OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: evo550 on July 19, 2015, 07:40:25 pm
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Wow, just saw the video on FB.
A bobcat on the track at the down ramp of a table top, Mossy hit it full noise, lucky to be alive....
How does this happen at a National event?
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is he Ok?
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http://fullnoise.com.au/news/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_full&news_id=20407&Ntitle=MX+Nationals%3A+Matt+Moss+Hospitalised+After+Crashing+Into+Track+Machinery+At+Shepparton
WTF
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is he Ok?
Apparently, broke most his ribs and a wrist..
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Sometimes in racing, shit just happens. This does not appear to be one of those times.
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Yes we all hope he is OK,everyone's worst nightmare.Those people and clubs that organise and officiate in events will take a step back,and wait for the outcome of the investigation.You really do need eyes in the back of your head!and 200% communication.
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Seeing that video makes my blood boil. I hope Matt is going to ride again.
There could quite easily have been a coroner present at that track today.
I'd be hoping one of his recommendations would have be to outlaw uncontrolled (flagged) blind landing jumps in MX.
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Seeing that video makes my blood boil. I hope Matt is going to ride again.
There could quite easily have been a coroner present at that track today.
I'd be hoping one of his recommendations would have be to outlaw uncontrolled (flagged) blind landing jumps in MX.
We don't need more rules. Don't give nanna any ideas.
You can't moron proof the world. (But keeping them out of positions of power has merit.)
A sickening crash that should not have happened.
I wish Matt a speedy and complete recovery.
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I can see how this could happen without any big screwups from any particular person - it could be the culmination of just a couple of small & "reasonable" mistakes (use your imagination).
But it still beggars belief that it could happen in the premier class at the modern national titles. That it's happened to the reigning champ is even more incredible.
I can see some "interesting" legal shenanigans coming from this.
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Shocking thing to have happened and hope he heals up okay.
The sort of accident that could screw with your head if you let it.
As much as I dislike blind landing jumps I don't see that it was the cause of this accident.
It's easy to think the Bobcat driver was to blame but he could be well thinking what was the rider doing on the track when they asked me to go fix it?
Two sides to every fence.
Communication with the starter and others on the track is often done by flag so signals could be easily misread, although you would think a National event would have had an abundance of radios.
Reminds me of back in the 80's when I was practicing at Broadmeadows motorcycle track, came around a corner down out the back into a bit of a dip and came face to face with a front end loader.
I was lucky to have had the time to brake to avoid the bucket teeth by the skin of my nylons, when I told him if he needed to be out here he should have had someone flag everyone to a stop he told me to F off as he could drive it anywhere he wanted.
I'm sure that place used workers that had to do community service a lot of the time!
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That is a really shocking incident to have happen alright! The hit was hard, you can see the Bobcat move backwards from the impact.
One thing I have always noticed about Heaven NSW, is their consistency of making sure the track is clear before every start and there are a lot of starts. Marshals are positioned so that the track is in full view. All flag marshals have radios. The process is religiously adhered to and very professional.
It would be difficult for most victims to emerge from this without a deep Anger. It shouldn't have happened at any level.
Disgusting.
No doubt we would all wish Matt Moss the very best of care and a full eventual recovery, good luck and fingers crossed for you Matt.
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There will be a lot of things come out of this. But number one is I hope Matt recovers completely.
The things we all need to consider now are.
1. A MX track is a work area and the rules for safety need to be applied. Don't let machinery onto tracks unless it is secure to do so.
2. Don't let riders or even other people into the track area while machines are working. Skid Steers (bobcats) often work going backwards and the operators have limited vision. Walking the track while machines are working should not be permitted.
3. Communication is the key to everything.
I won't speculate on what happened. I'm sure MA and WEM will investigate fully.
Get well soon Matt.
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No doubt he truth will be found.
The track should be closed before any machinery is instructed or sent out.
That is what NSW VMX do.
No one is allowed out there whilst preparation or repairs are being done and the track is not reopened until the machinery has returned.
Simple and I until now imagined it would be the norm across the board.
I have seen this next video a few times and thought that such a lack of common sense viewed by so many as he passed last week could never happen again on a race track >:(
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=818_1412603603 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=818_1412603603)
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...Especially considering Jules Bianchi died last week as a result of that crash.
Speculating: I'm wondering if Moss wasn't supposed to be on the track, or if race command had lost track of him (and thought he was off the track).
While it's easy to see how communication issues could have ended up with bike and bobcat sharing the track, it's much harder to see how he wasn't flagged down before committing to that jump.
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I was at the Brisbane super x about 4yrs back when Millsaps was riding and I'm pretty sure it was one of the Moss brothers that hit some trackside equipment that night and ended up in the ambo. Its not good enough. You can't fix stupid!
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I was there but missed the incident as I was unloading bikes for the retro display behind a viewing mound,I saw him in mid flight then disappear from view then a thud was heard followed by the crowd collectively expleting various ooh's ah's & other comments,I quickly sprinted up the bank & asked WTF happened?
I believe he was on a superpole lap or whatever they call it, Lucky only one bike at a time I think,Imagine the carnage if the whole field was out there.
This shit should not happen no matter what >:(
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I was told by someone who was there that Matt was sent off on his super pole hot lap, if so it can't be any fault of his. I heard broken, leg, wrist & all his ribs. He's in a world of hurt no matter what. It's a huge deal & I don't think you can blame the fork up fairy on this one.
K
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Someone is going to be in trouble , his lucky to be alive still
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Do they have flaggies for super pole?
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Happened before (Graeme Morris hit the traveling marshal while leading at Bathurst in 85/86 or so) to this hopefully something good comes from it and Matt Moss makes a full recovery.
God Speed
Jules Bianchi
RIP
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I'm told there was a flaggie at the jump, the plot thickens.
K
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I was there and saw the incident first hand.
Standing at the club canteen I heard the announcement that Matt Moss was about to start his super poll lap. I turned around to see Matt in full flight over the finish line jump. As I'm watching, I see him starting to "scrub" the bike as he is coming in for landing and I thought he was riding to the ninth degree until the bobcat came into view. Before I could even think WTF, Luckily (great crash management) for Matt he managed to get the bike to ground before impact. The noise was sickening. The sight was unbelievable. The rear tyre of the bobcat actually blew, the impact was that hard.
To try and blame the Bobcat operator is so far off the mark it's not cricket.....The bobcat was called onto the track BEFORE Mossy was called to start his hot lap which is why I was at the canteen. There's no point in watching a bobcat right?
No doubt the poor bugger in the bobcat feels bad enough as it is. I hope the operator isn't being too harsh on himself.
The fault lies squarely with clerk of the course first hand and with race control up in the tower who have line of sight of the entire track. The control tower is at the jump where the accident happened! All the "important" types around the track had communication devices. Red flags should of been on display as the track was quite obviously not clear. Yep, there was a flaggie at the jump. What they were doing, only they know?
I used to ride in the same club as the Moss brothers and watched both boys come up through the ranks so I know the boys fairly well.
I know how tough Matt is and I hope he has a speedy recovery. I wish you well Matt.
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Plot thickens all right.
I'd best recant my previous aspersions regarding machinery being operated by morons, and accept being the ass I've made myself, by assuming.
It sounds like a dreadful event that shouldn't have happened.
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I was there and saw the incident first hand.
Standing at the club canteen I heard the announcement that Matt Moss was about to start his super poll lap. I turned around to see Matt in full flight over the finish line jump. As I'm watching, I see him starting to "scrub" the bike as he is coming in for landing and I thought he was riding to the ninth degree until the bobcat came into view. Before I could even think WTF, Luckily (great crash management) for Matt he managed to get the bike to ground before impact. The noise was sickening. The sight was unbelievable. The rear tyre of the bobcat actually blew, the impact was that hard.
To try and blame the Bobcat operator is so far off the mark it's not cricket.....The bobcat was called onto the track BEFORE Mossy was called to start his hot lap which is why I was at the canteen. There's no point in watching a bobcat right?
No doubt the poor bugger in the bobcat feels bad enough as it is. I hope the operator isn't being too harsh on himself.
The fault lies squarely with clerk of the course first hand and with race control up in the tower who have line of sight of the entire track. The control tower is at the jump where the accident happened! All the "important" types around the track had communication devices. Red flags should of been on display as the track was quite obviously not clear. Yep, there was a flaggie at the jump. What they were doing, only they know?
I used to ride in the same club as the Moss brothers and watched both boys come up through the ranks so I know the boys fairly well.
I know how tough Matt is and I hope he has a speedy recovery. I wish you well Matt.
Good to get a clear and concise account of what went down from someone who actually saw it happen .
Dreadful business but finger pointing without knowing the facts is ignorant at best so its nice in a macabre sort of way to hear the facts as presented above .
Wishing Matt Moss a speedy and full recovery and many championships to come .
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Anyone who was a witness should ring MA and offer to give them their story.
To everyone else stop speculating. There will be a full investigation and the facts will come out.
We don't need to know everything and most statements on here are speculation.
Even the statement on Matt's facebook page is not pointing a finger.
Hopefully Matt will make a full recovery.
Get well soon Matt.
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It's human nature to seek answers. Open speculation is a healthy and positive exercise, providing it doesn't pretend to be fact. Thinking about, and discusing what happened (and why) also makes us all better at understanding and avoiding the risks in our own lives.
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It's human nature to seek answers. Open speculation is a healthy and positive exercise, providing it doesn't pretend to be fact. Thinking about, and discusing what happened (and why) also makes us all better at understanding and avoiding the risks in our own lives.
Without any knowledge of this particular incident:
It is human nature to watch the riders coming towards you. The exact opposite of what a flag marshell should be doing.
The number of times I've yelled "look behind you" at marshals standing with their back to carnage....watching riders accelerate towards the them....
More training?
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One rider on the track. Surely the flaggie could hear the bobcat only a few metres away?
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Flaggies are there to warn other riders that someone is down
There's a Bobcat on the track, therefore there is no need to do any marshalling.
Purely speculation, they may have walked off to get a drink or greasy burger from the other marshal on the Quad as it was a quiet moment because as far as they knew the track was closed!
If the whole pack was coming they may have been more alert.
I always find this one rider on the track thing as boring as batshit
Spectators may not have been taking any notice at this part of the track either because the Bobcat was out or because they too find the one rider thing boring.
Accidents usually happen for a number of reasons that accumulate together, it is rarely down to just one circumstance.
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It is human nature to rubber neck and this is what you are all doing.
Pull your heads in.
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Geez Kevin, someone or many stuffed up big time & someone is lucky to be alive as a result. Have you not been on a motocross track lately & put your faith in those doing the organising? No one is pointing fingers just asking some very legitimate questions, you should pull your head in.
K
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Official statement as posted on RacerX, points the finger at the bobcat operator.
racerxonline.com/2015/07/19/matt-moss-hospitalized-after-colliding-with-machinery-on-track?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook
Rubbernecking would be watching the video over and over, and maybe reposting it, without actually putting any thought into it.
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No one is pointing a finger. Have you read all the posts. Also read the official MA press release and Matt's Facebook page. Stop speculating.
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Yep, I've read all the posts, nothing much out of order there, all fair discussion. Questions need to be raised.
K
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It is human nature to rubber neck and this is what you are all doing.
Pull your heads in.
It is a human evolutionary imperative to take careful notice of things that have harmed or killed others.
Those who didn't learn the lessons didn't get to reproduce.
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The statement says "a piece of undirected machinery entered the track causing a collision..." (my bold).
The statement is very clearly claiming that the bobcat operator was not directed to be there, and clearly, directly placing the blame on the bobcat operator.
Whether either of these things are false or correct remains to be seen by us plebs, but the claims are in the public domain.
I don't know why you're so defensive about this. Is KW a mate of yours?
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No wash your mouth out.
I am just sick of the way people on so called social media stick their noses in and speculate.
No more from me.
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I get as annoyed as anyone when people imagine shit and then present it as fact.
This is not what's happening here.
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Hey guys, probably would be best to let this one drop. No worthwhile purpose can be served by inviting further comment on this topic, in fact it could possibly draw unwanted attention to the issue of track maintenance equipment and operators of said equipment that we all enjoy the benefit of at our club days. I think you all know where I am going with this. I am sure that process refinement will follow as a result.
Cheers
Nick
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Unfortunately MX has gone the same way as most modern sports. There was no track grooming in the old days. In speedway now you watch the tractor go around more times than the bikes and that from club to sgp level. Footballers don't play in muddy conditions anymore. Build the track, do nothing for the day other than water.
Rosco 86
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I like watching technical rides but when you are looking at this sort of hairy stuff it's probably in order. A section of the Shepparton track:
(http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah84/msfracingcomponentsmus/MX%20Nats%20track%20shepp%207%202015_zpsjnvln0et.jpg)
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The cynic in me somehow knew the bobcat operator would wear the brunt of the blame for this ridiculous and totally avoidable situation. Now two lives will forever be changed.
I saw with my own 2 eyes the bobcat being directed onto the track.....To do what I don't know but the poor guy didn't just decide to park the bobcat at the base of the jump for something to do.
There were at least 4 officials standing near the bobcat and not one of them could even bothered to run to the top of the jump to stop Matt. They all would of heard the announcement that Matt was starting his hot lap.
Talk about a world of dumb and dumber.
I'm not speculating here. I saw what I saw and not one individual on this planet will get me to "see things differently"
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well if that's the case and if you feel strongly about it i suggest you let it known what you saw on as many outlets as possible, i am not in the loop but from reading this sounds like the official's are ready to use the bobcat driver as a scapegoat.
Not a good scene, surely they would have heard the bike and could have stopped the accident.
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Hey guys, probably would be best to let this one drop. No worthwhile purpose can be served by inviting further comment on this topic, in fact it could possibly draw unwanted attention to the issue of track maintenance equipment and operators of said equipment that we all enjoy the benefit of at our club days. I think you all know where I am going with this. I am sure that process refinement will follow as a result.
Cheers
Nick
I repeat
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I know some people are upset by the debate,but I think the conversation is worth having.I feel extremely sorry for Matt and everyone else involved,hopefully his injuries will heal,and he can continue his career.
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Not a good scene, surely they would have heard the bike and could have stopped the accident.
Bobcats run at a constant high throttle when working so a single bike may not have been heard till the last seconds
Also they were working on the down ramp so the jump would have blocked their view.
Not laying blame
Not making excuses
Just looking at the big picture
and no I wasn't there
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I feel for the Bobcat driver , regardless of resposibility im sure he will feel like shit its human nature .
When another human being is hurt as a result of colliding with somthing you are in charge of you will feel bad.
Wishing Matt a speedy recovery and spare a thought for that Bobcat driver .
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I wasn't there but I find it hard to believe (impossible) that the bobcat operator went on the track off his own bat, he had to have been directed to do so by someone higher up the command chain. Nothing else makes any sense. Mark has just stated it as fact anyway. Just my opinion.
K
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I wasn't there but I find it hard to believe (impossible) that the bobcat operator went on the track off his own bat, he had to have been directed to do so by someone higher up the command chain. Nothing else makes any sense. Mark has just stated it as fact anyway. Just my opinion.
K
It is fact Micheal.
And as for blaming the bobcat operator, we all know that crap flows downhill.
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Hey guys, probably would be best to let this one drop. No worthwhile purpose can be served by inviting further comment on this topic, in fact it could possibly draw unwanted attention to the issue of track maintenance equipment and operators of said equipment that we all enjoy the benefit of at our club days. I think you all know where I am going with this. I am sure that process refinement will follow as a result.
Cheers
Nick
I repeat
This incident and the inevitable fall out from it, is way bigger than ANY discussion we have here.
The ball is set in motion. The absolute limit of possible influence of this forum is that we might (but probably won't) suggest paths for the investigators to look at.
And it's not like we're the only forum discussing it - and this is definitely one of the more measured discussions.
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Not a good scene, surely they would have heard the bike and could have stopped the accident.
Bobcats run at a constant high throttle when working so a single bike may not have been heard till the last seconds
Also they were working on the down ramp so the jump would have blocked their view.
Not laying blame
Not making excuses
Just looking at the big picture
and no I wasn't there
The Bobcat wasn't doing any work at the time Geoff. It was sitting idle. As a matter of fact, for whatever reason the bobcat was called onto the track for had not even began....It just sat idle at the base of the jump.
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Hey guys, probably would be best to let this one drop. No worthwhile purpose can be served by inviting further comment on this topic, in fact it could possibly draw unwanted attention to the issue of track maintenance equipment and operators of said equipment that we all enjoy the benefit of at our club days. I think you all know where I am going with this. I am sure that process refinement will follow as a result.
Cheers
Nick
I repeat Bobcats can dig holes and I guess only time will tell if this thread will help to do the same.
Adding any fuel to the fire, in my opinion, can only be detrimental. No more from me on this topic.
This incident and the inevitable fall out from it, is way bigger than ANY discussion we have here.
The ball is set in motion. The absolute limit of possible influence of this forum is that we might (but probably won't) suggest paths for the investigators to look at.
And it's not like we're the only forum discussing it - and this is definitely one of the more measured discussions.
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What's happened has happened. It's far too big and far too visible to be swept under the carpet.
I think you're massively overestimating the influence of this forum, and apparently massively underestimating the significance of the reigning national champ being put in a life-threatening situation at a national event.
Any form of risk assessment process would put this firmly in the "oh shit" category - we're all just lucky it wasn't a fatality.
The only point of significance (to the inquiry) to come from this thread is that one member witnessed it first hand and could/should be another useful source of info.
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I am curious why anyone would request silence on this topic - especially considering there are quite a few motorcycle club committee representatives that read these forums.
Sharing thoughts and open (civil) discussion can only make clubs everywhere smarter and undoubtedly wiser in their on-track management.
The swiss-cheese model can strike at any time after all..... :(
I see the this discussion as a potentially good thing. Of course the caveat is that it remains on the level ... :)
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Kevin Williams speaks about the incident...
http://www.motoonline.com.au/2015/07/23/industry-insight-mx-nationals-kevin-williams/
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Protocols not being followed?
He goes to lengths to highlight the track crew not following protocol - which also highlights there were no other secondary procedures in place to avoid such an incident. How about telling everyone (all officials) that there is about to be bikes on the circuit and getting a track clearance from everyone (via headsets) before giving the go-ahead?
For sure human error was a factor, and on more than one level, though it's a bit low to leave it looking like it was a mistake on just one level . . .
The right procedures already exist even at club days - the starter, finisher and track marshal communicate before dropping the gate on the next race.
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Bloody hell.
It's one thing to say that protocols weren't followed....(I personally thought that was blatantly obvious) but KW states he communicated with Race control to let Matt start his super poll lap. Question: Wouldn't everybody else with headsets have heard the command?
Then he mentions something about the water truck guy not being happy with the start straight and asking the bobcat operator to give it a quick once over....WTF, the bobcat was parked on the track at the base of the finish line jump (which is where timing for laps is done because super poll is a hot lap) so surely he's not trying to suggest that a local club member doesn't know where the start straight is.
If anyone has seen the video of the crash, you can see at least 3 people near the bobcat. No one apart from officials and photographers is allowed on the in field of the track. Did they not hear the command from KW to start Matt for super poll? Even without headsets they would of heard the announcement over the track side loud speakers. I did, and I was further away from the speakers than they were.
Point is, I didn't see a red flag raised anywhere. Nor did I see any official attempt to run to the top of the jump to try and stop Matt.
I hope that WorkSafe Victoria, MV, MA and any other investigating party apart from WEM appeal for impartial witnesses to come forward to give some more insight into an incident that could of taken more than one life. Maybe I'm the only person on this forum who saw the whole debacle on this forum, but there were plenty of others at the canteen alone who saw it all unfold.
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The Bobcat wasn't doing any work at the time Geoff. It was sitting idle. As a matter of fact, for whatever reason the bobcat was called onto the track for had not even began....It just sat idle at the base of the jump.
In the seconds before impact the video shows the bobcat lowering its bucket and then reversing toward centre of track.
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Communication errors are probably impossible to eliminate compleatly. Sure procedures will be put in place to stop a similar crash in the future, but humans will find a way to make a different error.
You can't do anything COMPLEATLY safely.
One of the sad things to me is: everyone involved was trying to make the day of MX racing successful and safe. (Removing he wheel ruts...for eg)
We all hope Matt recovers fast and compleatly, and that lessons are learned.
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KW's account seems plausible. Particularly the bit where he says Moss had only entered the track seconds before the crash - there wasn't half a lap for Moss to be flagged down, or the bobcat to be moved.
I'm certainly not a member of the Kevin Williams fan club, but nothing he's said there is obviously bullsh.
Assuming he has told the story straight, I'd predict that the blame will be (rightly) shared between the bobcat operator, the water truck driver and Williams. The two volunteers deviated from protocol, and WEM didn't have adequate protocols in place, so all of them contributed to the crash.
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KW's account seems plausible. Particularly the bit where he says Moss had only entered the track seconds before the crash - there wasn't half a lap for Moss to be flagged down, or the bobcat to be moved.
I'm certainly not a member of the Kevin Williams fan club, but nothing he's said there is obviously bullsh.
Assuming he has told the story straight, I'd predict that the blame will be (rightly) shared between the bobcat operator, the water truck driver and Williams. The two volunteers deviated from protocol, and WEM didn't have adequate protocols in place, so all of them contributed to the crash.
Firstly Nathan, Matt started the hot lap before the rhythm section that leads to the finish line jump. That would be a good 70-80 meters. There was ample time to stop him before he got to the jump....
Secondly, KW stated that the water truck driver directed the bobcat operator to the START STRAIGHT as the truck left some wheel marks there. That implies that the bobcat operator didn't know where the start straight is and chose to go to the bottom of the finish line jump instead.
If the bobcat had been moved when the announcement was made over the loud speakers that the super poll was about to begin, there would of been a good 15 seconds to get Matt stopped and/or the bobcat moved.
I was there. I know what I heard. I know what I witnessed.
Even at a club day meeting the next race start doesn't happen until the track is clear. This is usually indicated by the finish line flaggie holding up a green flag to the start line person letting them know the track is good to go.
And the WEM lot all had you beaut communication devices!
Protocols my arse!