Author Topic: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils  (Read 69233 times)

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Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2009, 06:48:56 pm »
I did not bring the detonation theory up to hijack this great thread.
It was just part of my experiences and what other riders suggested, right or wrong. This thread is to explore oil mixes and how they effect your engine. I found the fact that it takes 30 minutes for a mix to have any effect on the engines performance to be very interesting.
The piston image was posted so we can see what 40:1 747 mix does to a piston over a season.

Does anyone else have images of their pistons after a season on 20:1 mix?

Ji

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2009, 08:55:17 pm »
Ji, $40 per litre is a very steep price to pay for any oil. I would have thought it would be perhaps $25 at the most...At my local bike shop, Ridersedge, they sell TTS in 4 litre packs for I think $65 and you will get better performance and engine life with this oil than what you are using at the ratios i recommended...........as I have said you do not get what you pay for in your case and all the other Maico riders and VMX owners from using these top end oils. They are wasting their money!
You will experience the better cleanliness and lubricity from the clean burning TTS and their equivalents from other company's. A rule of thumb is dont buy the most expensive oil.

Your piston looks reasonably OK and can be sanded lightly with fine emery paper checked for sizes and reused if OK. One of my pistons had that same burn marks, only much worse, under the eyebrow of exhaust port that was a result of the elongation of the cylinder outwards from overheating and insufficient oil causing this blowby. You may be expereinced these same conditions, perhaps try enriching the jet needle one circlip notch. I could bet that the piston will be cleaner when you pull your top end apart next year with 20-25:1 of TTS and 98 Octane pump fuel. On my piston now there is no brown blowby at all in this region after having a rebore to bring back this "roundness" of the cylinder.

Big Bore bikes are made to shift the gears at roughly 10% above the peak torque curve, if you rev it more than that your rate of acceleration will not increase any more. Your 250 requires you to rev it out a lot longer before changing gears as it is not a 400/440 or 490 so adjust your riding style accordingly.
The oil recomendations in your Maico manual??? The figures of 20:1 would have been written by the wise Maico engineers, the other figures of 100:1 would have been given to Maico by oil companys who waltzed through the door at some point and they guaranteed it would work in their engines. The Maico oil mentioned would have been a rebranded oil with a Maico label made by the same oil company that walked in looking for exposure and sales volume to lower their cost per unit of production.

Lozza is right in saying that high lead content is fuels slow down the burn rate, and we could see this under  lab conditions running engine tests with micro camera's in the combustion chambers watching the incoming swirling fuel charge of 4 stroke engines (film slowed down of course for us to see) and the flame fronts were slower as the octane of fuel went higher. In our tests engine we had a device inside the chamber where we could change the size of the chamber at will increasing or decreasing the compression.  It was fun to adjust the timing and fiddle with other adjustments to test different formulations and octanes of fuel. Avgas 100 burns slow in low compression motors and some people think that by adding Avgas or racing fuel your bike or car will go faster. But INCREASE the compression ratio and everything comes together to make large HP. But in my experience a 2 stroke just makes more torque and smooth power with higher octane fuels around 100 and 102  race fuels when everything else is constant. Ji saw this too.
For example your normal 91 pump gas in Australia (lowest available here.........I think in the US it is 87) it burns faster than say 95 or 98, and this is a factor in causing detonation if your compression is too high for the fuel.
Also Lead back then allowed a very mild form of EP (Extreme Pressure) additive for a 2 stroke engine (we all know about valve seat wear with ULP fuels in old cast iron non hardened heads) and this did assist with dry film lubrication of sliding surfaces as in cylinders. Now ULP fuel is very "dry" as it contains volatile solvents (like paint thinners) that do not offer any lubrication almost like and LPG engine requiring small amounts of oil injection (Valve Saver).
Also the "Ashless" nature of a 2T oil offers even less residual ingredients for offering a buffer to metal parts. In 4 stroke engines you have residual ash in the form of what is called Sulphated Ash (SA)from the burning of the detergent/dispersant additive package where it was found that a minimum of 1% SA would offer valve recession protection with engines that consumed some oil in their operation that went past the exhaust valve. Diesel engine oil have a higher SA due to higher additve content to combat Sulphuric Acid attack from the sulphur in the fuel.
My point here in mentioning other fuel/engine types is that by using less oil in your premix you are starving your engine (the metal parts that rub against each other) with the essential additives that are contained within them by the formulator to offer a chemical coating to the engine parts (very thin) where you will have chemical to chemical contact rather than pur metal to metal contact.
Castor Oil for instance has the least need for extraneous additional additive treatment due to its tenacious adhesion to metal parts. As Lozza described the term, "Shear Strength" that is a natural quality of this base fluid due to its Polarity. To define this term, Polar Compounds like Castor oil have molecules that have a strong affinity for solid metal surfaces. Sort of like our natural affinity to sexy women and old dirtbikes! These molecules plate out to form a tough friction reducing film that cannot be broken easily through shear forces (eg : cutting forces of the piston rings or port edges). They are also reffered to as having "Metal Wetting" properties to explain it another way. As in any positive quality they are "polar" and at the other end of the spectrum Castor oil absorbs water affecting its storage life and some riders have found rust in their motors from moisture being pulled in via any openings (exhaust and breather). I have seen engines an orange to green corossion all over their flywheels and other ferrous (steel) internal engine parts.

Never heard of "oil drag" in a 2 stroke?...........you learn something new every day.............it is an important aspect that needs to be taken into the equation when spending all that time and money in the workshop to optimise a bikes performance.......Oil hangup is all part of studying fluid dynamics throughout an engine.....Formula 1 teams spend millions in analysing this element..............it robs power through absorbtion almost like a hydraulic brake and is one of the hidden things that most lay people cannot see or predict...........We are all here to learn including myself.
The issues with skidding bearings in my experience (never heard of this happening in a 2 stroke engine and cannot see how as 2T oils do not contain certain additives that promote this) is when people add friction modifiers to their oil charge in a 4 stroke motorcycle application. These are Moly, Teflon, and sulphur/phosphorus brews that are detrimental to not only wet clutches, but to needle bearings where the bearings dont turn and roll over and around the crank pin but their rolling motion is stopped by these "solid" additives as virtually all metal to metal contact is stopped (which in other circumstances is great news) and the stationery bearing then "skids" around the crankpin gradually flat spotting itself. When the oil is then changed and no solid additives are added metal to metal contact (or what is correctly referred to as "Thin Film Lubrication" as in bearing applications.....hence the clearances in bearings to make room for the oil film) returns then you usually end up with a disintegrated bearing and massive engine noise. Sometimes this happens in seconds, with consequences like thrown conrods ending your ride for the day. Many a Harley engine has been lunched when the owner puts in Slick50, Molybond, Nulon or the like and wrecks his needle bearings inside the flywheels on his big end. He thought that since the engine is separate from the gearbox and clutch it is Ok to do this.
Ford had a big issue in the 90's when they put 3% moly greases in their Wheel bearings and had huge warranty work from flat spotting. They went back to the blue tacky grease with no more issues.

My point about oil creating detonation is well known fact that has been around since the engine was designed. When engine oil goes inside the combustion chamber it causes detonation. Ask any car mechanic, any foreign material entering a combustion chamber such as diesel or lube oil will lead to detonation.  Maybe I should have used the term "Dieseling" so that readers could understand more what I wrote. Ji perhaps is experiencing this rather than outright full detonation (as defined occurring through incorrect timing, fuel octane, preignition etc) so lozza would be right in saying that if all the other factors are in their correct specifications then detonation should not occur. A heavy molecule of A747 would be harder to convert into a very fine mist when travelling through the carburettor when converted to a gas from a liquid. In Euro 4 diesels nowadays the injection pressure is extremely high (6,000PSI) where the diesel is virtually a gas like LPG and some think one day you could ignite it with a form of spark plug. I believe that in future modern 2T bikes fuel injection will be the norm and if high enough pressures will be adopted then the 2 stroke premix will be atomised to a very fine gaseous form.  But I don't think you could fit such a large pressure pump on a motorcycle, but future technology with miniaturisation who knows.
It needs to be noted that our 2 strokes are somewhere between a diesel engine and a normal 4 stroke engine with its fuel. It is why in our old VMXer's cannot really handle Or need) these hi vis oils (that are also the most expensive) that really needs some more education for VMX riders as in forums like this.  It is just a case of that we love our bikes so much like our kids so we want to buy them the best (read: expensive) and end up with issues that seem to have plagued many riders in the VMX and also the modern scene. So we are stretching what the fuel systems and engines of our bikes are capable of doing so please use the lighter vis grades of 2T oils for optimum performance.

Ji, I will email that photo of your piston to my tuner for his opinion as well to see if he can interpret anything new. As Lozza said you can interpret the carbon marks on the piston to tell you if your timing is too advanced or retarded amongst other things. My bike detonated like crazy once before I jetted it right (enriched it) but the piston showed no signs of typical detonation after two long rides under these conditions. It did have a ceramic coating but that wouldn't stop the affects of detonation eating it out.

Spanky's article appears here and his revised post is further down the page :
http://www.mxnewsfeed.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=21

Alexander Graham Bells book (out of print) is compulsory reading for anyone interested in getting their 2 strokes running to their optimum. Tuners around the world use his research like a bible. I think I have his book on PDF I will check my files and try to post it on a new post..

I have my old piston I pulled out of the bike that I will post a pic of. I will at some stage pull my cylinder and take a photo of the piston that is currently being used. It is also ceramic and moly coated and this is something I can recommend to owners. I got mine done by Jet Hot Coatings in Castlemaine Victoria who also did the silver coating on my expansion chamber. What do others think about the coating of pistons? has it worked for you? Do 2 stroke tuners such as Lozza adopt this technology for longevity and reliability.

The overall theme and objective of this entire post is to research and offer readers options and ideas to enhance the operation and running of their bikes, and throughout the discussions we can bring up related mechanical concepts (moly coatings to enhance lubrication and ceramic coatings to prevent heat transfer etc) that can further the initial opening discussion of oil ratios/2T oil viscosities. And  totatly new posts can be created by people who specialise in these other fields. This will then not lead to diluting the initial posts message and topic of debate.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 07:58:07 am by shortshift »

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2009, 09:03:48 pm »
Avgas 100 burns slow in low compression motors and some people think that by adding Avgas or racing fuel your bike or car will go slower. But INCREASE the compression ratio and everything comes together to make large HP.

I've siad this before, but plenty of people with rally cars have found that they make more power with an engine optimised for 98-octane pump fuel than they did with an engine optimised for AvGas.
AvGas has a nice high octane rating and is very consistant, but not much else going for it.


For example your normal 91 pump gas in Australia (lowest available here.........I think in the US it is 87) it burns faster than say 95 or 98, and this is a factor in causing detonation if your compression is too high for the fuel.

The USA uses the MON ratings, whereas we use RON (or maybe the other way 'round, I can never remember).
Regardless, their numbers are lower for similar fuels - their 87 octane fuel isn't as crappy as most Australians would tend to think.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline Lozza

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2009, 11:35:23 pm »
I can tell you for fact coatings on piston crowns PROMOTE detonation. Especialy if coated in the squish band region. I have found most coatings on the skirt wear off even on road bikes with airboxes and filters.Coatings like DLC which work a treat in 4 strokes loose HP in 2 stroke because of no oil retention. So you could say IMO they are a complete waste of money but don't let my opinion stop anyone getting something like a piston coated.
I cannot see any correlation in the internals of an F1 engine and a GP 250 2T engine,only that they are both pure bred racing engines. Camera's will tell very little a KISTLER tells everything you need to know(a transducer/spark plug 1000GBP).
Mr Smola tells me US is an average of RON/MON values and some clever Kiwi kart tuners are actualy making more HP tuning to 95 PULP fuel.Go figure.
shortshifter you have some WPM speed there, would have taken me a week to type that ;D
Jesus only loves two strokes

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2009, 10:21:59 am »
You really can not draw any conclusions unless all the facts are presented.
After my Maico engine was rebuilt last year and I ran it in on 30:1 747, to my surprise I discovered the unburnt oil was pouring out of the exhaust pipe. This lead me to believe that I should use 40:1 as the oil was passing straight through the engine and fouling every thing in its wake. I thought that it was not doing anything good, it may be fouling the plug, soaking the packing in my silencer and carboning the chamber. The sleeve was standard size and so was the piston. The sleeve received a light hone and assembled.
The engine was run in at the Conondale Classic last year and I would say now thinking about it that I ran the engine for about 30 to 40 minutes.
The next time the engine was worked I mixed a new batch of 40:1 747 and the engine performed like a race bike. Hardly any smoke on the track at revs, no oil pouring out of the exhaust pipe and one kick starts with my left leg. The power was up and I was ripping. The engine did still seem a little stiff so I did not push the revs up to high. At its next meet at Tamborine I finished the day with 1 first, 2 seconds and 3 fourths. The engine was on fire and running like a Swiss watch.

I was very happy with the 40:1 747 mix recommendation and have not changed. I do find I have to mix the oil into the fuel with a spoon to make sure all of the 25ml per litre goes into the tank and not left behind in the jerry can.

With that said and the fact that it takes 30 minutes of run time to purge an engine of its last meal I can now conclude that may be the oil pouring out of my muffler when running the motor in was not from the 30:1 mix but was the pre-assembly oil.

I will purchase some TTS and try 25:1.
I will only start my appraisal after 40 minutes of run time.
I will not change anything else so any change will be the mix.
I will rejet the carb to accommodate the new mix (this will be the only change)
I currently run an Iridium spark plug and it is the same plug that I ran the engine in last year. I have never cleaned it and it has never given an ounce of trouble.

I purchase my 747 at Super Cheap Auto and it cost me $39.00 for 1 litre the last time.

I am the only one that has shown an image of what my mix is doing inside the engine. Please don't be shy I want to see what Lozza and Shortshift engines look like or else this post will only be theory based on others work.


Ji

Offline floberts

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2009, 12:24:58 pm »
Avgas 100 burns slow in low compression motors and some people think that by adding Avgas or racing fuel your bike or car will go slower. But INCREASE the compression ratio and everything comes together to make large HP.

I've siad this before, but plenty of people with rally cars have found that they make more power with an engine optimised for 98-octane pump fuel than they did with an engine optimised for AvGas.
AvGas has a nice high octane rating and is very consistant, but not much else going for it.

They make more power? maybe more usable power.

High octane fuels allow higher compression and more advanced timing to be used with less chance of detonation. For outright hp high octane fuels win.
Ben

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2009, 04:47:27 pm »
Nope. More power - the power curve is basically the same, just bigger.

Even allowing for the high octane rating, AvGas is a very slow burning fuel - as best as I can tell, this makes it less than ideal in a car engine (even though its got plenty of octane rating).
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2009, 05:28:44 pm »
With regards to moly coating of piston skirts (See http://www.jet-hot.com.au/products.htm for an explanation of their Thermal Barrier and Low Friction coatings) I found when I installed the piston to my bike something that may in fact aid oil retention. My tuner (Ian Tate from TRE race engines swears on thermal coatings for all his 2 stroke engines, bikes, carts, PWC and outboards and has a rolling acount with HPC coatings. Some car company's like Honda are employing moly coatings for their vehicles.
So before slipping the cylinder over the new piston I painted 2 stroke oil onto the moly coating and inside the cylinder surface with a soaked tissue to ensure oil is present upon first kickover.  The moly coating was like a sponge that absorbed the oil and I had to reapply it with oil 3 more times until it was saturated enough showing adequate oil on the surface. I thought this is fantastic as the moly coating not only provides a chemical barrier for the piston to prevent it from touching the cylinder wall but also acts like an oil reservoir to hold oil. This can only equate to the optimum situation for cylinder wall lubrication.
I had my expansion chamber off a few weeks ago to replace a leaking exhaust flange gasket and of course shone a torch inside the exhaust port to take a look and the coatings was still there in one piece. I wiped the piston with a tissue to get the oil off and there was no scratch marks (scuffing).
Eventually the coating will wear off as in the picture below. The coating i feel wore off too fast as not enough oil was used in the premix by the previuos owner.

Below are two photo's of pistons with their front exhaust (Thrust faces) looking at us, the side that gets most wear. One contains the original piston on the left that came out of the bike that had hard heavy carbon deposits on the top, on the underside of the crown and severe varnish arpound the ring lands. The piston pin is stuck hard in the piston and needed to be mechanically removed. The pin iself showed excessive wear where the small end bearing ran on.  The moly coating has worn off on the lower parts of the skirt. This had 40:1 Motul 800 with BP Ultimate 98 octane fuel used througout its life. (The owner should have run 710 @ 20:1) In fact he told me when I bought the bike to restore he ran 20:1 with 800 and it loaded up and didnt run very well.
The piston in the middle is a brand new piston straight out of the box as a reference piston. The piston on the right is what I took out a few months ago before fitting another moly and ceramic coated unit that has run 20:1 Castrol TTS with BP Ultimate or Mobil Synergy 8000 fuel with the odd tank full of 100+ and 102 racing fuel. It has done several Vinduro's, CD5, and lots of trailriding over 18 months. It is still in a new condition and will be reused again. I was very relieved when I slipped off the cylinder and saw that, with lots of oil coming off the piston. You will also see the mark down the front, that is the scratch mark caused by the decompression notch from the PE400 that I had to take the sharp edge of with a stone after the first ride. During the rebore the port edges were relieved but not to the notch. Very few engines have this feature so it was soemthing that was overlooked, you live and learn.
Since I was sending my expansion chamber and other parts to be coated I decided to send a new piston to get coated as well and fit that and remove the uncoated piston fitted during the overhaul in mid 2007. I wanted to do everything to ensure the longevity of the engine so that I can still ride it in 20 years time.





 

Ji, Just to define some of what you are saying in your last post that will also help other readers dispel some misconceptions. 2 stroke oil doesnt actually "burn" like diesel fuel in a diesel engine. The 2T oil does not ignite along with the petrol and create forces that send the piston back down the cylinder.  It goes through the engine as a lubricant and gets thrown out the exhaust. Many riders see oil come out of their exhausts in liquid form and believe they are running too much oil and then next time wind back the mixture. This is incorrect practice and cannot be used to solve an issue where in fact the engine requires this oil and perhaps slightly more to get 20-25:1. I have described previuosly that heavy oils condense and dont get thrown out in the gas stream. I dont have this issue of excess oil as I run the right viscosity designed for the machine. I still have black oil leaking out from the silencer/chamber joint at times.
Assembly Oil? I dont think it would be that as there would have been hardly a teardropper full put on the small end and piston. However we cannot be sure. I am glad that you are now looking at the running of your bike from a new angle and now you may find room for improvement.
Dont be scared to wind your bike out when you run more oil as it will be better protected. It will also allow the bike to reach higher temperatures and gas speeds to expel the oil from the entire system.
Also Autobarn and Supercheap Auto are very expensive for motorcycle oils. I had a look at the prices for Castrol and Repsol and couldnt believe the prices. Try a motorcycle shop.

I have been asked to also make up an XL type spreadsheet to list the major/popular manufacturers 2T oils available in Australian motorcycle shops in their respective classes to offer an easy reference chart for comparison and convenience for purchasing. I can have a go at that at some stage. Some close formulations may have an overlap in quality/additive systems that it is not correct to say that Oil A is exactly equivalent to Oil B. It can be used a guide.

There is also discussion moving towards fuels, and I guess that this is perhaps beneficial as fuel is the bacon to the 2T oil (the eggs). You cannot do without the other.
Just in 25 words or less, Avgas is not the best 100 octane fuel for automotive applications. It has many addtives in there that are aviation specific such as to stop carb icing at 10,000 feet, scavenging additives to remove lead previuosly put down by leaded avgas amongst many others. It has remained unchanged since WW2.
There is much better technology today from any of the main race fuel suppliers, Martini, ELF, Fuel 2 Race, Unocal and VP to name a few.
95 Octane fuel is sometimes a better formulation than the 98 sold by the same company. I need to look into this more but I have heard from some private road race teams they get a better run out of Shell 95 etc.

The posts primary objective is written in the interests of, and in the education of the VMX community on 2T oils, the differences available and the suggested ratios for older bikes (with no brand preferences or information that has been regurgitated by oil distributors who heard information from the person previuosly in the same position that has somehow become company gospel) and most importantly the big trap we all face when it is time to reach inside our wallets and buy more oil, to wade through the barriers associated with fancy packaging, price/quality/suitability relatonship, advertising hype, trick names and what someone has heard from another at a race track or told by a shop.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 03:35:43 pm by shortshift »

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2009, 05:52:56 pm »
Does anyone use more oil than 20 to 1 for motocross/enduro/trail use, eg 16 or 18 to 1? i would like to know how did the magical figure of 20 to 1 become the universally excepted ideal mix ratio?
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2009, 07:51:40 pm »
Hi Shortshift,
With all due respect and knowing that you purchased the bike and was told by the previous owner what he ran the engine on. I find it hard to believe that that piston is like it is due to 40:1 mix.

How long has it been since it was installed?
What was the gap between piston and sleeve?
Did he service the air filter?
..............

That piston looks like it was abused.
I don't think that is a true indication of a properly maintained bike run on 40:1 mix.
Look at mine and look at yours, no way.

I replace the gear box oil after every race.
I clean the air filter after every race.
I wash the bike after every outing.

That piston can not be used as scientific data or even as a forum comparison due to the lack of service knowledge. Scientific experiments have to be reproducible in anyones lab and there is insufficient data or back ground on that train wreck.


Ji


 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 07:53:47 pm by Ji Gantor »

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2009, 08:53:51 pm »
well i can tell you that shortshift personally told me right from the begining 2 or 3 years ago when he got that bike, that the previous owner was running 40 to 1 in his bike. I just shook my head and couldnt believe it (40 to 1 in a air cooled motor) and everything he found in his motor all made sense and fitted in with running 40 to 1. He found the barrel-head joint was distorted and the cylinder wall distorted due to overheating with too little oil. in my opinion i reckon you would have to be crazy to run 40 to 1 in an air cooled motor and i would never do it, but on the otherhand i know theres guys that think people who run 20 to 1 are just as crazy. Also when i have bought used bikes, first thing i ask is what premix ratio they were using in the bike.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 09:09:13 pm by LWC82PE »
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

090

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2009, 09:13:08 am »
Hi Shortshift. Thanks for taking the time to help out others. I am currently using Motul 800 due to being readily available. I run it at 25:1. I also try and buy my fuel at a Caltex servo which now that i think of it is because of issues i was told with Shell (ultimate?) in modern four strokes  before i was into vmx. After the nationals i am going to change the oil i run to Maxima Super M ester based synthetic blend.I would be mixing at the same ratio.
I would appreciate any input as i am doing what i feel is right but may be way off.
One other thing. I was tipping Motul 800 into my measuring cup and noticed some gel like lumps in the oil. I consequently did not use it fearing there were issues with it. Any idea what this could be?

oldfart

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2009, 10:03:11 am »
Brad, I have experienced the same gel lumps in Motul 800 ( CD6 )

firko

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2009, 10:45:37 am »
Quote
noticed some gel like lumps in the oil
Me too, also at CD6???

090

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2009, 11:50:38 am »
Brad, I have experienced the same gel lumps in Motul 800 ( CD6 )
Quote
noticed some gel like lumps in the oil
Me too, also at CD6???

Just at home for me.