All time great bikes?

[yzhilly]

Come on you blokes is the YZ-F400 on the list or not i dont know if i should pack mine in mothballs or just keep thrashing it every week. ?

[AjayVMX]

As nice as the modern 4 strokes seem to be, I 100% agree that they will be the death of our sport.

I was just in the USA and someone who is very well connected to the MX scene said that MX bike sales were down 15% so far this year, the first reduction in sales for over a decade.  While things are a bit tight in the USA at present, the most likely factor is the huge repair costs for these highly strung machines and this may be the first indication that things are going awry.

We all get pretty worked up about high prices for Vintage bikes on this forum, i.e. anything >$3000, but image how you would feel when you buy a $12,000 bike new and then have to spend another $3000 on it in the first year to keep it running....

So on that basis, maybe the YZF400 should be on the list - but for the wrong reason

[yzhilly]

Come on they have a extra cam and a couple more valves and you can race them without having anodised,autograghed and balanced levers,pedals,pegs,stand and van you just wont look as cool. As for 3 Gs to do one up someone is getting ripped off.

[Anthony.522]

Do any of you guys actually own or have owned a modern 4 stroke? Seeing these bikes are made for motocross ask the racers what they would rather be racing? If you look at motoGP and mx/sx the bikes all went one way. They made average riders good and good riders better, the 2 smokes were at the end of there technology, and 4 strokes have got so much more that can be done to them. Why work harder when you dont have to?? But if you like getting slapped around and holding on for dear life because it makes you feel faster... hey whatever floats your boat as long as you enjoy it. You can go out and buy a new CRF from the showroom, set race sag, add numbers and it's good enough at the national level. And dont believe the hype when it comes to maintenance, as long as you keep the air filter clean, oil in good condition you wont have problems, it costs me $80 to have my valves adjusted and i get that done maybe 2-3 times a year, and replaced maybe once which around $800, but thats a bike that gets ridden 2-3 times a week and gets raced at all the state/regional rounds. It's like with anything, if you look after it, it will look after you.

So the YZ400F should be on the list, it kicked of a great new era, if we just stuck with the 2 strokes where would they be now? they would be the same and that would be boring. But now, every year the bikes are better, new things like efi are coming out, there getting quieter, and the sky's the limit and the YZ400F helped kick that off.

yzhilly were you at Frankston yesterday?

[AjayVMX]

An interesting response.

On any level playing field comparison, the 2 stroke is still WAY better than a 4 stroke in my view.  They produce more and better power per cc, they are lighter, they are quieter, they are more reliable.

The only reason that the 4 strokes are competitive at all or possibly considered superior now, was because the rules were changed to allow larger capacity 4 strokes to be compared with and raced against smaller 2 strokes.   They are still heavier of course....

No, I haven't owned a modern day 4 stroke, but I know a lot of people who have and have ended up spending large amounts of cash on them just to keep them running.  Similarly, I have many friends who have 2 strokes still and spend little or nothing on them to keep them running - no, not nearly $1000.00 per year as you admit you are spending (not including regular oil changes).

Bottom line is to ask the following question:  If the rules were changed to limit 4 strokes to say 350cc against a 250cc 2 stroke, would anyone race a 4 stroke?  I think not.

[DJRacing]

Over here (NZ) they are talking about running a 250cc class. So it will be interesting to see the 250F's up against the 250 2 strokers.

Sorry about changing the tread.

But back to the real important stuff like, the best looking bikes of any era in my oppinion would have ta be the last of the twinshockers like the 1980 CR's; the RM-T's; YZ-G's; KX-A5's and the euro models of the same era are way cool too.

[AjayVMX]

yes, that certainly would be interesting.  I'm betting that the 2 strokes will hose the 4 strokes.

Keep us informed....

[Freakshow]

i dont care how good 4 strokes are you can keep em.  I want an idiot proof ride that if it fails at the track, after driving an hour to get there i can look at it and go petrol+spark=run.  cant sy the same for some of the bikes on the trailers

im a lazy hack, and never service my 2 strokes and they just keep on going, my o1 Ktm get out every month and i have never had the head off, and im sure it needs a piston or at least rings  by now.  yet i know guys i used to ride with who have bounced valves and destroyed those 4 strokers and basically it was cheaper to sell the bike for its parts than it was to pay the rebuilt.  just flick on ebay to see the abount of these things and parts for sale and most refer to a dead ride.

Those 4 strokers look to much like hard work and who can afford to pay to keep getting them serviced if im paying 10k this thing shouldnt need more money spent on it.  I would never buy a 2nd hand 4 stroke - your risking your life !

[Anthony.522]

It's all good, it's all debate if we all had the same opinion it would be pretty boring....like a 2 stroke ...jokes guys just joking, dont send hate mail hehehe. Would I ride/race a 350 four stroke?, hell yeah i would and so would everyone else, i think they would be a good balance, the 450's are awesome, but way more power then anyone really needs, i think 350 would be good, i'd even race a 250 four stroke with 250 two strokes. Not trying to sound cocky but those 250f's are light, fast and very capable and you can ride em like that all day, you dont get tired any where near as quick, you wouldnt have the same pull up hills or the torque but they are capable units Ryan Villopoto in the states is posting same times as James Stewart. Never had a issue with the 4 stroke at the track, it always starts and does what i want it to.In regards to better power If you like changing gears alot and riding the clutch hey cool, i like cornering in 3rd and not having to touch the clutch to keep it on the boil, it's just always there 
I'm not trying to convince anyone to go out and buy a four stroke, i'm just trying to point out that there not as bad as everyone thinks and i think they are fairly underestimated on these forums, ride what makes you happy and suits your lifestyle. Theres so many more of them out there thats why your hearing about it more. I've got a friends CR250 sitting here which it's big end bearings let go and killed the cases, same sort of deal his $2500 bike that he rode twice needs about $2000 worth of work, it's a risk you run buying anything second hand, especially a race bike. We called the wreckers he just laughed and said join the que so it not only a handful it happens to.
In NZ if they do put the two bikes together look for a lot of unhappy 2 stroke racers, thats my tip. The 2 stroke might have the goods on the straight but a motocross track isnt straight. Thats my tip  besides who the hell wants to pre mix petrol  alright alright i'm going, i'm gone, off to check my valves.

[AjayVMX]

By the way Anthony, have you ever ridden a 500cc 2 Stroke?  If you want to be lazy and stay in a high gear - they are the ones for you!

And of course, lap times on smaller bikes have always been deceptively fast, even in the 2 stroke era - its just that when you put the less powerful bike on the same track as a more powerful one, it rarely gets the start and is often passed easily on the straights.  The advantage of faster corning is usually lost by being behind in the first instance....

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that the new four strokes are undoubtedly nice bikes to ride, but the point I (and others) are making is that they aren't BETTER than the 2 strokes they replaced, which a lot of people seem to believe.  They are merely predominant as a result of the racing rules being written to make them more competitive than 2 strokes at the moment...

[yzhilly]

Yeah anthony i was at frankston on saturday arvo .I had a 78 YZ400 and a 98 YZ400 on the trailer the old one hits harder and doesnt stop and the suspension bottoms on every bump but it is getting faster every time out , i got the forks sorted, changed to 20wt oil & 7 psi and it worked good for my weight. The rear is still to soft but the engine is farking awesome and everbody goes wow, cool bike. The 98 model i just find a suitable fence to lean on so i can start the mutha and just ride ,it's fast ,stops and the suspension soaks up bumps that make you grit your teeth, and sometimes it smacks you on ya head and leaves you wondering what tha fark just happened. As for 4 strokes being the death of MX i dont think the  sales execs will let that slide continue there has been plenty of ups and downs in motorcycle history so far i wonder what the kids will be riding in 30 years time and my kids are trying to get my YZF400 off me to race VMX. MY List. YZ80E,YZ100K,YZ250J,YZ490K, Only cause i owned them as i grew up .

[Anthony.522]

No I havent ridden a 500 yet but it's on top of  my wish list of bikes to ride.... are you offering?  I've been on a few gates and seen a few gates of mixed classes from big start straights like Barrabool to others the 250's arent really that far behind. I see your point, we'll agree to disagree but with Honda stopping production it will only be a matter of time before other follow suite, I dont think the euro guys will but time will tell, especially with these new 150's coming out....who knows. Two strokes were around for say 30 or more years and the new crop of 4 bangers since 97.... we'll see what happens, it will be exciting and i cant wait to ride them.
yzhilly i was parked next to you, i was in the white van with the white CRF that was covered in mud, me and my mate were sharing, we have not ridden for three weeks and we were itching for a ride and unfortunately Frankston was it. We put some good laps there were alot of fun bits but some bad bits like just before the finish table top. The loop track was more fun those back two berms were just too much fun, got nice and low.

[Tim754]

Honda CB754 K series, All time best , used the engine in ALL types of motorcycle sports (Yes have seen a trials sidecar with one!) and the 754  won them all. Heard rumors they changed the on road bike scene a bit too, like bike of the last century stuff!................ $10000 for a new MXer, be nice!, but just been offered a Vmx Sidecar frame(is very poxy!!!yuk) with fourteen yep FOURTEEN complete spare 754 engines for $4000.
CR500 and KX500 so good for so long with bugger all changes really! Finding riders that could use all there power was a bit hard Suzi Tm125 just kept on going and giving heaps and heaps of pleasure. Early CR125s Angry, Loading up little buggers
Changed the MX world more than any Other! fill it with fuel, start up ,race win! fork all this setting up suspension , checking tyre profiles, disk brakes , electric starts, and all the bling shit! just race it out of the crate.  Cheers Tim

[Lozza]

Anthony, I won't shatter all your illusions about the modern 4T engine just point out all the factual errors.
MotoGP went 4T it was of course a 990cc format which is nearly double the prevoius capacity,with a corresponding halving of the grid size.
If you think that 2T engine developement is dead think again, today's 250GP engines pump out (what they admitt to) over a 110rwhp.Try to get that from a 250 4T engine.
TM,KTM and Gas Gas show no signs of stopping production and there still be a KX,YZ and RM 250 to buy at your dealer.A 300 doesn't stop Juha Salminen from winning world championships.The 144 2T's were knobbled out of competition why I wonder?
A 250 2T mxer would pump out mid 50's hp and have truckloads of low end torque(but not as much as the 4T) but be 10kg lighter.
I doubt very much if a standard bike will be competitve at a national level unless it has a international level rider onboard.
Whatever electronic tricks can be applied to a modern 4T you can apply the same to a 2T engine
Hmmm 07 RM 250 with electronic powervalve control,probramable ignition,powerjet cutout,traction control, TPS .......

[mx250]

Anthony, I won't shatter all your illusions about the modern 4T engine just point out all the factual errors.
MotoGP went 4T it was of course a 990cc format which is nearly double the prevoius capacity,with a corresponding halving of the grid size.
If you think that 2T engine developement is dead think again, today's 250GP engines pump out (what they admitt to) over a 110rwhp.Try to get that from a 250 4T engine.
TM,KTM and Gas Gas show no signs of stopping production and there still be a KX,YZ and RM 250 to buy at your dealer.A 300 doesn't stop Juha Salminen from winning world championships.The 144 2T's were knobbled out of competition why I wonder?
A 250 2T mxer would pump out mid 50's hp and have truckloads of low end torque(but not as much as the 4T) but be 10kg lighter.
I doubt very much if a standard bike will be competitve at a national level unless it has a international level rider onboard.
Whatever electronic tricks can be applied to a modern 4T you can apply the same to a 2T engine
Hmmm 07 RM 250 with electronic powervalve control,probramable ignition,powerjet cutout,traction control, TPS .......

 

And then we'll talk about owning a four stroke 12 months and doing the maintenance and a rebuild.

The momentum for four stroke came from Calfiornia and emission requirements, and other markets considerations rather then some inate engineering advantage of four strokes.

I'm not quite sure why two stroke development stagnated but it has a lot more potential including power, economy and emission cleanliness - look to Everude outboards.

I wonder what lap times GP500 would be doing with the elaborate electronic traction control of the current MotoGP's?

Don't take this as an argument against modern four strokes, I have a WR250F and it's superb, but that is not to say that two stroke don't have their appeal.