OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Iain Cameron on August 03, 2014, 03:32:13 pm
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I have been talking to another member about this topic so here goes .
These thoughts are for discussion only Im not wanting to shake up the hornets nest just asking .
1 Why do we have so many age classes .
2 Would all in as far as 125,250, open. Could this be a answer to the lowering of time , money needed be a answer .
Ok before you all scream bastard my Daughter\Son races in under 30 , think if he\she is good enough they will win the class in the main event anyway . My thoughts on age races is for us older buggers that rode these bikes when they were new . What really do a under 30 or u40 have in common with these bikes .
Already I have heard talk of why bother going to the Nats its a kids race (why don't they ride moderns , why take our trophies and on and on ) . As a older fart ok younger fart (Super Senior ) I can see how some will think . I know myself when a younger rider flys past me and I wonder why ive stopped why bother but we need to go forward and include younger riders but not at the exclusion of older riders
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When I was racing the vintage, there was only 30 to 39 class, over 40 to 49 class and over 50`s class. thats all you need. I would delete the 30 to 39 class all powers. and replace it with an
over 60`s class. and then leave it alone.
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Dave there is under 30's , 30 to 39 , 40 to 49 , 50 to 59 , etc
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NO
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NO
Come on Rookie no what .
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Keep the age races and delete the capacity age races.
Why offer them,when they never get more than ten.
More unnecessary cost.
cheers A
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NO
Come on Rookie no what .
Some simple questions require just the simplest of answers, this is one of them ;)
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VMX247--No more than 10??
2012 Classic Nationals 250cc 40-49 16 riders, 2013 250cc 40-49 12 riders
50-59 28 riders 50-59 18 riders
60+ 13 riders 60+ 16 riders
263+ 40-49 19 riders 263+ 40-49 10 riders
50-59 16 riders 50-59 13 riders
60+ 19 riders 60+ 15 riders
Note, this year after Canberra withdrew there were only 7 weeks
from agreeing to take it on to gate drop, very little time
for promotion etc.
Sorry to introduce facts into the discussion
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If there are time/programme restraints, you could consider running 40-49, 50-59, 60 plus, all-in (ie, regardless of capacity). That way, the rider could enter the bike he felt was most suitable for the circuit/conditions and get stuck in. If there is plenty of time and the programme can run freely, leave it alone, and run it as it has been satisfactorily run.
But historic roadracing is now choking with too many eras/capacities, and struggling to cater for all their classes at nationals level. As a result, any crash or breakdown at their nationals compromises an already-tight schedule, and races are shortened or dropped, that's no good.
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In the two years exampled we had no trouble getting through in two days. What we do though in any given capacity is run a couple of age groups concurrently (depending on numbers) but pointed separately.
We have also used staggered starts with great success.
On the "General Discussion" section I've listed some stats which illustrate how popular the age/capacity races are.
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Good call, Col. As always, your contributions are based on knowledge, logic and fact. No wonder you're only on here every now and again... ;D
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VMX247--No more than 10??
pm sent Col.
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Thanks gents this is what I was after rather than the fights that are the norm on here . Just another thought Is it time for a Masters type MX event as well instead of age classes at the Nats . A separate Masters Nats .
Iain
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Personal belief is basically along the lines of Ian, Because the words National championship is used. It gets to serious for a sport based on an era, an historic era at that and there are no young hot shots riding regularly at classic clubs, or not enough for it to be taken seriously. We take our sport seriously, for the age we are. maybe a Master Championship is the way to go, with each championship being based on age group. Too many people make too many comments about the championship, but never turn up to ride. We make the trek every year from the West, why we love the era and enjoy the chance to race with like people on the other side of the country. Win we would love to but it's not the be all, end all!!!
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I was under the impression that it was age groups all powers until the riders list come out.
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If there are time/programme restraints, you could consider running 40-49, 50-59, 60 plus, all-in (ie, regardless of capacity). That way, the rider could enter the bike he felt was most suitable for the circuit/conditions and get stuck in. If there is plenty of time and the programme can run freely, leave it alone, and run it as it has been satisfactorily run.
But historic roadracing is now choking with too many eras/capacities, and struggling to cater for all their classes at nationals level. As a result, any crash or breakdown at their nationals compromises an already-tight schedule, and races are shortened or dropped, that's no good.
Did you know that there is a limit on number of riders at each start and that I am told is 17, so if this is true, then your grouping idea is thrown out the window.
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Ian, that's close to what we have now if run by GCRs. My guess is the current event may die out if the say 40 plus yo riders migrated to a Masters event. Also it's hard now to fit everything into the calender.
Tossa I agree with your sentiments
Dave, who told you 17, the tooth fairy? Most tracks have 40 gates, and even our local private property track has 30 gates.
35, The GCRs call for age/capacity classes, and the Sup Regs I entered under show that arrangement.
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Col the sup regs I entered from only reads
Pre 1975 Age Group Racing
If you look at the sup regs now its highlighted yellow [ which Im guessing has been edited] with the addition of 125,250 etc
Thats why my impression was as stated, this means more rides for me so good value for money
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Yep it's all good, looking forward to it. Only 4,000 km. Yes I know WA is slightly more but the Nullabour is a pussy cat now.
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Dave where did you get 17 only . Col I am not trying to sink the Nats that would be the last thing on my mind , Just asking how other older riders think. As to me the pre 78 era is where I come from. DT1's and ON any Sunday is where Im stuck in time . Evo and newer just don't rock my boat . The idea of racing with like minded friends is for me the fun of it . Tossa put it in better words than me . With no prize money or sponsorship dollars its a love that we share of old bikes .
Iain
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Iain at the viper meeting at Barrabool, by the track organizers on the day, I was taking about a classic thumper national to be run at Barrabool before it closes down. They said it would be great, but the new ruling is that they only can have 17 riders max on the grid at one time. I am not sure if this ruling only to barrabool, or to other events
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Yes Ian we are on the same page, it's just that I think we have that now since the "split"
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I personally would much rather see the Classic and post classic championships be run as age group specific, there is too large a variety of ages to make it a straight shoot out. We come from all ages to enjoy classic and post classic bikes for a straight shoot out. make the championship in line with the people who ride it each season, not the riders brought in just for the championship
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VMX247--No more than 10??
2012 Classic Nationals 250cc 40-49 16 riders, 2013 250cc 40-49 12 riders
50-59 28 riders 50-59 18 riders
60+ 13 riders 60+ 16 riders
263+ 40-49 19 riders 263+ 40-49 10 riders
50-59 16 riders 50-59 13 riders
60+ 19 riders 60+ 15 riders
Sorry to introduce facts into the discussion
Just my opinion but talking about more relevant actual facts - by just using the normal age classes (not splitting into the 18 variations proposed) you will not only get fuller fields but actually allow spectators to actually see multiple Australian title races not just a trailing of multi gate confusing support ride events, and get this fact ...guess what you WILL STILL deliver 6 Australian title classes, which after all is said and done from the above facts list is all that was achieved... ( yet with 150 entrants ? ).
What did all the people who drove there from across Australia do when they had no title class to race in ?, just go out for a fun day ride ? why should they have to, they should have every right to compete for a Aussie title after all that's the point right of the host club being awarded it.
Manipulating grids with bits an bobs of age entries with the remaining 10 classes (obviously using above facts as min numbers where not attained) those other poor buggers that travelled ended up literally in a club day ride. ( non title class) and had to pay for the privilege.
Going by the above stats you would have been better to use the normal All power version of rating age groups and where over subscribed you could have then used the variation options to split or upgrade non title ages ie <30 -49 together to create titles or use the capacity option wiser to just split the over subscribed combinations that end up 40+ plus gates. At the end of the Day surely we would be more interested in pursuing all the options to deliver bonifide title offerings based on the actual entry list, not a static sliding hope of fixed references.
Limiting ourselves to capacity age variation discussions will certainly create a downward trend in the sport, as can be seen in your age bracket creep reference, it has reached terminal velocity over the years. Sooner or later you will just have a 60 plus title if you don't create solid fields now and build activity and credibility.
It will become not financially viable for a club to Pay all the expenses to host an Aussie title, permits, medical and so on.. yet be unable to sell sponsors and rider and spectators the fullest of Aussie title class options.
You can't expect to offer *27 variations of Aussie title classes and expect the wider motorsport community to not question the value we place on the Aussie medallion. IT'S not a peewee cup for crusty old people, there are other events like bonanza, CD and the like in each state to cater for joy rides.... I think we need to seriously think about how we as riders, clubs and promoters ensure we do everything we cant to create value for each title, create every opportunity for every rider and deliver for every sponsor and person standing on the fence.
seriously Next time I enter a championship event if its not structured and delivers an Aussie title class ill be asking for a discount....
this is just IMHO
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Keep the age races and delete the capacity age races.
Why offer them,when they never get more than ten.
More unnecessary cost.
cheers A
You are correct Ally. Fact is of the 16 class variations offered recently, only 6 where able to reach the prescribed 10 min numbers to be run as a Aussie title class, which ironically is exactly the same as the standard age based non capacity option but yet every one entered by that program design actually gets to ride off for a bonifide aussie title. This world is full over topsie turvy over thinking....
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Dave,
I think you will find it was a noise restriction condition that was applied for that meeting at Barrabool.
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Kerry please read the first post this is not a slight on the Nats . I was just asking if we needed all the age classes . The post was for discussion not a change in the regs or a go at MA . I for once wanted a discussion on here without hot heads screaming at each other . If the sport dies out as the older guys leave \ die off \get sick of the back bitting . So be it , to be truthful Ive never seen what younger riders see in old bikes that were built before most of them were even able to walk .
Iain
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Kerry please read the first post this is not a slight on the Nats . I was just asking if we needed all the age classes . The post was for discussion not a change in the regs or a go at MA . I for once wanted a discussion on here without hot heads screaming at each other . If the sport dies out as the older guys leave \ die off \get sick of the back bitting . So be it , to be truthful Ive never seen what younger riders see in old bikes that were built before most of them were even able to walk .
Iain
I am with you Iain, The younger generation are not interested in the bikes we rode back in the 60`s, &70`s, when I was young I wasn`t interested in my fathers belt drive Lewis, Rudge Multis`
and My brothers Triumph 650 scrambler. I wanted modern at the time.
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Kerry please read the first post this is not a slight on the Nats . I was just asking if we needed all the age classes . The post was for discussion not a change in the regs or a go at MA . I for once wanted a discussion on here without hot heads screaming at each other . If the sport dies out as the older guys leave \ die off \get sick of the back bitting . So be it , to be truthful Ive never seen what younger riders see in old bikes that were built before most of them were even able to walk .
Iain
I am with you Iain, The younger generation are not interested in the bikes we rode back in the 60`s, &70`s, when I was young I wasn`t interested in my fathers belt drive Lewis, Rudge Multis`
and My brothers Triumph 650 scrambler. I wanted modern at the time.
agree
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Kerry please read the first post this is not a slight on the Nats . I was just asking if we needed all the age classes . The post was for discussion not a change in the regs or a go at MA . I for once wanted a discussion on here without hot heads screaming at each other . If the sport dies out as the older guys leave \ die off \get sick of the back bitting . So be it , to be truthful Ive never seen what younger riders see in old bikes that were built before most of them were even able to walk .
Iain
I am with you Iain, The younger generation are not interested in the bikes we rode back in the 60`s, &70`s, when I was young I wasn`t interested in my fathers belt drive Lewis, Rudge Multis`
and My brothers Triumph 650 scrambler. I wanted modern at the time.
agree
Yes that may be true re wanted modern, but lets assume all you or your parents could afford when you were young was a then 25-20 plus yo bike,?? Then that would be what you grew up on!!! Also, some just think they "look" cool....
Cheers,
Kim
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Kim, I take your point but a 30 year old now riding a 25 year old bike that's 1989 model so that makes it irrelevant for pre 78 even . Look honestly at the prices of second hand bikes and tell me that a pre 75 vmx bike is cheaper than a 10 year old modern bike . As for the bikes we started with mine was a absolute shitter and I could not wait to save enough to get myself a competitive bike a at the time Modern bike . Just out of curiosity Kim how old are you ( sorry quest key is US) and what bike did you first race . Mine was a Scrambler horse (Honda 50cc copy ) It made me find so many lawns to mow to raise enough money as a 14 y\o to buy a proper bike don't laugh a 74 dt125 that was then stripped for mx . Iain
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Do we need all the age groups? Probably not, but if any are going to be combined it has the be the younger ages but is it fair to compare a 29 year old to a 39 year old.
I turned 60 this year and I know I am not competitive even against a 50 year old or 55.
Leave it the way it is just lower the number to constitute a class why are sidecars and women's class 6 to constitute a class and I think the Aust Classic DT Champs has 6 to constitute a class for Pre 60 and 65.
Also the number of starters for a race is dictated by the number of start gates and track width. 1 to 30 gates the track minimum of six metres wide over 30 to 40 gates minimum of 7 metres wide. This is the MA Track Standard for Motocross tracks, there isn't a separate standard for Classic MX Tracks.
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Iain, I guess we all have a different story as to why we ride or like different bikes eg I ride 74 Hondas 125 and 250 of which I was only 3 when they hit the showroom floor. I was never involved in motocross until my first meeting which was the Nationals at Coffs Harbour in my mid 30's on the said bikes. Ive never road modern motocross and have no interest to.
With the interest in Hondas and older things is how my interest in classic motocross come about, so what Im trying to say is that younger people can have an interest in bikes that they had no association with in the day.
If its all about riding with people your own age then bike capacity seems a bit of a trophy grab, the fast riders will win on any capacity bike. So if rider numbers aren't there to support age and capacity classes, then age all powers seem a logical choice to me.
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may be if we just keep the age classes simple, for the over 50`s or over 60`s only, nothing under that.
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But the numbers ARE there in the older age groups. In the last two Nats the three older age groups ( in each separate capacity),often outnumbered sidecar's,Pre78 125, Pre70 250. Do we drop those classes as unworthy of a championship status?
Example 2013 there were more Superseniors than all 16-39 and 30-39 combined. Superseniors equalled the all-ages Pre70 class
50-59 250 outnumbered Pre75 4Stroke, Pre60, Pre65 250 & 263+, Pre70,250, Pre78 125,
60+ were only a couple behind the above and 40-49 not far behind either.
2012 there were 28 riders in the 250 50-59 age race, and 16 in 263+
there were 19 " 263+ 60+ "
" " 19 " " 40-49 "
By the anti age/ capacity advocates logic re "worthiness" of championship status in those catagories, and cost, we should be culling out classes which have say less than age/capacity entries.
I don't think so
As has been suggested in several previous posts perhaps dropping age racing for sub 40 is a logical approach. the young guys can shine in the open classes and if they stay supporting vintage racing will graduate into the age racing.
I am often told by dads and older sponsors "Harold races Vintage because he just loves riding the old bikes". I'm sure this is true in some instances, but how many slow young riders do you see entered because they just "love riding old bikes"
We like seeing hot riders young or old trotting their stuff, but the strenghth is in the continued participation of older riders.
The young guns will get older and slower so they can then join in the age racing.
Settle Ted, you know where I'm coming from.
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The solution is simple. Three age groups with Super Senior run as an Unlimited race separate.
16 to 49 (entries to constitute a Championship class 10)
50 to 59 (entries to constitute a Championship class 10) this is usually the larger group
60 and over (entries to constitute a Championship class 6)
For Motocross run each capacity as two race groups
16 to 49
and 50 and over, like is was at Toowoomba
Most Championship meeting Promoters will have sponsorship to cover each age group.
Run the class even if the entries aren't there. The numbers will grow if they are run. Any hint that a class won't be run does result in riders not entering because "the class will be dropped". I know it sound stupid but that is exactly what happens.
Be positive any negativity means riders don't enter.
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Kev, I totally agree with your last paragraph. We proved that in 2012 when we guaranteed Pre60 a start. After some years of no Pre 60 class we had enough to qualify as a championship, and the class increasd 50% in 2012. I see Pt Augusta has a championsip level for Pre60. Three guys in our club built/bought bikes as a result.Run it and they will come.
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Kev, I totally agree with your last paragraph. We proved that in 2012 when we guaranteed Pre60 a start. After some years of no Pre 60 class we had enough to qualify as a championship, and the class increasd 50% in 2012. I see Pt Augusta has a championsip level for Pre60. Three guys in our club built/bought bikes as a result.Run it and they will come.
Right on Col!
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Kev, I can see the average 48yo being thrilled to being lumped in with the teenagers. The 40-49 should not be cannon fodder so the kids can get a medal. If the young riders can win a medal in Open class it would have some meaning
Why, when (using 2012 again) there were 12 riders in 40-49 125cc ( 3 under 30, 3 in 30-39)
" " " " 16 " " 250 cc (2 under 30, 6 "
" " " " 19 " " 263+ (0 under 30, 3 " )
I know statistics are boring, but do tell the story.
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Maybe the solution is
16-39 age race is all powers
40-49 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
50-59 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
60-69 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
70yo+ race is all powers
This would offer everyone equal number of races. If it was worded that way in the MOMS it would make it easier for promoting clubs to schedule and entrants to know exactly what was what.
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Maybe the solution is
16-39 age race is all powers
40-49 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
50-59 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
60-69 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
70yo+ race is all powers
This would offer everyone equal number of races. If it was worded that way in the MOMS it would make it easier for promoting clubs to schedule and entrants to know exactly what was what.
Bonza idea.with a rise to 45 age cut off.
This may need ajusting after a few years.
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An interesting fact. The sup-regs for the Aust Classic DT Champs have the age groups clearly stated as capacities classes. They also state the minimum entry number to constitute a class for Pre 60 and Pre 65 is 6 riders. Interesting!!!!!
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Maybe the solution is
16-39 age race is all powers
40-49 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
50-59 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
60-69 age races have seperate 125, 250 & >263
70yo+ race is all powers
This would offer everyone equal number of races. If it was worded that way in the MOMS it would make it easier for promoting clubs to schedule and entrants to know exactly what was what.
Would this be ok to the over 70+ crowd or are they missing out on three rides .
but we are getting there .
35Elsinore I take you point .
Iain
Bonza idea.with a rise to 45 age cut off.
This may need ajusting after a few years.
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Kev, 6 riders min in Pre60 and Pre65 for championship statis has been in for a few years. Nothing new there.
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Why now go to 60-69, when 60+ works fine. 60-69 was put in MOMs a few years ago as a typo then corrected the following year.
16-39, a 23 year gap?
How about this scenario. All ages are eligible for an all in say Pre75 250cc championship and may the best rider win. Trophies and MA medal 1st, 2nd and third. Probably won by a young rider but that's ok as he's beaten everyone that lined up.
Age brackets 16-29,30-39,40-49, 50-59, and 60+ in a separate set of races giving all a second race opportunity.
We have a 40 gate grid, and a busy programn so need to combine some classes. Also give the spectators better value.
So lets combine 16-29, 30-39, and 40-49 on the track but pointed separately
Some may not have the numbers to make the championship requirement, but it seems to be agreed that anything less than 10 makes it a valueless medal.
Example; 2 16-29, 6 30-39, 16 40-49, a field of 24 riders
16-29, winner gets a trophy (not his fault only one other showed up) ) No medals, but they will have medalled in the
30-39 1st and 2nd get trophies (they have beaten 4 others) ) Open if good enough to beat the oldies.
40-49 !st, 2nd and 3rd trophies plus MA medals. After all they have beaten a good number of their peers and met the criterior per GCRs.
Good fields, looks good for the spectators, gets through the programn, and anyone good enough to beat their peers (or older) gets suitably rewarded.
Hang on, this sounds familiar.
O course--it's straight out of the last couple of programns
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:) that's why we look to you for advice Col . ;D