When can I come to CD?

[jerry]

3858 your comparatively new to the forum and I reckon you made some good points and you were most respectful to others opinions. It would be a shame to lose you as I reckon you've got a bit to contribute and so I would encourage you to reconsider leaving. Cheers Jerry

[Davey Crocket]

Where's Jeff?....there's never been a decent argument on here without his imput?...come back/out and play Jeffy.

[jerry]

Where's Ji Gantor, now there was a man who liked an argument! J

[Nathan S]

Why is it even vaguely contentious?

Pre-90 is in the rule book.

Don't care - we have good events now - why change them

Why is it even vaguely contentious?

Pre-90 is in the magazine.

Covered by Ken's earlier reply

Why is it even vaguely contentious?

Pre-90 hurts nobody at a non-competitive event.

Who cares - we have enough entrants without them.

There is not one single logical argument against it, especially when you're using the argument that "hardly any pre-90s will turn up".

I'm sorry Nathan, but you have not presented a single logical argument for it, especially when you're asking for a change to what is demonstrably a very successful formula.  And then you try and repudiate a statement about the level of support shown by Pre 90 riders on your assertion to the contrary alone, when all the available evidence over the last two years shows that to to be a fallacy.

More entries. More nice kumbayah vibes. More exposing those pre-90 heathens to older era bikes. Making the event more representative of VMX in Australia.
Making the event more representative of the content of VMX magazine.

CD9 was not over subscribed, so nobody misses out. If it comes to it (and it won't) the promoter could easily give preference to entrants with pre-85 bikes.

There's no logical reason against pre-90, just emotional ones. The contradictory "hardly any will turn up and they will displace lots of pre-85 bikes" line is one, clear example of the lack of logic.

If any of us were running Classic Dirt as a business, how would your business case justify excluding pre-90?

[IT400C]

But that's the thing Nathan, you've got it all arse about...

It's not up to us to convince you that Pre 90 shouldn't be included.

It's not even up to you to convince us that Pre 90 should be included.  (although that may help your case)

It's up to you to convince the Promoter (of whichever event) that Pre 90 should be included.  Whether that be Classic Dirt, or the average VMX or Vinduro.

And so far all you've done both here and in the VERI discussion is throw about platitudes, hearsay, and innuendo.

If any of us were running Classic Dirt as a business, how would your business case justify excluding pre-90?

All Promoters (even clubs) run events as a business these days Nathan.  And again you have it all arse about.  Classic Dirt is a successful event.  The Promoters don't need to do a CBA to justify excluding Pre 90.  Not when the status quo works and is profitable.  It's up to the proponents of Pre 90 to provide a CBA/Business Case to justify including Pre 90.

And if you're going to start talking business cases, then you (yes, you, not the Promoters) should be looking to present a real CBA, backed by real analysis and with verifiable and auditable figures, not just wishy-washy platitudes that "it'll all be better if you let us ride!"

You keep referring to logic Nathan, and yet you persist in presenting emotive dribble that bears little or no resemblance to logic.

Do try and remember that you're the one that has to prove his case, we're not required to disprove it.  Just because you say something at every opportunity does not make it so.

(CBA = Cost-Benefit Analysis)

[Hardo]

Okay .... I cant resist this.

So... if I bring both my Pre-85 and my Pre-90 KX's to CD , am I then Accepted and welcomed with open arms? 
If your instant reaction is that I am not - then forget the argument that has been put forward about Pre-90 stopping anyone entering a Pre-85 bike. Thats Bollocks. Most Pre-90 enthusiasts I know of also have older 'accepted' era bikes.

If Heaven Started in 99ish, and in 14 years has "advanced" one class (5 -7 odd years) ... I sense an aging gap somewhere.

The main issue I see is that you older folks in your 50's, 60's and beyond - whilst CRUCIAL to our sport - seem waaaaay too rigid to accept evolving change.
When you guys are looking at your pre whatever bikes because you cant ride them anymore, dont go wondering why the 30 something year olds dont wish to ride/race the Pre 75 bikes and there's no entries.

If this stings YOU a little - then ask yourself why....... Maybe, just maybe there's a hint of truth there somewhere.

Moving forward is inevitable guys. Please dont fight it as it will only drive genuine interest away. Embrace it.

Oh and before you reply (which is cool with me) , I rode Scrivo's Pre 75 Monty the other week at Heaven Bulahdelah event and had a blast.... although I still dont know how you guys cut so many laps with no suspension....   


 

[worms]

for what it's worth, I have a couple of bikes of most era's and I attend the events that I want to, it's that simple, If you dont like the event dont go!!!!

it's just like buying a loaf of bread, if it's good, you buy it, if you dont like the look of the baker you go elsewhere
 that makes me hungry

cheers Worms

[Jeffc]

My 2 cents worth!Personally i like
 pre 90s as its my era, but when i got into VMX i soon found out that if i got one. i would have nowhere to go.As i really like HBBB and CD style events, i was left with no option but  to buy a pre 85 bike.
If HBBB and CD change to pre 90s then  i would sell my 84,s in a heartbeat.

[Nathan S]

OK, here's a quick draft:

1. Straight off the top of my head, i can think of six blokes who'd like to attend CD with their pre-90 bikes. Four of don't own pre-85 bikes, so cannot attend. Two of them also own pre-85 bikes, but won't attend because they think the "no pre-90" rule is bullshit.
I am sure there are more, and I may yet add myself to the list (not a tanty, just a "I can't be forked - if there's a modern enduro on that weekend, then I'll go there an have no bullshit").


2. There have been post-84 bikes in attendance (and ridden!) at the four previous CDs I've been to - at least half a dozen at CD9. Nobody has even mentioned them.
I specifically spoke to two of the riders last year, and they reported no negativity, and a fair bit of positivity.
The pattern of regular pre-90 bike attendance without a murmur of compliant strongly suggests that nobody is staying home "because of those rotten pre-90 bikes".

3. The event was not over-subscribed last year. I will stand corrected, but I am entirely confident that it is not in danger of being over-subscribed this year. Having more riders directly increases the profitability for the organisers.

4. Good vibes. There's no individual aspect of CD that cannot be had elsewhere - and HBBB offers more options.
CD's biggest strength in the marketplace is the inclusive attitude and lack of petty bullshit - "the vibe of it". Taking a hard line on pre-90 bikes kills a lot of the inclusive attitude - it might only upset a small number of people, but the event suddenly you've got (say) 20 disgruntled potential customers when you previously had none. And you know what they say about unhappy customers....


The CBA is easy: There's no cost, so any benefit is a net gain.

Late edit: this is also an unusual situation because there's a number of potential customers who have identified themselves, but are being refused service despite being no extra effort (the 'effort' of signing people on is utterly irrelevant compared to the total effort, and directly related to the success of the event).

[Nathan S]

On a personal level, I have a pre-90 bike ready to go, and a dozen pre-85 bikes needing work. If I was allowed to bring my pre-90 bike, I could commit to attending, safe in the knowledge that I would definitely have a ride - and then focus my energies on the pre-85 bikes to bring.

I really can't overstate the importance of inclusiveness (and the same goes for the VERi discussion) - when people are enthused about stuff, it is infectious. Unfortunately, the reverse is also true.
I've got two good mates who are wavering in their attendance (for various reasons) and another who cannot ride because be only owns a pre-90 bike. If any of those three would commit to going, I would also commit, regardless of my bike situation.

Similarly, I've got a lot of love for the Heaven club and firmly believe that the committee is doing a very good job of running the club - but my loyalty is with Northern Districts because their committee is positive and inclusive and tries hard to say Yes as often as possible.

I'll also point out how pissed off TM Bill was at CD6 when he wasn't allowed on the Vinduro loop because his bike didn't have a headlight... It wasn't really a big deal, but it's a vibe-killer without benefit to anyone.
Same with the bloke at HBBB who refused to allow bikes with headlights onto the MX track... Everyone understands and respects rules and decisions that make the event run smoothly and/or are for safety - but people love these events because they lack the officialdom of race meets, so it takes very little officialdom to kill off their enthusiasm...

And for anyone with a passion for pre-90, that's what's happening with CD now.

[firko]

Where did I put my fork....ah, there it is :'(

[matcho mick]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZHUH ,zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[XR]

I want to race my WRX in a Volvo only club event..  Why can't I do that!!!! 

[Davey Crocket]

Nathan, it will come one day, at the end of the day CD and Veri are privately owned concerns, they can do what they like, if numbers drop off or they stop existing then it's no skin off your nose, take a chill pill mate or wait till next years Conondale Vinduro Sprint and come up to that. You know all your doing is winding up everyone and yourself. For what it's worth, I think vintage should stick together, if MX is up to pre90, then Vinduro should follow.

[VMX247]

Never heard a pre90 issue at Classic Dirt events, maybe everyone was having too much FUN !!