Author Topic: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO  (Read 137778 times)

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Offline VMX247

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #195 on: February 16, 2011, 09:31:10 pm »
It was said of Malcolm that if all the w/c rounds where held in the UK he would have been world champ.
Every rider loves their home tracks  ;)  :)
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Offline jerry

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #196 on: February 17, 2011, 08:39:47 am »
Would anyone have the starting list for the now iconic 1973 Spanish 250cc GP. It would be interesting to chase down the other "factory" Bultaco riders to confirm what they were actually riding and perhaps comment on any differences between their bikes. Allison has made a good point that if JP had a "special" bike would that have not bred disharmony amongst the other Bultaco riders especially as he was the new kid on the block (in the GP sense) whilst they were established GP riders who presumably would have also benefited from a "special" bike. That's not for a moment to suggest that JP wasn't "special" That reputation was established during practice and the race but not before. Here we go again! Cheers Jerry PS How you feeling Firko, do you have the confidence to tear one off yet?

Offline VMX247

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #197 on: February 17, 2011, 09:05:20 am »
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reading between Frank Mellings lines.
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It appears that he and Melling were mates
It'd be interesting to get Malcolms take on the frame situation...got any contact Tim?


Malcolm's not easy to contact anymore-he's doing skids in heaven  :) Hope you feeling better today Firko!
I believe you can contact Frank Melling on his bike show website http://www.thundersprint.com/
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Offline huskibul

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #198 on: February 17, 2011, 09:13:43 am »
   Would be interesting to see who else was on the startline as well ,  - joel , hakan, harry etc ?

Offline JC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #199 on: February 17, 2011, 10:03:38 am »
I was going to give this thread a break as it seemed to be winding down a bit, but...


 In Frank Mellings 'The Big Leap' I found a number of references to Greeves, AJS and Bultaco works rider Malcolm Davis from Wales. It appears that he and Melling were mates,

Melling says as much (p99):

"Davis was a good friend of mine & a man whom I respected both personally & as a rider"


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Seeing that his team mate had won the first GP of the season on what appears to be an identical bike, sends me the message that Davis may have been a bit suspicious that Pomeroy’s bike was more special than his

He didn't have to be suspicious that it was more special than his. Just check out the rear hub, the guards & the shocks on JPs bike. That pre-prod'n Mk7 hub was uber-trick in early 73 especially compared to a std pursang rear hub of the day. According to Mellings test of Davis's 73 UK championship winning bike, Davis didn't get that hub till after the end of the UK season. Its obvious JPs bike was "more special" than the others. The question that raises is: why JP? (I think there are a few answers)

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Perhaps Melling assumption that Pomeroy’s bike had a ‘special American made Chro-Mo frame had come via Davis?

The US-made bit may have been an assumption via Davis, but the cro-mo bit could well have come via JP's other UK team mate, Vic Allan. Remember this from Vic (from VMX#7, p67):

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"I ended up doing the 250s (ie GP circuit in 73) on a standard production pursang w the barrel tuned by Tony Dowe, now director of racing at Arrows F1 team. When JP broke one of the lightweight cro-mo frames I was given it & had it welde up".

We seem to be going around in circles now, going over the same ground we've been over & perhaps forgetting whats been posted.

There is a consistency to the reports about a cro-mo frame from various sources that makes it hard to doubt it (in chronological order from closest to the event):

from JP via Dirt Bike I'view
from JP via CI I'view
from John Huetter, the US journo travelling w JP all season
from JPs GP team mate Vic Allan
from JPs US team mate Kenny Zart


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Why did Jim make the American Made claim when even his brother denies the truth of the statement

Mark, its a bit of a quantum leap to that from this:

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Unfortunately, Ron couldn't shed any further light on the subject, his take being that he thought that the bike had been a total stocker



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The big question in my mind now is, Why did Jim make the American Made claim

I go back to this:

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Were JPs claims (that it was US made) a case of trumped-up patriotic hubris about US expertise/involvement thats typical of the yanks?

Or this:

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I would guess it was more likely to be an assumption or misunderstanding 

I take you back to what JP himself was quoted as saying about it. He raises the patriotic bit himself:

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About all it had was a cro-mo frame made in the states. Its not very good. Its made too light & it cracks everywhere. The Bul factory frame is better-handling cos it feels like its stronger & doesnt flex as much, but that day I was patriotic & I said, OK, I'll use everything American today

That last bit has always sounded so artificial to me!


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right now the evidence points towards the frame being a factory built lightweight pre production Mk VII style unit.

Yes, for me, the various reports again point that way as the most likely scenario.

Another bit of evidence that points that way is that the bike Melling tested "just weeks after" he won the UK Championship was Davis' 73 bike & its clearly a pre-prod'n Mk7 Pursang (w a couple of exceptions) in Mk6 colours weighing "208lbs ready to race" . ie Davis campaigned a pre-prod'n MK7 w lightweight frame during the 73 season too, even if he got it a little later than JP did. 

Hopefully I'll post a pic or 2 of that bike shortly (which shows the couple of exceptions)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 11:10:46 am by JC »

mx250

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #200 on: February 17, 2011, 10:28:44 am »
I think this is an interesting study in History and Memory.

My daughter is currently studying for year 12 HSC and is dealing with this aspect as part of her history studies. They say that both are important to understanding but History is factual and Memory is emotional and subjective.

I'll continue to follow the thread with interest. The Truth is out there. ;)

  8) :)

Offline JC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #201 on: February 17, 2011, 10:36:04 am »
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Its obvious JPs bike was "more special" than the others. The question that raises is: why?


Seems to me there's a few reasons why JP got the special stuff 1st, right from the start of the GP season:

He'd just come off a fairly successful TransAMA & MX des Nations

The US market was massively important to Bulto & therefore hugely influential (they exported around 70% of their entire prod'n to Nth America)

The US Bul riders were already using lightweight frames in the US

JP made the effort to do pre-season traing & racing in Belgium (where many other top contenders did too), where he won his 1st race in Europe (even if it was a 125 race)

He showed remarkable improvement there (cutting lap time from 2min 35sec to 2 min 7sec)

JPs tutor/mentor was Marcel Weirtz, the belgium Bul importer (& GP rider), thro where Bultacos GP effort seems to have been largely run at that time. Presumably Weirtz would have been fairly influential w the factory & reported JPs progress

I think by then Davis was a mid-pack GP runner, esp outside UK, & Vic Allan was at the beginning of his carreer (& wanted to ride the 500 class anyway on the 400 proto)

JP was 'larger than life' & may well have been a 'favourite'

Somebody had to get the trick parts first! (if there weren't enough to go around)

firko

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #202 on: February 17, 2011, 10:37:28 am »
No luck getting through to Arnie.....I'll try again over the weekend.
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I was going to give this thread a break as it seemed to be winding down a bit
You've got to be kidding ??? John....after page after page of supposition, we're finally getting close to the truth.
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Why did Jim make the American Made claim when even his brother denies the truth of the statement
Mark, its a bit of a quantum leap to that from this:
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Unfortunately, Ron couldn't shed any further light on the subject, his take being that he thought that the bike had been a total stocker
What's this quatum leap you speak of JC? I spoke to him and know damn well what he said. I was wondering out aloud as to why Jim would make such a statement yet his brother call it bullshit.

I have a nutty professor theory that I'll hoist up the flagpole........
We've previously discussed the poor quality steel used in Spanish manufacturing so I won't rehash the point ;). Because of that steel being inferior, would it not be a possibility that the Chrome-Moly tubing used to manufacture the brazed pre production Mk7 frame as described by Kenny Zarht had been imported from the USA? That would give some sort of credence to the American connection......Spanish made using American materials ;). .

Offline Slakewell

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #203 on: February 17, 2011, 11:15:51 am »
Did not the spanish factories smuggle tubeing back into the country in there GP trucks?
I thought it was a common practice to have CM frames for a few made from the real stuff.
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Offline JC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #204 on: February 17, 2011, 11:30:03 am »
Mark, the quantum leap I refer to is in what you posted:  in the 1st post you said Ron couldn't shed any light on the subject, & that his take was that he thought the bike was a stocker - rather indefinite to say the least - then in the later post you said he "denies" the US-made/cro-mo bit.

No offense but for me, thats a huge jump. (We can only go on what you post from that conversation.)

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would it not be a possibility that the Chrome-Moly tubing used to manufacture the brazed pre production Mk7 frame as described by Kenny Zarht had been imported from the USA? That would give some sort of credence to the American connection......Spanish made using American materials

Yes, I don't think thats nutty at all (tho it doesn't account for JPs claims that he took a bike out of the crate in Spain). Its entirely possibly, tho I beleive under Franco you couldn't offically import any such thing, but there are other means of obtaining such quality tubing. (AS Slakewell said while I was typing)

I think it just as likely (& perhaps more so) that they would have used tubing smuggled back from UK. They had reportedly already been doing that for years for the factory trials riders.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 12:33:33 pm by JC »

Offline huskibul

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #205 on: February 17, 2011, 11:38:17 am »
  Maybe a purpose built cro-mo frame built by cms to stocker spec at jp's request ? as vmx42 say's "someone will know" :) whether or not they divulge is another question :D
          I think your  nearly on the money firko, he just didnt trust the std frame and either took /sent a frame over(maybe CMS?)or the raw cro-mo material and the secret's still a bit of a secret ! :)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 12:11:20 pm by Huskibul »

Offline JC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #206 on: February 17, 2011, 11:51:32 am »
Here's Davis's 73 UK Championship winning bike:



"208lbs ready to race"

Offline JC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #207 on: February 17, 2011, 12:30:29 pm »

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"The chance of Malcolm Davis's Bultaco beating the Yamaha of Hakan Anderson and the Suzuki of Joel Robert in 1973 was next to nothing. Yet ... his bike was a fine racing motorcycle but chances of success in a World Championship round was negligible because the gap between the factory exotica and his tuned production bike was simply too great to bridge

Melling also says (after heaping praise on the pursang):

"The Bultaco was not competitive at GP level, despite JPs fine, if somewhat unexpected, win in the Spanish GP & the factory, having a good machine in the Mk7, was reluctant to let it go; w the result that they were slow to build the bikes w long travel rear suspension."

(I believe he means the GP bikes, as the MK8 pursang was 1 of the 1st prod'n bikes w LTR)

Its a bit off the topic, but FWIW, & as much as it pains this great-fan-of-Pursangs-since-71 to admit it, I have to agree he's dead right there. As good a bike as the pursang was for the weekend racer all the way to national level, it was only really GP-competitive for 2 GPs at the start of 73. Once Andersson turned up w the cantilver at the 3rd GP it was all over for Bul at GP level & I think JPs results show it (I'll list them shortly).

Other factories were much quicker responding, most notably Maico (who finished 2nd that year).

I still find it incredulous that in the 8th GP, months later (there was a 6wk gap mid-season), JP was still using short travel suspension & even when they did finally modify the bike, it was very conservative for years to come - partly cos JP always said he preferred a lower bike for better cornering, but perhaps also cos of the dated engine design w the sprocket so far from the s'arm pivot.

By 75, this was the works Kaw, Suz & Yam:
(Look at that Suz!)



And this was JPs 75 bike:



Which wasn't much diff to his 74 bike:



which wasn't much diff to.... (look at his 73 bike)

JPs points in 73 moto/moto for ea GP were:
 
 15/8, 6/6, 0/4, 5,0, 0/6, 0/6, 0/0, 10/1, 3/0, 1/0, 0/0

It was 76 before he got half-decent travel (& finished 4th on the circuit) & even then it was behind the others.

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« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 01:18:59 pm by JC »

TooFastTim

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #208 on: February 17, 2011, 12:58:21 pm »
I think this is an interesting study in History and Memory.

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it": WS Chrurchill (who recieved the Nobel prize for literature for his "History of the English speaking peoples".

Offline JC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #209 on: February 17, 2011, 01:21:33 pm »

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I was going to give this thread a break as it seemed to be winding down a bit

You've got to be kidding ??? John....

Sometimes I think I'm having too much to say here