'74 Suzuki TM250 L

[John Orchard]

There has been times when winning a club-day has been as important to me as a State or National title; it doesn't matter what level of racing it is, if there are rules, we must all abide by them all the time.

I'm saying in an instant like this it would make more sense (and keep riders happier) to take the initial decision away from the official and put in the hands of the fellow competitors, then 'if' a rider protests, then an official can uphold it.

That way the guys gets to ride and it takes the pressure of the nazi official who will only have to uphold a riders protest IF anyone does protest!

[Nobby25]

Craig, the TM frame (TM250-45018) with the straight rear loop is stock. The frame number ID's it as a 1973 TM250K.

How does that work Doc?  I was told by the experts on the weekend that the first number is the year of manufacture.  Sure that designates that frame as a 1974 model?

Not wanting to argue, just learn and understand 

Vintage Suzuki's serial no page  has some 73's and 75's starting in 4, my opinion is that it is just a coincidence that all 74's start with 4. the other cc numbers are all over the place.
       
            Model Frame Number Engine Number
 
1971 TM400R  10001 - 15999  10001 - 15999 
 
1972 TM250J  10001 - 34738  10001 - 34749 
        TM400J  16600 - 30000  16600 - 30005 
 
1973 TM125K  10001 - 20578  10001 - 20602 
        TM250K  34739 - 41776  34750 - 41823 
        TM400K  30001 - 33481  30006 - 33499 
 
1974 TM100L  10001 - 17205  10001 - 17225 
        TM125L  20579 - 43174  20603 - 44498 
        TM250L  41777 - 49510  41824 - 49588 
        TM400L  33482 - 40917  33500 - 40956 
 
1975 TM75M  20705 - 27487  20720 - 27777 
      TM100M  17206 - Up To RM100A  17226 - Up To RM100A 
      TM125M  43175 - Up To RM125M  44499 - Up To RM125M 
      TM250M  49511 - Up To RM250A  49589 - Up To RM250A 
      TM400M  40918 - Up To RM370A  40957 - Up To RM370A 

You will notice that a new engine size started at 10001 and they just continued on from there.
Not wanting to argue just an observation

[Simo63]

Vintage Suzuki's serial no page  has some 73's and 75's starting in 4, my opinion is that it is just a coincidence that all 74's start with 4. the other cc numbers are all over the place.
       
            Model Frame Number Engine Number
 
1971 TM400R  10001 - 15999  10001 - 15999 
 
1972 TM250J  10001 - 34738  10001 - 34749 
        TM400J  16600 - 30000  16600 - 30005 
 
1973 TM125K  10001 - 20578  10001 - 20602 
        TM250K  34739 - 41776  34750 - 41823 
        TM400K  30001 - 33481  30006 - 33499 
 
1974 TM100L  10001 - 17205  10001 - 17225 
        TM125L  20579 - 43174  20603 - 44498 
        TM250L  41777 - 49510  41824 - 49588 
        TM400L  33482 - 40917  33500 - 40956 
 
1975 TM75M  20705 - 27487  20720 - 27777 
      TM100M  17206 - Up To RM100A  17226 - Up To RM100A 
      TM125M  43175 - Up To RM125M  44499 - Up To RM125M 
      TM250M  49511 - Up To RM250A  49589 - Up To RM250A 
      TM400M  40918 - Up To RM370A  40957 - Up To RM370A 

You will notice that a new engine size started at 10001 and they just continued on from there.
Not wanting to argue just an observation

Thanks for posting that Nobby, but nowhere does it list any TM250 frame with a 5 at the beginning of the number?  Mine is 50073 but it isn't listed at all, even in 1975?

[Graeme M]

Looking at that table of numbers it doesn't seem that the frame number exactly matches the year, that is definitely coincidence. However, a number beginning with a 5 is definitely a 75 model - that is, any frame number that is after 49511 but isn't RM250A will be a 75.

I'll guess then that your bike with 50073 is the 562nd 1975 bike built...

[Doc]

Graeme is on the money. Suzuki engine and frame numbers don't follow any set pattern for year models (only numerical)

Engine and frame numbers never match either. (only ever saw one instance of matching numbers and that's on an RM370 in the US)

[Simo63]

Thanks guys, I'll use the above to check the frame numbers I have and tag each frame with a year so I don't forget.

Looks like I do have one pretty good 74 frame (with a bit of grinding and welding around the brake cable area) but I'm still looking for a mint unmolested one so might wait a couple of weeks before starting the deconstruction and reconstruction process.

[Rossvickicampbell]

John - general consensus never works - we all know that and there are a million and one examples throughout everywhere to show you why.  And to claim an official is a Nazi because they followed the rules is a bit rough.  I feel for Simo - regardless of where you come from it is expensive - but as has been said this is not a club ride day - it's the Nats.  If this was allowed what does that say to every one else that spent many hours and dollars making sure their bikes complied.  I feel sorry for Simo because he didn't know before hand.  I was fortunate because with my YZB there was plenty of assistance letting me know what I had to do to make it eligible - I think that is the point that was missed here.  But it certainly isn't a scrutineering fault.

If I have read you comment wrong I apologise but I certainly don't think the scrutineers/system is at fault here.

[Montynut]

Simo, post up some photo's of your 74 frames and lets see what your up against.

Lower Shock Mount:

Mate looking at the above photo it very much looks like a '75 swingarm that has been modified to look like a '74. The space between the axle slot and tube joint, position of the shock relative to the axle and the threaded hole location seems to indicate a modified '75 arm.

Really sorry to hear about your issue at the Nats and I have to comend you on the way you have handled it as I am not sure that I would have been the same.

The really strange thing is that the '75 TM250M is not legal even when modified to replicate a '74  yet my understanding is you can run a centre port TS400 and all is OK but unfortunately they are the rules.

I have to agree that the Scrutineers are not to blame here

[Curly3]

At last years DT titles in Brisbane, a friend of mine turned up with what he had purchased as a complete and original 1977 RM 250, it was picked up at scrutineering that the forks were actually off a 78 model, I'm not sure what the difference is but it would hardly make a difference on DT but thems the rules.
He was allowed to ride up a class and he ended up winning it.
I have no doubt we'll be talking about yet another example after next years Nats.

[John Orchard]

John - general consensus never works - we all know that and there are a million and one examples throughout everywhere to show you why.  And to claim an official is a Nazi because they followed the rules is a bit rough.  I feel for Simo - regardless of where you come from it is expensive - but as has been said this is not a club ride day - it's the Nats.  If this was allowed what does that say to every one else that spent many hours and dollars making sure their bikes complied.  I feel sorry for Simo because he didn't know before hand.  I was fortunate because with my YZB there was plenty of assistance letting me know what I had to do to make it eligible - I think that is the point that was missed here.  But it certainly isn't a scrutineering fault.

If I have read you comment wrong I apologise but I certainly don't think the scrutineers/system is at fault here.

Thanks  :-)  nah I wasn't having a go at the official, he was just doing his job, maybe I was steering my concern to the rulebook?  What is a 'Nazi' but someone that follows through on the rulings of a higher power, whether it be wrong or right.  As I said previously, when I am racing it doesn't matter what level the racing is (club or National), I abide to the letter of the rules (when you're a big mouth like me, you have to abide lol).  I was just thinking that it takes the pressure off a scrutineering official if eligibility concerns were initiated by rider protests, and then followed up by a scrutineering official with the rule book.

The 99% of riders are still going to adhere to the rules, for fear of a rider backlash, so it wouldn't get out of hand.

That way, if it's a petty matter that no one is worried about, it doesn't become an issue.

Anyhow, enough of my crap, back to the frame ;-) ........

[Simo63]

Lower Shock Mount:

Mate looking at the above photo it very much looks like a '75 swingarm that has been modified to look like a '74. The space between the axle slot and tube joint, position of the shock relative to the axle and the threaded hole location seems to indicate a modified '75 arm.

I agree Montynut, it looks different to the other swing arms I have so I suspect that it's been modified (aside from the strengthening rib) in terms of shock position.  I don't want to take the chance that it's not right so won't use it on the reconstructed bike.

A couple of questions:
1. Am I allowed to strengthen the swing arm with bracing?
2. Can anyone identify the shock in this picture? There are no identifying marks on it and it's previously been repainted so I have NFI what it's from.  It is rebuilable if that helps.
3. What length shock do I need to comply to the regs with an standard/unmolested frame and swingarm?

Thanks

[TM BILL]

Firstly Simo / Craig has handled this whole incident with dignity and integrity and huge respect to him for that . Mate your new to the sport but with your attitude you will bring a hell of a lot to the sport and all power to you  
Get that bike sorted and get out there and enjoy it .

Quote "
Myself and plenty of others had alloy swingarms on '77 RM's without a problem.. why people think you can't use them has got me forked."

John i think the concensus is that after market arms are ok , its the optional Suzuki arm that for some Dog unknown reason the officials wont accept , no matter what evidence is produced  I truly believe this issue has become a matter of ego 
 
Quote "  And to claim an official is a Nazi because they followed the rules is a bit rough. " Probably is a bit rough , but i wonder if the bike would have got through Scrutineering with different scrutineers (ie less Suzuki product Knowledge)  

As has been said the bike has been scrutineered many times before with no problems , but in this case it was a problem   Consistentcy and continuity would add credibility to the whole scrutineering process .

Quote " The really strange thing is that the '75 TM250M is not legal even when modified to replicate a '74  yet my understanding is you can run a centre port TS400 and all is OK but unfortunately they are the rules."

That is a very strange one   TS 400A 1976 / 77 different frame , different motor but its a flow on   I actually think that particular flow on rule is a good one   but if you modify your 75 TM to 74 specs wheres the problem   there are a few others that should be considered flow on models ie 1975 / 76 KX 125 (only the 125 ) as there is bugger all difference to the 74 model .



On the day the official can only apply what he interprets to be the understanding of the rule in the book, if he has a knowledge of the product then he will pick up things others in his position would possibly miss   but i doubt there is an official out there who knows every detail of every make model that gets presented .

Quote "
Vintage Suzuki's serial no page  has some 73's and 75's starting in 4, my opinion is that it is just a coincidence that all 74's start with 4. the other cc numbers are all over the place.
        
            Model Frame Number Engine Number
  
1971 TM400R  10001 - 15999  10001 - 15999  
  
1972 TM250J  10001 - 34738  10001 - 34749  
        TM400J  16600 - 30000  16600 - 30005  
  
1973 TM125K  10001 - 20578  10001 - 20602  
        TM250K  34739 - 41776  34750 - 41823  
        TM400K  30001 - 33481  30006 - 33499  
  
1974 TM100L  10001 - 17205  10001 - 17225  
        TM125L  20579 - 43174  20603 - 44498  
        TM250L  41777 - 49510  41824 - 49588  
        TM400L  33482 - 40917  33500 - 40956  
  
1975 TM75M  20705 - 27487  20720 - 27777  
      TM100M  17206 - Up To RM100A  17226 - Up To RM100A  
      TM125M  43175 - Up To RM125M  44499 - Up To RM125M  
      TM250M  49511 - Up To RM250A  49589 - Up To RM250A  
      TM400M  40918 - Up To RM370A  40957 - Up To RM370A  "

While the vintage Suzuki list is very helpfull i doubt weather it would carry any weight with officials at events. Its a list compiled by a Vintage parts supplier and  while i dont doubt its accuracy i wouldn't take it as gospel .

I do believe that Moms needs a serious tidy up and that maybe Lozzas log book system has some merit  

[Montynut]

The shocks look like period Mulholland that have been painted Suzuki yelow instead of the orange/red they would have been originally.

John I am afraid your definition of NAZI is just possibly a little broad .

[John Orchard]

Yeh I'd call the shock 'Boge Mulholland's that were originally orange with alloy finning.

[Doc]

here's a few more ID charts, the 2nd is from a Suzuki publication

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=86267C09A3452A71!4758&authkey=!APOaaYSXU3CTYy0

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=86267C09A3452A71!787&authkey=!AO69YbI8BFUme1E