OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Momus on May 26, 2016, 01:25:29 pm
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What is to stop a recognised carry over model that spans 1974/75/76 being entered as a Pre 75 and a Pre 78 at the same meeting?
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The MOMS. Pre '78 is restricted to 1975/1976/1977 & recognised 1978 carry over models. Love it or hate it, them's the rules.
K
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Presumably any 75/76/77 model that is recognised as a Pre-75 legal carry-over would be legal for both classes, according to the rules.
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Presumably any 75/76/77 model that is recognised as a Pre-75 legal carry-over would be legal for both classes, according to the rules.
They're my thoughts as well. I'd like a precedent- be good if it was up QLD way...
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I don't think a pre '75 bike is in for pre'78 though, which is what the rule makers wanted, an example of different era, which is what I think MOMUS is alluding to? It would be opening yet another "can of worms". A 1975 CR125M is legal for pre'75 as a carry over model in standard form (where it belongs) but if you ride it in that class, I think that put's it out for pre'78. A modified CR125M (laid down shocks) would be in pre'78 though. I stand to be corrected, it's a good question.
If it were ok, a lot of pre'75 bikes would be seen in the pre'78 class & that just doesn't happen.
K
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Yes it could be possible to use a follow on model from Pre 75, in my opinion, but would you want to change the suspension between races and the prefix on the number plate.
In my opinion every bike in the Pre 78 class should have a "Z" on the number plates at least and the suspension would have to meet the travel limits for each class.
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The rules do not allow modified suspension on '75/'76 models even though back in '75, '76 & '77 there were heaps of bikes with modified LTR. Go figure! So unless you can buy 600mm shocks with 9" travel ::)
The generally accepted interpretation, we think, (what a wonderful way to write rules) of the rules as far as carry over follow on ( now reads much better) models is that it effectively makes a '75 CR125M into a '74 models as far as the rules are concerned. The intent of the rules seems to be to exclude Pre75 bikes from Pre78 so if the '75 CR125M is deemed a Pre75 bike it, by association, is out of Pre78.
13.14.5.2 Front wheel travel will not exceed 229mm
(9 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited
to 229mm (9 inches) measured at the
axle. Rear shock absorbers will be in
the original position using the original
mounting points
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I have a MK6 Pursang that i converted up to a MK7. The primitive suspension was too much for my 58 year old spine, so I put a MK 8 swingarm on and a set of Marzocchi forks from a 1977 KTM. In effect its a MK 8 Pursang which I think could have been put together in 1977 (if you wanted too!) and I believe its legal for Pre 78 as all the parts were available before that date (just!)It does shift on the right side which betrays the age of the motor 72/73. I noted on Sunday with gun rider Matt Rossignolli onboard it took care of Momus's RM 370 (except on the straights!) J
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Yes it could be possible to use a follow on model from Pre 75, in my opinion, but would you want to change the suspension between races and the prefix on the number plate.
In my opinion every bike in the Pre 78 class should have a "Z" on the number plates at least and the suspension would have to meet the travel limits for each class.
Thanks KTM. The bike would be ridden in Pre78 with 4/7 suspension so no travel issue there.
Jerry: I enjoyed tussling with Matt, made for a good day.
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As has been discussed so many times before, what we "know" the rules say, what we think the rules mean, and what the rules are accepted to mean, are all irrelevant.
What matters is what's written.
A 1975 Honda CR125 meets the rules for Pre-78, and is an accepted Pre-75 carry-over model.
There is no published reason why the one bike cannot be raced in both classes.
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Can't argue with Nathan's logic on that one, but if it were me, I'd be making some phone calls to clarify things.
K
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Agree with your logic Nathan.
That means the Bultaco described above is actually out ('72/73 engine and modified frame) the '75 CR125M must run in Pre78 with standard rear suspension mounts in place and used. This then conflicts with the fact a 1976-78 Suzuki TS400 which has the newer centre port engine and twin down tube frame (both introduced in 1976) is eligible for Pre75. While we try to apply logic the rules don't.
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Yes it could be possible to use a follow on model from Pre 75, in my opinion, but would you want to change the suspension between races and the prefix on the number plate.
In my opinion every bike in the Pre 78 class should have a "Z" on the number plates at least and the suspension would have to meet the travel limits for each class.
Thanks KTM. The bike would be ridden in Pre78 with 4/7 suspension so no travel issue there.
Jerry: I enjoyed tussling with Matt, made for a good day.
But would you change the prefix on the number plates? Also all that I have done is give an opinion. The club could reject the entry of the same bike in the two classes.
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Everyone also please note. The MoMS does not refer to carry over models, it is "follow on".
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The club could reject the entry of the same bike in the two classes.
On what grounds?
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The club could reject the entry of the same bike in the two classes.
On what grounds?
Heaven has for many years had a club rule of 'one bike one ERA' otherwise it would be very difficult to run our meetings.
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Indeed. HEAVEN has a published rule to that effect. ;)
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Everyone has a budget limit,
Everyone has a limit to trailer space etc,
No one in VMX has a Semi and entourage, not in Aus anyhow.
Its an attractive budget notion of having a bike that can be run in more than one class, for sure.
But, as Heaven has inferred there is a greater importance of fitting it all in on the limited time of a weekend.
Heaven VMX inc. is a great example of a state successfully catering for all VMX classes in the short space of a weekend.
Very competent.
As far as a "follow on" model though?
I believe there is no greater example of no change at all than the last of the 1974 LTR GP Maico's,
The ones with the pressed (with holes) upper forward rear shock mounts.
Picture is only an example to show upper rear shock mounts.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/Mitrion%20maico_II_zps7t4v63cb.jpg~original)
Indeed the only change in The MC motocross range was the chassis prefix from 394 to 395 on midnight 31/12/1974, regardless of 250/400/440(450) capacity, they were the prefixes and only changes in those capacities until the first FAILED wide frame(to accommodate the wider 5sp tranny), crapulent first internal fork spring, five speed, full of neutrals NG (new Generation) was introduced mid 75, the one we all assume is the 75 Maico, but in fact the mid year 1975 and a half.[/b ] was an an entirely new model as the model designation suggests.
The best example of an unchanged follow on model, there is Yoda.
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The failed 5sp New Generation model available mid 1975
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/7365152486_3eafb30a18_b_zpsbxrvtz38.jpg~original)
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An advert from a April 1975 Magazine Narrow Frame external fork spring 4speed
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/7365152442_d85c6f6e4b_z_zpsqf7c1krg.jpg~original)
Note; the incorrect pic of the upper rear shock mounts that Maico used(I guess they were very busy at the time) ???
I do have a Mag/pic/advert somewhere with the correct mounts(4sp) displayed in May 1975,,,,,,,,
Somewhere ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) some one else can go look though ;D
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Pre-78 rules say manufactured 75, 76 & 77 and within suspension travel limits. So a follow-on pre-75 bike is both pre-75 and pre-78 – no argument possible; anybody who says otherwise is twisting the rules to suit what they want
And just asking - do the Heaven rules of not being able to ride two classes mean that if I own a 77 Husky I can only ride in pre-78 or Evo but not both, and the mate who has 77 & 80 Huskies can ride in both classes? That's discrimination against somebody who can only stump up $ for one bike because the 77 Husky clearly fits both pre-78 and Evo – again no argument possible - as the redhead QLD girl would say "please explain?"
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Pre-78 rules say manufactured 75, 76 & 77 and within suspension travel limits. So a follow-on pre-75 bike is both pre-75 and pre-78 – no argument possible; anybody who says otherwise is twisting the rules to suit what they want
And just asking - do the Heaven rules of not being able to ride two classes mean that if I own a 77 Husky I can only ride in pre-78 or Evo but not both, and the mate who has 77 & 80 Huskies can ride in both classes? That's discrimination against somebody who can only stump up $ for one bike because the 77 Husky clearly fits both pre-78 and Evo – again no argument possible - as the redhead QLD girl would say "please explain?"
I'm with him ^^^^^^
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If I could only afford one bike and I wanted to ride it in both pre '75 and pre '78 , where the club rules allowed it , then a Can Am TNT 250 would be the bike I would choose . Although they are regarded as not one of the best handling bikes around , they have an awesome motor that would give most big bores a hurry up .
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HEAVEN runs three capacity classes for each era, plus an unlimited (all in) class.
So everyone gets at least two rides on each bike.
Plus most events have racing on Saturday (either trophy racing or the GP Series), so even the person who only has one bike can get plenty of ride & racing in.
It all works well, and complaints are very few and far between.
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The discussion has gone a bit side ways, Momus was referring to riding his pre '75 bike in both pre'75 & pre '78 at the upcoming National titles & while everyone has an opinion there's been no definitive answer. What happens at club level is a totally different scenario as there is no obligation by clubs to abide by the MA rules for national title events for their own club events, which in my mind is confusing for riders. A bike legal for a National title may not be legal at some club events & bikes which span a couple of era's may not be deemed eligible in multiple era's, however that is totally up to individual clubs.
I've not seen pre'75 bikes in pre'78 classes at National events, so "assume" it's not kosher, (unwritten rules/law or whatever) & have no problem with that, but as has been argued, there seems to be no written reason why it is not ok. The pre '78 rules are clear in saying restricted to '75/'76/77 bikes but can a follow on 1975 model deemed legal for pre '75 (essentially named as a 1974 model) be deemed a pre '78 bike IF ridden in BOTH classes? I personally think not as has been the standard for the past history of the classic nats & to me the answer is clear, but then I don't care as I don't want to ride my pre'75 bike in pre'78. On the other hand, I would want to ride my pre'78 bike in evo, which I do in my club.
K
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Unlike someone who races a 1975 Suzuki RM125S (pre '78 bike/no follow on rule), Momus has a choice in this case. He can choose to ride his bike as a pre '78 bike or he can use the follow on rule and deem it to be a pre '75 bike (essentially a 1974 model) under that clause in the MOMS. Once he makes that choice, he has a clear & concise answer. He in fact is the one who chooses what class he can ride his bike in. It seems simple to me.
K
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Without checking the rules, I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the rule book to support the "one bike, one class" idea.
I have a vague recollection of one of the CMX Commissioners riding a Pre-78 bike in both Pre-78 and Evo, back before the Nationals were split. Could be wrong.
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The thread heading is Pre75/78
I haven't seen where Momus has made mention of the "Nationals" only "Meeting".
Nor have I seen what model bike Momus is referring to?
I guess one has to be "in the loop" to know whats between the lines ???
Nice if we were all psychic.
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Whilst I don't agree with it if you want to ride Heaven then you follow their rules and if it works for them okay - but it begs the questions:
* Mate and I pool $ for a pre-75 "follow-on" bike and I race it pre-75 and the mate races it pre-78 – must be ok
and
* Mate and I pool $ for a 77 Husky (with "nutted" suspension) and I race it pre-78 and the mate races Evo (restricted Heaven version) – must be ok
Makes a joke of the rules when 2 people can do what one person can't, anyway them's the Heaven rules and if you don't want to play you do something else
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Momus may not have mentioned the Nationals Mick D, but that is crystal clear to me, perhaps others. He also asked for an example of a precedent, from Queensland if possible. The precedent that has been set for a zillion years (Australia wide) is that a pre'75 bike cannot be ridden in the pre'78 class at a national title event. All Momus has to do is decide in which class he wants to ride his bike that is ok for pre'75 under the follow on rule, pre'75 OR pre'78. Can't have his cake & eat it to. If he chooses to ride the bike in pre'75 he can ride 2 classes, pre'75 capacity class & pre'75 age group class. If he chooses pre'78 he can ride 1 class, pre'78 capacity class. If he's not talking about the upcoming classic nats, this whole thread is moot, as individual clubs are under no obligation to abide by the MOMS for a national title event at their own clubs.
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Possibly I am way off?
But I think Heaven may have adopted this approach
Because, when making up the program based on PRE-ENTRY numbers,
If one class has low entry numbers on the day?
It may indeed be run with another of low entry numbers (two birds with one stone)
Scored at end according to race number prefix?
The next race already waiting on the grid to jump as soon as the track is clear.
It is amazing how much they fit in, in an organised non-confusing manner.
And as Nathan has said
HEAVEN runs three capacity classes for each era, plus an unlimited (all in) class.
So everyone gets at least two rides on each bike.
Plus most events have racing on Saturday (either trophy racing or the GP Series), so even the person who only has one bike can get plenty of ride & racing in.
It all works well, and complaints are very few and far between.
Plenty of Extra opportunity for rides
Heaven also run,,,
Classic GP – 15 Min + 1 Lap
AND
Post Classic GP – 15 Min + 1 Lap
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... riding a Pre-78 bike in both Pre-78 and Evo, ...
Pre-78 is a period class. A bike is only eligible for one Period This I was told by the Commissioner who was The Eligibility Scrutineer at the Nationals.
Evo is not a period class. It is for any bike or components from Classic or Post Classic Era that comply.
Therefore no problem with a bike being eligible for Pre-78 and Evo. Or for Pre-75 and Evo. Or for Pre-85 and Evo. Etc.
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... riding a Pre-78 bike in both Pre-78 and Evo, ...
Pre-78 is a period class. A bike is only eligible for one Period This I was told by the Commissioner who was The Eligibility Scrutineer at the Nationals.
Evo is not a period class. It is for any bike or components from Classic or Post Classic Era that comply.
Therefore no problem with a bike being eligible for Pre-78 and Evo. Or for Pre-75 and Evo. Or for Pre-85 and Evo. Etc.
I have always wondered why that was?
Great explanation, thanks.
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It seems there's a bit of confusion with a few posts advocating/defending Heaven's stance on the one bike/one era thing while questioning the same at a national title? Heaven's constitution was/is not in question here, that's their own business & unless I'm mistaken Momus was & is referring to the upcoming classic nationals, perhaps he should clarify.
K
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As Big K suggests I'm referring to the Classic Nationals but the bike in question is not my old Elsinore. The BMCC have added a Pre 78 4 Stroke all powers support and as well there is Pre 75 Solo 4 stroke All Powers. I have entered a K1 XR75- built from a frame Mick sold me from his pile- that could do both these classes.
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OK, I was wrong then,,
Not even a phychic could have pulled that one out of a crystal ball ;D
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Send someone from BMCC an email & ask. Being a support class it may well be ok. I guess the other issue you may have in both classes is a mini in amongst full size bikes? Is that ok regardless of era eligibility?
K
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The reason for a Pre78 4str"support" for the Classic Nats was there was a request from Victoria that a group of TT/XT Yamahas would like to enter Pre78 263+ and was there a way for a separate ride. I won't enter in to the CR125 carry over being able to ride P75 and P78, and at this point no one has entered such. The eligibility scrutineer is from WA, and I suggest the question be put to MA pronto for a ruling on the XR75.
We are running per the MOMS so you can rode up an era EXCEPT into Pre78.
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Pre-78 rules say manufactured 75, 76 & 77 and within suspension travel limits. So a follow-on pre-75 bike is both pre-75 and pre-78 – no argument possible; anybody who says otherwise is twisting the rules to suit what they want
And just asking - do the Heaven rules of not being able to ride two classes mean that if I own a 77 Husky I can only ride in pre-78 or Evo but not both, and the mate who has 77 & 80 Huskies can ride in both classes? That's discrimination against somebody who can only stump up $ for one bike because the 77 Husky clearly fits both pre-78 and Evo – again no argument possible - as the redhead QLD girl would say "please explain?"
Does anyone actually read posts before commenting.
Heaven VMX has a Club Rule, and has done for at least 10 years, that allows a rider to enter a bike in two classes within one era only. So from your example a '77 Husky 250 can enter either Pre78 or Pre82 or Pre85 or Pre90 for that matter BUT NOT more than one. Usually a rider with that bike would enter Pre78 All Powers and Pre78 250. This means they would have 4 races for the day along with 2 - 3 hours of practice on Saturday. What the MOMS wording is on this matter is irrelevant and it works for our club.
Our meetings run with rider marshaling so if riders were to show up with one bike and ride every ERA we could not run the meeting. As our club averages over 80 riders per meeting(this weekend we have 105 riders at Cessnock and 119 recently at Gloucester). This club rule does not seem to be too restrictive.
Should your club have a similar rule? Who knows it is completely up to your clubs membership surely.
If you don't like that rule it is completely OK and is your prerogative to do so as I am sure there are rules at your club that many would find unpalatable. The Heaven Club is not concerned either way we just get on with it.
This type of post is exactly why the larger clubs within VMX are using this site less and less. Hopefully your club provides its membership with an excellent program which is supported by its members and with luck expands its member base.
End of comment on this thread ::)
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Well said Heaven - and understood - so at Heaven its ok for one bike to be shared between two riders in different classes - thanks for clearing that up.
And yes - we do read what is said and that often leads to contextual Q's, that's how "threads" work; as said thanks for answering, appreciated
Interesting to note the different "management" in Vic and maybe other States? (not saying it's better - just different) where the club/track gets a fee for providing flaggies or volunteers are used and that frees up riders for a lot more rides if they want (or can!)
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Seriously? All this fuss, even if it is interesting to read, is for an XR75 being entered at a national competition?
I know there are some pretty quick XR75's out there but it is still a MINI bike. There is a place for big blokes on little bikes to have their fun, but I don't think a National Title event is one of them. I'd be very surprised if the XR is allowed to enter among a field of full capacity bikes.
Just my opinion....nothing more ;D
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Seriously? All this fuss, even if it is interesting to read, is for an XR75 being entered at a national competition?
I know there are some pretty quick XR75's out there but it is still a MINI bike. There is a place for big blokes on little bikes to have their fun, but I don't think a National Title event is one of them. I'd be very surprised if the XR is allowed to enter among a field of full capacity bikes.
Just my opinion....nothing more ;D
XR 75 ran at Coff Nats 2006 ? at was up there .
I got kicked out of all in 4 stroke on Dodgeys XR 75 a couple of years later reason being it was a mini bike . I was running mid pack but was told it wasnt allowed .
So theres a contradiction ::)
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Interesting the question of so called MINI BIKES in classes. Lets look at this RE the Classic MX section of the MoMS.
1. There are no restrictions on wheel sizes. No mention at all, but as an example in the MX Junior section where wheel sizes are given the 125 class sizes 17 to 21 front and 16 to 19 rear. This permits a 100 BW into the 125 class. But again no restrictions in the Classic MX rules.
2. The 125 classes for Classic Aust MX Champs all state "up to 125cc" so that is 1cc to 125cc plus 5%.
3. Also note the 125 classes for Post Classic all state "125cc" so it can be agrued that that means 125cc plus or minus 5%.
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My feeling is a mini won't be able to run with full size bikes, not from a performance aspect, more of a safety aspect. Unless your the size of a 10 year old, adults on mini's is all wrong, they are simply not made for it and in my opinion an accident waiting to happen. I for one would be ragged at getting involved in an incident with an adult riding a mini in any race, let alone a national title race, not that the classes Momus want to ride in affects me. I am a cranky old prick though. Mini's aren't allowed in the same race as full size bikes in modern MX, even though half the kids who ride them are more than capable of kicking an old guys arse. I will be interested to see the ruling on this.
K
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My feeling is a mini won't be able to run with full size bikes, not from a performance aspect, more of a safety aspect. Unless your the size of a 10 year old, adults on mini's is all wrong, they are simply not made for it and in my opinion an accident waiting to happen. I for one would be ragged at getting involved in an incident with an adult riding a mini in any race, let alone a national title race, not that the classes Momus want to ride in affects me. I am a cranky old prick though. Mini's aren't allowed in the same race as full size bikes in modern MX, even though half the kids who ride them are more than capable of kicking an old guys arse. I will be interested to see the ruling on this.
K
Wrong!!!! A Big Wheel 100cc is allowed in so called Modern Junior 125 classes and the classes for MX chapter 12 all state the lower classes as up to 250cc.
Please note the so called modern 85cc 2/-s and 150cc 4/-s are probably bigger and more powerful than the Pre 75 and older 125s.
Also please note the reason these classes are up to is simple. Some vertically challenged riders prefer to ride and race bikes they can touch the ground on. In particular female riders.
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Was it Les Barfoot on the XR75 at the 2006 Coffs Nats?
Once again, we have rules that are written, rules we think are written, rules we think should be written and other nonsense.
Regardless of any personal opinions or moralising, only the written rules have any standing.
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Les has raced his XR75+ succesfully at National level. There are other examples as well.
Conventional wisdom and painful personal experience has that a half litre 2 stroke MXer is much more dangerous than a close to the ground, light and low powered mini.
At the VCM Yarram round last year the first 5 or 6 of the modern 85 cc minis running as supports, were clearing the 50 or so foot tabletop. I saw one classic bike out of about 60, an RM370 piloted by a young A grader, clear it a couple of times.
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Nothing like being shouted at over the internet, thanks KTM, but I am allowed an opinion, plus an XR75 is far from a big wheel 85. So Momus is all good to go then? Sweet, I'll be there watching it amongst the rest of the 4 strokes.
K
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Nothing like being shouted at over the internet, thanks KTM, but I am allowed an opinion, plus an XR75 is far from a big wheel 85. So Momus is all good to go then? Sweet, I'll be there watching it amongst the rest of the 4 strokes.
K
Sorry was I shouting. I didn't use capitals or bold.
Has anyone picked up on the other thing I said.
While the Classic classes are stated as up to 125 the Post Classic are just 125.
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I've discussed it with the entrant, no problems, no grey area, all covered by the rule,
all happy, end of story
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Also please note the reason these classes are up to is simple. Some vertically challenged riders prefer to ride and race bikes they can touch the ground on. In particular female riders.
Has anyone picked up on the other thing I said.
Yes stirrer ..all women are short ass's and all pre78 bikes are the same too ::) :D :) :P
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Good point, buddy 8)
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Interesting the question of so called MINI BIKES in classes. Lets look at this RE the Classic MX section of the MoMS.
1. There are no restrictions on wheel sizes. No mention at all, but as an example in the MX Junior section where wheel sizes are given the 125 class sizes 17 to 21 front and 16 to 19 rear. This permits a 100 BW into the 125 class. But again no restrictions in the Classic MX rules.
2. The 125 classes for Classic Aust MX Champs all state "up to 125cc" so that is 1cc to 125cc plus 5%.
3. Also note the 125 classes for Post Classic all state "125cc" so it can be agrued that that means 125cc plus or minus 5%.
Any personal thoughts aside, thems the rules to go by.
Have fun on the XR Marcus. As an afterthought, if your worried about to much power and weight, why not stick the XR75 motor in the RM370 frame?
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Also please note the reason these classes are up to is simple. Some vertically challenged riders prefer to ride and race bikes they can touch the ground on. In particular female riders.
Has anyone picked up on the other thing I said.
Yes stirrer ..all women are short ass's and all pre78 bikes are the same too ::) :D :) :P
No that is not what I said. There are men whose bums are too close to the seat too. A former President of MCWA is one. I was also pointing that while the Classic rules do permit any capacity under 125 the Post Classic rules don't.
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you guys still crack me up, :P
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
Kevvy is just quoting what is written in the GCR. Anything Pre 78 can compete on UP TO 125cc. Anything Post Classic must be 125cc. However if you want to compete in Pre 75 Age races you must have a 125cc. There is no provision for UP TO in Age classes. Go figure
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
5% of 125cc is 6.25cc
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
Kevvy is just quoting what is written in the GCR. Anything Pre 78 can compete on UP TO 125cc. Anything Post Classic must be 125cc. However if you want to compete in Pre 75 Age races you must have a 125cc. There is no provision for UP TO in Age classes. Go figure
Read what13.5.0.3 says. it says All Powers (Unlimited) or Capacity Classes, which are up to 125cc.
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
5% of 125cc is 6.25cc
I didn't say anything about how big they could be. Your interpretation of the rules as you said above for post classic is that a 125 has to be 125cc so anything either side of that is not eligable by your definition.
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3. Also note the 125 classes for Post Classic all state "125cc" so it can be agrued that that means 125cc plus or minus 5%.
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
5% of 125cc is 6.25cc
I didn't say anything about how big they could be. Your interpretation of the rules as you said above for post classic is that a 125 has to be 125cc so anything either side of that is not eligable by your definition.
You blokes must have some work to do in the shed... how's your RM370 going Kev?
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
5% of 125cc is 6.25cc
I didn't say anything about how big they could be. Your interpretation of the rules as you said above for post classic is that a 125 has to be 125cc so anything either side of that is not eligable by your definition.
You blokes must have some work to do in the shed... how's your RM370 going Kev?
Doctor told me not to work till my elbow is better.
Kevin the engine size rules say only 5% over the is no minus. Same wording is used for 250 classes as well which would have to exclude thing like PE175's DT175's and IT175 and 200.
Common sence would indicate that even though the wording "up to" has not been added that it is implied or your work as a measurer will be tested.
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This is why the Motocross classes are stated as up to 250cc and 255cc to 450 etc (the tolerance is 2%). That is for Supercross. Am I the measurer somewhere?
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Nothing like being shouted at over the internet, thanks KTM, but I am allowed an opinion, plus an XR75 is far from a big wheel 85. So Momus is all good to go then? Sweet, I'll be there watching it amongst the rest of the 4 strokes.
K
Sorry was I shouting. I didn't use capitals or bold.
Has anyone picked up on the other thing I said.
While the Classic classes are stated as up to 125 the Post Classic are just 125.
Kevvy, check out the GCR's now. Since you've quite correctly pointed out that Pre 78 125 has no provision for UP TO someone has snuck in there and changed the wording to read UP TO 125. Who would have thought, just in time for the Nats.
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
5% of 125cc is 6.25cc
I didn't say anything about how big they could be. Your interpretation of the rules as you said above for post classic is that a 125 has to be 125cc so anything either side of that is not eligable by your definition.
You blokes must have some work to do in the shed... how's your RM370 going Kev?
Doctor told me not to work till my elbow is better.
Kevin the engine size rules say only 5% over the is no minus. Same wording is used for 250 classes as well which would have to exclude thing like PE175's DT175's and IT175 and 200.
Common sence would indicate that even though the wording "up to" has not been added that it is implied or your work as a measurer will be tested.
Yes George, you are partly correct the wording of the GCR does say "may not exceed the prescribed capacity for that class by more than 5%. There is no mention of lower tolerance, however it does say tolerances. So that can indicate a lower and upper tolerance.
Also you do not really understand the role of a measurer. Their job is to accurately measurer something and give a report to the CofC, who can then decide any penalities.
In my opinion the classes for Classic/Post Classic MX/DT need to be better defined.
1. The names of the classes should be as they were back in the day 125, 250 & 500.
2. Then the capacities for those classes should then be defined.
a) 125 (up to 125)
b) 250 (131 to 250)
c) 500 (263 and over)
That way once each class is defined the simple terms 125, 250 and 500 can be used for everything
I also think Classic Dirt Track needs another class maybe 650 and over twins. Or maybe 500.
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Nothing like being shouted at over the internet, thanks KTM, but I am allowed an opinion, plus an XR75 is far from a big wheel 85. So Momus is all good to go then? Sweet, I'll be there watching it amongst the rest of the 4 strokes.
K
Sorry was I shouting. I didn't use capitals or bold.
Has anyone picked up on the other thing I said.
While the Classic classes are stated as up to 125 the Post Classic are just 125.
Kevvy, check out the GCR's now. Since you've quite correctly pointed out that Pre 78 125 has no provision for UP TO someone has snuck in there and changed the wording to read UP TO 125. Who would have thought, just in time for the Nats.
Ted The 2016 GCRs 13.1 has got Pre 78 as up to 125 (I have a printed copy). It always did. What you asked previously was RE the Pre 75 age groups which still only say 125/250/ 263 plus.
This is why I believe the classes should just be called 125, 250 and 500 which another rule just defining what those classes are. That way they don't have to be defined everytime they are mentioned in the GCRs.
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Almost all 125's stock are 123cc so Kevin you are saying that they have to be bored out a little to race post classic?
5% of 125cc is 6.25cc
I didn't say anything about how big they could be. Your interpretation of the rules as you said above for post classic is that a 125 has to be 125cc so anything either side of that is not eligable by your definition.
You blokes must have some work to do in the shed... how's your RM370 going Kev?
Doctor told me not to work till my elbow is better.
Kevin the engine size rules say only 5% over the is no minus. Same wording is used for 250 classes as well which would have to exclude thing like PE175's DT175's and IT175 and 200.
Common sence would indicate that even though the wording "up to" has not been added that it is implied or your work as a measurer will be tested.
Yes George, you are partly correct the wording of the GCR does say "may not exceed the prescribed capacity for that class by more than 5%. There is no mention of lower tolerance, however it does say tolerances. So that can indicate a lower and upper tolerance.
Also you do not really understand the role of a measurer. Their job is to accurately measurer something and give a report to the CofC, who can then decide any penalities.
In my opinion the classes for Classic/Post Classic MX/DT need to be better defined.
1. The names of the classes should be as they were back in the day 125, 250 & 500.
2. Then the capacities for those classes should then be defined.
a) 125 (up to 125)
b) 250 (131 to 250)
c) 500 (263 and over)
That way once each class is defined the simple terms 125, 250 and 500 can be used for everything
I also think Classic Dirt Track needs another class maybe 650 and over twins. Or maybe 500.
That is very logical and would be completely clear for all.
Unfortunately Kevin that makes the assumption that the rule makers want the rules to be clear, unambiguous and easily interpreted when in fact history clearly shows that is not the case.
The rules have been altered progressively and often in minor ways over time to become completely unclear, open to interpretation or indeed mute on important details.
When you read the rules and go back over past MOMS you can only come to the conclusion that this has been a consistent direction taken. Is it wrong? Obviously the rule makers do not believe it is wrong.
Take these examples. I would like anyone to define what 'considerate of era' for Pre60 and Pre65 frames means or equally to define what is or is not a replica part or even if replica parts are legal. This is not referring to what we understand the rules to mean it relates to what is actually written in the rules.
If you read the rules as written for Pre75 bikes then all components must be up to and including 1974 models. Now taken as written even the hand grips and tyres must be 1974 models obviously we know that is not practical but the rules are clear or are they?
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This is why I put a rule proposal in to define what was open to change eg
Shocks
Fork internal (exterior to stay the same)
Ignitions
Foot pegs etc etc
Either way I will continue to call the classes what they were, 125, 250 and 500.