oil pump, then be forced through the oil filter and then forced through the oil cooler and back again. The oil in this engine if not cooled will boil away and/or "crack" itself into other fractions like in an oil refinery. I saw figures once where the oil sump/tank volume down the main straight goes through this process around 3 times a second!! The light oils at these high speeds around 14,000-15,000RPM works as a coolant releasing maximum power. An oil cannot stay hanging around between the engine parts for long periods as it will break down through overheating caused by drag which then causes friction (and a power loss followed by a likely nipup and seizure and end of the race)

In our humble 2 stroke engine we have no oil pump, oil cooler or oil filter (or air cooler like an intercooler)..........we have nothing!! The way around this is to run adequate amounts of oil which we can only offer our engines by putting enough of it in the fuel in the first place. Ensure the oil is of a acceptable viscosity which I have discussed in detail at the very beginning of this thread by examining some popular oils in the market. Then jet accordingly to this mix.
All the factors of the right amount of oil at the right viscosity will then work as a coolant (as well as a cleaner and lubricant) in your motor. As the revs rise the coolant functions increases and lubricating function decreases. When the engine is at low revs the rotating engine parts are stopping and starting and clanging against themselves requiring the oil to cushion against these blows. The crankpin in Harleys for instance gets a hammering at idle or when the rider lugs it along in the wrong gear. Until at high revs the multiple combustion events create a hell of a lot of heat where the cooling system via fins or water jackets remove heat but from the piston wall and bearing interfaces the oil is the heat exchange medium that carrys away the heat eventually out the exhaust, and to be replenished by new oil coming into the engine from the reeds (or piston port). The oil that comes out eventually from your silencer is very hot both from combustion heat and engine heat it absorbed from the metal parts. At high engine speeds much of this oil will be so hot that it will remain in the gas stream due to the temperature and gas speed and not adhere to your exhaust.

So to summarise by looking at JiGantor's question if more oil prevents piston seizure, the answer is if your jetting is too lean it will not. If jetting is right it will decrease the incidence of seizures via lubrication (keeping the metals parts apart) and cooling through heat exchange.
You also mention if the fuel can act as the coolant, yes it does that job to a certain degree when passing through the bearings but it is the right amount of oil in this fuelmix that will carry away the heat. It is not in the interests of the engine that its fuel charge enters the combustion space (For 4 strokes as well) at too high a temperature as this will lead to air density issues AND then be a contributor to detonation/preignition. It is why you got to keep your fuel tins out of the sun. Some racers keep their fuel inaa large esky with dry ice.
The right amount of oil (or more oil) in the premix will lessen this risk of fuel heating up through friction and cool fuel charges are denser and will make more power as more gas is able to enter a given space in a given time. It is why in a Turbo-Diesel (OK and petrols!) you have an intercooler to cool the air charge to eventually cool the entire fuel air mist before it is ignited. Its main purpose is to ensure the most amount of air is allowed in that given stroke. Then the compressing mixture heats up and goes bang. In our 2 strokes the fuelair mix unfortunatley has to pass through the hot crankcasespaces and intact tracts where it is heated.
One trick, (and I bring up the issue of coatings) is that tuners will ceramic coat the intact tracts of the 2 stroke cylinder to prevent the fuel charge from being heated too much from the hot aluminium.
(In one example when I used to work in the marine department, to illustrate the hostile environment inside your crankcase, a customer on a huge container ship had a crankcase explosion in his large 2 stroke diesel (that is totally different to a 2 stroke petrol engine!) where one of the big end bearings got so hot they ignited the oil vapours and mist in the air spaces blowing the inspection covers off, so crancase heat is detrimental to 2 stroke performance.....so throw your beer out and put your fuel in.) In a 4 stroke engine the fuel charge only goes through a short area of hot inlet tract where it gets constantly bombarded by cool incoming fuel air. Direct fuel injection will cure all that but that is 30 years ahead of the bikes we ride, where the 2 stroke fuel is injected directly into the cylinder avoiding all these challenges i discussed.
So fuelair mixtures passed into an engine at the right jetting will not be too lean to overheat the final ignition event by having excessive air in it.

[Ji Gantor]

Shortshift your posts are great and extremely enlightening, but from a magazine editors or for that matter a magazine readers point of view way to technical. I can see why a magazine editor would not publish this article.
First look at how many words you have used to explain your point of view.
Second look at how much disbelief you have encountered and last but most importantly
Third the oil companies pay for adds in the magazines and would not be to keen to see the sorts of things you are promoting. This could lead to loss of income for said magazine.

That said it should be published but I know it never will be.

Ji

[Lozza]

Fuel is NOT the coolant the metal is the coolant. Piston wall temps are usually 200deg C (the outer skin of the crown is probably 400deg C) the temp at which unburt fuel self ignites in a combustion chamber is around 900deg C How can fuel cool anything when suspended in air?. Crankcase temps are only 70-80 deg C  and won't 'expand' gasses as much as what is imagined.

[Ji Gantor]

The problem is and I know this is another topic and I don't want to sidetrack this topic with another one but most riders don't know how to do a spark plug test to establish the correct jetting. So some will read this thread and say I will use 20:1 mix from now on and my bike will be more powerful, more cleaner and more cooler.

After all the members that read this topic or a magazine article about this topic are looking for an answer that relates to their situation in terms that they can relate.

How many members would have the facilities, time and knowledge to jet a two stroke bike properly.

Thus the average rider will just pour more oil into their fuel and see how she goes.
This can lead to a lean air to fuel mix and seizure.
After seeing the maintenance the average racer does on his bike this added oil could be the wrong advice and lead to more riders using less oil in their fuel.

Ji