OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: shortshift on July 14, 2009, 08:21:37 pm
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(I posted this topic on another forum that created a lot of interest and it was suggested by some that I post it here for the benefit of a larger audience of riders who may get a better understanding of what things are all about. I was not happy about that article that appeared in one of the recent VMX issues so I wanted to offer an alternate view to readers from a different perspective.............in this article below I also do not commercially represent any oil brands whatsoever and have no preference for a particular brand, but have had the benefit of working into the lubricants industry in a marketing & technical capacity for 23 years and ridden/worked on both on and offroad motorcycles for over 30 years )
"I wanted to wait till I got all my data on hand to sort out the issue relating to oil mix ratios with certain 2T oils on the market.
As Leith said that in many magazine tests from the early 80's testers ran the bikes on 50:1 with Bel-Ray (BR) MC-1.................now that is OK from a lubrication point of view with that grade as i will explain later, but not without risks.
But the public should have been informed why this is so.............and it is nothing really to do with any high tech advancement of the product by BR. Perhaps the company thought the motorcycle riding fraternity would not comprehend some figures (And when i look back at myself way back then and some of the people i rode with they may be right). Do they really look at us as just a bunch of illiterates?
Many riders were also running 100:1 in their bikes in MX and as of still today a famous Australian stunt rider who still rides early RM500's to my knowledge still uses MC-1 at 100:1 with success with no rebuilds for 10 years.
There doesnt seem to be much debate (not that i I know of or can see in any other forums) about an article written by a representative of Bel-Ray Oil Co in one of the latest VMX issues. It appears that again the reader has taken as gospel what has been written by a "marketing" person not a technical or engineering person who can explain to the reader why this is possible to run ratios around say 50:1. Even though the VMX article does not mention using ratios as lean as 100:1 I feel that much of what has been written is totally inaccurate and irrelavent for pre 90 VMX machinery and for a certain amount of time I was thinking on not renewing my subscription so upset I was that something like that could be published. And as a consequence of that article the reader may have leaned off his oil mixture much to the detriment of his bikes engine.
Happily I have since discussed and am continuing to have dialogue directly with VMX magazine over my alternative viewpoint about really one of the most talked about and debated issues in motorcycling perhaps equal with tyre choice, jetting and the like.
I wrote to BR is the USA in the form of an inquiry to ask about the specifications of their variuos 2T oils as "I was tuning some engines and wanted to scientifically calculate specific gravities (densities) of fuel mixes with variuos oil ratios"....................
A helpful response was sent to me overnight (copied below) including Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS's) that contain the figures that I asked for to help me explain what I needed. And sure enough as soon as I opened up the MSDS's it hit me right away and the cover of all the hype & BS over the years that BR has been dishing out was exposed.
Superb products.......all of them.......absolutely!!.............up there with the best...............but how nice it would have been if BR described their rationale to riders 30 years ago when their product was launched why their product was suitable at 100:1. Today it has realistically been recommended to run 50:1.
The reason as a marketer and engineer in this industry I can tell you, was too make the market believe that BR has miraculously bought into some extraterrestial technology that no one else has managed to come across. And it worked for them in selling millions of gallons of the stuff over the last 3 decades.
There is no big secret..............it is all in plain black and white on the MSDS's................MC-1 has a viscosity of 235 Centistokes (Cst) @ 40c (100F) which equates to about an SAE50 or gear oil SAE90 thickness. On the other hand their other synthetic products are less than a quarter (a fifth or 20% of the thickness) of MC-1.........between 40-50 Cst @ 40c (SAE10W-20 or gear oil of SAE 80W).
As an illustration, I used to use Castrol Biolube 100 in my performance outboards at 100:1 and they ran OK, noisy compared to 30:1 (due to less oil cushioning metal parts) which I run now and HP is way up including throttle response (due to better sealing and compression), but they didnt blow up as Biolube is about the same viscosity as MC-1 so a thick film of oil was present.
People who follow manufacturers recommendations (Which are another marketing ploy to offer false savings in running costs and to pander to environmentalists) and run normal prediluted TCW-3 oils at those lean ratios would definatley reduce the life of their motors and not achieve the full HP rating of what they purchased.
The plain jane mineral oil (S2) is about 100Cst in the MSDS which is normal as being mineral you need a heavier base fluid with some bright stock, or some heavy esters in its place at around 25%, to create film thickness for lubricating your engine. You get what you pay for in some cases.
So the simple science behind this is when you cut back (dilute) a heavy oil such as MC-1 (ie: like thinning down a thick grease) with fuel to make your premix of course it is going to lubricate your engine well at 100:1 without seizing it as the end viscosity of the oil in the fuel mix is still thick enough to form a film of oil on the parts........and it wont change the density of the fuel mix affecting your jetting requirements too much, however there will still be MORE fuel in the mix requiring a leaning of your mixture but NOT due to a change in density (or net fuel viscosity) that affects the passage of fuel through the jets in a given time...............where if you dilute their Si-7 oil which has been made with lighter Esters of between 40-50 Cst at 100:1............well bye bye engine..............little or no film thickness there at that ratio and hello engine rebuild and track side seizure.
Even BR themselves as you can see below in their statement to me now recommend not to use MC-1 at ratios leaner than 50:1 which surprised me as I remember all the hooha in the 80's about 100:1 and MC-1. HALF of what they promoted in the past. Too many eggheads seizing their bikes.
In the Suzuki PE owners manual it lists oils such as Castrol R40 which is 150Cst @40c (an SAE 40, SAE 85W gear oil viscosity to assist the layman reading this to comprehend what i am explaining, hopefully) mixed at 20:1 which when you examine things closer would provide very good lubication in the engine of a relatively thick oil at rich ratios. Hence this can explain the very good power figures when the tester held the throttle wide open and measured HP in that famous Oil ratio article by Gordon Jennings in Feb 1978 that found more oil is better.
But R40 being a castor oil at 20:1 was also found to produce high deposits but for race engines it was immaterial as the motor was stripped often, and also ridden flat out preventing much of these deposits from occuring in the first place. Perhaps R40 at 20:1 was overkill to some extent for the average trailrider who would have expereinced plug fowling, ring sticking and exhaust deposits.
So to summarise the mechanics of what this means............be careful what you buy and what ratio you mix it in.................for example MC-1at 20:1 would be great if you rode fairly hard all the time like wide open throttle desert racing but at slower woods type, or frequent slow to fast and slow again riding you would potentially oil everything up as the thick base oil would coat plugs and well up inside your chamber as it wouldnt flow or atomise adequately, you would have to really mix the fuel well and not keep it for long. It would make the bike hard to start as you would be oiling plugs frequently, and it would separate quicker in the tank/float bowl when left sitting.
But the oil that i use which is 45CSt at 20:1 runs perfect at all speeds, and runs through the engine does its job and then goes out without hanging up in the exhaust or combustion chamber so that the engine can perform like a 2 stroke.
I think Motul 800, Castrol A747 are thick esters as well (See subsequent article that follows)...........and I have written before which is overkill at rich ratios for engines under 9,000RPM.
Perhaps some of the plug fowling I hear at Vinduro's is caused by improper jetting combined with these thick 2T oils at too rich mixtures.............something else I need to ask the riders. I talk to many riders and they tell what ratios they are running like 40-50:1 in their old bikes and then they complain about worn and seized crank pins, big ends and short ring life, detonation partially caused by overheating the engine from not enough oil in their fuel. More oil keeps your engine cleaner with less deposits as it acts as detergent/dispersant to constantly prevent deposits from adhering to your parts.
So riders out there mixing their light viscosity 2T oils (which are 95% of the oils sold such as Castrol TTS, Shell VSX2, Motul 710, Motrex etc) at lean ratios (>32:1) are shaving heaps of metal from their motors, creating blowby and further wear & deposits and loosing performance.
Is there any benefit in playing Russian Roulette with 100:1 even though the oil "may" be technically suitable. In my view "NO" one reason because you are adding what 200ml (about 7 Ounces for any USA readers) of oil into 20litres (5.28 USG) and the margin for error is too great unless you are using almost laboratory accuracy to combine and mix components. The heavier oil will also mix more slowly and in cold weather may either fall out of suspension or lead to oil starvation when starting as it may cling to cold crankcase surfaces and not enter the bearings and cylnder walls.
There is too high a risk that slugs of your fuel mix will have no oil in it, and to have heavier but fewer fractions of lube oil in your mix makes it too unpredicatable and unreliable in my books.
I look at some of the factory teams in MX over here who ran MC-1 at 100:1 in the late 70's and 80's. They had a team of mechanics who meticulously measured each componant and mixed it all thoroughly for a very long time to ensure the oil was dispersed throughout the mix. What proportion of trailriders/VMX'ers do that?
Does MC-1 lubricate and protect your engine at 40 or 50:1 better than say Castrol TTS at 20:1, I really doubt it, and there is really no advantage in going down that path.
You look at the PE greats like the Geoff Udys and Brian White (In Australia and I am sure the Americans could name riders from their own shores) who ran MC-1 @ 40:1 or less in their PE's and got away with it............do you think these great riders completely understood why it was working for them? I dont think so!! They would have believed that BR was a superior company in itself and sold a magical product. As is the case with most magic it was simply an illusion.
The "trendiness" and "coolness" factor in these lean ratios amongst a major group of riders is really just that, a fantasy fed by ones ego (and the greater dirtbike scene is overflowing with that.........no lean ratios of that there) that is being chased, created by some clever formulation chemists in conjunction with marketers over 3 decades ago when Polyol-Esters & PAO's began to take hold in the market. These fantasies have perhaps led to the reliability problems experienced by riders, not just in the pre-85 scene. And recent articles that have been written will only maintain this trend.
From my understanding there is very little benefit to your motors in running leaner oil ratios, especially with the lighter grade oils that most of us use. At 40:1 ratios (Even 32:1) riders are really deluding themselves and trying to either save some money or follow some trend that will only lead to shorter engine life while still thinking that everything is OK.
This is but a brief introduction to help offer an alternative viewpoint to a much discussed and to date people are potentially as misinformed and unable to make rationale oil ratio decisions as they have been,
So my advice is run around 25:1 -20:1 in your old aircooled mills (and many WC ones), jet your carb right to suit and then ride with a clear consciuos that enough oil is inside your engine................
Thanks for writing in.
The viscosity of the Bel-Ray 2-Cycle oils are contained in section 9 of each of the MSDS sheets for the products. I have attached the AU – MSDS sheets for the following Bel-Ray Performance Products;
Bel-Ray SL2 Semi-Synthetic 2 Stroke Oil
Bel-Ray Bio-Bel H1R
Bel-Ray H1R Synthetic 2-Stroke Racing Oil
Bel-Ray S2 2-Stroke Oil
Bel-Ray Si-7 Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil
Bel-Ray MC-1 2-Cycle Synthetic Racing Oil. NOTE: do not mix any heavier than 50:1.
Check out our website at www.belray.com. We have added a new feature, Bel-Ray Powersports Lubricant Advisor that will tell you the correct Bel-Ray lubricants for your specific make and model based on the OEM recommendations.
Thanks for using Bel-Ray Performance Products
Regards,
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what a great read!
margin for error is too great unless you are using almost laboratory accuracy to combine and mix components.
That is a very good point. im sure theres many people who think they are using a particular ratio but are a little hasty with their measuring and are not getting th exact ratio they think they are.
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The bit your missing is the shear strength of oils, synthetic and mineral oils show up very well in tests(Fallex and pin block) whereas Castor based oils perform poorly in the test. However under operating conditions, mineral oils loose shear strength first then synthetics, at the point the the synthetics fail the castor oil BEGINS to work.
Even (cough cough) 4 stroke engines with R30 and R40 in the sump have proven to last a 4 full laps of the IOM when ANY other oils have gearbox failures after 2 laps.That was back in the day and today.
Today's castor synthetics like A747 used in what ever ratio is as good as it can get.No matter the rpm or riding conditions.
A wise US based tuner/engineer told me on the "what oil ratio should I run" question he gets asked everytime a customer pays his bill, to which he replies "When I see something new in oils then I'll change my oil ratio, untill then I'll stick to 20:1"
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Lozza,
A brief article to help shed some more light on this subject and it impossible to write about far too many things that would go right over everyones head, perhaps except yours..........like how many of the forum readers understand the ASTM Falex and 4 Ball (PIN) wear test??................castor oil (based on the Castor bean) has tremendous film strength and is a great product to use if you are willing to dismantle your engine after every meet (Ok not everyone does that who run castor oil)........it leaves black sticky deposits over time throughout the crankcase, intake tracts and carbons up the expansion chamber and clogs the perforated holes in the silencer.
It was the oil of choice by many MXer's of the past with leaded Avgas 100/130 racing fuel, a great combination for maximum horsepower output where the engines were pulled apart and cleaned after every race meet.
It also has the disadvantage of absorbing water so the fuel needs to be drained and thrown out of the carb and tank.............and it smells great! By far today its greatest use is with Methanol powered machines due to its insolubility with the alcohol fuel.
We have run A747 (Amongst other oils like R30) in Yamaha 100c and Rotax powered go-karts for years at 16 or 18:1 with great reliability.
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I've run castor and castor synthetic in 100-400cc engines and have never found of these stick black deposits, nor has there ever been the need to pull the engine down after running for any length of time. All that is indicating some ineffincies in the engine.
My reference to the tests was simply that to state that castor performs poorly in tests but outperforms any other oil in the engine.EVERY GP 125/250 runs a castor/synthetic oil.
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i,m sticking with castrol R,because it smells great and reminds me of the late 70's standing in the pomie winter smelling the smoke as the pro riders fly past. I run 25:1 in a Rm 125D.
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That was a good read.
What about how the VMX article mentions that big bores like 500s need less oil. Is that why the stunt rider with the RM500 could get away with MC-1 at 100:1??
After reading your explanation of it all im happy to keep running Castrol TTS at 25:1 in my PE175.
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Just a quick quary. In a modern 4T to get that r30 smell & help valve lube what would you run & ratio.
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In the old DR500 i put 1/2 cap of oil to 10 lt,it helps the valves AND smells good!!
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What about how the VMX article mentions that big bores like 500s need less oil. Is that why the stunt rider with the RM500 could get away with MC-1 at 100:1??
Yes. There's a basic rule that says "more revs needs more oil in the fuel".
I've heard (unconfirmed) figures of the oil ratios that the 2-stroke road race GP bikes ran - the 80s were close to single digits, while the 500s were relatively lean (still very rich by most standards).
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About big bores (>400cc), and this was one of the several contentuos issues I had with that article, I have read the opposite for example in a Maico article (I will try to dig it out) that said due to the heavy loads on the bearings in the big/small ends and on the thrust faces of the cylinder it was recommended to use 25:1 at least or more like 20:1. This was decided after careful study of wear and failure of these parts by Maico and Wheelsmith Motorcycles in the USA.
The other camp argues that you need less oil in a big bore due to the engines revving less. I dont buy into that as higher HP is produced and from this higher temperatures and bearing loads. In an aircooled engine they run hot esp in an enduro negotiating steep rutted hills at walking pace (I speak from experience with my 400) and 20:1 keeps these engines from seizing.
A stunt motorcycle rider does perhaps 500 metres per act, performs his jump over a series of parked cars or buses, does a few laps of the showground to wave to the crowd then shuts off his engine. The bike is not under any heavy sustained loads, does not get all that hot, hardly gets warm so with such short runs that is perhaps why it is possible to get away with not much oil in the mix. In a 500cc MX race then the loads are greater and variable all the time, so are the temperatures and much more oil is needed.
What is really an oils function? It is not just to lubricate/cushion the spaces between moving parts but to cool them as well.
I have written elsewhere in explaining to others that in small bore engines (<200cc) or other high RPM applications the oil acts more like a coolant due to the high heat from combustion produced where its function as a lubricate diminishes as the piston is moving so fast in the cylinder that the oils job is too cool the sliding surfaces, replenished rapidly at these RPM's by new fuel going through the engine taking this heat out through the exhaust, so that oils secondary function in this particular case is to lubricate.
So any riders who have 125, 175, 200cc 2 stroke bikes that require to be ridden pretty much flat out all the time in the top end it is best to run 20-25:1 to ensure there is enough oil there to perform these functions.
Another important point to consider when changing either your oil ratio or oil brand/type/viscosity is that in a 2 stroke engine it takes around 20-30 minutes of fairly hard riding to evacuate the old oil from your crankcases to allow the new oil to take over. So just because you dump 20:1 into your tank you need to wait for this period of time to expereince the benefits of the change. And of course if you have been running the heavier types of oils that i have discussed it may take a little longer for this changeover.
So in summary 20-25:1 is optimum across all engine sizes for different reasons in our Vintage machines.
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agree with all that oil is the coolant.
I have never tried or really want to try those motul and synthetic brands. I have always used tts, elf or even recently shitty old shell mineral oils at average 25:1, and same but 32:1 ratio's in in my Late model Ktm exc and Yz250's, nothing ever missed a beat.
I could just never see how oil can get better than oil, and i know for sure my old steel liner bikes dont need polishers, guazes and what ever else additives go in that syth stuff, all it wants is that dirty old oil out the ground and in the right amounts. I use 2 measureing agricultual chemical jugs ( 500ml and a 5 lt plastic jugs) and have fiiled this set for over 15 years to exaclty the same lines then stirred with a rod. Nothing else ( well except that time i ran the elf oxigenator before the govt banned it cause of thalidimied).
My only concern ATM is the current petrol even at 98 RON its just not working the same way. I find unless i run a blend with Avgas (assuming it still has some lead in it) i dont get the same coolling in the motor, and last lap HP, and also rings dont seem to last as long.
Personally im thinking the move to unleaded has done more harm to 2 strokes than any other thing, being over 32:1 on oil is just foolish any way, so im saying lead in a 20-25 mix was the Go, but im no longer sure that oil and fuels match anymore, its all gone a bit out of whack..........
im interested in what the best mix and match of gas is, whats the best blend of both on the market today for the old air pots ? and can you suspend lead back into Unleaded fuel and i dont care if i have to cut up pencil to do it ;D
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I think the reason some people have trouble running with ratios areound 20 to 1 is because of problems elsewhere like carby jetting, spark plug type and heat range and unseen issues with ignitions such as weak spark. Its Not uncommon for many bikes 25 yrs or older to be suffering from weak ignitions due to weak flywheel magnets that have lost their magnetism or crook primary coils. Over the past few years i have traced a number of ignition/power faults to weak magnets in the flywheel/rotor and have even done various experiments on testing magnet strength to proove this by comparing the strength of the suspect magents to magnets in a new flywheel/rotor. With a weak ignition this can cause problems with runnng.
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how do you remagnatiZe an old rotor ?
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Interesting note on the Maico 500's, I've had 3 83/84 500's and the manual states you can run up to 100:1 using a certain synthetic oil (can't remember the brand)
I've always run 50:1 motul 800 but recently switched to castrol r 30, only because it's about $10 a liter cheaper. Found it runs far less smoke and "gloop" from exhaust, but as mentioned before, carbon deposits are noticably up. Love the smell, but the orange stains on the white tank shit me.
One thing not mentioned is thoughts on the life of pre mixed fuel, does the oil lose it's lube capabilities before fuel goes stale?
Good post shortshift
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I havent personally remagnetised flywheels myself it but i know a guy whos into old stationary engines who has done it for me and it it did work. I know you need a high current power suppliy and you gotta suss out the correct polarity of the magnets. If you dont do that you can end up reversing the polarity and thats not good. There should be info on the web somewhere about how to do it.
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i got a Dt rotor on a bike thats not runing, that i was told has lost its magnatism, well wondered if it could be done so it can be eleimated as suspect
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Freakshow, I dont recommend you put any lead in the fuel :-) ........Tetra Ethyl lead (TEL) was the additive that was put into Leaded fuels and the only leaded fuel now available is Avgas100/130 (800PPM of Pb......Shell Avgas LL has about 200PPM) from your local aerodrome that you need to sign a book when you buy it.
Now there was nothing wrong with lead in fuel. The lead that was contained in the fuel dropped out of the atmosphere and was laid to rest near the roadside due to its weight, it did not float off even in high winds and pollute school children with lead poisoning as many aroused activists lobbied the Government about.
Avgas 100/130 made your engine run hard and cool as well without overheating. But the high lead amount would have shortened engine life. Run 91 ULP in a moto and see what I mean after running Avgas, it will be like a different bike, poor throttle response and way down of power & torque.
The switch to ULP was a large con where the oil companies spent billions to covert their production facilities and service stations in tankage to cater for this scam.
It was the best form of octane improver available, but the lead salts did chew out spark plug electrodes far quicker, rot out exhausts faster and cause rust in engines that laid idle (Stuck exhaust valves was a common result).
I would recommened you contact a specialist fuel supplier (Scotchers Race Fuel and oils in Wakefield Park is a starting point) for some quality ULP racing fuel 100+ in pails and these fuels are more expensive but contain additives that are far better than the old TEL and you can feel some real power when mixing them with really any oil.........let me say that my own trials of higher octane fuels in 2 stroke bikes is that the higher octane the more torque the bike produced. I could keep it in a higher gear before downchanging. With 102 fuel it was like riding an automatic, just left it in 3rd and pulled cleanly from low revs like a 4 stroke.
Also with more oil at say 20:1 the bike enjoys more compression from better sealing of the rings, longer ring life from both more oil and less blowby staining the piston skirt, and more immediate throttle response. This better sealing is very important in a 2 stroke as it utilises a very short part of its stroke timing to create compression. I am trying to find an article I had about some CZ owners who solved their tuning issues by simply running 20:1 from 40:1 and will post it when I do. Remember that 40:1 is HALF the amount of oil of 20:1.
Castrol TTS that you mention is a 100% synthetic ester that is just briliant, so you are already using a synthetic.
98 Octane pump gas is a compromise, contains lots of light ends (aromatics like Methyl Benzene akin to paint thinners as an octane booster that is a worse carcinogen than lead) and varies from batch to batch, and cannot be stored for long periods as the light ends evaporate even through your plastic tanks. Buy your fuel from outlets in areas where there are many prestige cars so the fuel gets turned over more often.
EVO550, with storage of fuels or more correctly their shelf life, Castor oil mixes have the shortest of shelf life as the castor oil is less soluble in Gasoline fuels, so it will drop out and separate over time, sometimes as quick as a few days, so mix it on the day really well and as much as you think you may need. Keep your fuel dry as Castor oil (Brake Fluid is predominantly made of the same stuff) is hygroscopic (absorbs water) and water obviuosly destroys the capabilities of your fuel to burn. I love the smell of burnt castor oil too but just be aware of the requirements for its handling and mixing. It will also give you the runs if you breath too much of it in.
Back in 82/83 MC-1 would have been the product in your book but that has been revised as stated in my opening post both by the oil & bike manufacturer.. ......Would you today run such a small amount of oil in your Maico and feel secure when opening her up??? I have found more oil quietens the bikes up mechanically......less rattley!. Perhaps try 32:1 of R30 next time, or even 25:1 and perhaps get to know a different bike. You may need to enrichen the position of your needle (raise it) and increase your main jet.
I would also trial Motul 710 at about 25-32:1 for the reasons at the very top and check performance.
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My info is that lead itself wasnt put in the fuel to increase the octane rating. It came about after the war and the technolgy developed from the aviation industry and was passed down to cars/bikes. the lead allowed engine builders to build higher performance motors and get more power out of them. As a side effect people found they had to do less valve grinds back when heads were cast alloy with the valves running straight into the cast alloy. The lead provided a cusioning effect on the valve seats. Then alloy heads came in which had hardened steel inserts and improved combustion chamber design and compression ratios were increased as the high octane lead fuel allowed this.
Now quite often i read about or hear from customers asking about unleaded conversions on their 60's/70's/80's bikes and that they have been told by others that they need 'conversion to unleaded fuel' and need hardened valve seats, which is also one of the biggest cons out there aswell and people i know are getting ripped off with getting so called 'hardened valve seats' in their alloy heads which already have hardened steel valve seats. Also those things you put in fuel tanks which also put tin deposits in the fuel is another money making scam. these scams have been validated by various fuel chemists. Yes you will get a tiny bit more wear on the valve seats with unleaded fuel but its like only 5% its very little and you really have to be riding mega miles to see this wear and in which case the whole motor would be due for a rebuild, new valves & seats or a regrind anyway.
To convert to unleaded on 4 strokes all i do is advise the customer to use premium unleaded or higher octane fuel and then i make adjustments to the carb and plug heat range to allow better better combustion at lower temperatures and then plug sooting is eliminated.
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My info is that lead itself wasnt put in the fuel to increase the octane rating. It came about after the war and the technolgy developed from the aviation industry and was passed down to cars/bikes. the lead allowed engine builders to build higher performance motors and get more power out of them.
As best as I can tell, the lead was a knock suppressant which effectively raises the octane rating - but its kind of a 'cheater' way of doing it. Its sort of like taking the cooling fan off your car's engine and then recording a higher power figure - yes it has a higher figure, but you haven't really made the engine produce more power either.
If you put the lead into any of the modern 'premium' ULP fuels, you'd end up with an even higher octane rating. For the relatively brief period when you could buy both, it was a known trick to mix Super and PULP together to get an extra degree of knock resistance.
Octane rating is one of the all-time smoke and mirrors acts. Basically, if your engine doen't need the extra octane, then using a higher octane rated fuel does nothing but help empty your pockets.
Obviously, if its knocking away, then extra octane is a good thing.
Similarly, if you've got an engine with good knock-sensing EFI, then the EFI can tune the engine to make the most of the extra octane (actually that example is a bit arse-about - in reality, you only get the benefits if the engine/EFI is tuned to run on PULP - if you're running on ordinary 91 octane dishwater, then it will pull back the ignition timing, and increase the fuel to ensure the engine doesn't knock).
Back in the old days, manufacturers found that they could build engines with higher compression ratios and more ignition timing if the buying public had access to better (more knock resistant) fuels. So adding lead to petrol did mean that we could make more power - just that it happened indirectly.
The real reason for taking lead out of petrol is because lead kills catalytic converters, and catalytic converters are an easy way to keep exhaust emissions low (esp in the USA in the 1970s before EFI was worth pissing on).
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If I can use an example to illustrate a point made by someone else on this forum, when I rebuilt one of my VMX bikes the previuos owner ran 40:1 (after I quizzed him on what he has done to the bike since he got it) and when he told me this my heart sank as the manufacturers recommendations was for 20:1. His rationale was that, "we use modern oils so we can cut back the amount of oil we use...20:1 is old fashioned". In all his good intentions with the logic he employed it was not in the best interests of the machine. Totally inaccurate information he has been given or heard from someone, as I will explain a little later.
Some background data first: When I got the bike it had still 40:1 in the tank with Motul 800 as the previuos owner ran. I went over the bike and part of my preliminary inspections was to pull the cylinder to examine the internals. I was dissapointed as soon as I lifted that barrel off and saw the scuffed, scratched and burnt brown piston skirt, and equally worn cylinder and most importantly there was hardly any oil on the surface of the piston. I assembled everything again and ran the bike for 3 months at variuos events and trailriding until i pulled everything apart for a rebore over Christmas.
I use a top 2 stroke tuner for all my work, Ian Tate from TRE Race engines, and I bought a .25mm oversize for it and Ian called me back and said that 0.25mm doesnt clean up, so i went to exchange the piston for a 0.5mm oversize that cleaned up fine. Upon discussion with Ian the engine has suffered from overheating & wear due to not enough oil. (The bike was also running too lean in the midrange when I bought it, reed flutter etc, and have since solved this by raising the needle to highest position)
The overheating showed in the area of cylinder where the exhaust port is that was elongated outwards from the top of the cylinder to the very bottom hence that area when i called into the shop did not clean up. This explained the massive blowby and loss of compression.
The bike also detonated quite badly when i first got it. Anyway before the rebuild i simply put the bike together and ran 20:1 and ran OK but was down on power due to the wear. When I took apart the cylinder to send it away to get rebored the oil this time just oozed off down the piston skirt in comparison. I was happy that the engine was adequately lubricated. It had as much oil there like any splash lubricated 4 stroke engines..........this dispels the myth that 2 strokes dont/cant get enough oil.
To now explain the previuos owners rationale that modern oils can be run at leaner ratios let me use this analogy. You are about to service your car's engine, it has say a 20W/50 mineral grade previuosly (eg: Castrol GTX) and you want to use a synthetic oil in the next oil change (eg:Castrol Edge 5W/40). Ok if we use the standard current popular 2 stroke philosophy instead of pouring in the normal 5 litres of oil into the sump we only put 2.5 litres, "because the oil is now synthetic and we can use HALF the amount to oil to do the same job!" It is like a riders logic in going from 20:1 to 40:1.
Crazy logic that does not work and will only lead to oil starvation, over-heating (oil is used as a heat exchange medium to carry away heat from moving parts), deposits (I will post Gordon Jennings article soon) and in the case of a 4 stroke rapid oil degradation and wear. Would you put half a litre of synthetic oil into your KTM 450EXF instead of 1 litre of mineral grade? The only difference in a 2 stroke is the oil doesnt sit around for a 1,000 KM circulating around the engine, it gets spat out after a few moments, or seconds at high speed. A 2 stroke engine is described as a "total loss lubrication" system.
So in a 2 stroke you need to maintain "Film Thickness", synthetics in some industrial or other automotive applications like gearboxes, bearings and air/gas compressors can get away with less or thinner oils that are synthetic due to their better lubricating qualities (as Lozza rightly refers to the term "shear strength" that refers to an oils ability to maintain a film under an opposing load, ie: the conrod belting down on the big end bearing in a 490 Maico/KTM 495) and adherance to metals in near boundary lubrication situations...........but in cylinder lubrication in an internal combustion 2 stroke engine where high loads, high heat, aggressive combustion by products that need to be collected and neutralised and massive destructive loads on the big and small ends occur.........then you need to maintain this film thickness and by going to a synthetic does not mean that you necessary use less. Inside an air compressor cylinder we can wind down the rate of oil feed of a synthetic oil as we do not have the horrendous conditions I describe above. A synthetic oil @ 20:1 will do a better job of cooling, cleaning, preventing wear & lubricating than a mineral oil at 20:1, but you dont necessarily use less.
In a 2 stroke cylinder we also have the challenge of those sharp irregular ports that serve only to grind and strip metal off the piston and rings if not enough oil is present. This is why you need more oil to lubricate the sharp connecting surfaces in those regions where the ports are. They act as cutting blades like a wood plane thousands of time a minute.
Using less of the expensive oil you have purchased to perhaps make you feel better in removing some of the pain is totally false economy and will cost you much more down the track in parts and labour when it comes time to rebuild your machine prematurely. And in our case with VMX bikes you may never be able to obtain the parts again, so by using more oil in the first place it preserves your pride and joy so you use it longer.
A 2 stroke engine doesnt have an oil filter to filter its oil by virtue of its design and operation. Hence you need more oil in your premix to work as a flushing agent to wash out constantly the build up and production of deposits. The oil does the same job as a filter in a 4 stroke to remove these harmful deposits inside your engine that are being made with every firing of your sparkplug and that is twice as much as a 4 stroke engine. So more oil like 20-25:1 is the go than 40:-50:1. Less oil creates more deposits. A 2 stroke engine also does not come with the luxury of an oil cooler like some air and water cooled 4 stroke motorcycle engines do as part of its design. So more oil is needed to perform this function to carry away heat build up. (See my post on why 2 stroke engines less than 200cc need more oil as a coolant).
Since my rebuild in one particular bike in October 2007 I have pulled the engine's top end to assess wear patterns a few times till recently, and to re-chamfer the port edges, and the piston after many hours of riding on 20:1 is still burnt stain free (no blowby) clean as the day i put it in, bore still perfectly round after running the dial indicator through it, expansion chamber and piston top hospital clean. The packing in my silencer is still dry and unclogged with "Goop" as Evo550 calls it, I refer to it as "Spooge"............as when i got the bike it was glogged (Lighter 2T oils @ 20:1 dont clog up the packing as do heavier grades @ 50:1) Yes it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to see that.
Below is an interesting extract from the Vinduro.com website that I retained from some characters that illustrates the "No Brainer" philosophy of using more oil:
"I'm a complete noob about tuning a two stroke but I can relate my
experience about my CZ 380. I was running about 50 to one mixture and
was having the problem of loading up and having to drain the crankcase
of excess mixture. Cousin Weedy-Joey Poole was parked next to me at
Diamond Don's a few years ago and let me use his mixture that was 20
to one. My CZ had never run better since it was new on his mixture. I
think it was probably related more to carb jetting than anything else.
The higher mixture ratio (50-1) being too much gas to run properly. I
have a 36mm Keihin on my CZ......tm"
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Hi Shortshift,
Great post.
The best I have read for some time.
I was told to run 40:1 747 in my Maico MC250 1977 after it was rebuilt.
To run it in I mixed 30:1 747, but oil was pouring out of my exhaust pipe so the next ride I mixed 40:1.
The bike ran fine and there was no oil flowing out of the pipe.
Until I read these postings I thought everything was fine.
The reason I had oil flowing out of my pipe was because of the thickness of the 747. Diluting it with more fuel helped one problem but caused another by the sounds of it. When the engine was rebuilt two months ago I did notice that there was a little blow by which can be explained by your findings. I also found that my engine suffered a very small amount of detonation at the very top end of the revs. After speaking to a very experienced Maico rider that also uses 747 at 40:1 he told me that after every ride you have to ditch all the pre mixed fuel or detonation would occur. This was believed to be due to the fuels loss of octane over time but now I see that it could have been due to over heating, oil separation or water absorption.
Can you please tell me what fuel, oil and mix you run in your CZ ?
Keep up the good work
Ji
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For Lozza and other 2 stroke riders who use Castrol R and other Castor based oils I would suggest you read this for some handy hints especially on page's 4&5 for 2 strokes on getting the best out of your castor based premixes.
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/r/R30_40_M_B861.pdf
Ji,
This is an extract out of the A747 Product Data Sheet, "For some competition applications, particularly for very high engine speeds (typically greater than 15,000 RPM), Castrol A747 is the prime recommendation (see the Product & Technical Data SheetB1109/95/1).
.............Now, when was the last time your Maico reached or exceeded these RPM?? It would turn into a West German stick grenade on two wheels.
Heavy oils need HIGH RPM (and resultant extreme air flow & turbulence) to be pushed through the mechanical componants of an engine, and you need this extra viscosity for them to stay inside the crankcases long enough to do their task of lubing the bearings down under. At your engine speeds they will only STEAL power and lead to "Oil Hangup" (a real term in lubrication not something I have come up with) in your exhaust system frustrating you. We see this same phenomena as an example in industrial refrigeration compressors when the client puts in heavy oil against my advice to compensate for wear and take up clearances (Doesnt want to spend the $ on a rebuild) and then his electricity bill and maintenance costs skyrocket from oil drag and lubricant hangup throughout the system. Then he blames me that my oil is no good!
The Universal law of spending money is that the more money you spend on something the better it will be and perform. Not so with many things and especially so with 2 stroke oils.
Ji, the builder of your engine would have thought that to protect his rebuild then the costs of protection will be passed onto his customer for the life of the bike, you and your wallet...........and one way of getting around this was with expensive oils as an insurance policy to reduce any warranty exposure.
These oils are expensive not because they deliver better performance for your Maico but because of small (read : uneconomical pain in the A$$) blend sizes at the lube plant, and also base oil & additive costs purchased in uneconomical volumes including sometimes most singnificantly sponsorship costs of race teams etc that add about 50% to the price of the product. This is true with tyres and other parts where a large proportion of the production is given away free to racers and the humble riders like us pays the costs for this policy.
In your case you are using a too heavy oil for your application that is not atomising properly into fine enough molecules................. read the bottle, "Not to be used in conditions under Zero Celcius".........that is enough to tell you that you are loosing heaps of performance by using this product from what I can determine in 2 areas.
Detonation can be caused by some 4-5 factors (not limited to Ignition timing, preigintion by hotspots/carbon, fuel octane, overheating, lean jetting, incorrect fuel mixture/contamination etc) but one possible cause in your particular case is that the heavy oil at the low to moderate RPM you are running at is creating a moment (nanosecond) during the ignition cycle where the air fuel mixture contains globules/molecules/particles/droplets whatever of oil that quenches the flame front, prevents full and efficient fuel burning in the time allowed (~34 degrees of crank rotation) leading to detonation. It is why these heavy oils are for small engine HIGH RPM use only, Go Karts, road racers around 15,000RPM. The bike shops generally dont really care what you buy as long as a sale has been made and the average guy at the counter would have zero product and more importantly application knowledge for a 2 stroke that their shop perhaps havent sold in 15 years. That scares me as the buying decision is left to the punter with the bike!!
It is EXACTLY like when you have misfuelled your car with Diesel Ji as diesel has a heavier viscosity and density and also a higher flash point. What is happening inside your Maico is also like when you have a worn engine in your car and you have engine oil going into the combsution chamber past the rings or valve guides increasing the compression ratio causing detonation. I would like to add here that the local Volvo car dealer swears on 2 litres of diesel in a tank of petrol as a very good injector cleaner. In fact injector cleaners use diesel/heating oil as the carrier for its additves.
Also synthetic 2T oil is a very good injector cleaner for diesel engines (like 300ml per 75litre tank full in your 4WD when filling up) and I have a website that discusses that if anyone is interested. Perhaps a good home for any spare oil that riders may have when changing their type of oil.
So when you have A747 ,as in your case, you have two ingredients in the air fuel mixture when the plug goes off that have different flash points fighting with each other and the higher flash point hi-vis product overwhelmes the fuel component (that makes the power) like a fire extinguisher......it is like spraying foam over an oil fire.............great loss of performance.
Another area that is of concern in a 2 stroke engine that run these heavy oils is the phenomena of "Puddling". As in mud puddles you see on the track. Low speeds/RPM's and/or heavy 2T oils create puddling in the bottoms of your crank cases where the low speeds cannot move the oil through high air speed of the descending piston and centifugal forces from the flywheel towards the cylinder and up through the intake tracts. This is what is also happening in your bike. It is not just oil in the "puddle" but a large % of fuel as well.
Regardless of what oil you use you will get puddling for example if you left your bike idling for hours on end, but heavy oils exacerbate that.
Outboard manufacturers have solved this issue by drilling a hole at the base of the crankcase and fitting a one way valve to drain out this oil and redirect it towards the bearings. Understand that an outboard engine has a vertically placed crankshaft and with multiple cylinders as in a V6 there is a lot of oil buildup at the bottom crankshaft outlet. This happens when trolling slowly and when you open the throttle on the older engines without this drain valve the engine creates a cloud of smoke, runs rough, fowls your plugs and upsets the greenies birdwatching along the shoreline who then ring their Member of Parliament.
KTM are looking at direct oil injection (as well as direct fuel injection into the cylinder) for future 2 stroke models where you will have a system similar to VRO on outboards (Variable Ratio Oiling) where according to the RPM and load on the engine an exact amount of oil the computer (ECU) tells it to will be injected to the bearings. I think it would be an advanced system like the old Suzuki CCI method. At idle you may have 150:1 and at wide open throttle or at redline 32:1 or something like that. This will reduce emissions and make them more greenie friendly in the Government.
By the addition of more fuel into your mix, will, as you have found fixes one thing and brings on a new issue. The solution in your case if you are a Castrol fan is to use Castrol Power TTS that is the correct viscosity at 25:1 as base line, if this works well for you then try 20:1 with this oil. Similarly for users of MC-1 try a switch to Bel-Ray H1R Synthetic 2-Stroke Racing Oil or Bel-Ray Si-7 Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil and Motul fans who are using 800 try a batch of 710 at richer ratios.
You will find these oils will remain in the exhaust gas stream more to be expelled out into the atmosphere (horrible thing to write if a greenie from the EPA is reading this!) rather than condensing, dropping out of the gas stream and adhering to the internal surfaces of your exhaust system perhaps pooling at the lowest part of your exapansion chamber where it bends up again. Your packing may last longer too.
Ji, I would share this knowledge with all your other "experts" that you have spoken to AFTER you have tried my above advice first to make sure it works for you. It should solve many of the issues that you experienced.
I dont own a CZ but I know several others that do and and being the crafty, passionate and meticulous enthusiasts that they are, they run 20-25:1.
Below is the link to the legendary Gordon Jennings article about 2 stroke oil premix ratios written in 1978,
http://cid-407d7ef0965d3991.skydrive.live.com:80/self.aspx/Pure%20Enduro/oilpremix.pdf
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Hi Shortshift,
Thanks for the advice.
I will try TTS at 25:1 in my Maico and see how it performs.
Sorry about the CZ question I thought you were Shortshifter a CZ rider and all round good guy from the Sunshine Coast of Queensland.
I normally use BP Ultima fuel but last weekend I could only get Shell V Power and I must admit the bike ran better. I normally top out in second gear around the Nudgee second sweeper or lug around it in third. But last weekend I was powering out of the sweeper in third and changing to fourth just as I straightened the bike.
As I said I do not use 747 to save money as it now costs nearly $40.00 a litre. I used it because the engine rebuilder recommended it. I would not be so hard on the man to suggest he has another agenda as he also uses 747 at 40:1 in his Maico's which he has quite a fleet.
The Maico manual states that the bike develops 38hp at 7800rpm with a max torque of 3.5mkp at 6400rpm. They also recommend 20:1 with two stroke oil or 40:1 special high quality oil, Castrol super TT. Bel-Ray MC3 or 100:1 with Maico MC-GP-100 mix oil. Fuel should be High octane 92+ oil mix.
With that said I rev my bike like a Jap engine keeping it up into the top end of the revs. The Maico's are meant to be ridden by short shifting and using the torque. I have tried that style and found I get passed. So, I keep my bike at about say 5000 to 7000 rpms all the time on the track except in knife corners. The fellow that rebuilds my engines has told me to stop revving the engine and change gears at least 1000 revs sooner, but like most I do not want to be passed. I have never experienced heat fade I have found detonation just before I change gears at the very top end of the revs but that was only when I used month old fuel. I now drain every drop of fuel from the bike after every race and only fill it again on race day with same day purchased fuel. Since I have done this I no longer get any detonation.
I really have enjoyed this post and you seem to know you lubricants.
I look forward to more Tech stuff in the future.
Keep well
Ji
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I would post an image of the replaced piston from my Maico that has raced one season but I will have to remember how to photobucket again.
The piston shows signs of blow back on the exhaust side only and virtually no wear. The milling marks are still visible all round the piston.
Ji
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Here we go.
This is a 1 season old piston from a Maico with 40:1 747 mix.
Ji(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/Piston1a.jpg)
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The small end bearing shows little sign of wear.
The wrist pin moves in and out of the piston as if it was new.
The blow back mark on the piston mirrors the exhaust ports.
As can be seen there is very little carbon build up.
There was only a small amount of oil sludge in the bottom of the crankcase, not really worth talking about, certainly not 20ml or anything. The crankshaft was shiny with oil and there was no black goo or anything.
Ji
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There are a couple of minor technical details that are incorrect in an otherwise correct thread.
Lead slows burn rates, THAT gives the anti-knock properties that gives the octane rating. However in the late 90's a breakthrough allowed tuners to use MORE compression and timing than they used with leaded fuel.GP 125/250's all use Castor synthetic oils and they don't rev to 15,000(except maybe on over rev momentarily).There is no need for oil to hang around in crankcases at high rpm it is needed more at LOWER rpm due to the longer time between intake pulses.Never ever heard anyone refer to oil 'drag' in 2T engines, only oil making bearings skid instead of rolling.
If your ignition, fuel, timing, compression, squish and jetting are correct it highly unlikely you will get detonation and even more unlikely from types or amounts of oil. If oil quenches flame fronts that will supress detonation not cause it.I would doubt that oil would do this anyway.
Who would trust a Volvo dealer ;D ;D ;D
Ji I would love to know how you determined that you had detonation while riding the bike? Also that piston shows absolutely NO signs of detonation.The carbon wash patterns appear to be quite normal(if a fraction rich) and I think the front carbon pattern is likely to be from the return pulse from the pipe.Also your engine builder has overlooked a very basic modification that should be mandatory on that piston in a Maico cylinder.
The original Jennings test has been mirrored by A Graham Bell and some bloke called 'spanky' in the US all found the same thing more oil=more power, and spanky's words are always apt "nobody ever killed a 2T by using to much oil"
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Hi Lozza,
Always good to hear from you.
You always find errors in every sentence.
At the top of the revs before I change gears the engine goes from ringing or screaming to dadadadada.
I did not know what this sound was but other Maico owners suggested detonation or fin vibration.
The piston shows absolutely no sign of detonation.
May be it had something to do with stale fuel more so than detonation, but that is why this is a forum. So different experiences can be discussed and unusual things can be the usual.
Ji
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its good to see photos. Perhaps you Alex can take some photos of your piston next time your inside your engine, showing the condition of the piston.
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I did not bring the detonation theory up to hijack this great thread.
It was just part of my experiences and what other riders suggested, right or wrong. This thread is to explore oil mixes and how they effect your engine. I found the fact that it takes 30 minutes for a mix to have any effect on the engines performance to be very interesting.
The piston image was posted so we can see what 40:1 747 mix does to a piston over a season.
Does anyone else have images of their pistons after a season on 20:1 mix?
Ji
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Ji, $40 per litre is a very steep price to pay for any oil. I would have thought it would be perhaps $25 at the most...At my local bike shop, Ridersedge, they sell TTS in 4 litre packs for I think $65 and you will get better performance and engine life with this oil than what you are using at the ratios i recommended...........as I have said you do not get what you pay for in your case and all the other Maico riders and VMX owners from using these top end oils. They are wasting their money!
You will experience the better cleanliness and lubricity from the clean burning TTS and their equivalents from other company's. A rule of thumb is dont buy the most expensive oil.
Your piston looks reasonably OK and can be sanded lightly with fine emery paper checked for sizes and reused if OK. One of my pistons had that same burn marks, only much worse, under the eyebrow of exhaust port that was a result of the elongation of the cylinder outwards from overheating and insufficient oil causing this blowby. You may be expereinced these same conditions, perhaps try enriching the jet needle one circlip notch. I could bet that the piston will be cleaner when you pull your top end apart next year with 20-25:1 of TTS and 98 Octane pump fuel. On my piston now there is no brown blowby at all in this region after having a rebore to bring back this "roundness" of the cylinder.
Big Bore bikes are made to shift the gears at roughly 10% above the peak torque curve, if you rev it more than that your rate of acceleration will not increase any more. Your 250 requires you to rev it out a lot longer before changing gears as it is not a 400/440 or 490 so adjust your riding style accordingly.
The oil recomendations in your Maico manual??? The figures of 20:1 would have been written by the wise Maico engineers, the other figures of 100:1 would have been given to Maico by oil companys who waltzed through the door at some point and they guaranteed it would work in their engines. The Maico oil mentioned would have been a rebranded oil with a Maico label made by the same oil company that walked in looking for exposure and sales volume to lower their cost per unit of production.
Lozza is right in saying that high lead content is fuels slow down the burn rate, and we could see this under lab conditions running engine tests with micro camera's in the combustion chambers watching the incoming swirling fuel charge of 4 stroke engines (film slowed down of course for us to see) and the flame fronts were slower as the octane of fuel went higher. In our tests engine we had a device inside the chamber where we could change the size of the chamber at will increasing or decreasing the compression. It was fun to adjust the timing and fiddle with other adjustments to test different formulations and octanes of fuel. Avgas 100 burns slow in low compression motors and some people think that by adding Avgas or racing fuel your bike or car will go faster. But INCREASE the compression ratio and everything comes together to make large HP. But in my experience a 2 stroke just makes more torque and smooth power with higher octane fuels around 100 and 102 race fuels when everything else is constant. Ji saw this too.
For example your normal 91 pump gas in Australia (lowest available here.........I think in the US it is 87) it burns faster than say 95 or 98, and this is a factor in causing detonation if your compression is too high for the fuel.
Also Lead back then allowed a very mild form of EP (Extreme Pressure) additive for a 2 stroke engine (we all know about valve seat wear with ULP fuels in old cast iron non hardened heads) and this did assist with dry film lubrication of sliding surfaces as in cylinders. Now ULP fuel is very "dry" as it contains volatile solvents (like paint thinners) that do not offer any lubrication almost like and LPG engine requiring small amounts of oil injection (Valve Saver).
Also the "Ashless" nature of a 2T oil offers even less residual ingredients for offering a buffer to metal parts. In 4 stroke engines you have residual ash in the form of what is called Sulphated Ash (SA)from the burning of the detergent/dispersant additive package where it was found that a minimum of 1% SA would offer valve recession protection with engines that consumed some oil in their operation that went past the exhaust valve. Diesel engine oil have a higher SA due to higher additve content to combat Sulphuric Acid attack from the sulphur in the fuel.
My point here in mentioning other fuel/engine types is that by using less oil in your premix you are starving your engine (the metal parts that rub against each other) with the essential additives that are contained within them by the formulator to offer a chemical coating to the engine parts (very thin) where you will have chemical to chemical contact rather than pur metal to metal contact.
Castor Oil for instance has the least need for extraneous additional additive treatment due to its tenacious adhesion to metal parts. As Lozza described the term, "Shear Strength" that is a natural quality of this base fluid due to its Polarity. To define this term, Polar Compounds like Castor oil have molecules that have a strong affinity for solid metal surfaces. Sort of like our natural affinity to sexy women and old dirtbikes! These molecules plate out to form a tough friction reducing film that cannot be broken easily through shear forces (eg : cutting forces of the piston rings or port edges). They are also reffered to as having "Metal Wetting" properties to explain it another way. As in any positive quality they are "polar" and at the other end of the spectrum Castor oil absorbs water affecting its storage life and some riders have found rust in their motors from moisture being pulled in via any openings (exhaust and breather). I have seen engines an orange to green corossion all over their flywheels and other ferrous (steel) internal engine parts.
Never heard of "oil drag" in a 2 stroke?...........you learn something new every day.............it is an important aspect that needs to be taken into the equation when spending all that time and money in the workshop to optimise a bikes performance.......Oil hangup is all part of studying fluid dynamics throughout an engine.....Formula 1 teams spend millions in analysing this element..............it robs power through absorbtion almost like a hydraulic brake and is one of the hidden things that most lay people cannot see or predict...........We are all here to learn including myself.
The issues with skidding bearings in my experience (never heard of this happening in a 2 stroke engine and cannot see how as 2T oils do not contain certain additives that promote this) is when people add friction modifiers to their oil charge in a 4 stroke motorcycle application. These are Moly, Teflon, and sulphur/phosphorus brews that are detrimental to not only wet clutches, but to needle bearings where the bearings dont turn and roll over and around the crank pin but their rolling motion is stopped by these "solid" additives as virtually all metal to metal contact is stopped (which in other circumstances is great news) and the stationery bearing then "skids" around the crankpin gradually flat spotting itself. When the oil is then changed and no solid additives are added metal to metal contact (or what is correctly referred to as "Thin Film Lubrication" as in bearing applications.....hence the clearances in bearings to make room for the oil film) returns then you usually end up with a disintegrated bearing and massive engine noise. Sometimes this happens in seconds, with consequences like thrown conrods ending your ride for the day. Many a Harley engine has been lunched when the owner puts in Slick50, Molybond, Nulon or the like and wrecks his needle bearings inside the flywheels on his big end. He thought that since the engine is separate from the gearbox and clutch it is Ok to do this.
Ford had a big issue in the 90's when they put 3% moly greases in their Wheel bearings and had huge warranty work from flat spotting. They went back to the blue tacky grease with no more issues.
My point about oil creating detonation is well known fact that has been around since the engine was designed. When engine oil goes inside the combustion chamber it causes detonation. Ask any car mechanic, any foreign material entering a combustion chamber such as diesel or lube oil will lead to detonation. Maybe I should have used the term "Dieseling" so that readers could understand more what I wrote. Ji perhaps is experiencing this rather than outright full detonation (as defined occurring through incorrect timing, fuel octane, preignition etc) so lozza would be right in saying that if all the other factors are in their correct specifications then detonation should not occur. A heavy molecule of A747 would be harder to convert into a very fine mist when travelling through the carburettor when converted to a gas from a liquid. In Euro 4 diesels nowadays the injection pressure is extremely high (6,000PSI) where the diesel is virtually a gas like LPG and some think one day you could ignite it with a form of spark plug. I believe that in future modern 2T bikes fuel injection will be the norm and if high enough pressures will be adopted then the 2 stroke premix will be atomised to a very fine gaseous form. But I don't think you could fit such a large pressure pump on a motorcycle, but future technology with miniaturisation who knows.
It needs to be noted that our 2 strokes are somewhere between a diesel engine and a normal 4 stroke engine with its fuel. It is why in our old VMXer's cannot really handle Or need) these hi vis oils (that are also the most expensive) that really needs some more education for VMX riders as in forums like this. It is just a case of that we love our bikes so much like our kids so we want to buy them the best (read: expensive) and end up with issues that seem to have plagued many riders in the VMX and also the modern scene. So we are stretching what the fuel systems and engines of our bikes are capable of doing so please use the lighter vis grades of 2T oils for optimum performance.
Ji, I will email that photo of your piston to my tuner for his opinion as well to see if he can interpret anything new. As Lozza said you can interpret the carbon marks on the piston to tell you if your timing is too advanced or retarded amongst other things. My bike detonated like crazy once before I jetted it right (enriched it) but the piston showed no signs of typical detonation after two long rides under these conditions. It did have a ceramic coating but that wouldn't stop the affects of detonation eating it out.
Spanky's article appears here and his revised post is further down the page :
http://www.mxnewsfeed.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=21
Alexander Graham Bells book (out of print) is compulsory reading for anyone interested in getting their 2 strokes running to their optimum. Tuners around the world use his research like a bible. I think I have his book on PDF I will check my files and try to post it on a new post..
I have my old piston I pulled out of the bike that I will post a pic of. I will at some stage pull my cylinder and take a photo of the piston that is currently being used. It is also ceramic and moly coated and this is something I can recommend to owners. I got mine done by Jet Hot Coatings in Castlemaine Victoria who also did the silver coating on my expansion chamber. What do others think about the coating of pistons? has it worked for you? Do 2 stroke tuners such as Lozza adopt this technology for longevity and reliability.
The overall theme and objective of this entire post is to research and offer readers options and ideas to enhance the operation and running of their bikes, and throughout the discussions we can bring up related mechanical concepts (moly coatings to enhance lubrication and ceramic coatings to prevent heat transfer etc) that can further the initial opening discussion of oil ratios/2T oil viscosities. And totatly new posts can be created by people who specialise in these other fields. This will then not lead to diluting the initial posts message and topic of debate.
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Avgas 100 burns slow in low compression motors and some people think that by adding Avgas or racing fuel your bike or car will go slower. But INCREASE the compression ratio and everything comes together to make large HP.
I've siad this before, but plenty of people with rally cars have found that they make more power with an engine optimised for 98-octane pump fuel than they did with an engine optimised for AvGas.
AvGas has a nice high octane rating and is very consistant, but not much else going for it.
For example your normal 91 pump gas in Australia (lowest available here.........I think in the US it is 87) it burns faster than say 95 or 98, and this is a factor in causing detonation if your compression is too high for the fuel.
The USA uses the MON ratings, whereas we use RON (or maybe the other way 'round, I can never remember).
Regardless, their numbers are lower for similar fuels - their 87 octane fuel isn't as crappy as most Australians would tend to think.
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I can tell you for fact coatings on piston crowns PROMOTE detonation. Especialy if coated in the squish band region. I have found most coatings on the skirt wear off even on road bikes with airboxes and filters.Coatings like DLC which work a treat in 4 strokes loose HP in 2 stroke because of no oil retention. So you could say IMO they are a complete waste of money but don't let my opinion stop anyone getting something like a piston coated.
I cannot see any correlation in the internals of an F1 engine and a GP 250 2T engine,only that they are both pure bred racing engines. Camera's will tell very little a KISTLER (http://www.kistler.com/pressure-transducer_en) tells everything you need to know(a transducer/spark plug 1000GBP).
Mr Smola tells me US is an average of RON/MON values and some clever Kiwi kart tuners are actualy making more HP tuning to 95 PULP fuel.Go figure.
shortshifter you have some WPM speed there, would have taken me a week to type that ;D
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You really can not draw any conclusions unless all the facts are presented.
After my Maico engine was rebuilt last year and I ran it in on 30:1 747, to my surprise I discovered the unburnt oil was pouring out of the exhaust pipe. This lead me to believe that I should use 40:1 as the oil was passing straight through the engine and fouling every thing in its wake. I thought that it was not doing anything good, it may be fouling the plug, soaking the packing in my silencer and carboning the chamber. The sleeve was standard size and so was the piston. The sleeve received a light hone and assembled.
The engine was run in at the Conondale Classic last year and I would say now thinking about it that I ran the engine for about 30 to 40 minutes.
The next time the engine was worked I mixed a new batch of 40:1 747 and the engine performed like a race bike. Hardly any smoke on the track at revs, no oil pouring out of the exhaust pipe and one kick starts with my left leg. The power was up and I was ripping. The engine did still seem a little stiff so I did not push the revs up to high. At its next meet at Tamborine I finished the day with 1 first, 2 seconds and 3 fourths. The engine was on fire and running like a Swiss watch.
I was very happy with the 40:1 747 mix recommendation and have not changed. I do find I have to mix the oil into the fuel with a spoon to make sure all of the 25ml per litre goes into the tank and not left behind in the jerry can.
With that said and the fact that it takes 30 minutes of run time to purge an engine of its last meal I can now conclude that may be the oil pouring out of my muffler when running the motor in was not from the 30:1 mix but was the pre-assembly oil.
I will purchase some TTS and try 25:1.
I will only start my appraisal after 40 minutes of run time.
I will not change anything else so any change will be the mix.
I will rejet the carb to accommodate the new mix (this will be the only change)
I currently run an Iridium spark plug and it is the same plug that I ran the engine in last year. I have never cleaned it and it has never given an ounce of trouble.
I purchase my 747 at Super Cheap Auto and it cost me $39.00 for 1 litre the last time.
I am the only one that has shown an image of what my mix is doing inside the engine. Please don't be shy I want to see what Lozza and Shortshift engines look like or else this post will only be theory based on others work.
Ji
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Avgas 100 burns slow in low compression motors and some people think that by adding Avgas or racing fuel your bike or car will go slower. But INCREASE the compression ratio and everything comes together to make large HP.
I've siad this before, but plenty of people with rally cars have found that they make more power with an engine optimised for 98-octane pump fuel than they did with an engine optimised for AvGas.
AvGas has a nice high octane rating and is very consistant, but not much else going for it.
They make more power? maybe more usable power.
High octane fuels allow higher compression and more advanced timing to be used with less chance of detonation. For outright hp high octane fuels win.
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Nope. More power - the power curve is basically the same, just bigger.
Even allowing for the high octane rating, AvGas is a very slow burning fuel - as best as I can tell, this makes it less than ideal in a car engine (even though its got plenty of octane rating).
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With regards to moly coating of piston skirts (See http://www.jet-hot.com.au/products.htm for an explanation of their Thermal Barrier and Low Friction coatings) I found when I installed the piston to my bike something that may in fact aid oil retention. My tuner (Ian Tate from TRE race engines swears on thermal coatings for all his 2 stroke engines, bikes, carts, PWC and outboards and has a rolling acount with HPC coatings. Some car company's like Honda are employing moly coatings for their vehicles.
So before slipping the cylinder over the new piston I painted 2 stroke oil onto the moly coating and inside the cylinder surface with a soaked tissue to ensure oil is present upon first kickover. The moly coating was like a sponge that absorbed the oil and I had to reapply it with oil 3 more times until it was saturated enough showing adequate oil on the surface. I thought this is fantastic as the moly coating not only provides a chemical barrier for the piston to prevent it from touching the cylinder wall but also acts like an oil reservoir to hold oil. This can only equate to the optimum situation for cylinder wall lubrication.
I had my expansion chamber off a few weeks ago to replace a leaking exhaust flange gasket and of course shone a torch inside the exhaust port to take a look and the coatings was still there in one piece. I wiped the piston with a tissue to get the oil off and there was no scratch marks (scuffing).
Eventually the coating will wear off as in the picture below. The coating i feel wore off too fast as not enough oil was used in the premix by the previuos owner.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/SwaintechCoatings.jpg)
Below are two photo's of pistons with their front exhaust (Thrust faces) looking at us, the side that gets most wear. One contains the original piston on the left that came out of the bike that had hard heavy carbon deposits on the top, on the underside of the crown and severe varnish arpound the ring lands. The piston pin is stuck hard in the piston and needed to be mechanically removed. The pin iself showed excessive wear where the small end bearing ran on. The moly coating has worn off on the lower parts of the skirt. This had 40:1 Motul 800 with BP Ultimate 98 octane fuel used througout its life. (The owner should have run 710 @ 20:1) In fact he told me when I bought the bike to restore he ran 20:1 with 800 and it loaded up and didnt run very well.
The piston in the middle is a brand new piston straight out of the box as a reference piston. The piston on the right is what I took out a few months ago before fitting another moly and ceramic coated unit that has run 20:1 Castrol TTS with BP Ultimate or Mobil Synergy 8000 fuel with the odd tank full of 100+ and 102 racing fuel. It has done several Vinduro's, CD5, and lots of trailriding over 18 months. It is still in a new condition and will be reused again. I was very relieved when I slipped off the cylinder and saw that, with lots of oil coming off the piston. You will also see the mark down the front, that is the scratch mark caused by the decompression notch from the PE400 that I had to take the sharp edge of with a stone after the first ride. During the rebore the port edges were relieved but not to the notch. Very few engines have this feature so it was soemthing that was overlooked, you live and learn.
Since I was sending my expansion chamber and other parts to be coated I decided to send a new piston to get coated as well and fit that and remove the uncoated piston fitted during the overhaul in mid 2007. I wanted to do everything to ensure the longevity of the engine so that I can still ride it in 20 years time.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/Pistons001.jpg)
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/Pistons002.jpg)
Ji, Just to define some of what you are saying in your last post that will also help other readers dispel some misconceptions. 2 stroke oil doesnt actually "burn" like diesel fuel in a diesel engine. The 2T oil does not ignite along with the petrol and create forces that send the piston back down the cylinder. It goes through the engine as a lubricant and gets thrown out the exhaust. Many riders see oil come out of their exhausts in liquid form and believe they are running too much oil and then next time wind back the mixture. This is incorrect practice and cannot be used to solve an issue where in fact the engine requires this oil and perhaps slightly more to get 20-25:1. I have described previuosly that heavy oils condense and dont get thrown out in the gas stream. I dont have this issue of excess oil as I run the right viscosity designed for the machine. I still have black oil leaking out from the silencer/chamber joint at times.
Assembly Oil? I dont think it would be that as there would have been hardly a teardropper full put on the small end and piston. However we cannot be sure. I am glad that you are now looking at the running of your bike from a new angle and now you may find room for improvement.
Dont be scared to wind your bike out when you run more oil as it will be better protected. It will also allow the bike to reach higher temperatures and gas speeds to expel the oil from the entire system.
Also Autobarn and Supercheap Auto are very expensive for motorcycle oils. I had a look at the prices for Castrol and Repsol and couldnt believe the prices. Try a motorcycle shop.
I have been asked to also make up an XL type spreadsheet to list the major/popular manufacturers 2T oils available in Australian motorcycle shops in their respective classes to offer an easy reference chart for comparison and convenience for purchasing. I can have a go at that at some stage. Some close formulations may have an overlap in quality/additive systems that it is not correct to say that Oil A is exactly equivalent to Oil B. It can be used a guide.
There is also discussion moving towards fuels, and I guess that this is perhaps beneficial as fuel is the bacon to the 2T oil (the eggs). You cannot do without the other.
Just in 25 words or less, Avgas is not the best 100 octane fuel for automotive applications. It has many addtives in there that are aviation specific such as to stop carb icing at 10,000 feet, scavenging additives to remove lead previuosly put down by leaded avgas amongst many others. It has remained unchanged since WW2.
There is much better technology today from any of the main race fuel suppliers, Martini, ELF, Fuel 2 Race, Unocal and VP to name a few.
95 Octane fuel is sometimes a better formulation than the 98 sold by the same company. I need to look into this more but I have heard from some private road race teams they get a better run out of Shell 95 etc.
The posts primary objective is written in the interests of, and in the education of the VMX community on 2T oils, the differences available and the suggested ratios for older bikes (with no brand preferences or information that has been regurgitated by oil distributors who heard information from the person previuosly in the same position that has somehow become company gospel) and most importantly the big trap we all face when it is time to reach inside our wallets and buy more oil, to wade through the barriers associated with fancy packaging, price/quality/suitability relatonship, advertising hype, trick names and what someone has heard from another at a race track or told by a shop.
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Does anyone use more oil than 20 to 1 for motocross/enduro/trail use, eg 16 or 18 to 1? i would like to know how did the magical figure of 20 to 1 become the universally excepted ideal mix ratio?
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Hi Shortshift,
With all due respect and knowing that you purchased the bike and was told by the previous owner what he ran the engine on. I find it hard to believe that that piston is like it is due to 40:1 mix.
How long has it been since it was installed?
What was the gap between piston and sleeve?
Did he service the air filter?
..............
That piston looks like it was abused.
I don't think that is a true indication of a properly maintained bike run on 40:1 mix.
Look at mine and look at yours, no way.
I replace the gear box oil after every race.
I clean the air filter after every race.
I wash the bike after every outing.
That piston can not be used as scientific data or even as a forum comparison due to the lack of service knowledge. Scientific experiments have to be reproducible in anyones lab and there is insufficient data or back ground on that train wreck.
Ji
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well i can tell you that shortshift personally told me right from the begining 2 or 3 years ago when he got that bike, that the previous owner was running 40 to 1 in his bike. I just shook my head and couldnt believe it (40 to 1 in a air cooled motor) and everything he found in his motor all made sense and fitted in with running 40 to 1. He found the barrel-head joint was distorted and the cylinder wall distorted due to overheating with too little oil. in my opinion i reckon you would have to be crazy to run 40 to 1 in an air cooled motor and i would never do it, but on the otherhand i know theres guys that think people who run 20 to 1 are just as crazy. Also when i have bought used bikes, first thing i ask is what premix ratio they were using in the bike.
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Hi Shortshift. Thanks for taking the time to help out others. I am currently using Motul 800 due to being readily available. I run it at 25:1. I also try and buy my fuel at a Caltex servo which now that i think of it is because of issues i was told with Shell (ultimate?) in modern four strokes before i was into vmx. After the nationals i am going to change the oil i run to Maxima Super M ester based synthetic blend.I would be mixing at the same ratio.
I would appreciate any input as i am doing what i feel is right but may be way off.
One other thing. I was tipping Motul 800 into my measuring cup and noticed some gel like lumps in the oil. I consequently did not use it fearing there were issues with it. Any idea what this could be?
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Brad, I have experienced the same gel lumps in Motul 800 ( CD6 )
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noticed some gel like lumps in the oil
Me too, also at CD6???
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Brad, I have experienced the same gel lumps in Motul 800 ( CD6 )
noticed some gel like lumps in the oil
Me too, also at CD6???
Just at home for me.
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I will expand this post to include more information to assist with Ji, 090 and LWC's information later on, as I have other committments today, but I will handle the issue of the "Potential Contamination and Non -Conformance of the Motul 800" as this is a seriuos matter, and needs to be addressed urgently as this is not normal.
As part of an oil firms Quality Management System (QMS) we have set procedures to handle any reporting of "Non-Conformances" and what has been described by so far 3 separate entities could have possible consequences for product quality and performance (ie:failure of the motorcycle to be sufficiently lubricated). I havent seen the product of course but it may sound like an unsatisfactory blend with additive clumping from then being mixing insufficiently at the right temperature?? I cannot be sure.
What all three of these people (so far) need to do in order to handle this professionally and get some product replacement/redress/product recall (and eventual answers by the manufacturer) is to first Identify the Non-Conformance which you have done, then "Identify the defective product" in your possession, so go down to your garages & sheds. I would also drain any fuel from the bikes tanks.
We then decide what action to take? The action you should take is to do an inventory of your stock on hand, note down the batch numbers on the bottles and/or cartons (maybe the Date of manufacture appears on there as well, note that too). If the batch # is not on the bottle it may appear on the carton the shop has that holds either 12 or 24 bottles of 1 litres, if they havent thrown it away. The bar code may be OK for traceability.
Gather your purchase receipts for the oil as proof of where you bought the product and the quantity. Perhaps you threw them out of the car window on your way home so your wife doesnt find them in your pockets to see how much money you spend on your bikes.
You need to quarantine the product so that it does not get used by anyone else. Contact the shop or wherever you bought it from so that they can quarantine the stock on the shelves/stands, they then need to contact the wholesaler/importer to then contact Motul in France to take remedial action.
If you guys can work out if all your stock on hand has the same batch number......hopefully it is isolated to the one batch as is usually the case, but the batch gets broken up and sold worldwide..........a sample of the bottle (hopefuly with these lumps) needs to be sent to the Importer and then sent express to Motul for lab analysis. Open up the bottles you have in your posssesion and examine for lumps (This sounds like an oil breast self examination!) and pour everything back in and close it up.
DO NOT use the product on hand until further notice upon hearing from Motul through their supply channels what the problem is. Sometimes they do not tell you what the issue was, they will just give you replacement product. Motul, through their worldwide distributor network then need to conduct a product recall of the suspect batch from all their dealers and shops and put ads in the variuos motorcycle magazines to notify past purchasers of this recall. This should happen the moment they are notified of this Non-Conformance. The importer should have this in their procdures as well.
Motul will understand this system of procedures as they are ISO9000 certified so if you do the above you are doing the right thing by them and yourselves who spent the money on their product. They will appreciate the feedback (Not the local shops and importer as it is a pain and hassle to send stock back to the importer)
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Bar code 3 374650 018348 of my batch
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090, The top of the range Caltex fuel is fine as it comes from either Shell or Mobil in Vic, BP in WA and Caltex in QLD...........The issues with Shell Optimax (Ultimate is the BP grade that is very good too) are ongoing and something was not right when it was launched some 6 years ago. it is why people who run their bikes on Shell prefer the 95 grade. When it first came out I tried a tank full out of curiosity and I almost ran out of the Mobil 8000 so rode into a Shell garage at filled up wth Optimax. I took off down the road and when the Mobil was finsihed and replaced with Shell in the float bowl the difference in ridability was profound. With a steady throttle opening cruising down the road the speed and power dropped off requiring me to open the throttle a little more to maintain the same speed. I went back to Mobil or BP. A few weeks after this lots of publicity came to the fore about Optimax from cars and bikes. Shell lost the supply to the Dutton Rally, Targa and other major events due to the issues. BP took over this contract. Shell had to backpedal somewhat and about 2 years ago launched V-Power 100.
To expand Lozza's comment about the use of 95 octane fuel see below correspondence between myself and Fuels2Race in Sydney a few years back. Do not discount the use of 95 fuel it may be better, in fact I will try it for next weekends Vinduro at Harrow:
Q3. Any advantage to normal sports car with ECU tuned to suit EPA standard and 95 Octane fuel?
A. Yes, absolutely!! Firstly, most factory built ‘performance’ cars are set to take advantage of common and widely available unleaded 95 RON petroleum fuel (which can also vary considerably in quality and the time of year due to the 4 main, summer, autumn, winter and spring blends produced by the majors) from the majors’ petrol station network, however, most standard ECU only work around 70-80% engine potential to allow for everyday driving such as in traffic, bad maintenance, primary lubricant dependant engine wear and high mileage. Secondly, it is the engines volumetric efficiency and construction parameters which depict what octane level it can actually use when performance is the main issue, which is also why there are so many ECU mods available. Thirdly and the most important is engines use heat to produce power and not all the driving power (energy) is necessarily reached at maximum volumetric efficiency or RPM, a lot of driving power (more in line with the engines torque) can be had at lower engine revs from a fuel with additional energy features producing more low/mid power as well as peak power.
To further understand the difference, I give you an example from tests we carried out on a BMW 325i, a Porsche Boxster and Mercedes E200 Kompressor, all come set to run on premium unleaded 95 octane petrol and all have computer fuel monitoring. In the case of the Merc, it ran virtually identical mileage, between 8.6-8.9 litres per 100 K’s at 110 KPH highway speeds on 95 or 98 commercial fuel, however trialing our 100+ it used less throttle setting at the same 110 KPH and only consumed 7.3 litres per 100 K’s, showing the 100+ fuel to have more energy. So what does this mean or translate to, well in performance tests at Western Sydney International Dragway and at Wakefield Park Raceway, a number of tests were done but taking 2 seconds off the 0 to 160 acceleration test by nothing more than a fuel change from 98 octane commercial fuel to our 100+ proved substantial.
We now have a whole range of racer feedback on differing combinations producing certain dyno engine or rear wheel power gains and certainly a mass of improved and consistent track performances.
Another point is that I found that the higher the octane of fuel I ran in the 2 stroke the less throttle opening I had to use, I rode one enduro with only 1/4 to 1/2 throttle openings all day, that 102 race fuel was amazing.
I didnt try anything higher than 102 and cannot say if by the law of diminishing returns it would get better with anything higher (Then we start talking about $6 a litre fuel here!!) before performance or benefits declined.
http://www.maximausa.com/products/2stroke/supermpremix.asp Mamixa is one of the USA's leading motorcycle oil manufacturers and from what I have learnt from their R&D over the last 25 years they really are the innovators. As part of my technical training in the late 80's I read about Dick Lichien's pioneering work (Maxima's owner) on blending castor oils with POE's that was an exciting time for the motorcycle industry. Other oil majors then copied Maxima's work to bring out A747 and other Castor/Synthetics when the patent expired. I used their products way back then but then went 4 stroke and used another brand. I would have full confidence with their products due to the research and testing that has gone through with this product. Unlike some other US oil firms that are owned by outside family investors, not engaged in the company, Maxima is owned and run by enthusiasts whose entire lives are dedicated to perfecting a product and are not scared to trial and error new ideas, so you can use their products with full confidence..
The Maxima Super M is on the slightly heavy side of viscosity grade so run no richer than 25:1. I would personally use their Super M Injector (That is still suitable for premix, it just runs a lighter base fluid) which is half the viscosity of the other Super M and you can use that to 20:1. Also their Premium 2 down to 20-25:1 in our VMX bikes is more than suitable.
http://www.maximausa.com/technical/oilmigration.html An excellent post here about 2T oil migration. It would have been great if Maxima also stated which one of their oils was used in this test as that would help to make more sense when interpreting the figures and drawing conclusions. From my interpretation it was either their Castor 927 or SuperM Premix heavier grade blends.
I have already addressed the situation with the Motul 800 and am surprised that 090 is the only person so far that has quarantined it and not gone ahead with mixing and running it in your bike. Perhaps you were making coffee and added 2 lumps into your oil by error. It appears to be additive agglomeration from a blending malfunction, unsatisfactory blending or an issue with the additive supplier. Perhaps the additves were not heated sufficiently before beign added to he base fluids in the blend vat. The Motul lab will be able to tell in a jiffy once they get a sample. I am also surprised that Motul have not issued a product recall as this seems like a widespread problem where you would think at least someone would have bitched to the importer or to Motul in France and commenced an investigation and recalled all the stock of the affected batch number. This is 2 months old now and nothing seems to have been done.
We need more people in the future posting photo's of their pistons running variuos oils and mixes. Ji seems to have everything in order with the operation and running of his bikes and if all of us ran such a tight and professional maintenance regime many of our problems with breakdowns and wear would not occur as often. What appears to me with Ji's piston is that it is at the very edge of the graph with regards to its minimum acceptable oil ratio. Any leaner and you may start to expereince more scuffing. With more oil now (of a different viscosity grade) you will experience more HP gains due to greater lubricity and friction reduction inside your engines. You will find it much easier to mix and blend with your fuel. No more spoons required.
It will take time for riders to change their premix formulations with new oil to then determine its affectiveness.
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is there any chances the suspect batch of Motul is isolated to one area? oldfart and 090 are in QLD. could it be related to humidity or storage temperature? just a thought
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Thanks very much for the advise. Good to here Maxima is a good thing. To be honest, i have always been wary of Motul as it is only big here in Oz and pretty much no where else in the world. I never put any Motul product in any four stroke i owned either. It was always the easiest product to buy is all. I will find out if the injector M is imported and if not, i will ask for a box to be put in their next shipment.
I will take the suspect bottle of 800 straight to the importer (Link Int.) as they are close to me. Saves going through too many people wanting to put it in the too hard basket.
Cheers, Brad.
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hi every one i use motorex speed mix 2t at 200ml per 5 litres dont know much about this topic but so far the pe 175 seems to love it i could be wrong is this a good mix for my bike thanx gary
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is there any chances the suspect batch of Motul is isolated to one area? oldfart and 090 are in QLD. could it be related to humidity or storage temperature? just a thought
No LWC, these products are designed to be very stable in all operating climates with regards to their shelf life and storage. I will also ask Stewart if he has experenced this as well, he is on the Gold Coast. (Oh OK Oldfart is Stewart!:-)
Oldskool, that is an ideal mix. Remember that you need to mix 200ml of oil PLUS 5 litres of petrol to get a 5.2 litre total blend. Some guys make the error in mixing say in your case 200ml of oil to 4.8 litres of fuel. This will in fact enrichen your mixture slightly. You need to wind your PE175 out to get the best from it so add a dash extra to the mix.
And good idea 090 to go straight to the importer to get the quickest action. Linc will courier the suspect package to France for evaluation. Ask that you be contacted when the results are supplied. Once the reasons are determined Linc should replace what you have bought. Linc should contact all their outlets to quarantine the stock until results are out. Motul CANNOT sweep this into the too hard basket as they are obliged to carry this through all the way to maintain confidence in their products..
Wasp, Is the Motul man there the local Linc representative, or a rep flown in from France or perhaps their regional office in Singapore? I dont know how far the Nats are but this issue needs to be bought up immediately with Linc, Motul will also appreciate speedy action.
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200mls to 5 Liters of fuel is 25 to 1 ratio.
I think one of the reasons Motul is popular is that they have had a lot of exposure through ADB and donate a lot of products for prizes etc. I have a number of free premix ratio cards that came free with ADB mags i bought over the years when ever they had a special feature on oils.
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Wasp, I am not a customer of Motul currently so I have not been affected by the product in any way. It is up to the people affected by the product to make the call. Best to get only ONE person to discreetly contact Linc, give them the sample and they will courier it to France pronto. That is the extent of their obligation for the time being.
090 indicated he would contact linc, perhaps give him a contact name.
It is amazing that on one forum of a niche group of riders we had 3 people so far with the same issue. Imagine in the larger world of KTM250/300EXC owners who run 800 if they have had complaints.
What the average Joe does in this case is if he experiences this problem he just goes out and buys another brand of oil, which is a shame as really the problem may continue. "It is too much hassle to complain and easier just to buy another oil". His problem solved, shows the extent of his brand loyalty!
Since this thread has also reached into fuels, one other important point to consider is the use of fuel which contains Ethanol. Ethanol is simply wood alcohol primarily made by CSR (Commonwealth Sugar Refinery) from sugar cane that is used as a fuel extender. Its use is more politically motivated to help struggling farmers in some parts of the world to sell their crop of sugar cane. It can also be made from many other types of vegetation. It also panders to the Greenies as less holes are drilled into the ground to extract crude oil.
For us 2 stroke users we should never use it. Why? because for one reason the ethanol componant (which is not a hydrocarbon) will not marry itself with another hydrocarbon or synthetic hydrocarbon that is your 2T oil. I will have to dig out the technical post that discussed this by the API (American Petroleum Institute). The consequences are for us is that when you mix your fuel together and you have bought either 5% or 10% (E5,E10) ULP with Ethanol then your oil charge will only mix with either 95 or 90% of the "fuel". When you run your engine you will have 100% mix going through it but only 90 or 95% of this mixture will carry oil with it. So in fact when you thought you had a 32:1 mix you in fact have a 28.8:1 mix. This may seem a trivially small difference but for riders who really care about what they doing then it becomes significant. At 50:1 it becomes 45:1. So dont purchase your bikes fuel (even for 4 strokes) that contains Ethanol. Ethanol fuels will also eat your plugs out and make proper carb tuning/jetting and obtaining plug readings almost impossible.
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For us 2 stroke users we should never use it. Why? because for one reason the ethanol componant (which is not a hydrocarbon)
Excuse me???? Ethanol not a hydrocarbon??? :o
CH3CH2OH is a hydrocarbon in my book, albeit one with an OH attached to one of the carbon atoms.... ::)
Please explain? ::)
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I have rung around and no bike shops in Brisbane have Super M on the shelves. I would have to order it and wait until it comes in. RRP is $26.00/l
There is stock in the warehouse here in Brisbane.
Super M is a blend .
After I get and idea of how much it will actually cost and how long I have to wait for it I will let you know. Super Cheap is 5 minutes from home and has shelves full of TTS and 747.
Ji
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Unfortunately I threw the empty Motul bottle in the bin at Conondale so I'll never know the batch number. It's interesting that Oldfart, Brad and Doc purchased their Motul 700 in Queensland while I got mine in Sydney (actually a mate purchased it for me). With such a wide geographic area covered between us three you could presume that the "problem" was/is be far more prevalent than just us three. It's fair to believe that many of the users wouldn't have noticed the irregularity in the oil. I noticed it while my mate was mixing a batch of fuel for both his 490 Maico and my trials Maico. We looked at each other when the "blobs" went into the fuel drum, shrugged our shoulders and promptly forgot about it until the subject came up here. Both bikes performed beautifully all weekend with not a hint of drama.
I'll be very iterested to see what response Brad gets from Motul.
I used TTS for 20 something trouble free years and only went over to Motul because my mates who ride more often than I told me it was the ducks guts. I've no complaints at all with Motul but may just go back to TTS or once the B&S is sorted, Castrol R, if just for that wonderful smell!
Congratulations Shortshift, Ji and the other braniacs for helping me understand something I'd previously never given much thought to. It's threads like this that make us all that little bit better versed on the ins and outs of operating an old bike. I've been around 2 strokes for 40 years and I've learned a shitload from this thread alone, which proves that you're never too old to learn!
I
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Ajay is quiet right in that Ethanol is part of the Hydrocarbon family but the difference that I was making is that it is part of the Alcohol family like Methanol or Methylated Spirits largely distilled from plant life rather than fossil fuels (However research is being conducted to produce ethanol out of landfill gas, coal seam gas and other natural gases), and not part of the other family of Hydrocarbon families which make up our normal transport fuels and lubricating oils.
The alcohol types are not soluble (I should have perhaps used this term before and made the differentiation) with these other hydrocarbons resulting in the issues I previously described. The same way Methanol is not soluble with normal hydrocarbon lube oils requiring castor based fluids. Since mentioning the term "soluble" it is also a good time to mention the word "Miscible" as these words get confused. Your normal 2T oil is miscible with a slug of E10 94 octane ULP but the ethanol componant is not soluble with it that raises the issues described.
If in 10 years time ALL our ULP is laced with around 35% or 70% of Ethanol (and other Alcohol based plant derived solvents) then 2T formulators will have to use Castor based oils as a larger percentage in their blend. This will then add potential complexities and challenges to riders when mixing and storing their fuels.
One of the bright lights is that our future transport fuels will be made via the Gas to Liquids (GTL) method which will render Ethanol virtually obsolete and make the pressure groups who are against ethanol production, because it uses crops for food production (which should be used to feed the poor and starving they argue) for fuel for developed countries. Plans are under way off the NW shelf for this happen.
JI, Maxima is one agency I wish I had under my belt for Australia. It would be the only "automotive" category of product for me currently, the rest are all industrial related. Like any brand it all boils down to logistics of supply and distribution, servicing the customer base and having the market accept your product over the other. It is worth chasing up the Maxima importer to check stocks of SuperM Injector. As with many stockists/local agents they are not 100% sure which direction the market will swing to and dont want to get stuck with dead stock, so they may not have a particular grade on hand right now. I feel that A747 will sit on the shelves at Supercheap for a long time. Perhaps you were their only customer!
Firko you have good mates who would go out and buy oil for you. Maybe you bought the Bourbon or the meat.........your story about how one person uses a product from either referrals and Word of Mouth (The best form of marketing, costs no money for the marketer) is so prevalent not just in oil, but things like tyre choice......someone talks good about say Metzeler MC-4's then everyone buys them in that particular circle (DirtBikeBlokes is one example) and the importer runs out of stock and wonders what happened.
Typical guys, you saw something foreign go into your fuel mixing drums and proceeded to continue mixing and ran the fuel. Did anyone feel if the lumps contained solids or just soft gel? Motul France will determine that very quickly.
Your other example about how one guy makes his mind up that something is the "ducksguts" is also widespread. A customer from the ADF said to me once that he thinks one of the weapons oils I supply is S$#T, I said why? Because all the others say its S%#T. Well it looks like a Kangaroo, jumps like a Kangaroo, it must be a Kangaroo...............but in fact its a Wallaby! And you question them further and they put too much product on gumming everything up, too lazy to reapply 3 times a day with a squirt and prefer to flood the piece once a day so they dont have to go back until the next day................
But you want your bike to smell nice so OTHERS can smell your exhaust fumes!!! Instead of using a straight castor oil like Castrol R30, consider using the more up to date hybrid blend Castor/Synthetics such as the Maxima Castor 927, Shell Advance Racing M or Silkolene Pro KR2. These will give you much less worry or risk than a pure Castor and still throw out that fragrance we all love.
If you are using a pure mineral 2T oil or 2T mineral/Synthetic blend DO NOT be tempted to throw in even a capful of R30 into your mix and these products are polar, do not mix and will form terrible black sticky deposits once they come into contact with each other. Now that I think of it this could be the cause of some problems riders experienced in the past by trying to make their own shandies, for reasons to either fortify the film strength of their mineral oil or to make nice fumes.
Other good leading brands to look at are ELF (now owned by Total France) and Rock Oil (UK) including locally blended Shell VSX2 to name a few more.
Trials Maico?? I will have to look at one, never seen one before.
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better add me to the list,(my memory just kicked in!,too many late nites in the shed ;)),the last dregs of my Motul 800 was 'lumpy",i just thought (at the time) it was my imagination/aeration effect when i shook the bottle?,was running 40-1,just pulled barrell off,theres still oil in the crankcases,piston just wiped clean of oily carbon,probably down too the fact it just does 3 lap races on dirt??, :P
ps chucked my empty too,(oops ::))
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Mick can you please post an image of the piston.
Or send the jpg file to me and I will do it.
Can you please tell us how long it was in the motor, maintenance, fuel used .......
Thanks
Ji
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Firko you have good mates who would go out and buy oil for you. Maybe you bought the Bourbon or the meat
Actually you're pretty close to the truth....it was Jamaican rum. I'll look into those castor alternatives, especially the Maxima 927. A friend uses it in his TZ 350 classic road racer and swears by it. There's that word of mouth thing again ;DTrials Maico?? I will have to look at one, never seen one before.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cd6%20130.jpg)
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I just ordered the Maxima Super M injector oil from a bike shop.
I was advised that it should be here Thursday this week and they could not tell me how much it is going to cost me until it gets here. I guess this is so they can add in any courier fees.
This is a lot of work to get pre mix oil I hope it is worth it.
I remember a story Don Newell told me.
My memory of what was fact is sketchy but this is how the story went.
Don told me that he always used Castrol 2T or one of their oils at 20:1
in all his bikes since he first through a leg over a saddle.
A few years back one of the modern oil companies gave him a litre of you beauty oil that would virtually service his engine.
Don thought like most of us "I can not wait to give it a go"
At the first race meet he seized his engine.
He then vowed never to stray again.
Not really scientific but this also adds to why riders don't buy some oils.
Ji
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Firko - who owns the YZ at the back of the photo there?
ta
Rossco
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Not really scientific but this also adds to why riders don't buy some oils.
I had the same experience as Don Newell with some gloop called 'Gary Jones Racing Oil' Blair Harley told us it was the ants pants but we found (too late) that it seperated in the fuel if you didn't keep shaking the can. I had one of my two ever seizures using the shit and 30 years later I'm still shitty about it. The other seize came using Belray MC1 and I never used it again either. Castrol TT and TTS never ever let me down.
Firko - who owns the YZ at the back of the photo there?
Ross, my mate Paul Chippendale owns it, a YZ360 B (But you knew that didn't you ) ;).
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Ross - Not Some tossa from Wa then ?
Hey Short shift -
Can you mix Castor/Synthetics such as the Maxima Castor 927, Shell Advance Racing M or Silkolene Pro KR2 with yourmormal 2T mineral/Synthetic blendS like tts etc. Does the labels actual say its synthetic in the ingredient brakedowns on the back ( as opposed to the marketing on the front). My last bottle was shell something mineral and is red fluid, assumeng its just straight mineral, im i right in understanding thats it sould only ever come in contact with another mineral oil , or at worst a mineral synthetic blend ?
I tend to stick to the same oil but last time i was out sticks, local shop only had one choice i would use, so when it runs out ill go back but in the meantime the TM has a bottle premix and neds topping up. just a thought.
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thanks Firko - for a bike there weren't many of they keep popping up :D
Freaky - what can I say eh!
cheers
Rossco
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I found an interesting paragraph in my Maico shop manual which may be relevant.
" New engine oil shall be mixed 1 part oil to 20 parts gasoline; ie, one quart of two cycle oil to 5 gallons of gasoline for each race day. The gasoline must be above 95 octane. The engine will not get adequate lubrication with the "super" (their emphasis) motorcycle two cycle oils that the makers recommend at 25:1, 32:1 or even 40:1.
There is not enough oil in these lean mixtures to properly lubricate the engine."
I use a modern mineral/synthetic blend, but stick to the ratios I used years ago, when I never had an engine failure or premature wear.
I'm happy to go on the manufacturers recommendations.
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Ajay is quiet right in that Ethanol is part of the Hydrocarbon family but the difference that I was making is that it is part of the Alcohol family like Methanol or Methylated Spirits largely distilled from plant life rather than fossil fuels (However research is being conducted to produce ethanol out of landfill gas, coal seam gas and other natural gases), and not part of the other family of Hydrocarbon families which make up our normal transport fuels and lubricating oils.
By the way, Methylated Spirits IS Ethanol, just not in a 100% pure form. It actually has a mild poison added when being made to stop people buying it and drinking it. ;)
However, the origin of the Hydrocarbon is not relevant in any form to the discussion here is it? Or is it? ???
Because of course fossil fuels (sometimes also called mineral oils) are sourced from plant life initially, albeit much longer ago than say making ethanol from sugar cane. Indeed one of the problems with "natural" mineral oils is that they inherently retain impurities from the process of their formation, unlike truly syntheic (or to be more correct Synthesised) fuels and oils. The traces of impurities in mineral oils is one reason why Synthetic Oils exist - they are by definition purer and less likely to have undesireable side effects due to impurities.
That is why, after many years of trying to imply that Synthetic oils were evil and problematic, a major oil manufacturer decided to join the club and market a Synthetic oil... ::)
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I do feel this discussion needs to move along.
I have read quite a few test results from varying interest groups in the motocross industry about two stroke piston seizure. All come to the same conclusion which should be discussed here so all riders realise the state that is required for piston seizure.
There are quite a few ways a piston can be induced to lock in the sleeve but essentially they all stem from the same cause, Over heating.
The piston is made of aluminium which has a large thermal expansion rate. The hotter it becomes the larger it grows, while the sleeve is made from lets say cast iron which is much more stable.
This topic has breezed over the fact that the pre-mix oil is a coolant that helps stabilise and reduce heat. How does it do that.
First I would say being a lubricant it reduces friction and thus the associated heat.
Second if there is enough of it and it is properly vaporised it should act like a heat absorber as it comes into contact with moving parts and then removes this shared heat as it is forced out the exhaust port.
This said does more pre-mix oil stop piston seizure.
I believe No, or may be, but this is the wrong way to think about this issue.
This statement will get quite a reaction I am sure, but before I am branded a heretic and a know nothing let me finish.
The most universal fact to prevent piston seizure is air to fuel ratio
If you run your engine to lean it will seize!
The fuel is not only the dynamite that turns over your engine but it is also the coolant.
To much air in the combustion chamber will super heat expanding the piston or melting it to the point of lock up.
If you feed your engine 20:1 pre-mix but run the carb to lean the piston will seize.
The air to fuel ratio is independent of the pre-mix ratio.
Okay I am done for now, start the abuse and we can all study this theory.
Ji
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Many people increase the oil to fuel ratio, expecting this to cure seizure/overheating problems, not realising that this in itself will cause a leaner fuel/air ratio and make things worse, unless main jet changes are made.
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Freakshow, TTS is NOT a blend of mineral oil and synthetic oil, it is a synthetic ester with some Poly-Iso-Butene (PIB) as a film strength provider and I will discuss this tremendous additive in a moment. (It also lists PIB as an ingredient in the Maxima data sheet, but not all manufacturers like to list it, why hide it?) In the Power TTS data sheet as it is called today (Even Castrol has to resort to wanky titles for its product today to compete with all the "Me Too's" that came out after it) mentions the claim, "Creates a tough, heat reactive layer of protection" well that is this PIB providing that. What is it? It is the product that makes Post-It notes sticky/adhesive, used in cosmetics, industrial adhesives and is also a major ingredient in chewing gum to make it stringy. Also used as cable filler for insulating Optus and Foxtel cables due to its flexibility. The guy who invented PIB did it by accident in the 3M lab Even though it was a 3M invention the applications were then applied to Post it notes by this person and hasnt worked a day in his life after that I would presume.
It is a synthetically derived heavy "water white" low toxic, practically ashless lubricating base material that does away with the old Bright Stock of yesteryear that created such carbon problems for us. It is used in grease to make it tacky and stringy like the blue wheel bearing grease that is popular. It is also used in Chain oil formulations to add "tack" that you see between the sprockets and chain when you spin your back wheel and in Chain Bar oils for your Chain Saw at 1-2% to add stringyness . So you dont need much to add lubricity and adhesion to metal.
Castrol were clever as due to the timing of the launch of TTS it swung over a large proportion of its R30/40 users to this product. It was developed by Castrol UK with help from Castrol France of which I dispel some further data at the end to help readers understand the background development to the products they buy.
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/printsectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9021708&contentId=7040552
So in regards to your question, why would you want to mix these different type of oils together? There is no point. You need to control your premixes and never to get any standard mineral oil formulations (ie: Castrol Activ 2T replaced Castrol TT that Alexander Graham Bell also swore by, I will post the icon at the end) touch a pure organic Castor or Castor/Synthetic blend as it will create miscibility issues, precipitation of additves and incompatible base fluids from your mixture leading to black sludge in your fuel tank & lines, carb and reeds. I stuffed up my fathers TS185 when I was 14 when I dumped R30 on top of the TT in the oil tank under the seat and we had to buy a new oil tank and send the bike to the dealer to get its carb overhauled including the rotary valve replaced. Our neighbour had to drive the trailer to pick the bike up that was stopped on the Fwy when he was coming home from work. This was after coming back from the Longwarry MX and I had to relive this smell. I can still recall the kick in the butt from that!! Was he shitty!!
It is the same deposits you get when some of your glycol coolant comes in contact with your engine oil when you blow a head gasket. You need to drain the sump immediately. So even in your late model water cooled 2 or 4 stroke bike never let the coolant leak into the sump esp if it contains Ethylene Glycol.
So when you buy something in a bottle add that to fuel in the right amounts and dont put anything else in there.
The red oil from Shell you had is Shell Advance SX2 that is their semi-synthetic mineral oil 75% and 25% POE blend. I have a bottle of that from the servo in my chain saw box that i run in the saws/brushcutters at 25:1. And yes it is compatible with everything except products that contain castor oil.
One of the things that annoy me is the continued play on words. Semi Synthetic to me if half mineral and half Synthetic and that is what you expect to be paying for. Instead it is really a 75/25 or 70/30 blend and that is why some more larger multinational oil companies refer to the product as "Synthetic Fortified" not to mislead the buyer as part of their Code of Ethics. This last definition could mean 10% for all we know but is not misleading as "Semi" which means Half of something.
I want to also briefly discuss now some of the nomenclature that is written on the bottle. As 2 stroke air-cooled bike owners we need to make sure the oil meets API TC. This means the oil is formulated for air-cooled engines that get very hot. The specification calls for high temp oxidation resisitance for service in these engines. Do not use any Marine 2T oils with a TCW-3 specification as the oil is not only diluted with solvent to make it mix easier for outboards but has hig temperature performance. Do not be fooled that a water cooled 2 (or 4) stroke dirt bike runs cool like an outboard. It overheats worse in many cases than an air-cooled bike esp in slow running and some uphills. I am personally not a fan of watercooled dirtbikes and am amazed that no one manufactured bikes with a cowled or shrouded air cooled fan forced engine like you have on a chain saw or brushcutter! Ok you wouldnt see those horny barrell fins on your Maico sticking out at you and this is perhaps where the engineering department lost to the design department. Form won over function.
I said I would help people wade through the mystery of the products they purchase. In Europe there are only 2 major Synthetic Ester base oil refineries, one in France called Nyco http://www.nyco.fr/content.asp?IDR=114273&IDR2=114290 and the other in Finland called Neste'. Nyco in their wisdom decided to value add some years ago and blend in house world class 2 & 4T oils. Nyco do not sell their own branded products to the public either retail or wholesale. You will never see the Nyco brand on the shelves in motorcycle shops. But they will sell their products to other major suppliers that then label it under their own name and distribute it all the way down to the end user which is yourselves. Why try to reinvent the wheel, invest in R&D and blending facilities when someone has already done the hard work, simply buy a fully formulated product that works, that comes to you packaged, labelled and proven to work and spend your efforts in marketing, distribution and sponsorship. Have a look at where your current oil comes from (Made in EU, etc) and I think you can work out the rest.
Here is the link off Luke's Skydrive to A. Graham Bells book and in Chapter 8 under Lubrication and Cooling, scroll to Page 159. It also discusses ceramic coating on page 164.
Other chapters in the book are worth reading and have helped me get a better understanding of 2 stroke tuning and solving issues with my own bikes.
http://cid-407d7ef0965d3991.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Pure%20Enduro/Two-Stroke%20Manuals/performance-tuning-graham-bell.pdf
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Mike, Stick to what has been working for you, you are on the right track, but always have your ears open to look at other ideas and think before you deviate from what your current procedure is.
Alister, Metho is nowadays "denatured" with 2% Acetone so people do not drink it. It was common before the Government made this regulation that you could walk into someones home up to the early 80's and find a bottle of Methylated Spirits in the fridge.
Mineral oils derived through hydrocracking in an oil refinery contain many unwanted or undesired ingredients such as wax that stops an oil flowing at low temperature. A synthetic oil can be custom refined to what the chemist want it to come out as by adding or subtracting a variety of gases and other ingredients over a 15-20 stage process (hence its expense) A synthetic oil has no wax, and no need for VI improvers to add to its natural wide viscosity range (ie: to make it a 10W/40)..........it already has these properties so more room for oil than addtives.
JiGantor is right, we need to get back on track, and in this thread I am happy that many new issues have been raised that even i would not have guesses would be relevant. Let me deal with each issue.
You can add as much oil to a 2T premix as you want to, but if your jetting is too lean your bike will overheat or not start in the first place. I remember engine tests we conducted where there was adequate oil in the piston/cylinder interface but due to the overheating caused by "Enleanment" (Now there is a term that not many readers would have heard of) and it is the accurate term to describe the situation we are looking at now where the heat generated leading to metal expansion of the piston reducing the gap and metal to metal contact ensued leading to seizure. Enough oil was there but it was ineffective to prevent friction from the expanding metals.
I think that, and I welcome feedback on this thought, if you are running 20:1 which is a good amount of oil for the engine, BUT your jetting was madly too lean, wouldnt you suffer first from detonation or holed pistons BEFORE suffering a bore seizure or engine bearing failure?? Its been a long day and I cannot nut this out........
In a 2 stroke (as against a 4 stroke that is splash, mist and pressure lubricated) the jetting determines how much oil is carried through as well. It is directly correlated to the jetting, so we need to ensure that the jetting is accurate for the best running of the engine, and this of course is done by riding the bike and doing all the variuos throttle and acceleration tests (that is beyond the scope of this thread).
As we all would have realised, once we achieved the optimum jetting we also had optimum lubrication, as long as we were not mixing at say 100:1. I found that as I had to enrichen my bikes to get more power from more fuel that could be used by the engine i feel that some of that power increase was becuase of the extra oil going through the engine. It sure made less mechanical noise than before.
The way Jigantor describes the process of oil working as a heat exchange medium is excellent and accurate and I dont need to add to that further.
I did touch on this where in 2 stroke bikes under 200c (well any high RPM 4 strokes as well) the oils has many jobs and its main function in a revving 125 MX bike or a screaming 100cc Go-Kart is that of a coolant. The oil is definatley lubricating but it is not its main result of being there and what we need to take into consideration is something called "Piston Speed" or the general rotation speed of a bearing.
For example under the Laws of Lubrication Theory the higher the speeds or RPM the lighter the Lubricant must be to stop "churning", drag and overheating caused by these 2 events. In any piece of equipment, whether it is an Industrial high speed reducer or a McLaren Formula 1 engine the oils needs to be very light. In this case McLaren use a <<0W motor oil (7Cst @ 40c............the 2 stroke oils that i have been discussing like TTS, SuperM Injector are around 40-50CST @ 40) that is almost as light as diesel fuel to prevent power/performance losses associated with drag and churning. The oil must flow through the engine parts extremely quick by the oil pump, then be forced through the oil filter and then forced through the oil cooler and back again. The oil in this engine if not cooled will boil away and/or "crack" itself into other fractions like in an oil refinery. I saw figures once where the oil sump/tank volume down the main straight goes through this process around 3 times a second!! The light oils at these high speeds around 14,000-15,000RPM works as a coolant releasing maximum power. An oil cannot stay hanging around between the engine parts for long periods as it will break down through overheating caused by drag which then causes friction (and a power loss followed by a likely nipup and seizure and end of the race)
In our humble 2 stroke engine we have no oil pump, oil cooler or oil filter (or air cooler like an intercooler)..........we have nothing!! The way around this is to run adequate amounts of oil which we can only offer our engines by putting enough of it in the fuel in the first place. Ensure the oil is of a acceptable viscosity which I have discussed in detail at the very beginning of this thread by examining some popular oils in the market. Then jet accordingly to this mix.
All the factors of the right amount of oil at the right viscosity will then work as a coolant (as well as a cleaner and lubricant) in your motor. As the revs rise the coolant functions increases and lubricating function decreases. When the engine is at low revs the rotating engine parts are stopping and starting and clanging against themselves requiring the oil to cushion against these blows. The crankpin in Harleys for instance gets a hammering at idle or when the rider lugs it along in the wrong gear. Until at high revs the multiple combustion events create a hell of a lot of heat where the cooling system via fins or water jackets remove heat but from the piston wall and bearing interfaces the oil is the heat exchange medium that carrys away the heat eventually out the exhaust, and to be replenished by new oil coming into the engine from the reeds (or piston port). The oil that comes out eventually from your silencer is very hot both from combustion heat and engine heat it absorbed from the metal parts. At high engine speeds much of this oil will be so hot that it will remain in the gas stream due to the temperature and gas speed and not adhere to your exhaust.
So to summarise by looking at JiGantor's question if more oil prevents piston seizure, the answer is if your jetting is too lean it will not. If jetting is right it will decrease the incidence of seizures via lubrication (keeping the metals parts apart) and cooling through heat exchange.
You also mention if the fuel can act as the coolant, yes it does that job to a certain degree when passing through the bearings but it is the right amount of oil in this fuelmix that will carry away the heat. It is not in the interests of the engine that its fuel charge enters the combustion space (For 4 strokes as well) at too high a temperature as this will lead to air density issues AND then be a contributor to detonation/preignition. It is why you got to keep your fuel tins out of the sun. Some racers keep their fuel inaa large esky with dry ice.
The right amount of oil (or more oil) in the premix will lessen this risk of fuel heating up through friction and cool fuel charges are denser and will make more power as more gas is able to enter a given space in a given time. It is why in a Turbo-Diesel (OK and petrols!) you have an intercooler to cool the air charge to eventually cool the entire fuel air mist before it is ignited. Its main purpose is to ensure the most amount of air is allowed in that given stroke. Then the compressing mixture heats up and goes bang. In our 2 strokes the fuelair mix unfortunatley has to pass through the hot crankcasespaces and intact tracts where it is heated.
One trick, (and I bring up the issue of coatings) is that tuners will ceramic coat the intact tracts of the 2 stroke cylinder to prevent the fuel charge from being heated too much from the hot aluminium.
(In one example when I used to work in the marine department, to illustrate the hostile environment inside your crankcase, a customer on a huge container ship had a crankcase explosion in his large 2 stroke diesel (that is totally different to a 2 stroke petrol engine!) where one of the big end bearings got so hot they ignited the oil vapours and mist in the air spaces blowing the inspection covers off, so crancase heat is detrimental to 2 stroke performance.....so throw your beer out and put your fuel in.) In a 4 stroke engine the fuel charge only goes through a short area of hot inlet tract where it gets constantly bombarded by cool incoming fuel air. Direct fuel injection will cure all that but that is 30 years ahead of the bikes we ride, where the 2 stroke fuel is injected directly into the cylinder avoiding all these challenges i discussed.
So fuelair mixtures passed into an engine at the right jetting will not be too lean to overheat the final ignition event by having excessive air in it.
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Shortshift your posts are great and extremely enlightening, but from a magazine editors or for that matter a magazine readers point of view way to technical. I can see why a magazine editor would not publish this article.
First look at how many words you have used to explain your point of view.
Second look at how much disbelief you have encountered and last but most importantly
Third the oil companies pay for adds in the magazines and would not be to keen to see the sorts of things you are promoting. This could lead to loss of income for said magazine.
That said it should be published but I know it never will be.
Ji
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Fuel is NOT the coolant the metal is the coolant. Piston wall temps are usually 200deg C (the outer skin of the crown is probably 400deg C) the temp at which unburt fuel self ignites in a combustion chamber is around 900deg C How can fuel cool anything when suspended in air?. Crankcase temps are only 70-80 deg C and won't 'expand' gasses as much as what is imagined.
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The problem is and I know this is another topic and I don't want to sidetrack this topic with another one but most riders don't know how to do a spark plug test to establish the correct jetting. So some will read this thread and say I will use 20:1 mix from now on and my bike will be more powerful, more cleaner and more cooler.
After all the members that read this topic or a magazine article about this topic are looking for an answer that relates to their situation in terms that they can relate.
How many members would have the facilities, time and knowledge to jet a two stroke bike properly.
Thus the average rider will just pour more oil into their fuel and see how she goes.
This can lead to a lean air to fuel mix and seizure.
After seeing the maintenance the average racer does on his bike this added oil could be the wrong advice and lead to more riders using less oil in their fuel.
Ji
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Lozza, if I can offer this explanation perhaps to your interesting point.
Fuel/Petrol/Gasoline is a low flash point aromatic solvent first and foremost, (like a commercial refrigerant such as Freon, Ammonia, or liquid Propane that are also solvents, any fridge or HVAC mechanics on this forum?) and because of that like any solvent when it turns from a liquid to a gas it absorbs heat in the cooling process (albeit a very small way in a 2 stroke engine).
In this case we are not "adding" cold (Cryogenics), we are "removing" heat (refridgeration) via this evaporation phase of the fuel. It is why in a refridgeration system you have what is called the evaporators (after the gas is compressed by the compressor or runs through a condensor to bring the gas back to a liquid) where the compressed gas (solvent) is liquified/condensed and then allowed to expand in the Evaporator absorbing the heat that is inside the coolroom. I guess that our coolroom in this case is our crankcase!?! and in place of a recirculatory refridgerant gas system we have a (total loss system) where constant supply of new fuel air mixture (solvent in its gaseous phase) coming in taking what little waste heat it can absorb from engine internals and then finally ending up in the combustion chamber for burning..........but its affects are very minor, and the oil certainly does the job of heat exchange much more effectively. What is the definition of the process of cooling? heat exchange!
But in our engines (unlike a true refridgeration system) we do not raise the pressure of the fuel charge via turbo or supercharging to make it more dense that would almost supercool the incoming fuel charge when it finally expands from a very dense gas to a pure gas phase at around atmospheric pressure in a more profound way. (A simple principle of the vapour absorbtion cycle in a refridgeration system I believe happens in a very small way in 2 & 4 stroke spark ignition engines)
Ideally we also would want the metal of the engine to offer some heat exchange to the gas charge but I feel the metal of the cylinder is busy with constantly absorbing combustion heat and exchanging it into the atmosphere.
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yes shortshifts post are long but if you really switch on and read it all carefully you will learn something, well i have. too much info is far better than being too short and brief leaving the reader guessing and having to ask a lot of questions.
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Ji-gantor, the oil case is only one part of the equation and as you say, the rider must take responsibility and carry out the task of jetting his bike properly only AFTER he has selected his fuel/oil ratio first. No point in trying to fix overheating with more oil, it will only lean out the mixture and make it worse.
I spent hours getting my bikes jetted right. I am more pedantic than anyone. Went out and bought $40 of jets and got it right and transformed the machine. Only ended up using maybe $15 of those jets but that is the way it is. I wish I had someone teach me carb jetting when I was 18.
There are dozens of online jetting guides for bikes that readers can access. They also discuss Spark Plug reading but try to get a modern one that wasnt written in the leaded fuel era.
I feel that it is up the rider and bike owner if he wants to ride a well tuned bike to make the effort to invest "in the facilities, time and knowledge" like thousands of us have done.
It is like owning a pet, if you dont have the capacity and care about learning how to care for it then you shouldnt own one.
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After all the members that read this topic or a magazine article about this topic are looking for an answer that relates to their situation in terms that they can relate.
How many members would have the facilities, time and knowledge to jet a two stroke bike properly.
Thus the average rider will just pour more oil into their fuel and see how she goes.
This can lead to a lean air to fuel mix and seizure.
Thats why we are average rider's. But all this information that you and all forum members provide can only help. I have read the VMX article and I have read this thread, and now this average rider will go to the shed and apply the information provided. But it will take a lot more convincing to get me off 25:1 mix it worked in my YZ80E when I was 12, and its working in my 78 RM400, with Castrol TTS it was Castrol TT back in 78.
Hotelmoto
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As knowledgable as Shortshift obviously is on the slippery stuff, my eyes are glazing over and I'm going into information overload. There comes a time in an old blokes life when too much information is...errr, too much information. I've learned enough to get me through without nipping the old Maico up so I'll wander off and leave the topic to you techno junkies.
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good LONG read shortshift you have taught us all alot about oils,now we are armed with this knowledge alot of people seem confused about how to jet to adviod a seiza,an old tuner told me the best way was start out way rich and come down till it runs right and ive never had a problem following his advice maybe we need a carb masterclass for the people that dont understand how the different slide openings eg fully open 3/4 1/2 1/4 idle and what jets there using at these settings
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Starting rich is the ONLY way to go Matt. HERE (http://www.iwt.com.au/mikunicarb.htm) is a good carburetor tuning manual, from me old mate Ian in SA.
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Okay if I want to test the theory that more than 40:1 oil pre-mix will produce significantly more horse power how can I do this.
Well I guess the best way is to pay a lot of money and have the bike dynode.
The second way that is quite a bit cheaper would be to fill the tank with 40:1 mix and run the bike for 30 minutes, stop the engine, remove the plug and do a compression test. Then fill the tank with 25:1 mix, run the engine for 30 minutes, stop the engine, remove the plug and do another compression test.
The first reading should be significantly lower than the second if this theory is correct. If the readings are only different by a small amount say less than 10% is it worth while changing for the horse power gain. This test has nothing to do with anti-ware or cooling just horse power gain. This test does not take into account the horse power loss due to increased oil in the crankcase.
After the nationals I will conduct this myth busting test and report back.
Ji
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Alex , I have just finished building a new motor and have got my jetting right ( to my satisfaction that is )
Give me a few months and I will pull the piston out after running on 20-1 motul 710.
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Okay if I want to test the theory that more than 40:1 oil pre-mix will produce significantly more horse power how can I do this.
Well I guess the best way is to pay a lot of money and have the bike dynode.
The second way that is quite a bit cheaper would be to fill the tank with 40:1 mix and run the bike for 30 minutes, stop the engine, remove the plug and do a compression test. Then fill the tank with 25:1 mix, run the engine for 30 minutes, stop the engine, remove the plug and do another compression test.
The first reading should be significantly lower than the second if this theory is correct. If the readings are only different by a small amount say less than 10% is it worth while changing for the horse power gain.
Huh?
Among other things, more oil means/is supposed to mean:
Increased heat transfer, allowing more agressive tuning;
More lubrication, meaning less losses to parasitic drag.
Neither of these are particularly related to compression readings.
Further, are you going to be able to ride the bike consistantly for an hour?
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I'm about to replace a 15 hr piston and ring set from a ktm 50 sx, spent it's whole life at 15000 rpm on r30 at 50:1.
Will fit new piston and run castrol tts at 25:1 and see how it looks at 15 hrs.
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Hotelmoto, Do you recall when Castrol TTS was first launched in the early 80's in that beautiful 2 litre half rectangular tall metal can with the 1st class British green paint job on it and the red pull out easy pour spout? (If anyone still has one in their collection if they can post a photo of it)
It was the right technology, at the right time, in the right packaging, at a reasonable price by a brand name that already had credibility in the motorcycle market. It sold like crazy all over the world, and it was and still is a top product that in many cases is unequalled in its class. (About the same time it already bought out complimentary GPS 20W/50 and R-Synthetic 15W/50 for 4 strokes, and these products were locally blended with imported ingredients of course) And there was hardly any competition at the time with this product unlike today when the rider becomes mesmerised when he walks into a bike shop. In the 80's just the Castrol logo alone was worth A$350 Million in goodwill .
JiGantor (Adam Savage!) perhaps the "best" way I think is to conduct seat of the pants testing that translates to real world ridability. We can open our wallets, or sell our car, to pay for someone's rolling dyno (Like Jennings did with Jerry Branchs Dynoroom). I have used a Dyno years ago for roadrace bikes and they are not good for the engine, the crankshafts and pins suffer under prolonged use from the resistance and reverse torque from the dyno. I am not sure if you can use MX type tyres on a Dyno......I heard it will cause slippage from knob curl (I was going to say knob bend over) not allowing full HP to be applied to the dyno resulting in inaccurate readouts. They analyse your exhaust gas and allow jet changes and measure HP & torque and can have benefits but track testing was our best guage.
Conducting a compression test between oil ratios I am not sure will offer any figures that can be used conclusively. You are ineffect doubling the amount of oil by going to near 20:1. In theory you should show a greater cranking compression figure but not by too much. A hot engine with your throttle held wide open. It doesnt measure HP gains from reduced friction (see my extract below). More oil seals the engine up like you wouldnt believe. I was at my tuners shop today to inspect some racing outboards I am having built and we decided to run 20:1 in these after running 20:1 in the previous engine. Most racers traditionally run 30-40:1 in our class (F2 Tunnelboats) and some are starting to go richer from what US and UK winning teams are doing. We have EFI and O2 sensors so changes are made automatically to fuel delivery. The ECU and fuel can be changed further on the Mercury laptop. My tuner today said to me more oil will offer us a greater blast from out of the corners because the bores will be better sealed and offer snappier acceleration from reduced blowby. "20:1 is like an extra 20 thou off the barrel"
We suffered from a fall in power when running leaner oil ratios out of the turn. Even his other customers like the SLSC boats obtain better power running more oil (25:1) than the 50:1 recommended by Tohatsu (Most SLSC' s use this brand, they are the best engine under 30HP).
A10% compression increase is like going from a typical 185PSI to around 203PSI and any tuner will tell you that is significant and it is like taking perhaps 15-20 thou off the head.
What needs to be done is to mix a batch of 20:1 (10 litres + 500ml oil) and run it. You may find two things shortly after your engine gets its 20:1 tthroughout it. An increase in power and torque across the rev range, OR signs of leaness where you need to raise the needle by lowering the clip position. This helped me as I write below. You wont need to touch your pilot jet, perhaps fiddle with the air screw. I wouldnt worry about the main jet for now as you are testing the midrange, later maybe go a jet higher. You can test the main jet for correctness via the variuos methods of accelerating and closing the throttle to see if you get acceleration (run on) or deceleration. (Read the jetting guide offered by Lozza that should explain this)
Below is an extract from a ride report I put in the Vinduro section last year which discusses what proper jetting can do for you (Even by running 102 Octane race gas it did not stop the severe detonation till I fixed the jetting.......do not try to fix detonation by simply going to higher octane fuel!! :-
"The course wound over the undulating forested hills for a 16KM loop of single track. The day before I made the error of lowering my jet needle to the lowest point after reading one of the US mag articles in an attempt to fix the poor midrange and lack of power. The bike on the first lap detonated severely and of course the transition from different throttle openings was poor with the bike stuttering and breaking up when trying to wind it out. I was not very happy and thought something major is wrong with the engine or stators whatever. At one stage I thought the bike would quit as it sounded like little men in the head with tiny hammers smashing away.
I had one guy come up behind me and I let him pass me and he was on a 75'DT250 with trials tyres and he zigged zag fantastically through the forest as his centre of gravity was very low to the ground. I caught up to him on a greasy hill and overtook him again.
So, I came back to the pits after my first lap and was considering just throwing the bike back up onto the trailer and calling it quits for the day.
After Eugene (owns same model bike) came back I told him how bad my bike ran so he took it up the road for a spin and came back and said the bike doesnt go nowhere as crisp and nice as his. "Just totally different" shaking his head. "Must be all carboned up inside!"
Eugene and his workmates were camped next to me and Chris an expat New Zealander who came along to see what this Vinduro thing was all about (He is restoring a 81KDX175 (That lunched its bottom end as he ran 50:1 in it in another event 3 months later), said that my carb was running way too lean and that i shouldnt have lowered the needle so much. He said raise the needle to the second notch from the lowest postion and "also try winding out the idle screw even up to 3.5 turns from closed, the 1.5 turns is only the factory setting". So I pulled it apart and did that (I just turned the screw out 2 turns), started the bike and it was an entirley new machine from that moment onwards. It wound out crisply and buzzed all the way to the top end that it has never done before. No detonation, no running on after closing the throttle (reed flutter) and I came back and said it was a new bike. No more staggering, popping and crackling, just a smooth clean rise in revs. I was wrapt! I might take it to its highest setting and see if it gets better or worse (I have since done that it goes even better). I will also now reduce the main jet size from the 310 back to the stock 300 or even the 290 (which came with the bike when i got it) as recommended in one of the mag tests as i was enriching the wrong circuit. It should pull even cleaner. (now run a 280 but will also test a 290 at this weekends event)
I was now anxiuos to get back out onto the track for my 2nd run. I would go out with Chris on Eugenes 400 when Peter came back after going for a lap on it. (I will uploade some pics of Pete physically stuffed and bogged in the special test gully section)
At this point it started to rain again but neither of us cared (least the New Zealander from Dunedin who would mostly ride in the rain and snow) and we set off for the checkpoint and took off up the track and I just left it in 3rd gear (and as the Trail and Trail article once said, leave it in 3rd gear and use it like an automatic) and this is what i did. It just accelerated away from low revs and pulled like my old XR350's even better now that i look back! I was just so happy, with the engine zapping on with no issues. The corners came up far too quick and I had to really concentrate 100% with no mind wandering allowed or it was into a tree. With all the other mods I have done to the engine and exhaust the bike had way too much wasted power now I thought. I will never use it all unless I am out in a desert race. I never touched 4th and 5th as it was a moderate tight to open terrain and now top gear WOT would be frightening. Just twist the grip before the mudholes and ruts and through you go without any worry as before it would hesitate and you couldnt get power on in that instant when you came across an obstacle unexpectedly."
Going from the bottom setting of the needle to the top is a VERY big difference and my bike loved it, it was its ideal setting. The magazine article did not apply to my bike. And it did not take an hour of riding it was instantaneouos. I know when switching oil ratios will take a bit longer. I think the test bike back in 1980 ran MC-1 @ 50:1 .
As a result not only was the fuel/air mixture richer that produced great gobs of power and torque but it was being lubricated better with more oil going through. It also did not smoke any more than before. I would have loved the previous owner to have ridden the bike again.
The moral of this story is learn to jet your bike right. It may be the transformation your bike needs. Ask someone who knows bikes better than you ride it for you and take their advice as a guide.
Lozza, 710 @ 20:1 sounds good as long as the jetting is spot on regardless of the bike. As a few have said start rich and work down. I spoke to a desert racer who raced the Finke and Mt Ebenezer and due to the dryness of the West QLD desert air they jetted very rich to the point where the bike "blubbers" and then worked back.
From some other recent comments it is apparent that there is demand by other readers for information on oils and fuels, including the important task of jetting. Why have so many people been so shy and laidback to not ask for this information in the past.
I have my own questions like why do reeds "flutter" when the jetting is lean? It makes that "Ung Ung Ung" sounds when you back off the throttle and the engine runs on. It makes it then hard to corner properly. What causes that and what goes on in the crankcases to cause that?...........also what is the difference between your standard metal reeds, Boyeson reeds and the latest Carbon fibre reeds as to why one produces either better throttle response, power& torque or all 3 things?
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Firstly HP isn't 'lost in the cranckcase because of oil in there. HP is lost through incorrect jetting and ignition on a standard bike and enhanced with removing in efficiencies and optimising jetting and ignition on a modified engine.Then that all must work with the gearbox.
Other than a dyno, in an hour you could make 10 changes and make 30 pulls, which is a much more meaningful test. If you got an expert rider who could lap within 0.25sec each lap for 30mins that would reveal something.
Reeds flutter with lean jetting ??? Exactly how can you determine reeds are fluttering? There are several causes of reed flutter none are remotely related to jetting.
Reeds are governed by Young's Modulus or their elasticity, they all have a resonance frequency and a stiffness modulus which basicaly means one is stiffer than the other. Reeds were in the beginning stainless steel which have high stiffness and high weight.Then came fibreglass much lower weight and lower stiffness finally carbon fibre even lower weight and lower stiffness.Lower stiffness and lower weight (some one con correct me here ) gives a higher resonant frequency which in theory gives higher rpm before the reed flutters, steel is the opposite.Carbon gives the best of both worlds being light so less inertia is required to lift the petal and resistant to resonance,only drawback is they fatigue a bit faster( read after 1 season they are not a snappy as when first installed). Boyensen's geez don't start me, the top reed opens easily and the bottom reed barely moves, as rpm rises the top reed (especialy with stops removed) flapps uncontrolably and the bottom reed still barely moves. Worst of both worlds. Noted RD tuner Ron Chinoy from India repeated the Robert Fleck QUB tests and found this to be true from strobing a running engine at various rpm with a sight glass in the reed cavity.
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what engine was this done on? just because the bottom petal didnt move in this one? test on one? make and model bike doesent necesarily mean the bottom petal stays still in every engine. Im sure i have said this before but im sure that the designers of Boyesens did heaps of testing back then and if they were really crap and the bottom petal didnt move, then they would be no better than the stock single stage petals. If they were that crap im sure 1000's of people wouldnt buy them and would stick with standard ones. I just dont get it.
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"Noted RD tuner" is giving you a small hint, Robert Fleck's comprehensive test was done on a early 90's YZ 250. The bit you don't get is Boyensen was in business to sell you bits and pieces .Ron and the clever bods at QUB were doing it for the knowledge and understanding. Can you see the difference?Why would the experiment NOT be the same in every engine, a reed is just a one way check valve, than reacts to the positive and negative pressures behind and in front of it.
1000's people bought Kylie Minogue records, and Rubic's cubes but that they are good,it just means clever marketing.
Feel free to explain how a really stiff bottom petal will move when most of the intake velocity will lift the top petal easily ? That's why the dual stage reeds have better bottom end off pipe when intake inertia is low soon as it comes on pipe the gains turn into losses for this very reason. Ill email you the SAE paper if you want.
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One of the most interesting & popular tools Lubrication Engineers have in their kit is the "Flowstick". It is primarily used to compare the viscosities between a new oil and its used oil constituent.
You will see the photo's below that illustrates the use of this simple apparatus. In the real world we put the new oil out of the container (Engine, Gear, Hydraulic, Compressor or Turbine oil) into one side (lower side in photo) and a sample of the used oil into the upper side. We wait till the oil temperatures are the same. We then tip the flowstick up to its predetermined angle and bring it back to the horizontal position when the new oil hits the mark about 3/4 way down the stick. On the used oil side you have other marks that mark a range where the oil is either suitable for further service or is beyond the viscosity limits rendering the oil unsuitable for further service and needs to changed. The oil can then be sent to the lab if desired for further testing (oxidation, particles, solids, contamination with water, fuels, glycols and dozens of other tests depending on the machinery it was used in).
In our case today we also used the flowstick to compare viscosities/flow rates of some popular 2T oils in the market. This follows my discussion early on in the thread when I mentioned viscosities of the oils. This relates to film thicknesses, ability of the oil to be mixed at greater concentrations, and oil migration rates.
I went out and bought some Motul 800 & 710, Bel-Ray Si7, Maxima 927 Castor/Synthetic and Castrol Power 1 TTS. I already had some Alisyn Pro-Power 21 Racing 2T oil that I import with our other US shipments for my own use and offload some of this once a year to prepaid orders from certain customers. (It is currently unheard of in Australia in the bike market except in the marine, PWC and Kart scene.)
I went out to look for Bel-Ray MC-1......couldnt find it anywhere as it was one prime product I needed for this comparison and when I get some I will post the flow tests with it. I went around to 6 bike shops, "Oh no we dont sell MC-1 anymore, most people have gone to using this (pointing to the 800)". "Nah we dont stock it, it was too heavy and hard to mix we have these other BR products if you want". "Why are you using the 710 in your bike it has been thinned down for injector use".............incorrect it hasnt been thinned down it just uses a lighter grade of Ester and perhaps a small concentration of PIB. Another shop I went to I said to the owner I cannot believe you dont have a full range of Maxima here on the stand, "Ahh, Our shop in Frankston sells heaps and always has but up here we dont move much of it" They only had Maxima 4T oils, gear oils, filter oil and Castor 927 as "some guys use it around here" and NO SuperM Injector or Premix!.
One shop where I bought the Si7 and 710 after enquiring what i am doing with the oils the sales assistant went on with a speal how I shouldnt be running 20:1 as you will get fouled spark plugs, deposits, carbon deposits and lots of smoke. Another dude buying parts for his bike heard this and said, "In me ole RM 125 I used Castrol TTS at 50:1 and it ran great, lots of power......if you want more power use less oil as you have more fuel to make power and with more oil you will loose power. I should have used 80:1 for more power." Common misconceptions carried over the decades. I was going to say why use oil at oil then??
Another observation I noticed was the vast differences in merchandising between oil suppliers. Castrol and Shell had very good stands (as the reps are always out on the road calling into servo's and convenience stores) with a complete range of all motorcycle products/cleaners etc. One shop didnt carry Castrol which surprised me. Another had some left over Silkolene Pro 2T (which is very good) and said they lacked support. (I will perhaps make him an offer to clear the last 2 x 4 litre packs)
Out of all the niche suppliers Motul had by far the best merchandising in every shop, then Motrex, ELF, Maxima. Not one shop had a complete range of Bel-Ray products, some had a few of their 4T range (Thumper) but no 2T oils, One had only one of their 2T oils (the Si7 I bought and nothing else), I wanted to actually buy the Bel-Ray H1R (that is slightly heavier than the Si7) but no one had it. One of the best penetrating oils I have ever used is their 6 in 1 All Purpose Lubricant in an aerosol and no-one had it.
Another thing is the prices of the products these days.(f--k......a slab of Vic costs as much as litre of 800/927/Si-7) I found the Shell Advance products to be the most realistic in price/ quality correlation (eg : Advance VSX-2). Castrol was between the niche players and Shell. I didnt go to a Honda dealer as they have also Mobil and KTM stock lots of Motrex due to tie ups with these motorcycle manufacturers. One shop had Castrol A747 for $49.95 a litre! The other leading grades were all 3-4 bucks either way a litre.
(I wont use all these products I purchased myself and will use them as giveaways at this weekends Vinduro with other sponsors items........I will use either the Si7 or TTS for my mixes this weekend at 20:1).
As the old saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words. The first pic shows the flow rates for Motul 800 (red), Motul 710 (Green), Bel-Ray Si-7 (light blue) and Castrol TTS (dark blue). The variation between 800 and 710 are obvious. Si7 and TTS are neck and neck. If we had the BR H1R it would be about a bit more than inch higher than the TTS/Si7 about the same length the 710 was lower than the TTS/Si7 combo but higher.
I wanted to have MC-1 next to 800 and from its specs it would be about half way further up the flowstick barely making it out of the starting gate.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/800710Si7TTS002.jpg)
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/800710Si7TTS001.jpg)
The other photo's show 800 vs Maxima 927 vs Alisyn 21 (used as reference oil only). I had to let the 800 flow a bit longer for illustration purposes as the 927 Castor fortified oil was very thick in comparison. 927 is almost 50% slower flowing than 800. When looking at the data sheets between 800 and 927 they almost share the same viscosity (927 is slightly heavier @ 40c) but their Viscosity Indexes are quite different (Figures that measure an oils resistence in its viscosity/flow rate to temperature change). 135 vs 99. This means the 927 will not flow as easily at the same temperature. Its cold flow properties are not as good. As we discussed in the past a polar compound lke Castor is perhaps unequalled in lubrication film strength at high temps but being polar it has an opposite disadvantage in mixing, storage/shelf life and poorer lubrication reliability in colder operating conditions (ie : premix snowmobile applications).
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/800927PP21003.jpg)
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/800927PP21004.jpg)
It brings up the arguement that Castor fortified oils need to be mixed well and as it says on the label dont mix with fuels lower than Specific Gravities of 0.785 like Avgas 100 being the limit. This is because of rapid oil separation if left still as the high molecular weight of the oil will try to come out of suspension.
When cleaning out the flowsticks between tests I must say the 800 had very high adhesion properties to it which translates to its adherability to engine parts when in use. This has both advantages and disadvantages in a 2 cycle engine as the correct balance must be sought in order to allow oil migration through the engine. The high adhesive nature is also required for powervalves.
Once I get some MC-1 I will do a tri-comparison using 800 & 927. My guess from the specs it will be around the flow or perhaps a little slower than 927.
This has hopefully given the 2 stroke owner a greater appreciation for understanding more what is sitting on the shelf in the bottle and how it may impact (from earlier discussions) on the lubrication of his machine and rationale for recommended ratios by the maker.
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i look forward to hearing how you go with the Belray Si7 at 20 to 1. im just here shaking my head at those things the guys in the shop said to you. ::)
Some people dont realise pretty much all of the old bikes were designed to run on ratios around 20-30 to 1 with light viscosity oils and not the wiz bang MC-1 that was ment for 50 to1 that emerged in the late70's early 80's, so what that guy said about light oils only ment for injector systems is rubbish i reckon.
there should be stocks of Belray MC-1 in the country. Contact - http://www.ficeda.com.au/
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Hi Shortshift,
And you said that nearly $40.00/l for 747 at Super cheap was dear!
Is the Silkolene as good as the Maxima Super M injector?
I told you it is very hard to get Maxima didn't I.
I am still waiting for my oil I ordered last Monday, and there is stock here in Brisbane at the warehouse.
Ji
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for Maxima - http://www.stevecramerproducts.com.au/
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I walk into some bike shops and you wonder if they have too many staff, hence the higher costs on some of their products. Saying that i looked at Autobarn who also stocks Repsol motorcycle oils from Spain which are good which I thought were expensive but now in hindsight I think they were well priced. As was the Castrol. I will see how much they sell a 4 litre of Power 1 TTS.
Ok LWC, I was going to toss a coin in the morning to decide between the Si-7 and the TTS, you made my decision easier, I will use the Si-7 then. it is the same vis.
The Silkolene was this item and it looks fine, I will try to get a spec sheet from the people I know at Fuchs (who distribute it) to check it out further. One of the best airfilter oils I used was from Silkolene many eyars ago, then is disappeared.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/pro2sx_1lt.jpg)
It says : The ultimate fully synthetic 2-stroke off road racing engine oil! Formulated using Electrosyntec Technology to provide exceptional anti-seize properties, usually only associated with castor-based oils. Grand Prix track experience has proven that PRO 2 SX provides the latest racing engines with outstanding load-carrying and cleanliness necessary for full power output, even at high fuel to oil ratios. Combats varnish and carbon deposits and is resistant to ring-sticking and plug fouling, helping to maintain full output for the track life of an engine. Contains special additives to prevent the throttle sticking in wet conditions, a problem experienced with some types of racing carburettors. Forms a highly effective seal between cylinder, piston and ring, enabling the engine to produce optimum power throughout the rev range. Extends engine life and can double crank life in certain applications."
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Whow! :o my head started to spin after the first two pages :D, cut to the short of it what brand and what ratio should I run in a 90 water cooled Honda with stock jetting? ??? . Original Honda recommendation is 20:1
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Hi LWC,
Yes Steve Cramer brings Maxima into this country, but we can not buy from him.
In Queensland there is only one representative for Steve. This rep supplies all the bike shops around Brisbane as orders roll in. No shop that I rang stocks Maxima 2t oil on their shelf and I rang the rep and he also told me that no shop in Brisbane has it on their shelf. So we have to order it and wait for at least a week. We also have to pay, it would seem in my experience the courier fee to get it to the shop.
TTS, 747 or Silkolene is much easier as they are available at Super Cheap.
Ji
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Thanks Ic4,
What did I say,
This is what the average member wants to know.
Ji
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I still think this is the best thread I have read in ages.
Shortshift those simple viscosity test images are great.
Simple tests are all ways the best.
We can all see the difference between the oils.
Thanks for taking the time.
I would like to see this test run with Motul 800, Castrol 747, Maxima 927, Silkolene and Maxima Super M injector side by side. Where can I purchase these test units from so I can run my own tests?
Is there also a simple test to determine octane level in fuel?
Keep up the good work Shortshift.
Ji
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Rock Oil and Penrite do a Caster-synthetic if anyones looking for that sort of oil.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/specialty-automotive-products/sin_race_castor
cant seem to find the Rock oil castor oil on their website but i know its in the distibutors catalogue at work so i will double check.
found it here though so it must be around
http://www.ooracing.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=1301
http://shop.wemoto.com/pictures.dyn?k=RO-RACINGCASTOR-1L
might be easier to get than Maxima
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Typical, the bike shop has the Maxima in shop but they received the Super M not The Super M Injector like I ordered.
The following tech data is for the Maxima Super M injector oil.
Cst is 56.7 @ 40C this is still to high is it not?
We should be looking for 40-50Cst is that what you recommended.
Technical Data
Color D 1500 Orange
Gravity °A.P.I. 26.7
Viscosity SUS @ 100°F 264
Viscosity SUS @ 210°F 56
Viscosity cSt @ 40°C 56.7
Viscosity cSt @ 100°C 9.07
Pour Point, °F -30
Flash Point, °F 220
Fire Point, °F 250
Viscosity Index 138
SAE Viscosity 20
Silkolene Pro 2 SX is SAE 40 w this would be miles to viscous would it not.
Ji
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that Silkolene is the one I currently use at 40:1 - when motors have been pulled apart etc all has looked good. Easy to get hold of as well - mixes easily etc etc etc.
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Shortshift. thanks for a great thread.....seems here in the USA we prefer to debate who we hate...who we hate by proxy etc. Great tech stuff here.
Anyway, what do you think of the Silkolene KR2-it shows an SAE viscosity of 30, or are there any castor fortifed synthetics with an SAE viscosity of 20? It seems from most of the thread that it is preferred to run a thinner oil-and more of it ( like 20:1 vs 40:1). Also, for here n the USA, what do you think of VP racing's C12 fuel for our vintage two strokes?
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James I ran VP C12 and RC3 castor oil in my '73 250 Maico on dirt track back in the late 90s and it definitely produced the power. We got 27bhp at the wheel on the dyno which is pretty damn good for a bone stock 250 (except for the oldschool Wheelsmith pipe) but eventually gace up on C12 and went back to methanol as the C12 was too finicky to jet. A cloud would come over and you'd have to change the main!
My mate, Chris Ellis rode the bike at the Nepean Vintage Aussie Dirt track titles and he diced pretty closely and beat in some races with # 52 and Grassy from this forum who have a pair of very quick big horsepower Elsinores. Not bad for a stock as a bog Maico that prior to using C12 and setting it up on the dyno had more often than not stayed parked in my shed because it was too slow to race, even for me.
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It's a simple fact of using the proper race fuels is you will have to get aquainted with effects of changes in Relative Air Density(RAD). Once you have a RAD chart for your engine the fuels are dead easy to jet to the point of deto every time the engine runs.It's no fault of the fuel.The real VP fuel is ROO16 that is is just pour in HP but at $13 a litre it would want to be
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Yes, VP is high $$ for sure. Sadly, at least here in the Us we have had oxygenated fuel for several years. Latley, we have ethanol blends-I think in reality up to 15% at times. I realize the octane ratings are different, but in some parts of Australia do you have ethanol?
Hope to hell I didn't kill the thread-I want more tech info.
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Yeah James we can choose an ethanol blend. To be honest i am shit scared of it and wont put it in my car.BTW, what sort of car is in your avatar?
Its a bit too small to make out but looks alot like a monaro which i doubt .
Keep the tech coming!
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Without giving to much away ethanol is the new black ;)
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Here in the US the gays are the new blacks LOL. We have no choice at the pump-it has ethanol most of the year-maybe all year now. We have to buy VP or another specialty race fuel-crap most are oxygenated -which IMO is not preferrable. Hence my ? for C12. I think VP offers other fuels-Want an octane of about 100 ( RON-US method)-leaded or unleaded, but non oxygenated-ad a higher specific gravity than say .720 or so ( better mixing with castor and castor blends). I should look it up.
I found the Silkolene KR2 has the SAE viscosity of 30 ( aka 30 weight). I wonder if this is too heavy to mix at 20:1 or 25:1?
Brad- Yes it IS a Monaro GTS 350 (70-71)-though I prefer the first year(1968) as it is cooler IMO. Though any V-8 Torana is pretty mean as well IMO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oObB6DehViE
-see " life is suddenly Monaro" Just thought it was a very cool car.
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Getting back on topic.
I purchased some TTS on Saturday and mixed it with a spoon with BP ultima at 25:1.
This mix with Motul 800 would have oil pouring out of my bikes exhaust pipes.
I took a Honda CR85 and a KTM SX125 to Echo Valley on Sunday and ran the bikes as hard as we could in the slippery conditions. We were certainly up in the rev range toward the end of the day as the track dried.
The attached image shows how little oil was ejected as a fluid. I think the oil we can see in the image was in a vapour form but condensed on the rim of the out let. The bikes started first kick all day long. Did they have more horse power, unfortunately I have never run Ultima in the KTM before so I can not say. It certainly took 4 lappes before I was use to the power and could get my body position right. I guess I can say that my KTM 125 on the above mentioned mix was quicker than my Maico 250 on V Power and 747 at 40:1.
So if we use a SAE 10-20w oil we can mix it to 25:1 without fear of it fouling everything including our sheds.
Shortshift and others who have been using this system for years were right it does work fine.
Ji
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/Echo3.jpg)
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Here is an image of the Honda CR85's pipe.
Some oil but not pouring out.
When we picked this bike up from Springwood Honda new we were told to run it on Motul 800 40:1 by the head mechanic which we did until Sunday.
Ji
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/P7270704.jpg)
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Hi guys, I am interested in following this thread... I am no expert but I have been using Motul 800 at 40:1 in my bikes for a while and have always found them to be blowing out black oily shyte. I recently switched to Bel Ray H1R at 40:1 and found that they did not blow any smoke or oil from the pipe... a recent engine rebuild showed a lot of unburned motul laying around in the bottom of the cases
I bought my H1R at MCA on Parramatta Rd.... seems like good stuff
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Oil running out your exhaust is a sign of incomplete combustion it is NOT a sign of 'too much oil', jetting, squish and ignition timing get enough heat into combustion to burn the oil. The oil fallen out of suspension and lying in the crank case is actually protecting your engine not harming it.
I unfortunately don't have a pic but a Rotax kart pipe that after 3 seasons regular running had slight SURFACE RUST inside the pipe. Not one drop of oil ever came out the atmospheric end of the exhaust.Running 25:1 Agip Moto X
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The oxygenation of fuel is described here. Ethanol is used as one addition to achieve this. As I have written it is not good for 2 cycle mixing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygenate
Those Flowsticks I have had for some 16 years, and will try to find out if they are sold to the public.
To work out the octane rating of fuel without complex apparatus is very difficult (and impossible to be worked out in the field) and is conducted under laboratory conditions using a special engine with variable compression, air/fuel ratio . http://www.astm.org/Standards/D2699.htm
There are various race fuel suppliers around the place. I would check out ELF, VP and the locally produced stuff from Fuel2Race out of Sydney that is very good and doesn't have the high sponsorship and import price tags. I have used their 100+ and 102 with great success.
http://www.racefuels.com.au/fuelsForBikes.asp
This may be helpful in describing in layman's terms additive treats of 2 cycle oils even if it discusses marine engines.
http://www.wayneswords.com/cgi-bin/wayne.pl?noframes;read=39503
http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/article.jsp?ID=21011229
It is wise to become mindful and informed of what you are really buying. On the weekend walking through the campsites and talking to people I came across a bottle of Shell Advance SX2 2 stroke oil. I picked it up and read the label on the back. I was rather disappointed that it said made with " Poly-Iso-Butene Synthetic base fluid" (PIB). Now it doesn't say that on their web page.
http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=au-en&FC2=/au-en/html/iwgen/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/au-en/html/iwgen/shell_for_motorists/oils_lubricants/advancerange_0620.html#1
It simply says "Synthetic Fortified", now when I put my dollars across the counter I am expecting to pay for a product that contains "some" % of Polyol-Ester (POE) or Poly Alpha Olefin (PAO) synthetic base fluid as the fortifying agent. Their top of the line Racing X2 contains a blend of both of these compounds.
So what you are really buying is a mineral oil that has had PIB added to it as a lubricity agent. PIB should not really be called a synthetic lubricating fluid in the same class or category as a POE, and this only confuses the consumer out there, in fact it is actually a rubber compound, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisobutylene
Advance SX2 would be seen as an equivalent performance to say Maxima Premium 2 or Motul 510. But the Maxima and the Motul also has POE in it. http://www.maximausa.com/products/2stroke/premium2.asp so they would be better products and perhaps more expensive than the Shell which incidentally is the case. There is nothing wrong with the Advance product and will work well and I have used it, but the price difference is in the base fluid and Esters are very expensive. It is more of a fortified mineral oil rather a true semi-synthetic 2 cycle oil, and it should not state "Synthetic Fortified" anywhere on their packaging as it can mislead the buyer when choosing an oil based on quality and performance. Their Ester/PAO Racing X2 might be worth looking into more.
The argument I have is with the continued play on words and construction of sentences in their data sheets/labelling etc that if challenged in court or by consumer advocates the oil companies would win, and have plans in place to do that at any time, by the continued play on words where the judge would be so confused he would throw the case out.
I wont go into the argument of what is defined as Synthetic, but to give some analogies, is Soy Milk Synthetic dairy milk? Is Margarine Synthetic butter? Is Aspartame Synthetic sugar? Is PIB a synthetic oil?.....no they are not! They are classified as Substitutes to the real thing. In our example PIB should be listed as an additive not the BASE fluid as you only use a minor % of it.
The Maxima SuperM Injector is fine at 56CSt @ 40C as it has a very high flow rate when cold due to its higher than average VI figure of 138.
I need to clarify with a Castor oil, and looking back at the flow test I did with Castor 927, a castor may show it has the same viscosity range @40C than say Motul 800 BUT when the temperature drops to say 18C during the test it thickens up and this is due to the Viscosity Index figure (VI) being only 99 as against 135 or so with the 800. The 927 showed a reduction of flow by about 45% in a temp variation of 22C. We need to be aware of these issues so we can change our mixing procedures to best suit the product we are handling.
If I put Castrol R30, Shell Advance Super M and A747 together on the flowstick it would show similar results. Even though say A747 has thinner viscosity listed it plainly says on the bottle not to be used below 0C (32F) as at that temperature the stuff will be hard as butter.
Maicojames, the Silkolene KR2 is virtually equivalent to the other castor/synthetic blends and MJ it can be mixed at 20:1 just fine and like all Castors mix it on the spot, pour it in and ride and realise the shelf life is limited as it absorbs moisture and falls out of suspension.The A747 is the thinnest in viscosity that I can see of all the oils in this castor blend category. It must have thinner ester mixed in with the heavier castor.
I will have to double check exactly what Silkolene grade that shop had on the floor as there are variuos grades that have similar sounding names and the crosscheck the viscosity and VI if I can source a data sheet from Fuchs. I know the people from the UK and can get this information.
I am glad that things looked positive for JiGantor's bikes......your muffler packing will not get contaminated as fast and will last longer......The oil settling on the outlet is really just oil getting caught in the dead air space just around the exit and forming a deposit there.
It concerns me further when the dealer states that you MUST use a particular brand and grade of oil in a certain ratio. I notice we have some American readers of our forum, and in the US there is a law called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act that states that if a manufacturer tells you to use say Mercury Oil in your engine for period X and that if you use any other oil then your warranty will be voided, then the manufacturer MUST give you the oil for FREE of charge. The same if you bought new Yamaha bike and the dealer says that you must use Yamalube in it for warranty purposes. Tell him to stick it if he doesnt give you the oil free of charge. This cut the BS in the USA like in your Buick you must use Quaker State.
So over here it is really a matter of ethics or principle to offer a wider range of brands and information for the rider to trial a variety of ratios as well.
And as Stevo17 found out he had great performance with the Bel-Ray H1R that is thinner than the Motul 800 he previuosly ran. I tried to buy it but couldnt find it anywhere. I am trying to be the devils advocate here Stevo but how did you know that it was Motul 800 in your crankcases? I dont know what colour the H1R is, the Si-7 is a Light Blue, the Motul800 you can see is a dark red. I know it has a high tackiness factor perhaps through fortification of some high molecular PIB.
I would also try running H1R at 20-25:1 to see how you go.
I incidently ran the BR Si-7 @ 20:1 over the weekend and it definatley smoked a lot less under acceleration compared to some other oils I used and the bike ran hard with it. Many times I looked behind me and thought, "Oh there is no smoke......this Ester stuff works!". The plug was very clean and I had the same effects on the plastic as JiGantor had. The oil came out in a vapour. I feel that days requiring riders to "burn" their expansion chambers on a bonfire to remove oil carbon deposits is in the past. Below you can see the blackness on my guard as well.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/PE400Harrow3.jpg)
A 2 stroke engine operates under the Total Loss Lubrication principle where its lubricant gets thrown out (UNBURNT) through the exhaust system. The lubricant is then continuously replenished and its amount governed by how much the operator puts into the fuel. In the old days with cheap Group I base fluids, Bright Stock and leaded fuel the oil became OXIDISED and formed carbonaceous deposits in the exhaust and led to exhaust port blocking. After I had my expansion chamber chemically degreased by Jet-Hot Coatings before applying the ceramic coating I havent had anymore carbon build up in the unit. I have seen ports over 20 years ago up to 35% or so blocked off from the top seriously affecting performance and timing.
If there is rust in the exhaust after such a short time then 2 possible reasons : it might be put down to leaded fuels (Avgas 100 but I think the limit these days is 98 pump gas) used where the lead salts promote corossion regardless of oil film that will break down where the salts take over. I will have a look at some exhausts from some karts when I go to the tuners place next few days to borrow a flywheel puller, but these engines only see flat out running and very hot exhausts where the speed and heat of the gas stream is such that nothing would settle on the glowing red hot surfaces.
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Hey Shortshift,that is a very cool handle brother.I spoke to a well known CZ MXer and VMXer from the 70,80 90's yesterday and asked him about what he had used in his bikes and he said castrol R early on but then went to a Mobil lawnmower oil at 25:1,which took me by surprise.On regular tear downs everything was bright and shiny with no nasty surprises.How do these oils stack up against the designated motorcycle oils?
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This has to be one of the best ever threads on ozVMX. BITD I ran 25:1 in my bikes until during the 80s the whole thin mix thing came on and I used to run 40:1 on TTS. I believed all the stories about less oil equaling less splooge and more power. It wasn't until Lozza made his post a while back about the adgvantages of 20:1 that I changed.
I now run my 75 RM125 on Castrol Activ at 20:1 and have done since the last engine rebuild. I run my 05 YZ125 on Motul 800 at 30:1. Both feel to me to be jetted well, the YZ runs nice and crisp with the barest minimum of splooge. I rarely notice more than a fine deposit at the tailpipe. The RM too runs just great, although a little work on jetting might tidy it up in the middle. Oil wise though, next to no splooge anywhere. I recently pulled both down for rings and both looked lovely and shiney inside. I no longer have any problems with plug fouling which was a major problem on my RM400N running 40:1. I am more than happy with my setup although I am now vaguely wondering if TTS might be a better option for the YZ than the Motul.
I recall reading (I think it was Eric Gorr) that you can judge correct mixture for your engine by the amount of oil deposited out of suspension on the crankcase floor. I have no idea if this is wise advice, but interesting in light of a couple of comments above...
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So Ji can I assume from your test that you will be running TTS at 25:1 in you old air cooled Euro bikes and jetting up?I have been alternating between Motul 800 and Silkolene at 30:1 but am now thinking to change to TTs at the above ratio.I always use 98 BP.
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Shortshift,
Have read this thread with great interest. I have no qualifications whatsoever, pisshead being the exception, so it is times like these I like to hear from an "expert" and then add my 2 bobs worth.
When I first started racing, 1976, the given ratios were, as you repeatedly state, either 20:1 or 25:1. I used whatever was at hand in relation to oils and mixed at 25:1 (Allowing for paraplex error, no measuring bottles) as stated in the handbook and proceeded to thrash whatever bike I had at the time. I have even used BP Zoom. In 78 I bought a new YZ125E, followed the run in instructions given to me by the shop owner and then thrashed the hell out of it too. Did a plug chop, saw it was a bit black, dropped 1 main jet size and never touched it again. Used to wash the air filter in petrol and squeeze though whatever 2 stroke oil you used in the petrol. Much to the horror of that shop owner I rode it through the bush, mate's properties or anywhere to get as much ride time as possible. Practiced nearly every weekend that I didn't race. I could not afford to follow the manual's guideline for piston\ring replacement as I was a second year apprentice with no help from anyone else so my bike maintenance was far worse than it is now. "How is that possible" I hear the scoofs of disbelief. I did relent when power started to wane and got it bored out 0.25 over. Due to faulty crank case suffered by D & E models (Main bearing cups vibrating loose) I had to pull the bike down quite a few times but I only replaced bearings and seals once or twice. I also need to note this was done with very basic tools and no compressor for blow dust and other contaminents out of things. Never replaced conrod, big end etc. After 2 years of having its arse flooged right off I retired it and me from racing as I could not afford to live and work in Melbourne & support a "Racing habit". The bike was still riden occassionly for a few years to come but not much. I might add that at some stage during my 2 year "Racing career" the shop owner put me onto MC1 @ 50:1. I cant explain why but somthing was not right so I went back to mineral oil @ 25:1.
I know I'm going on a bit but I do have a point to get to, I think.
Many years later, about 1997, I pulled it down because of a gearbox problem then promptly let it sit in open boxes it a damp airy old shed for 5 years before being convinced to reassemble it. Not wanting to waste money on it it got the bear neccessities. 2nd gear & rings. Back together it went with 25 year old bearings, seals, silastic repaired gaskets etc. you get the picture. Threw in some mower fuel that had to be 6 months old and to my amazement started almost straight away. With it going I went and bought some new mineral oil & I rode for several weekends before thinking I would like to get back into this but before committing to the Viper scene and the Western Region I went, for want of a better word, racing.
I entered a 2 dayer at Monza, flogged the old 125 over the 2 days and had a grin from ear to ear. Later after racing on the Sunday me & some friends went back to my place for a BBQ. My cousin asked to go for a ride and off he went only to come back pushing it. It had done a bigend. Oh well I thought, it is 25 years old and has been poorly maintained, what do you expect.
Now armed with more tools than a George Michael concert and a slighty better bank account than when I was an apprentice, thank god for Visa, I set about giving the old girl the first proper rebuild it has ever had. Conrod kit, all bearings and seals, rebored, piston kit, the lot. Now that the engine is as close as it was ever going to get to new I had to protect it. Asked several people their opinion of what oil and what ratio. A friend from "The old days" who was still into racing, curtsy of his children, and he swore by Motul 800 but recommended 33:1 being air cooled. After much oil dripping from the exhaust and recommendation from that same shop owner I raised it to 40:1. I also used proper air filter oil washing it in mineral turps. I have since bought many other racing bikes for Viper, YZ250F, 400F, a couple of 125F's & others, all running 800 @ 40:1 in 95 or 98 RON ULP. Anytime they were pulled down for whatever reason I was pleased with the cleanliness but noticed more than expected wear. I was told it was our fine dust caused by the drought (Same shop owner again). Now I will say that the 4 engine failures (4 different bikes) I have had in the passed 7 years were not due to lack of oil or at least 3 deffinitely weren't but now (I'm nearly at My Point!) I am wondering on the 4th. You see it was my original 125E engine in a 125F frame that my daughter raced. I had actually retired the bike to restore it now that I had 2 125F's for me & my daughter. Unfortunately she couldn't ride the F on the pipe like it has to be so I put the E engine in as it pulls from down low a lot better. This engine had done very little work since it's full rebuild but it siezed the bigend bearing. I put it down to bad luck. I put a second hand DT175 crank in it and it is still going.
This got me thinking to how much some VMX riders now pull down their engines to replace bigends, conrods, bearings etc. Far more than they would have in their hay day in full racing mode. I am always hearing of siezures, flogged out bearings etc.
Hear is my point (Thank god I hear you all scream, that is if you're still reading) given the very poor maintenance my 125 did, or did not may be more to the point, receive the thing ran hard for almost 2 years, never siezing, no bearing problems only major repairs were though faulty manafacturing and I could certainly ride harder then. Jump 25 years, better maintenance, better components, better tools, not a better riber but better oils. Or are they? I put my engine back together with far more precision than was possible or I cared about when I was 19 but it still failed and shortshifter I think you have given me the answer. What you have stated now fits the bill. I will now go back to manafacturers specs on all my bikes.
One thing though, many have asked you your preferrence of oils and even though you have given snippets away I dont think you have ever directly answered. Is it because you are afraid to give a concise answer for fear of someone destroying their bike, for whatever reason, and trying to lay the blame at your feet? I am sure that everyone will take it as recommendation only and not gospel.
Just a suggestion but when you talk of R30 or 800 etc I cant remember which is castor, which is fully sythetic etc. I know you continually say only mix castor on the day, short shelf life etc.
Could you simply do a list and not poo poo any product but simply put next to it 4 columns. The first would be its type fully synthetic, sythetic blend, castor, mineral etc then followed by pro, cons & recommend.
eg
Motul 800 Type Fully Synthetic Pro Great adhersion Con Low viscosity Recommend (Left blank)
Castrol TTS Type (Forgot) Pro Great friction protection Con Cost per litre Recommend Yes
I for one am a bit of a sheep where it comes to this, I followed the word of a mate I regarded as very knowledable and for all intent and purposes put me onto a good thing.
Now I would like your opinion!
Simply put, what is YOUR favourite oil/oils to use??
As many have said before, one of the most interesting threads I have read in a while.
Hope I haven't put too many to sleep, at least I may have helped a few insomniacs.
Had my first real ride since September on Sunday, 2 x 3 laps....................Absoluetly knackered. Roll on Barrabool
At work, can only slip a few Melb Bitters in......
Viper666
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Hi Shortshifter,
CZ owner and all round good guy from the Sunshine Coast.
No.
This thread came to late for me to test these concepts on my Maico prior to the Nationals. I will still be running 747 40:1 in my bikes as per normal. After the nationals I will have time to test all this required info and make the changes necessary. I will perform the compression tests to see what increase I get from different mixes.
You should try Shell V Power it definitely gives more torque out of corners than the Ultima.
I found a good way to test the viscosity of oil while at the shop.
Place the oil container in your hand horizontally and swish it back and forward.
Try this with all the brands.
The ones that slish and swish like water are SAE10w.
TTS is almost water like but Motul 710 is as thin as water.
My engine has not come back from the rebuilder at this stage so I don't think I will be riding my CZ at the nationals this year.
Keep Well
Ji
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Conondale over night at this time of year will drop to 0 deg C.
The bikes that are left out over night are usually hard to start the next Morning.
There is usually a heavy dew and the sun does not peak over the tree line until about 9.00-10.00am
This fills the air with moisture which is easily tested, just pull out your camera and watch the lens fog up.
With this said I guess a thick Castor oil like R, 747, 927....... would not be the best to provide protection with.
The cold air in my experience certainly makes the bikes faster.
Ji
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How does one get to be a qualified 'pisshead' Viper ;D ;D ;D
Ji your correct temp has a big influence on the air density, altitude and moisture do have a bearing but not as much as temp. You would probably find that if you raced late afternoon with the sun dissappearing/temp dropping the power of the morning will suddenly reappear
A list is simple Viper
Castor/synthetic blends(which ever brand) as far toward the top as possible.Then right down near the bottom every other oil.
Here is an old H100 cylinder that was last used close to 10yrs ago(still has the seizure marks in it) it has sat around in the shed for all that time and has yet to see a speck of rust on that bore.The engine has only ever ran on castor/synthetic oil at 18 or 20:1.The cylinder still has a slick surface and after honing would go dull, then promptly shiny after use. Any shiny steel has surface rust appearing in a week at my place.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/001-2.jpg)
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Hi Lozza,
The colder the air temp the faster the bikes run.
We race at Mount Tamborine and it is even higher but not as cold as Conondale. The Maico engine runs like a better engine at both these locations.
I would like to clear some thing up between Lozza, Shortshift and I.
I like Lozza was brought up to believe that the pre-mix oil is burnt during the cycle. I know it does not provide the dynamite that turns over the engine but it still burns just the same. After all if we put to much in we get a heavily carboned spark plug. This carbon is a result of the oil burning.
Shortshift on the other hand is stating that the oil never burns it is just lost out the exhaust as a vapour.
So Which Is It
Burns up or
Blows out ?
Ji
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Interesting port work in that barrell Lozza, lloks nothing like mine in an A or S model, you been adding and briging ? or am i missing something there ( been a while for me 2)
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Hi Lozza,
The seizure in that bore was due to running the carb lean or pre-mix instability?
Ji
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Mikuni sell a Pocket Tuner slide rule to help with main jet selection due to temp or elevation changes.
Mikuni here in Australia sell them for not much money if anyone is interested.
Ji
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/Mikuni.jpg)
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Remember you already have to arrive at the best main jet first for your bike. This slide rule only helps select the correct main jet when the temp has changed or you are racing at a different elevation than where you tuned the bike to begin with.
Ji
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Hi Shortshift,
The Bel Ray H1R is also red in colour, a little darker than the Motul 800. I had only been using Motul 800 in all my bikes for 3 or 4 years prior to the rebuild on my RM250Z - and the oil found in my engine was red. I only decided to change oils after the rebuild and am happy with the result. The H1R was also $6 cheaper than the Motul 800 per litre.
cheers
steve
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Hi Stevo,
Can you post an image of the piston that you replaced after running it on Motul 800 40:1.
Thanks
Ji
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Hi JiGantor, sure I will try and take a pic later this arvo and post it.
steve
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Hi Ji,
Here are a couple of pics of my RM250Z piston run on Motul 800 at 40:1. As you can see the piston is fairy clean but showing signs of wear. I had undertaken a top end inspection and cleaned the piston crown about 5 race meetings prior to this rebuild. I had been riding the bike on saturday practice and race day sundays with Heaven VMX.
(http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss338/crynnthnight/IMG_0126.jpg)
Unfortunately, prior to these pics I had wiped the crown of the piston which had collected a soft layer of carbonized gunge. It was soft enough to wipe off with a rag. The bike has a brand new flat slide carb and reeds. Jetting may have been just a tiny tad rich but the bike always started first kick and never fouled.
(http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss338/crynnthnight/IMG_0127.jpg)
Most of the time I run Mobil 8000 fuel. If I get stuck and dont have a Mobil servo handy then I have used V-Power.
(http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss338/crynnthnight/IMG_0129.jpg)
I am interested in using some of these race fuels such as Elf etc just to see what difference they make.
I have also been using the Motul 800 at 40:1 in my 86 KX500 and it has the black oil spewing out the pipe... On my next ride I will change it to H1R to see if she runs cleaner.
Shortshift, what do you think the benefits of running at 20 or 25:1 with the H1R are?
cheers
steve
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Oil NOT burnt in combustion? What would that black stuff be on Stevo's piston be then(I get to cleaning crowns Stevo)?With combustion temps at 1500C why would it not burn? That black deposit on Stevo's piston is burnt oil that hasn't got hot enough during combustion. The hotter the piston gets the charred oil goes from black to coffee brown, then tan and if your to hot grey then grey with a hole in the top and finaly grey hole in the top and stuck in the bore. Rather like the plug.It's called a wash pattern, pistons pulled from well tuned engines show a brown colour on the crown and the piston 'washed' clear of charred oil by fuel directly in front of the transfers and exhaust ports(a lot of info can be gleaned from a wash pattern).Ji your Maico piston was about 1 jet from a perfect wash pattern. Both Bell and Jennings are of the opinion oil is burnt.
As the spent gas travels down the pipe and temps start to rapidly drop the unburnt oil hits the pipe wall and stays there or travels down to the stinger and dribbles out the back.
The seizure in the cylinder pictured was from to small a stinger diameter and/or a faulty ignition that went into orbit....but geez it went well for 1 lap ;D My latest H100 cylinders a far better than that old shitter Freaky.
Those Mikuni charts are to be used as a rough guide only as changes in RAD are effected by temp, barometric pressure then humidity all of which can change independantly of elevation.RAD is another topic altogether.
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Thanks Lozza.
Looking forward to reading what Shortshift makes of burning oil.
From my observations I totally agree that I need to go down one jet size.
I am happy with the carb being rich as we race at different elevations and conditions that may send her lean. I don't want to be fooling around with jetting at every meet besides there is not enough practise time to get it right.
There is another way of looking at all of this and that is,
Even if I had the bike ticked off by Chad Reed as developing the maximum horse power I am not good enough to use it. Thus I am happy with what I have at this time. As I get faster I may look for hidden power.
Ji
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Heres a Pe 400 piston that has done over 100 hours on 20:1 mix motul 800
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i180/mutchoo/piston003.jpg)
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Ok lets first clear up some terminology about 2 cycle oil being "Burnt" in these engines that will dispel the confusion of what we are talking about. The oil does not get "burnt" as in the fuel being burnt/ignited to create pressure on the piston to create forward motion of the motorcycle. The carbon deposits on the piston is the product of only a minute (0.0000001%) percentage of the total oil going through the engine that oxidises and leaves some deposits. In fact I will argue it is a minute amount of the additve pack instead later.
A nanoscule of oil only as 2 cycle oils are made with ashless low deposit base fluids (POE's, PAO's and PIB's when they are not too heavy) and ashless additives. Just because the oil gets blackened by the combustion event does not mean it has been burnt like "oil" does in a diesel engine.
Imagine if ALL your oil got "Burnt" or turned into deposits you would have to clean out your exhaust and take down your engine between heats due to the carboning. To completely burn the oil you would need a compression ratio of 17:1 like a typical diesel engine. Our bikes range from around 8:1 to 12:1.
In a 4 stroke engine when you have worn rings or guides and sump oil enters the combustion spaces the oil leave greater carbon deposits (usually hard, but excessive oil is used then black fluffy deposits are laid down) as the oil is NOT an ashless oil (except for in Aero engines like your Lycoming, Pratt & Whitney in DC-3's or Cessna etc that has 2 stroke like dispersants in it to stop plug fouling up in the air) as it contains a great amount of metallic detergents and dispersants, anti wear addtives etc as it has to stay in the sump for a long time to do its work over and over again. A typical 4 stroke motor oil (diesel or petrol) has a Sulphated Ash content of between 0.8 to 1.2% which is all that is left over when "cooking" the oil in lab conditions on a hot plate at 550C. (This is duplicated inside your engine) So all you have left from 100% liquid oil is 1.2% residue that is the carbonised additive pack. Barium and Calcium detergent additives are not added to 2T oils as they will leave this residue.
To advance this point further, and bring it into perspective, why is it only a nanoscule (I made this word up) of the total oil that you see behind on the piston? It is because of the active additive package of a 2T oil is only a fraction of what its 4 stroke oils brother has inside it. On the Motul 710 data sheet it lists a specification called TBN. (Any diesel/railroad/marine mechanics out there) it means Total Base Number and on any 4T oil you buy for your car or bike it will list this. It refers to the level of detergency and alkalinity reserve contained in the oil blend to combat acid attack from sulphur in the fuel. A diesel engine oil that has to deal with lots of sulphuric acid from the fuel and has a typical TBN between 9 and 13, a petrol engine oil for cars now has between 6 and 8.
And the TBN of Motul 710 for instance is 2.1 and for 510 semi-syn a mere 1.1. This means that the formulator knows that adding too much detergency/dispersancy is a waste of money and excessive amounts wont do the job of cleaning (as the oil doesnt stay in there too long) and a % of the excess will end up as carbon on the piston and dome. So less additive is more in this case as it is a waste of money to have good unutilised additive to go out the exhaust.
In a 4 stroke engine the oil goes black because the high TBN additive collects and disperses the soot generated by the combustion that goes past the rings into the sump. 2 cycle oil goes black because of getting this soot mixed up in it as well. However I recall tests being done a long time back and a 2 stroke engine running flat out at steady throttle does not dirty its oil as bad as when we are on and off the gas resulting in incomplete combustion that generates soot. Leaner or optimum fuel ratios generate LESS soot as well. If you ran your bike down the saltflats as hard as it would go the oil coming out the pipe would almost be as clear as when you put it in. Under these conditions you would also generate less smoke. If you could condense it and collect it you could almost reuse it!
I have argued elsewhere in modern bike forums that the 2 stroke is making a resurgence for economic reasons against the expensive to run 4T bikes. If the 2 stroke bikes get developed further they may be fitted with "scubbers", particle filters on the exhausts to catch the oil vapour like modern EuroIV diesel cars and trucks now have to trap soot. Many car and 4T bike race engines have a catch can to catch any excess oil vapours from the crankcases escaping from the breathers not for environmental reasons but for track safety.
Lee Iacocca, former Ford president said, "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
Ji, keep your fuel/oil tins inside your car wrapped in blankets/sleeping bags and mix the fuel in the morning and fill your empty tank prior to riding if using A747. I also saw on the weekend guys heating up their plugs with lighters and a gas torch before putting it into their bikes for starting. It was around 1C at 9AM cold start test.
I also expereinced less "out of the hole" bottom end exiting from corners on the MX track as I ran 95 octane fuel compared to 100 this weekend to test. You had to drop a gear and rev it out a bit more.
Stevo, seek out the Fuel 2 Race in Sydney that is well priced and as good as the $$$ imported ELF/VP stuff. Ring Bob the owner on 0404-347-367, he has a guy in Brisbane that handles it but I do not know who.
I highly recommend you try H1R at the richer ratios as it is a lower viscosity. You might like to try Motul 710 as well.
What you are finding with the discharge from your current oil is most likely the excess heavy PIB that you removed by hand. I mentioned in my viscosity tests how sticky the 800 was when trying to clean it off the flowstick.
The "grunge" on your piston is a mixture of burnt fuel residues but also in greater proportion the heavy PIB (tackafier) that if you jetted correctly (leaner) the hotter combustion would not have allowed the PIB to settle out like that. Bad news if you have a powervalve and get that stuff on it.. "Death-ash" that forms on the underside of the piston crown is due to excessive leaness and is more common in 4 strokes buring against the very hot piston. It does occur in a 2 stroke but less so.
Shortshifter, that Mobil Super 2 Stroke Oil back then was a very basic formulation before Mobil got into synthetic technology (They own an Ester plant in the USA so decided to value add). To get that level of cleanliness using that oil with such high levels of Brightstock and mineral oil he would have had to have spot on jetting. But talking to one guy over the weekend Castrol SuperTT was a great performer till the about 1980 when it is thought Castrol changed part of the formulation package and it left deposits. Maybe they did it on purpose to swing customers to their new TTS?!?
Graeme, Try to use any of the low to mid viscosity 2T oils on the market like TTS, Motul 710, BR H1R or Si-7 (like I used in the weekend @ 20:1) and many others in the Viscosity range of 35 to 60 centistokes @ 40C (100F). More oil leads to less plug fouling via the cleaning action of the oil, if your jetting is also right. I forogt what Eric Gorr said about how much should be left at the bottom when taking your barrell off.
Viper666, I am not particularly brand loyal these days and look beyond the labelling and stick to the philosophy of lighter oils at greater ratios. I would go out an buy perhaps 6-8 different oils that meet my philosophy. I used half the BR Si-7 bottle, then I will use the TTS and the 710 I bought the other day. Riders learn first off from what works off other riders, but must always keep their ears open to new ideas.
I will look at doing a spread sheet in the future with about a dozen popular brands reflecting classes of product.
Without getting into too much detail right now about certain oil suppliers strategy and thinking, Castrol for example who lead the revolution in ester oils 30 years ago for bikes (Mobil led the way in ester oils for aircraft jet engines instead a decade earlier) dont see the need for a heavy weight 2T oil like some other brands to try to dominate the market share. Heavy esters also cost more to manufacture and there is only two suppliers in the world for these. They know that virtually all offroad 2T bikes will be lubricated by the TTS product. They dont bother promoting their heavier viscosity XR-77 product in the same class as Motul 800 or Motrex Racing GP 2T. I dont think they even bring it into Australia.
Oldfart's example there shows that more oil offers cleaner metal surfaces and is a mirror image of my internals (Hospital Standard cleanliness as I described in the past). More oil provides more cleaning action to prevent deposits from sticking to the parts, (the constant incoming additive that contains a % of detergent and scavenging agents keep deposits from forming) but this engine is also an example of good jetting with the type of fuel used.
Why you shouldnt use car engine oils in your 2 stroke transmission or 4 stroke motorcycle. http://www.maximausa.com/technical/lubenews/winterspring2001.pdf
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Hi Shortshift,
Thank you.
I have been under that impression since 1975.
Ji
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Hey - bout time you showed up mister !
Everyone was worried about you being interred under your floor tiles !
Next project update is way overdue
Dave Mac :D
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To Summarise
1 Have your engine in tip top condition
2 Install a new clean air filter
3 Install a new temp correct spark plug
4 Set your timing correctly
5 Select the fuel you intend using and purchase it fresh on the day
6 Install a new carburettor
7 Perform a spark plug test and jet the carburettor just one notch rich off lean
8 Select a pre-mix oil that has the same viscosity that the engine manufacturer recommends
9 Mix the oil and fuel together at a rate specified by the engine manufacturer in the 20:1 range
10 Perform all the maintenance that the engine manufacturer recommends
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At the specified engine running time strip down the top end and discover a clean non worn piston that can be reused with a new set of rings.
The bore should only require a light hone.
The big and small end bearings and the crankshaft bearings should display negligible wear as well.
The engine should run at its peak. The added oil should keep it cool, clean and powerful.
The average rider now has a plan, funny it looks like what is written in all the dirt bike manuals I have. Of course as we know this thread was to shine a light on the 100:1 mix and debunk that system, but I think from all that have submitted "No One in their right Mind would Feed their Engine that Poisonous Meal".
What has come out of this thread for me is riders use the oil and ratio that they have used for years. Oils and ratios that have been associated with a seizure are dumped for a system that works, whether or not this mix keeps the engine lubricated, clean or cool. Some may have selected the type of oil because it is new and it has some real technology backing it up by marketing (Its the best oil - just ask us!) or a system that a friend has suggested. The reason a type of oil is used may be because it is cheap to buy or it is easy to get or because their mechanic recommended it. Some mixes with plenty of oil work for some while not for others and some mixes with little oil work for some and not for others. I guess it is like opinions " Everybody's got one".
Shortshift has tried his very best to teach us that "Oils ain't Oils"
Shortshift has been patient and explained all that he has accumulated over the years and for that I say "Thanks Mate".
Lozza has first hand experience working on bikes over a long time and has expanded this thread to make it one of the best articles I have ever read.
If Tech Talk was as interesting as this every thread, I would never buy another dirt bike magazine.
Ji
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Hey Shortshift,
I mixed up 25:1 TTS yesterday and ran my new Yamaha YZ490 K for quite a while on it.
It smoked at the beginning and then cleared as the engine warmed. No oil leaking out of the muffler. The new iridium plug has a golden glow and the engine is quite crisp off idle. This engine has been rebuilt so it should be a great test.
I will run the two YZ's on 25:1 TTS at the Nationals and report back.
Ji
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Has anyone come across Kawasaki's own 2T oils? It is amazing what you come across on the shop shelves. I went into get new chains for the chainsaws and other parts and I was about to pay my bill when I looked at the oil on the shelf. Sitting pretty was one very good brand Opti2 http://opti2-4.com/html/opti-2.html in 1 & 4 litre packs that legendary riders such as Helmut "Speedy" Clasen swears by. I then saw two Pint size (473ml) bottles of Kawachem 2 Stroke Motorcycle racing oil that I have never heard of before but in the older style packaging.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/PEParts018.jpg)
http://www.kawasaki.com/KawasakiNew/Accessories2/PCItemDetail.aspx?ItemNumber=K61020022B&Reason=6&intCatalogID=1&intCatalogType=23&ProductTypeID=150&CategoryId=49
It even makes reference to the suitability for the older KX/KDX models on their website. Anyway I asked the shop owner about this as it is for motorcycles and how he came by it and he said, "Oh it was sent to us by mistake with all the other Kawasaki powered mowers and KAAZ blowers we sell" and has been sitting on the shelf for ages. I said, "But it is for MOTORCYCLES, you dont race lawn mowers......I have a motorcycle!". "Oh you have a motorcycle then just take it, dont worry about it, you buy lots of stuff from us, I hate seeing it sitting on the shelf taking up space". So I ended up with these 2 bottles of oil that are made in the USA for Kawasaki Power products that had a price tag of $11.90 a bottle. Try getting a freebee like that from your local cycle shack!
Ji, the biggest problem with articles written in magazines about lube products or any products is that in the majority of cases they are simply advertisements for a brand of product masqerading as a technical or informative article for the particular audience of the publication. In this regard then all you have is just corporate marketing and company policy that has been handed down the generations of employees who have simply listened to their predecesssor and never investigated the subject themselves. The authors of these articles are merely regional distributors for a certain brand. I have seen this with even product reviews for motorcycle tyres, exhaust systems and suspension parts where the reviews are never going to find fault with the product, and the contents of the article have already been pre written and pre approved by the supplier and then gaps filled in by the technical editor of the magazine (if one exists). As you have found out riders cannot rely on motorcycle magazines or newspapers (ie: Cycle Torque that is a very good free publication) for their technical advice and education, as they are clearly biased towards advertising.
Also thanks for the headsup on your recent run with 25:1.
The Silkolene brand has been bought up a few times in this thread, and questions asked about it, and I was waiting till I got all the answers to my questions from my contacts at this company. Silkolene have marketed their 1st class products in Australia since about 1983 and their PRO-4 4T oil back in 1984-86 was recommended extensively to solve the lubrication/overheating/oil loss issues associated with the XR250RE and other RFVC engines at the time. I recall buying 4 litre packs of PRO4 ($50 back then was huge amount of money for oil, esp when my wages back then were $200 a week) (as well as Castrol GPS) specified by Honda back then where other riders running standard Castrol Grand Prix 20W/50 (Increased from 20W/40 in 1983) were running out of oil while in the dirt due to the high volatility of the mineral oil used in GP and its equivalents.(It evaporated out of the sump when subjected to the extreme heat created in these engines) . Other 4T oils suffered viscosity shear when the VI improver broke down and you had rattly lifters and breakdown of oil flim on most engine parts. This was compounded by riders putting in car oils into their bikes.
One fella who was parked near my car in the pits the other weekend had one of these problem bikes and I saw him waving a pack of Castrol Magnatec 10W/40 around and I noticed just as he finished topping up his bike with this oil. I said to him that you need a 20W/50 grade for these and that oil will shear down and is too thin for those hot running engines, "Oh well this is what I had sitting around". I just thought that i was glad it wasnt my bike and went back on preparing my own machine.
So back to 2T oils, especially the Silkolene grades this time round, and over the last 25 years they have come, then gone then come back in recent years when Fuchs from Germany bought them out. From what I have seen with their merchandising and dealer support it is a woeful effort and the brand really needs to be managed by a dedicated motorcycle parts distributor who understands the motorcycle market and the rider.
They have 3 grades of 2T available, PRO-2SX SAE 30 100% Ester(Motul 800 equivalent), Comp 2 Plus a lighter 100% Ester and Comp 2 Premix (a heavy SAE40 part synthetic).
One of their selling points is "Electrosyntec Technology" that is splashed all over their data sheets and packaging. This may sound impressive to the guy who fronts up to the shelves with many brands on offer and sees this and it is like the pack jerking off at him persuading him to lift a pack of PRO2SX off the rack instead of something else. But what does this really mean and is it something that is specific to the Silkolene brand. Well it isnt really, Polyol-Esters (POE's) or lets just refer to them as Esters are the "New Age" Castor oils with regards to film strength. I mean full marks to Silkolene for alerting the rider about the virtues of Ester oils, where most others havent, but it needs to be explained clearer to the rider and not used solely as a "Unique Selling Proposition". Clever selling tool!! but how about educating the poor punter why this is so and how it benefits his motorcycle.
How many of you actually go through the trouble to obtain a Technical data sheet on the oil you are using or about to use? Perhaps your "authority" is simply what your pal is using or what has been used in the Winners Circle.
Some research was conducted in around 82' in using plain Vegetable or Canola oil as a 2T lubricant. It mixed with fuel well like castor oil did, lubricated reasonably well but oxidised in the engine and created greater deposits.............I recall the author saying that the exhaust fumes created an atmosphere the same as a Fish and Chip Shop.
Castor oil, Canola Oil or any vegetable oil is a referred to as a Natural Ester. But what works best these days are the synthetically refined Esters used in modern Ester 2T motor oils. And this is what Silkolene have cleverly campaigned and betted on to differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd. The PRO2SX data sheet says "It is formulated using ester synthetic components which provide the exceptional anti-seize properties usually associated only with castor-based oils". It goes on and says, "Some oils can only achieve race performance at the expense of long-term engine cleanliness (Hinting at castor oil here!), but PRO 2 SX is particularly resistant to ring-sticking and plug fouling problems" "Electrosyntec uses electrostatic forces to bond low friction molecules to stressed metal surfaces, releasing hidden power and ensuring long-term performance retention". Bloody hell, "Hidden Power"........I wonder what else is hiding in the dark smelly recesses of my 2 smoker! The data sheet also states, "Do not mix with Conventional Oils"...........Well what the hell is a conventional oil these days?.........maybe if you are old enough it may mean some 70's mineral/bright stock formulation, but today the rider under 40 would not be able to interpret that ........Sometimes these tech sheets are written by fresh female University graduates in my experience!............
So is this the door slowly closing for Castor oils? Is the market for castor oils really only governed & supported by the Die Hards in the market like the Lozza's and other engine builders/racers (who follow results from the 60's/70's) who perhaps need to try a bottle of Motul 800, Silkolene Pro2SX, Bel-Ray H1R etc.......and run some tests. Is the Castor/Synthetics out there (A747, 927) a ploy to wean the diehards slowly away over time..........has the % of castor been slowly diluted with more Ester until it is all gone in the formulation? Let me tell you the oil companies and blenders hate dealing with Castor suppliers as they are not oil or additive suppliers but commodity traders (who deal in vegetable, corn, sunflower, cotton and other edible oils) with sometimes dubiuos raw material sources and quality control. Look at the substitution rackets with Olive oil for example.
I did eventually get some quite reasonable explanations from Silkolene of their claims which echoes some of my own descriptions of Castor oil a little while ago :
"The made-up word ‘Electrosyntec’ was coined to describe the electrostatic effect which causes polar molecules to be attracted to metal surfaces. (We see electrostatic attraction, such as sticking balloons to the wall, as weak effect, but at the ‘nano’ level it is surprisingly strong due to the inverse square law.) Even in the 18th and 19th centuries clockmakers and engineers realised that some oils were more ‘slippery’ than others, but the cause of this at a molecular level was only really sorted out by Frank Bowden and his collaborators working at Melbourne University in the 1940s and early 1950s. See:
http://www-pcs.phy.cam.ac.uk/fsp/PCSlaboratory.pdf
A particular type of molecule is very good at attaching itself to metal: A high molecular weight ester. Some esters, such as vegetable oils*, are ‘natural’ some are synthetic, but they all do it, to a greater or lesser extent; and they do not stop at one layer. (See attachments.) * Castor oil is the best!" (End of quote)
So Esters are really the future here, I still have my reservations about the "overuse" of PIB in formulations and would be disturbed if the % of Ester was cut back with PIB.
So when you see that word Ester staring at you on the pack of oil it has not been put there for nothing, it is too alert the rider of a very high quality formulation and this is what you are paying for.
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just 1 question shortshift
What oil do you think is the best to mix with methenol,and at what ratio.
cheers
jim
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http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=8466.0
Jim we did touch on this subject on this above post.............methanol (Methyl Alcohol) absorbs a lot of water and moisture when it is burnt amongst many things causing your sump or crankcase to get "rained" on by this moisture creating rust.
You need an organic oil such as Castor Oil to mix with it in a 2 stroke engine. Castor oils are soluble with methanol, ie) it mixes with it easier. I assume you are using this in a 2 stroke engine as the discussion for a 4 stroke engine would be a little different.
Castrol R30, Shell Advance Racing M, Maxima 927 are all suitable for this application. Maxima state, "When blending with alcohol it normally requires more oil"..........kart guys mix it at 16-18:1 with methanol, in a bike 20-25:1.
Also dont keep your methanol for too long as it goes off, buy it fresh as you need it. Understand it is corrosive when left in your engine and fuel lines, so drain everything after you ride. Some people fit a drain plug in their crankcase bottoms to drain any methanol/oil mixture left there.
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Has anyone come across Kawasaki's own 2T oils?
I'm pretty sure that's the same thing as Yamalube R with different dye, just repackaged.
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No it( Kawachem 2T) was mfg for them by Citgo we found out in mid 1990s. We ran it at 32:1 for years. Seems like a thinner oil-so it should be fine at 20:1 as well.
I ran into the castors soon after this, and by using Maxima's927 Castor at again 32:1, found IMHE better response on both my vintage 74 250 KTM and then near current 93 CR250R Honda. Maybe my imagination-but got holeshots by bigger margins on the Honda( damn that 93 250 had the engine to die for)-and never experienced an increase in deposits.
Next go round, want to try a thinner oil at 20:1 or 24:1. Maybe the Castrol TTS, or HR1, Maxima Super M injector, as they are more available to me . Your PE400 piston looks great.
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No it( Kawachem 2T) was mfg for them by Citgo we found out in mid 1990s. We ran it at 32:1 for years. Seems like a thinner oil-so it should be fine at 20:1 as well.
I ran into the castors soon after this, and by using Maxima's927 Castor at again 32:1, found IMHE better response on both my vintage 74 250 KTM and then near current 93 CR250R Honda. Maybe my imagination-but got holeshots by bigger margins on the Honda( damn that 93 250 had the engine to die for)-and never experienced an increase in deposits.
Next go round, want to try a thinner oil at 20:1 or 24:1. Maybe the Castrol TTS, or HR1, Maxima Super M injector, as they are more available to me . Your PE400 piston looks great.
All the OEM's change the vendors for their oils periodically as contracts expire. Who was producing oil for Kawasaki or Yamaha USA in the mid 90's is most likely not producing their oils today. It might be Citgo for a couple of years, then mobil, then someone else, but the formulas stay the same.
What we found was that the Japanese OEM injector oils, Yamalube 2S, Kawasaki 2 cycle Racing oil and Suzuki CCI were all essentially the same thing.
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I thought I would take out my flowstick again and have a little bit of fun with it.............I did another flow test with 4 other oils I gathered up. The one furthest from the bottles is the Kawachem Racing 2T, then the BR Si-7 (same vis as TTS), a basic cheap mineral Lawn Mower grade oil, and then some ELF MOTO XT2.
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/DSC00004.jpg)
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss41/supatipanno/DSC00005.jpg)
The spec sheet for the ELF in the photo.........
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/lang_1/163.pdf What annoys me is when the manufacturer claims a product is an SAE30 grade and in fact it is a "Duo-Grade" 20/30............it is 75Cst @40c not around 100Cst a true 30 grade......in fact closer to a 20 (68Cst)..............so riders who cannot find their usual brand or want to change select the XT2 but in reality it is lighter (which is not a bad thing anyway). ELF is as good as the other European brands out there.
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/lang_1/160.pdf Their top of the line oil is actually a true 30 grade but they list it as a 40 grade. It is comparable to Motul 800.
What also is annoying is when there is inconsistencies between the use of different test methods to state a Flash Point. This is very important for 4T oils due to oil volatily out of the sumps, but in a 2T oil it is relevant to things like deposit formation and used to determine how cleanly an oil will burn out of the engine. On the data sheets for the ELF Sport Comp 2 the lab guys use the ASTM D92 Open cup test and state a FP of 276C and for the Moto 2XT tech they use the ASTM D93 Closed Cup test that only lists an FP of 108C. Why the inconsistency as any race mechanic trying to make a choice will get misled and potentially choose one oil over the other when the figures would be almost similar.
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/lang_1/6323.pdf Trust the French to come up with something like this after their high reputation with colognes................It is actually a 4T oil and perhaps made for queers riding around the Champs Elysee' on their multicoloured scooters with chrome headlight surrounds doning designer handbags to attract their kind. An Ester/PAO oil perfumated with a castor scent!! What will they come up with next...........but only the French! Be careful when travelling through Paris.
Oh yeah they also make one for 2 strokes.......http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/lang_1/4853.pdf
These photo's simply show a comparison again with a few oils out there.............I was curious about the Kawasaki product how its flow compares to the rest so that i can determine the manufacturers philosophy. I wanted to also test a typical TCW-3 dedicated outboard oil and show people how fluid the product is but didnt have any on hand............it would have hit the end of the flowstick due to it being diluted while everybody else would have been maybe halfway down the track.
On a pack of 4T oil it ALWAYS lists the SAE grade like 10W/50 or 10W/40 etc but rarely is this seen as important for 2T oils.
Kendall Oil packaged oil for Harley since the early 90's and still do I believe made of the superior Pennsylvanian Napthenic crudes. I heard rumour Sunoco in the USA is now due to Phillips/Conoco Oil buying them out. Mobil pack Honda oil and Golden Spectro for BMW motorcycle.
Hopefully riders will excercise more care when selecting and/or changing brands/grades of 2T oil. There are so many great brands out there including Spectro, Repsol, Torco, Amsoil, PJ1 etc that may not be all available in our local market.
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found this info
http://www.dansmc.com/2stroke_oil.htm
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I'll be honest, I started out reading this thread but soon realised it was way over my head. I was interested but could'nt get on the same wavelenght as many/most of the tech heads whom were contributing to this topic. I have continued to scan the posts from the start and take some solace from shortshift's latest post on this subject. Re Amsoil, I have been running Amsoil 2T (red) at a mix ratio of 30:1 in my Lawn Mower (suzuki motor, 18 years old and 1 spark plug only) Komatsu brushcutter (25 years old and have'nt touched) Sachs Dolmar Cainsaw (25 years old and has had a carby kit and a couple of plugs in that time) Stilh Blower (15 years old and have'nt touched) 1974 Maico 440 (has had one bore in 35 years).
Yes I understand there is a whole heap of variables that would contribute to the above but with out boring you to death with how much work/hours each have done it would take a power of convincing to get me off Amsoil.
As an aside I also run both Amsoil and Neo Engine oils (ester based) in all the four stroke engines (approx 5) around the place and likewise would not be in a hurry to change brands.
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My YZ490 loved the Castrol TTS at 25:1.
It ran great and never missed a beat.
There was hardly any sign of white smoke coming from the pipe the whole time at the nationals.
There was no oil oozing from anywhere.
Overall I am pretty impressed.
Ji
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Great news Ji, I am happy for you (and your bike especially).
I also was just collecting all my receipts for my monthly bookeeping and came across the receipt for the oils I bought to conduct the oilflow tests.
I didnt really care about the differentials in cost between similar products at the time but I had a closer look today and I need to comment that it really opened my eyes.
On one receipt, from the same shop, the Motul 710 was $35.95 a bottle (A few bucks cheaper than 800), the Bel-Ray Si-7 was $26.95 and the Castrol Power TTS was $23.95. My view is that the Si-7 was developed to match the TTS, and you can even see this in the flow test.
Now, all these products are on a similar/equivalent whatever you want to call it category.........but the price range is vastly wide. Whose pocket is the extra $12 going into? Is it distributed evenly between the importer and the retailer?
Is the 710 worth the extra slug? ...........I will let you make that decision after having read the many posts on this thread.
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The 710 is more watery than the TTS but TTS works fine at 25:1 and it is a lot cheaper and easier to get as Super Cheap stocks it.
Ji