All time great bikes?

[Phil]

There are some interesting choices made by you blokes but I think many of you have missed the object of the post. It isn't 'My Favourite Bike' , it's 'Milestone Bikes'. As nice as the Kawasaki KLX250, KX250C, CR250 Red Devil, CRF250 and XT500 Yammy are, it's a long stretch to describe them as milestone bikes, especially the KLX. I think Firko and Cyclegod are on the right track. Most of the bikes on their lists actually formed new directions in dirt bike development. For what it's worth here are some bikes I think left their mark on dirt bike history:
* circa 1952 MATCHLESS G80. The first production motocross bike. Like them or not, the G80 started it all.
*1963 TRIUMPH METISSE. The Rickmans introduced quality workmanship to a sport where the bikes had previously been regarded as two wheeled versions of speedway stock cars. The first bike to use fibreglass as a serious weight saver.
* 1968 YAMAHA DT1. The one bike we all agree on for all of the above reasons.
* 1969 BULTACO SHERPA T. The first production trials bike for the masses. The Sherpa T 'Sammy Miller Replica' was the trials equivalent of the DT1. Some argue for the Yamaha TY250 but the Bully did it 4 years earlier and changed the design of trials bikes for ever
* 1974 HONDA XR75. The first serious bike for kids.
* 1973 Honda CR250. The first seriously competitive Japanese MXer. Set new standards in finish and innovation.
*1974 YAMAHA YZ250/360. The first monoshock. It was far from perfect but started a suspension battle that continues today.
*1974 MAICO. The first long travel bike and the first "perfect" motocrosser. By that I mean it was the first bike where the engine and chassis complemented each other. Previously it was a great engine in a fair to ordinary frame (Yamaha, Can-Am ) or a sad engine in a great frame (AJS Stormer). Maico got the balance right before the opposition.
*1974 HONDA CR125. No bike before or since dominated like the little Elsinore did in 1974. Even the brilliant Suzuki RM125A, which replaced the Elsinore as the class hot dog didn't dominate as thoroughly as the Honda did.
*1976 HUSQVARNA 360 Auto. An engineering masterpiece whose contribution to dirt bike history is sadly overlooked. The Husky Auto worked beautifully and could have changed our sport forever if it had been given fair treatment by the press and Cajiva after the takeover.
*1981 MAICO. If you haven't ridden one, do it before you die. Taking that famous Maico frame/engine balance to new heights. Everyone feels like a world champion riding a 490. A spititual experience.
*1998 YAMAHA YZ400-F. The bike that completed the circle that started when Jeff Smith won the last World 500 title on a 4 stroke BSA back in 1965. The 4 stroke was back with unbelievable technology leaps. It set the new standard for MX bike development and killed the 2 stroke just like the CZ had done to the 4 stroke in 1966.

[Rossvickicampbell]

and to continue the "controversial" subject

I disagree - everybody's opinion of what was best/is best/was a milestone is different and I dont think we have missed the point.  The RM 250Z was light years in front for the year, was definitely the best (as asked earlier) in its class in its year.

In actual fact it isn't Favourite bikes (yes you're right) but not just milestone bikes but also the best bikes and always open to opinion!!!

cheers

Rossco

[BAHNZY]

Most have been covered but one stands out in my mind. The Husaberg's that Joels Smetts road to numerous world titles on. At a time when owning a 4st motorosser meant that you had to deal with 120 plus kilos, the Husaberg range was sub 100 kgs (albeit by a few grams). This was back in the mid 90's and was way before the pre production twin port YZ400M.
The bike changed history (in my mind) because KTM bought out the company, used the technology to build the 99 and onwards SOHC 4 stroke engine and introduced us to a whole new range of KTM 4 strokes, something that were ridiculed for, for many years.

[vmx42]

B???
A good comprehensive list. A few missing, most notably anything Yellow. RM125C, RM125D [the first full floater].

One thing I do disagree with [is it still OK to do that in our new politically correct forum - Oh bugger it, here we go] is the YZ400. That bike will go down in history as the bike that killed motocross [abeit it was just a response to foolish rule making by the FIM and AMA].

Since its introduction bike prices have gone thru the roof and the cost of a rebuild is off the dial. The main advantage of motocross [and dirt bikes in general] compared to almost any other form of motorsport is [or was?] it's relatively low cost. It is possible to be competitive in almost any event on a modified stock bike - try that anywhere else.

At present all is sweet. The world economy is bubbling along but when the next adjustment comes, all the trendys will dump their overpriced toys and move on to the next [cheaper] fad.

Motocross Action summed it up when they said:

If you could buy a bike that was 20lbs lighter, can be rebuilt for a few hundred dollars [by a home mechanic], makes twice the horsepower [per cc] then you'd buy it!!!!

Funny thing is you used to be able to.

Just one more point. I remember the manufacturers moaning on and on about the environmental benefits of the new 4-strokes. I would love to see an emissions test done on one - for some reason nobody has ever bothered - I bet it wouldn't make pretty reading. Also, when you add in all the additional parts that need to be manufactured and their resultant carbon footprint it doesn't seem like such a sweet deal. And we won't even mention the BLOODY NOISE THE STUPID THINGS PUT OUT!!!!!!

History will be the judge, but I know where this old cynic would put his money.

Ah! That feels better. A good Friday evening winge to relieve the tensions of the working week. Sorry for hijacking this post but I do feel better.

VMX42

[090]

Hopefully we will be around for that full circle thing to kick in and 2 strokes will rule once more....

[cyclegod]

RM125D [the first full floater]

I think you must mean the RM125/250/465 "X" as being the first full floater models

[vmx42]

Hey cyclegod,
Good to know your keeping an eye on me. DoH!!!

I told you I was a bit emotional after a long week. Well that's my excuse anyway.
VMX42

[TM BILL]

*1998 YAMAHA YZ400-F. The bike that completed the circle that started when Jeff Smith won the last World 500 title on a 4 stroke BSA back in 1965. The 4 stroke was back with unbelievable technology leaps. It set the new standard for MX bike development and killed the 2 stroke just like the CZ had done to the 4 stroke in 1966.

4 stroke 500cc world champions since 1966
1993  Jacky Martens Sweden Husqvarna
1995  Joel Smets      Belgium Husaberg
1997  Joel Smets      Belgium Husaberg
1998  Joel Smets      Belgium Husaberg
1999 Andrea Bartolini Yamaha Italia

[Yamaboy]

I agree with many of the choices and have to agree with VMX42 about the Yamaha YZ400-f being detrimental to our sport.  I'm not sure that they are even as groundbreaking as the 610 Husky was in 1992. It had most of the so called innovations that the Yamaha is noted for, six years earlier. In addition they're as reliable as a sewing machine and still stand up to most modern opposition fifteen years later.

I don't think that too many Suzukis are listed because as good as Suzukis are, there isn't much original innovation in their lineup. Sure the RM125-360 A was an amazingly successful model range but they didn't create anything new, being purely  great bikes using accepted engineering criteria of the time, nothing new or groundbreaking, just good sound engineering. You could say the same about the Elsinores too but they were such a quantum leap from anything previously manufactured in Japan they deserve their listing. The Suzuki RMa was merely a little hop forward by comparison. The RM250 Z was indeed a great bike, in fact I had one myself but it didn't cross any engineering or performance bridges andy more than the Honda and Yamaha of the same era. Just being quicker than the opposition doesn't make it a milestone bike. Suzuki does deserve a jersey for the X model Full Floater rear end though. It was the best rear suspension, (along with Huskys dual shock setup) of the era. So, if a Suzuki must be listed, I'd go for the RM250X because it made the quantum leap before the Z model.

Naturally this is only one blokes opinion and I'm sure the Suzuki boys will jump right onto me. That's cool. We are never going to agree on the best as our own personal bias will always cloud judgement. Just looking at everyones lists and knowing what I've observed about them, personal bias is well and truly alive. Doc's Suzuki RM 125 A and Ajays inclusion of three Kawasakis make my point. Even my choice of the DT1 as the Quantum leap bike of the era reeks of my personal bias. Why wouldn't I pick the TS Suzuki Savage over the DT1? If the truth be known, the Suzi is a much better bike. But it ain't a Yamaha. I'd also pick the PeeWee 50 over the XR75. See what I mean?

[Phil]

Right you are TM Bill. I knew that Jackie Martens broke the 2 stroke hold in 1993. I don't know where I was headed with my YZ400 description. The rum made me do it! Sorry for the f#*k up.

[Nathan S]

I was deliberately vague in my original post - the word "best" can mean a lot of things to different people... Phil's right though - I was aiming more for the stand out bikes over the personal favourites.

So everyone's at least partly right. 

I didn't think the YZ-F400 was a problem bike - they seemed to be vastly more reliable than the early~mid 2000 four-strokes - and they did (finally) offer something revolutionary in the market-place which had been lacking for the previous decade. And they did so without being a 'weird Euro bike'.
In terms of emissions stuff, the killer is the oil we deliberately burn in our two-strokes that makes them unpopular with the powers that be (rightly or wrongly). Whether this did/would have any relevance in a closed-circuit competition environment like MX, I don't really know, but given that the MX, enduro and trail worlds are all quite close, I suspect that the manufacturers felt that they had to jump into the four-stroke realm before they were pushed.

[Quicksilver]

Personal favourites. No other reason then ive owned some of them, enjoyed a ride on all them. Or just plain like em.

CR250m, CR125m, XL175, RM370, 250, 125,,,TS100, 185, 250, 400,  TM400,250,125,  YZ80B,C,D... XR75, Bultaco Pursang 370, Maico 440 pre 78. CR480, RM500, YZ250A... XL motorsports 250, 350, MT125, 250..MR50.

As I say. These are personal favourites

[ocd]

just a couple that havent been mentioned it490 k very scary but awsome  even though it never came home with the same amount of bolts it went out with  it was one hell of a buzz and for a modern one any KTM LC4 i know the husky came out first but these are a great bike basic design since the mid 1990s still going strong ive owned xr 500 and 600 the ktm leaves them for dead handling power reliability paris dakar say it all
cheers

[DJRacing]

There are alot of great bikes talked about in here and as a milestone bike the YZ125-250J models should slip in here for the introduction of the powervalve. I remember reading in Aust DirtBike saying that they thought it was just another gimick like the yamaha boost bottle and that the powervalve will be gone in a years time!!

[Lozza]

Must have forgotten the Honda 750 4, Kawasaki Z 900, Yamaha RD 350 LC, Kawasaki 750 triple, Suzuki GSX-R 750, RZ/RG 500,Ducati 851/916, Honda RC 30, CBR 919 Fireblade and the Yamaha R1.
The BMW GS ,the Honda RC range and Yamaha OW range of works on and off road bikes.
What about the Honda Cub with only 50 million or so made and still made in their original guise.