What bikes are eligible for what classes

[Nathan S]

Classic Dirt is not the issue - they have a "Pre-85-only" rule so the bike is clearly ruled ineligible for CD.
Events that run to MA's eligibility standards do not have a bike-age rule for Evo.

There's no need to build the bloody thing. The whole process of determining eligibility can be done hypothetically.
But like I said earlier, if someone wants to pay for it, I'm happy to make it happen.

[evo550]

Classic Dirt is not the issue - they have a "Pre-85-only" rule so the bike is clearly ruled ineligible for CD.
Events that run to MA's eligibility standards do not have a bike-age rule for Evo.

There's no need to build the bloody thing. The whole process of determining eligibility can be done hypothetically.
But like I said earlier, if someone wants to pay for it, I'm happy to make it happen.

...or you allergic to eggs.

[Andrew L]

Irving Vincent Motorcycles get away with it why not nathan no different.

[09.0]

So again rather than stir shit up here as you do every time the word Evo is mentioned, do something about it. Just as you say you can use that bike, everybody including you knows it would go down like a fart in an elevator and would not run at any event.

[GMC]

Yawn....

Tim, stay awake mate, don't let the sleeper hold get you.

I wish Jeffy would come back....Nathan needs a real hard arse competitor, GMC is too soft....living in the hillbillies holiday home has turned him from a hard arse Kawasaki rider to a soft cock canned ham wobbler.

Tag, your it.


Seriously though, how does any of this lawyer inspired dribble help enzo understand the rules?
Remember Enzo? He had the original simple question!!

Hey, I started with my simple statement that "there's no age restriction on Evo", and it's taken this long to convince you.
But it's all my fault, of course.

Enzo, seemingly a newbie to VMX rules is trying to get his head around what can & can’t be ridden in different classes, most likely there are other newbie’s looking on as well and you try to clarify things for them by bringing up some shonky loophole telling guys they can ride a 2013 model in VMX.
You know damn well that your Shonk-Max would never get to a VMX start gate, nor would any other home built hybrid that is being portrayed as a brand new model.
You want the imperfect rules to be re-written but that’s no reason to hijack a thread with such bullshit. Your very first comment on this thread was obviously looking for an argument.

Newcomers are probably walking backwards now not wanting to have anything to do with this weird bickering sport.

[Graeme M]

C'mon, it's not a weird bickering sport. Nathan's argument is just the stuff of sitting around a bar and arguing the toss because you can. the intent of the rules is quite clear and we all know what it is. if someone wants to do as nathan says they'd be turned away because the onus is on them to prove the bike not only meets the requirements of the rules but that it fits in the spirit of the rules.

The fact that Nathan can demonstrate a weakness in detail is neither here nor there. I think you can do that throughout the MoMS. I deal with legislation every day and have done for donkeys years and the MoMS is truly awful. But who the hell cares, it's a sport for Chrissakes.

We know what Evo is, and the MoMS has a nice simple explanation of how to interpret it. And in the real world, all is fine.

[firko]

Thanks to those that have had an open-enough mind to not react defensively. We're never going to get anywhere if we keep pretending there's no issues with the rules. My hypothetical is extreme - nobody wants to see thoroughly modern bikes in Evo - but was intended to point out a problem that relates directly to the real-world dramas we have...
But hey, it's easier to bury our head in the sand, call Nathan names and let those problems continue. 

My reaction to Nathans post has nothing to do with "open mindedness" nor do I have my head in the sand. I'm the first to admit that there are some wording anomalies in the rulebook that could do with a bit of a revamp. My problem is and always has been Nathans inability to see things from another perspective, whether it be politics, his criticisms of the rulebook or anything else he gets a bee in his bonnet about. It's his view that his perception is so much more astute than ours that gets under my skin. It's notable that the Evo class has survived and has thrived without any need to fix Nathans perceived faults .                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

[Davey Crocket]

Graeme hit the nail on the head....."in the real world".......not the "Nathan world".....all you guy's know better not to get involved with Nathan's "Christine Milne Green party" perception of things......just be thankfull he hasn't run for parliament yet.....Christ Firko, if you thought ol' Jo Bejelkie was a redneck, he was a pussy......"don't you worry about that".....lol... ......"let me introduce you to our new PM....Nathan Senior".....then you'll be looking for a fork to stab yourself in the eyes.....lol.

[firko]

Graeme hit the nail on the head....."in the real world".......not the "Nathan world".....all you guy's know better not to get involved with Nathan's "Christine Milne Green party" perception of things......just be thankfull he hasn't run for parliament yet.....Christ Firko, if you thought ol' Jo Bejelkie was a redneck, he was a pussy......"don't you worry about that".....lol... ......"let me introduce you to our new PM....Nathan Senior".....then you'll be looking for a fork to stab yourself in the eyes.....lol.

Ironically, I often agree with Nathans posts but it's that dogged "I'm right but you're all too stupid to see it" attitude turns me from friend to foe after about three pages of rantings. In the real world Nathan's quite a nice bloke who's helped many of us including me with our projects by supplying parts from his mountainous stash. But in Cyber Space he morphs into a combination of Alan Jones (the shock jock one) and Brother Athenacious, my old Marist Brothers Pagewood high school principal (who up until recently was the most stubborn person I'd ever known) with his one sided insight into what's right for us.


Meanwhile Enzo....I hope your questions were answered satisfactorily mate  .

[Nathan S]

Wait... Is being popular on the Internet supposed to be important?!

I've been watching the eligibility debates go over and over and over for 25 years now. While some issues are simply resolved, far too many fester, sometimes indefinitely. They are the gangrene of our sport.
Think about how much damage is done every time someone is knocked back at scrutiny, or protested - I've met people who still harbour grudges from 15 years ago, FFS.
I've lost track of the number of people I've met who clearly have enthusiasm for old dirt bikes, but when I say "why don't you come along to...", they point-blank refuse to because of some eligibility dispute that happened in 1997...

There ARE people who try it on - we don't want or need to bend over to them. But while the rules are unclear, it encourages uncertainty and division.
Everyone hates uncertainty - look at the buyer's strike that happens before every federal election, for one example.

So it seems very clear to me that clearer, more concise rules are hugely important for our sport - that our "it will be right" attitude to the rules is actually doing us a massive disservice, as theyre the source of 90% of the conflict we see (both on the forum and at events).
It would seem that the CMX commission would agree with me, as they've been slowly moving in that direction for the last few years.

But any time it gets brought up here, the automatic response is to refuse to talk about it: "The rules work, let's not talk about it"... Hell, Firko and Brad are nearly as happy to dig in when they are certain they're right - but when I do the same, suddenly the topic shifts to being all about Nathan's personality failings...

I can see a problem - everything I've seen, heard and experienced in the last 8 years of active participation strengthens my belief that it is a problem that is limiting the sport.

Should I meekly say nothing, and continue to watch the damage?

[Graeme M]

Nathan, have you an example of the Evo rules causing this sort of uncertainty? EVERYONE knows what an Evo bike is. If someone 'tries it on' and gets knocked back, who the hell cares if he harbours a grudge? Most of the cases of unhappiness I've seen are guys with 85/86 model bikes who are stopped from riding in Pre 85 or some similar situation. There the problem is just one of not knowing, or being unwilling to observe, the rules.

I think the problem is more likely people's attitudes than the shortcomings of the rules...

[firko]

  Hell, Firko and Brad are nearly as happy to dig in when they are certain they're right 

But we don't waffle on for page after page after page. We usually make our point early and as succinctly as possible and then back away.

I've been involved in this sport since 1988 and yes, I've seen and been a part of some eligibility doozies over the years but to say that something that happened in 1997 is preventing someone from entering the sport on 2013 says more about those people that the condition our sport's in. In 25 years of involvement I can only recall a handful of scrutineering situations that could be called 'shitfights'. Of those, the Boagy CZ rear wheel incident has been hyped and misrepresented so much that the real story is lost in legend. The Vern Grayson Cheney case from 1997 did grow beyond a sensible conclusion but the make up of that situation was as much a clash of personalities as a rulebook interpretation. All of the other that I can think of such as Geoff Holmes CR125 at Cherabah, Brook Lawson's BSA at Conondale, Dave Alsops Maico XR200 at Barrabool and the few more I won't bother listing here were all adequately covered by the book as it sits. When you consider that the vast majority of the thousands of bikes that have been presented for scrutineering at National events over the last 25 years have passed with nary a problem it'd be pretty obvious that the MoMs is easily understood by the majority of racers. Sure, the MoMs definitely could do with a tidy up but to most who race classic dirt bikes in both dirt track and motocross there aren't the problems you seem to find Nathan. Rather than searching for loopholes that are usually covered by the common sense factor anyway, why not do like the majority of us do and build and race bikes to the rules as they are, it's pretty simple and only complicated by taking a pedantic view of them. If you think there are changes needed it's your prerogative to write amendments to the rules you see a problem with and submit them through your club secretary to the CMX Commission for consideration. While the rules do have loopholes that can be interpreted differently than they were intended, most racers use the common sense approach and just get on with it.

[enzo906]

Thanks Guys
I now have a pretty good idea of how to go forward
If I want to ride a big bore Honda is out in EVO so get a pre 85
The little 125 D model I have can go pre78 and evo if I want to and I can go YZ250H or 465H, which is the best way to have an EVO and pre 85 Bike short of 15K for a Maico.

It all makes sense now and I can't remeber who it was but the comment on how period / technology of time, makes alot more sense than reading the rule books. No big bore production Honda was made before rising rate linkages and Yamaha Monoshock is not a linkage. The KTM does not have a linkage but the current technology of the KTM rear reproduces (without the levers etc) a rising rate type of suspension so KTM is not eligible even with fins welded onto a newer Generation design 2 stroke. and there is the Rub that engine design is not period nor is the Frame so swapping forks and drums for disc's is moot.

Thanks again guys I am now hunting for a yz465G/H G is nicer looking from memory it had those lovely stickers like the E model. Anyone selling one?

[enzo906]

Oh
I forgot, sorry if I caused argy bargy with this topic but If I am going to look to increase the stable I wanted not to regret the purchase.
Thanks again

[bigk]

Maybe Nathan watches too many American lawyer type shows......
K