POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO

[firko]

He also claimed JPs bike weighed 15lbs under the FIM weight limilt at the Spanish GP!

John you seem to have dismissed Frank Melling as some sort of charlatan because 1: He "sounds geriatric" and 2: He makes a dubious statement about the weight of a bike that nobody knows the truth about anyway... Mellings book, 'Motocross: The Big Leap' is regarded my many students of our sports history, including myself as one of the better and more informative books written on the period immediately prior to the suspension revolution. It's a classic.
Using that book as a research source, I'd like to pick you up on a small but important  mistake you've attributed to Melling that when quoted correctly puts quite a different slant on your criticism of Mellings statement.
''Jim Pomeroys bike was 15lbs lighter than the standard production bikes at the Spanish Grand Prix thanks largely to his lightweight, American made chrome-molybendum frames" (Frank Melling 'The Big Leap' page 103). The misquote of the bike being "15 lbs under the FIM limit rather than 15 lbs under the weight of a stock Mk6 Pursang puts the quote back into reality. Dropping 15lbs off a lumpy mild steel framed Pursang is most definitely more easily achievable that getting it under the FIM minimum weight limit

[jerry]

Is Frank still alive?

[JC]

Yes Mark, the quote I read (& posted early in the thread) is definitely one of the main reasons I've doubted the 'frame made in US' claims. Back in the day, in the early 70's Melling nearly always did sound like a geriatric to me. But it was the ridiculous-ness of that claim that made me doubt the veracity of the US-made frame claims.

But yr right about the book, "MX; The Big Leap" of which I have a copy & thoroughly enjoy. Much of that was his later work.

The quote you posted above from that book does indeed put an entirely diff -  & believable - slant on it.

However, what I posted is as it was published from Frank's pen in 3/74 CI (edit: which is the only one I was aware of at the time):

"JPs bike was 15lbs under the FIM min wt limit of 196lbs at the Spanish GP"
It wasn't a "misquote"! I'm very particular about quoting accurately.

The 2 amount to entirely different things.


Another couple of clues I think may connect the dots are:

JP says in a couple of reports that he got a new bike from a crate at the factory, implying it was a std pursang. But... a crate from where?  Methinks one that had been shipped from his US dealership! That fits w several of the other reports/claims/clues.

In the 7/74 CI i'view, JP states that after the 72 TransAMA, Bultaco hinted that he go to Europe, so he went to New York to discuss it. They said they'd think it over & most likely fly him over in Jan. It seems the trip was mostly organised by US Bultaco in NY. Perhaps they then put a bike together & shipped it to Spain/factory for the GP. In the mean time JP would ride std bikes in the pre-season races in Belgium. (He would have got there before the crated bike)

Terry Saxland was the owner of the dealership (in Seattle, Washington IIRC) he rode for, but I believe Skip Kretz was the mechanic/builder of some of his US bikes.

More of the dots are starting to connect more convincingly. So, now I am inclining to think it was a US-prepped bike w a US made frame.  

Observing Schwerma’s penchant for promotion and the company’s higher profile, I would also have presumed that the Pomeroy connection would have come to light at some stage during the company’s existence.

Good point. Champion was often in the mags of the day; tests, articles, promo's etc. Also, he seemed to concentrate on Flat-track after his initial foray into MX in 70-71 (as posted above).

What I haven't seen so far is any evidence linking CMS to Bultaco, esp that early. If the bike was shipped from US, it would have had to have been built soon after the end of 72 TransAMA. I haven't seen evidence that CMS existed &/or made frames that early. Tho that doesn't preclude it from being a CMS frame such evidence sure would help.

Perhaps it was neither a Schwerma/Champion, CMS nor Barcelona/factory made frame, but somebody on the east coast. (JP went to NY to "talk it over")  Anybody know any frame makers on the east coast?

I would think that if you could contact Terry Saxland or Skip Kretz, Mark, they would know for sure. (Altho I guess they wouldn't be young now & there's a lot of water under the bridge in 38yrs.)


Interestingly I found a Cycle Imports ad in Jan 75 T&T advertising Hindall, CMS, & TPOS frames for CZs, which I'll post up tomorrow. Has anybody heard of TSOP frames?

[firko]

Interestingly I found a Cycle Imports ad in Jan 75 T&T advertising Hindall, CMS, & TPOS frames for CZs, which I'll post up tomorrow. Has anybody heard of TSOP frames?

On a note of personal interest, I wonder if they actually imported any Hindall frames into Oz? No idea of TSOP.....TS= Terry Saxland? Nah! too convenient!

[GMC]

I know I went over a few of the points you made  JC, I did this for the benefit of others reading this thread to be sure they understood what we were talking about.

I had been wondering if the 15Lb’s lighter than FIM statement was a typo or misquote. 15lb under stock weight makes more sense.

So what is the history of these supposed ‘works’ frames?
Did Bultaco supply any of these to their European riders or was it only the US riders that used them.
If only the US riders, then this makes me think that they were made in the US.
It would be odd for Bultaco to make lightweight frames and not give them to their GP riders as the GP’s would have been more important to them than the US races.
They did seem to have easy access to Cro-Mo in California in the 70’s.

Also looking at those frames it looks to me like the CMS engine cradles are the same as the works frames. The head gussets appear to be the same shape, the Bultaco frame that Stan posted has similar  gussets but of a slightly different shape.
The filled in swingarm pivot gussets looks like the only difference between the works cradle and CMS.
This may have been an early CMS trait that they dropped in later frames, but that is just a hypothetical.
From people of have had contact with over the years I have been told that CMS were around in 72 and that there were earlier frames than the one I copied. Apparently the early CZ-CMS frames had the flattened end swingarms like the early CZ’s.
It’s easy to scoff at comments as being hearsay but the only reason that I know that Elvis Presley is dead is because I read it in the papers. Should I not believe these stories too

[firko]

I've been having a very quick squiz through my magazine collection this morning looking for any reference to CMS prior to 1974 as I know they were around in the early 70's but as it stands I haven't yet found any evidence. I've got over 1000 magazines, all prior to 1980 and I've only looked through about 10 so I've a ways to go yet. I have found reference to Charley Cole being involved in 1970 so I'm closing in. I've also asked a few American friends if Charley is related to Jeff Cole from C&J....The jury's still out on that one.
I spoke to Ron Pomeroys wife earlier this morning and she told me that he was out on a job and to call back around 12.30pm (our time). I'll report back as soon after!

[JC]

I just read the 2 Melling articles side by side. The bike tested was Malcolm Davis's UK championship-winning bike that was essentially a pre-prod'n Mk7 in Mk6 colours.

The later one in the book (Big Leap, 79) has about 5 paragraphs missing, that statement re the wt of JPs GP bike changed, & an added section at the end, where he asks Davis to review what he said 5yrs earlier. My guess is that when Davis did so, he corected Melling's earlier mis-information.

Here's the relevant page from CI, 74:



And zoomed in so you can read it more easily:

It’s easy to scoff at comments as being hearsay but the only reason that I know that Elvis Presley is dead is because I read it in the papers

No, not "scoffing" Geoff. The only reason I believe JP won the spanish GP is that I read it in the mags. But I tho't we were trying to be fairly conclusive in solving this mystery, & evidence carries a whole lot more weight than claims/reports.

One of the reasons we believe the earth is not flat, apart from the scientific evidence reported, is we can watch a ship disappear behind the curvature of the earth as it sails out of the harbour. The evidence conclusively confirms the reports. (Apparently it took a lot of convincing back in the day!)

Its a bit like those who want to push the boundaries of whats legal in (say) pre75 VMX. Anybody can make a claim of what was around back then, but when someone turns up w a pic in a dated magazine, thats conclusive evidence. I tho't thats what we're after.

[JC]

From Jan 75 Trail & Track:



From, "Around the Shops" in Mar 75 T&T:

[JC]

   Begs the question were the 125's a different frame (maybe cro-mo)to the 250/325 ?

The 125s were said to have lighter guage tubing in the rear sub-frame.

VB 10001410 ENGINE AND FRAME.

Jerry, that may well be a late Mk6. (my engine # is 10000052) The MK6 125 pursang wasn't a big seller. I have seen Bul prod'n figures somewhere, but I don't think it was model by model, only total prod'n year by year. (74 & 75 were the biggest years by far IIRC)

Somewhere I've seen a circa 73 shot of Gary Bailey's &/or David Bailey's 250/125 pursang(s) which show it/them in MK6 livery but w Mk7 features like rear hub, telescos, chain-guide etc. I'm fairly sure it was a Goodyear ad, but where???

I have found reference to Charley Cole being involved in 1970

What was he doing then?  ie in that reference.

[JC]

It was Skip Kretz (not Krepps) who prepped JPs #12 74 TransAMA bike - out of Bay Area Bultaco. That West coast isn't it?

Perhaps he did the 73 GP bike too??
(Apologies for several posts in a row)

[GMC]

out of Bay Area Bultaco. That West coast isn't it?

Not sure, but don’t get the west coast Washington State (above California) confused with Washington DC which is east coast

[JC]

Yep, silly me; I just checked that, but you beat me to it. Washougal/Spokane is on the western side (tho JP still went to NY to arrange the trip).

More of the dots are lining up.

There is a Terry G Saxland (age 79yrs) listed in Seattle, WA. Could be JPs sponsor.

[firko]

I just had a great half hour conversation with Ron Pomeroy and it was like talking with Jim all over again. Like Jim he bounces from one subject to another in a haphazard way but is amazingly entertaining and informative. Unfortunately, Ron couldn't shed any further light on the subject, his take being that he thought that the bike had been a total stocker but that "he wouldn't be surprised if it was a CMS as we knew Charley".

He told me that there are only a couple of people left who would know the real answer. One was Jims French/Spanish mechanic, the other Arnie Beaman who took over after the Spanish GP. Ron passed along Arnie's email address and I've just sent him a rather lengthy email mapping out the evidence we've uncovered showing that the bike may have had an aftermarket frame and asking him some general questions about the bike. I've also asked if he may have any close up, static photos of the bike (to assist Jerry in his build).

All we can do now is to hope that Arnie can come up with a definitive answer.

[jerry]

Great work Firko. Thanks for that. Did you invite Ron over? Jerry

[firko]

Great work Firko. Thanks for that. Did you invite Ron over? Jerry

As a matter of fact I did invite Ron but he told me that the GFC has made things financially very tight, making it pretty hard to justify the expense or time away from his business. He reckons Jim never shut up about what a great place Australia is and how well he was treated......We liked him too.