Author Topic: Rule re-write.  (Read 46649 times)

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Offline Nathan S

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2014, 10:08:16 pm »
Totally agree with you on that.

16.15.8.5    Engines and gearboxes must remain externally unchanged.
Could this have a small exception to the rule ??


16.15.8.5    Engines and gearboxes must remain externally unchanged unless a two stroke oil pump has been removed ??

16.15.8.5 has been removed in the proposed changes.
Its function has been replaced by 16.15.7 b & ba (and by the preamble for each class [16.15.x.1]).
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Offline Davey Crocket

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2014, 10:11:28 pm »
Leave the pre78 class alone, 9 inches is plenty, not everybody wants to cut up a perfectly good bike to give it more travel....and de-value it at the same time. If you change the travel to 10 inches, you will loose more bikes than you gain. This is not 20/20 cricket. If you put a pre75 bike next to a pre78 and EVO you can see a remarked difference....it looks right to the punters as far as telling them apart, give pre78 more travel and they will look like EVO bikes. EVO should not have any parts off a linkage bike, including making 1979 CR500's etc. Remember the more rules, the more drama's, generally it's only minor tweaks that need to happen. Don't forget the 2004 KX500 in pre90 ;). ;).I would like to see period water cooled kits being allowed to be used, lets face it, they probably add 5kg's to the bike [and on the forks where you don't want it], they wont be any advantage as we mostly do 3/4 lap races and 6/7 at the Nats...in real terms they will probably make the bike slower. No home made kits though or adapting later model parts to fit. I think it would add some "cool" to our sport.....maybe there are other period mods that where done that aren't allowed that could be?. I don't think swingarms/frames need to have shock mounts altered, most bikes can get extra travel by putting longer shocks on. Some of the bikes that turn up to meetings would scare the crap out of me if I was in the same race and knew oldmate that couldn't weld to save himself had just added long travel suspension to his bike with his $6.95 welder he just bought from Aldi and was now testing it....when it goes bang and takes out half the field....who is responsible, I as a qualified scrutineer would run a hundred miles at seeing a home LTR conversion....you would put clubs in a bad situation and I'm sure MA would not be happy Jan..... Remember, we are in the age of litigation fella's, even re-writing these rules you would want a disclaimer....protect yourself and the club....and before the Kiwi's jump on board, NZ is a totally different kettle of fish than Australia.
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Offline FourstrokeForever

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2014, 10:19:39 pm »
Nathan, you have done an excellent job on a very thankless task. There will be be more knockers than those that want to work with you. Kudos to you for looking at ruling chapters and including them in your proposed re-write. 090 was right, you are the man for the job!
I was just remembering it as it was in the day Ted with a majority of bikes having laid down shocks in the mid 70's.. ala Gary Flood, Mark Pace, Graeme Smythe etc.
Thought it might encourage a few more 75/76 models onto the track.. Then again most people in vmx didn't race in the 70's let alone remember it!

Why hasn't anyone mentioned this before!?  >:( ....  ;D

It's a fair point, though.
Is it worth changing the rules for? It's been "wrong" since the start of the Pre-78 class. Has it ever mattered?

I have thought the same thing for ages. Not just later pre78 bikes, but earlier '75 and '76 models that were basically the same as '74's and in some cases, were worse handling bikes. No body wants to race them in pre78.

I think re-writting to state that "the frames original shock mount position must be retained" could alleviate some confusion. Then add something like, "the swinging arm shock location is open to any position as long as the swinging arm is of the same era as the machine"
All pre 78 machines must comply with 9" travel front and rear, measured at the axle to the lower point of the lower fork clamp area for the front wheel travel, springs removed and bottomed to full travel, and from lower rear shock mounting bolt to top rear shock mounting bolt for rear wheel travel, springs removed and bottomed to full travel.

Good luck on your mission and if there is any help you need, let me know.

Arrogance.....A way of life for the those that having nothing further to learn.

Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2014, 10:28:09 pm »
Davey many of the 75/76 models only have 6 or maybe 7" rear wheel travel, my idea was to allow owners to bring those bikes up to the 9" class limit not make them 12".
There's enough knowledge and tradesmen around to do that mod properly, most people in vmx don't mind spending a bit of coin to get a job done properly..

Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2014, 10:33:34 pm »
I was just remembering it as it was in the day Ted with a majority of bikes having laid down shocks in the mid 70's.. ala Gary Flood, Mark Pace, Graeme Smythe etc.
Thought it might encourage a few more 75/76 models onto the track.. Then again most people in vmx didn't race in the 70's let alone remember it!

I was at Amaroo Park the day Gaston gave us a riding lesson. The same day Camel came out of the chicane on the back wheel, over the jump on the back wheel, landing on the back wheel and only putting it down to go around the corner. Was there to see Gary Fllod fu...ck up a start at MR MX and lay his bike ( bultaco i think ) across the start line, refusing to move it until they started the race again. Which they did. I used to watch Lester Rowley ride his CCM. Hans on his Husky. I was racing there in 75 /76 , can't recall, when Christ Cater rode my 125 S in a race, breaking the clutch perch in a fall. He gets the bike home in second place then walks over to a club member who has finished racing and orders him to remove his clutch perch and give it to me as I had one race to go. Which he did.

lucky  Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds wasn't as mainstream then as I would probably put it all down to a hallucination.
Ted good to hear you were around mx in that era, they were glory days..
I saw those guys and many more legends ride in Qld in that period..

Offline Lozza

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2014, 10:34:06 pm »
I would 16.15.7.(ba)  to "operationaly similar and visualy indistinguishable" other than that pretty much complete

Why?

Indistiguishable is clear and defined , 'similar' is open to interpretation. Similar operation means things like I could not convert a powervalve to servo operation from governed off  the crank. here is an example

I would like to see period water cooled kits being allowed to be used, lets face it, they probably add 5kg's to the bike [and on the forks where you don't want it], they wont be any advantage as we mostly do 3/4 lap races and 6/7 at the Nats...in real terms they will probably make the bike slower. No home made kits though or adapting later model parts to fit. I think it would add some "cool" to our sport.....maybe there are other period mods that where done that aren't allowed that could be?
Rider/tuners/factories were cutting off air cooled cylinder fins and welding on water jackets on in the 1930's, Bultaco TSS road racers used thermo syphon water cooling in the 60's. I see no reason why a home made kit should not be disallowed so long as the competitor had evidence it was raced in the period it was 'indistinguishable' from what was used in or before the period and functioned in a similar way.

or

just get log books

The whole trust of the rules should be to stop people going to great lengths to adapt later model parts to major components.
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Offline DJRacing

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2014, 10:37:59 pm »
Leave the pre78 class alone, 9 inches is plenty, not everybody wants to cut up a perfectly good bike to give it more travel....and de-value it at the same time. If you change the travel to 10 inches, you will loose more bikes than you gain. This is not 20/20 cricket. If you put a pre75 bike next to a pre78 and EVO you can see a remarked difference....it looks right to the punters as far as telling them apart, give pre78 more travel and they will look like EVO bikes. EVO should not have any parts off a linkage bike, including making 1979 CR500's etc. Remember the more rules, the more drama's, generally it's only minor tweaks that need to happen. Don't forget the 2004 KX500 in pre90 ;). ;).I would like to see period water cooled kits being allowed to be used, lets face it, they probably add 5kg's to the bike [and on the forks where you don't want it], they wont be any advantage as we mostly do 3/4 lap races and 6/7 at the Nats...in real terms they will probably make the bike slower. No home made kits though or adapting later model parts to fit. I think it would add some "cool" to our sport.....maybe there are other period mods that where done that aren't allowed that could be?. I don't think swingarms/frames need to have shock mounts altered, most bikes can get extra travel by putting longer shocks on. Some of the bikes that turn up to meetings would scare the crap out of me if I was in the same race and knew oldmate that couldn't weld to save himself had just added long travel suspension to his bike with his $6.95 welder he just bought from Aldi and was now testing it....when it goes bang and takes out half the field....who is responsible, I as a qualified scrutineer would run a hundred miles at seeing a home LTR conversion....you would put clubs in a bad situation and I'm sure MA would not be happy Jan..... Remember, we are in the age of litigation fella's, even re-writing these rules you would want a disclaimer....protect yourself and the club....and before the Kiwi's jump on board, NZ is a totally different kettle of fish than Australia.

All good points John but this kiwi has already been on-board for a while  ;D
What ever the out come of this, the rules need to be very clear and self explanatory for the newbie (not the old hands) so once read they can walk away knowing what classes a bike fits into as well as what can and can't be done to a VMX bike. There should be no asking of what rule 16.......... means.
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Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2014, 10:55:15 pm »


I would like to see period water cooled kits being allowed to be used, lets face it, they probably add 5kg's to the bike [and on the forks where you don't want it], they wont be any advantage as we mostly do 3/4 lap races and 6/7 at the Nats...in real terms they will probably make the bike slower. No home made kits though or adapting later model parts to fit. I think it would add some "cool" to our sport.....maybe there are other period mods that where done that aren't allowed that could be?
Yep I'd like to see those Shinobi, Mugen, Fox etc water cooled kits included and made legal, they were a part of motocross history and another of the things that made 70's mx so cool..
Then I could use the Shinobi kit I have for a 76 CR125!  :D

Offline John Orchard

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2014, 11:03:12 pm »
Skunkworks
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Offline Ted

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2014, 11:14:14 pm »


I would like to see period water cooled kits being allowed to be used, lets face it, they probably add 5kg's to the bike [and on the forks where you don't want it], they wont be any advantage as we mostly do 3/4 lap races and 6/7 at the Nats...in real terms they will probably make the bike slower. No home made kits though or adapting later model parts to fit. I think it would add some "cool" to our sport.....maybe there are other period mods that where done that aren't allowed that could be?
Yep I'd like to see those Shinobi, Mugen, Fox etc water cooled kits included and made legal, they were a part of motocross history and another of the things that made 70's mx so cool..
Then I could use the Shinobi kit I have for a 76 CR125!  :D

In a 4 lap 10 minute race would it be of benefit? Well set up bikes don't get that hot in such short races. 45 minute moto it would. I'm thinking the weight of it plus water would detract rather than enhance performance in a 10 min race. Be cool to see it though.
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Offline evo550

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2014, 11:27:40 pm »


I would like to see period water cooled kits being allowed to be used, lets face it, they probably add 5kg's to the bike [and on the forks where you don't want it], they wont be any advantage as we mostly do 3/4 lap races and 6/7 at the Nats...in real terms they will probably make the bike slower. No home made kits though or adapting later model parts to fit. I think it would add some "cool" to our sport.....maybe there are other period mods that where done that aren't allowed that could be?
Yep I'd like to see those Shinobi, Mugen, Fox etc water cooled kits included and made legal, they were a part of motocross history and another of the things that made 70's mx so cool..
Then I could use the Shinobi kit I have for a 76 CR125!  :D

Where does it say you can't use those ? Evo is the only class that stipulates air cooled only...

Offline Davey Crocket

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2014, 11:29:20 pm »
That's my point Ted, they would be no real advantage and most kits where for 125's where weight is a huge factor....if they where that good, everyone would have had one.
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Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2014, 11:51:45 pm »


I would like to see period water cooled kits being allowed to be used, lets face it, they probably add 5kg's to the bike [and on the forks where you don't want it], they wont be any advantage as we mostly do 3/4 lap races and 6/7 at the Nats...in real terms they will probably make the bike slower. No home made kits though or adapting later model parts to fit. I think it would add some "cool" to our sport.....maybe there are other period mods that where done that aren't allowed that could be?
Yep I'd like to see those Shinobi, Mugen, Fox etc water cooled kits included and made legal, they were a part of motocross history and another of the things that made 70's mx so cool..
Then I could use the Shinobi kit I have for a 76 CR125!  :D

In a 4 lap 10 minute race would it be of benefit? Well set up bikes don't get that hot in such short races. 45 minute moto it would. I'm thinking the weight of it plus water would detract rather than enhance performance in a 10 min race. Be cool to see it though.
It's all about having a 'trick' for the period bike Ted. You know..Fox Airshox, DG alloy swingarm, Simons forks, Shinobi water cooled head, none of it makes us any faster but jeez it looks cool!!

Offline Michael Moore

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2014, 04:32:07 am »
Nathan's proposals mostly look pretty reasonable to me.  As an interested bystander (since I'm unlikely to ever get Down Under to race) I'm puzzled by the insistence on stock or OEM specifications on the bikes.  Stock motorcycles are boring, who wants to bother with them when you can have something really cool?   :)

Here in the USA when LT suspension came in there were lots of people who were modifying their bikes.  Moved up dampers, laid down dampers, Wheelsmith slider extensions on Maico forks, Competition Dynamics  kits to monoshock your twinshock, bent swing arms, braced swing arms, custom swing arms, custom frames and on and on and on.  The magazines had multiple articles on the conversion processes, including on trials bikes like the Bultaco Sherpa T.  You could buy different seats, tanks, fenders, airboxes etc so bikes that didn't look very stock were pretty common.

There were also a fair number of people who had access to machine tools at work or had well-equipped shops at home (look at people like Harry Hindall and others in the SoCal aerospace industry areas or Joe Bolger) who would make very cool/trick one-offs.  Make your own frame, make your own wheel hubs, graft on outboard motor reed valves, borrow dampers from race cars, wrap a water jacket around a cylinder or head, may not have been common, but it certainly happened.

It may make sense to exclude some obviously later out-of-period parts like more modern and effective large diameter teleforks, but I can't see why any small TLS front drum should be a problem -- any MX drum brake is pretty much functionally the same as another as there's only so much improvement that can be gotten out of them and if you look around there were some small TLS (or even 4LS) brakes available in the 60s and 70s.  Van Tech sold their own floating backing plate assemblies for OEM hubs and I think Wheelsmith may have too.  It wouldn't be an insurmountable task for someone to grab cams/levers from a couple of SLS brakes and make their own TLS backing plate. 

While I have my gripes with some of the AHRMA rules it does seem to work pretty well to have a maximum travel rule for the different period classes, and how a bike achieves that is largely immaterial as it is likely that someone tried just about everything back in the day.  If someone can make a Skunk Works link and some moved up damper mounts work for them within the allowed travel, more power to them. Once you start saying "OEM this or that" you start opening up a can of enforcement worms.  This is racing, not a concours d'elegance where people lose points for using the left-handed prawn nut on their bike made on 02 May 1965 when everyone knows that was only fitted to bikes made on 30 April 1965.

Perhaps if you required "any technology available in the period, any drum brake wheel assembly accepted, max suspension travel XXX, max stanchion OD on RSU telefork of XXX" and left it at that you'd have fewer people wondering about the legality of their particular cool part.  You could also have "must present a general appearance evocative of the period" to preclude people putting a 1985 "snail" expansion chamber on their Greeves Challenger.  I think most people can agree about "that looks appropriate" issues that are based on cosmetic appearances and not technical issues.  If the bike looks good to Joe or Jane Average Person from 20 feet, it is good.

Keep the rules as simple and broad as you can and you'll cut down the grumbling and complaints.

cheers,
Michael
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 07:42:28 am by Michael Moore »

Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Rule re-write.
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2014, 07:03:43 am »
Some very good points there Michael Moore and that OEM rule doesn't sit well with me either, most people don't even understand its meaning anyway.
Some people on here are killing off the history of our sport by not wanting bikes to be setup as they were thru the 70's, but instead wanting every bike to appear as it did in the sales brochure..
Most people don't even know the shock mount rule exists so to remove the rule is going to make no difference, but it will allow the smart bike builder to perform a cool period suspension mod if they wish to. I think that rule should also be excluded from Evo as well, there are other rules stating no later single shock frame can be modified to twin shock specs.
You're totally dreaming if you think scores of people are going to rush out and buy a cheap welder and do a bodgy modification on their frame.
There is the odd bike out there racing now in both pre 78 and Evo with modified shock mounts that I'm sure the owner is unaware of the ruling and you nazis on here haven't even noticed and I'm not about to tell you either.. To exclude them would be cruel when they've done such a nice job with their bikes!