OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: bigk on January 05, 2012, 12:19:28 pm
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Seeing that Ross has taken his bat & ball & gone home just when the coversation was getting constructive, lets have another go. Anyone with some constructive idea's on how to improve the VIPER series & bring it back to the days when 120 riders was normal, post them here, send me a PM or email [email protected] and I will compile them and get them to the relevant people. I have already voiced what I think are the main issues, but to take a different approach here's a few more ways to help IMO, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and we all agree the cat needs skinning. On a different note, I believe VIPER is running without a president at the moment, can anyone confirm this? If so, I think it's a mistake as every ship needs a captain. A president/go to person is vital if things are to improve. Now some ideas:
Flaggies: Given that the clubs don't/won't/can't supply flaggies, maybe the VIPER members should have a roster where 6-10 members forfeit riding for a particular meeting and do flag duty. Volunteers first, but rostered if not enough. Those members in turn will be awarded full points for their respective classes for the meetings they flag. Would this be an option?
Points: You only have to have a break down or big crash and you're out of the points, so to keep everyone in the hunt and allow for a disaster day, everyone's worst meeting points should be dropped and not scored, ie: if there's 6 rounds, only your best 5 results are scored. I'm sure there are people who stay away if they can't make up any lost points.
Rider support: It is imperitive to have the riders informed and kept abreast of things, a regular newsletter & contact is a must IMO. The data base must be extensive, a letter to both current & old members would be a good beginning.
So there's a start, discussion open. Keep it clean & relevant, let's move forward and make for a great new season. Any assistance will be much appreciated, "many hands make short work".
K
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Well done k..........for the short term at least,the race format has to change somewhat(not completely) to more suit what riders we already have... .IMO ross had some good ideas on this.
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Every idea should be analysed and discussed on it's merits and probability of solving a problem. The main problem I see with combining classes and I agree there's nothing better than full grids, is that it doesn't encourage riders to bring multiple bikes if the classes are combined. Certainly not canning the idea, but we want to encourage more riders & more bikes to come along first. The question to be asked is if you have 3 bikes, how do we get you to bring them all along to a meeting? Keep the ideas coming.
K
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Good point with the multiple bike thing,however if the combining of classes can be achieved in a well thought out manner,maybe by by asking members what bikes/classes they are likely to ride next year, then there is no reason why an improvement on the existing format cannot be had.....as i said maybe short term fix only till the numbers return........
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Yep, a letter/email or whatever to all current & previous members needs to happen NOW, but who is going to do it? The VIPER meetings haven't run to time constraints of late and have always finished relatively early, so the program is not over loaded in that respect. Get a president & executive committee set now, make a plan & make it happen. I know it sounds easy if you say it quick, but that's the first step IMO. Come on all interested, post your thoughts & comments, info is knowledge, knowledge is power.
K
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Who has the list of members?
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I think some combining of classes may be good but maybe by capacity and not era.For argument sake people who have a pre85 bike probably have it cause thats the era that appeals to them. I maybe wrong but I would think they are likely to maybe build another pre85 bike of different capacity to gain an extra ride rather than a bike from an era that doesnt appeal to them. If all pre85 are combined it becomes a waste of time. Maybe evo 125, pre85 125 and throw in pre90 125 into the one mix with separate points . May encourage a few pre90 125's cause not many 125 guys enjoy getting there face filled in by a 500 out of the gate. All hypothetical of course
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I think some combining of classes may be good but maybe by capacity and not era.For argument sake people who have a pre85 bike probably have it cause thats the era that appeals to them. I maybe wrong but I would think they are likely to maybe build another pre85 bike of different capacity to gain an extra ride rather than a bike from an era that doesnt appeal to them. If all pre85 are combined it becomes a waste of time. Maybe evo 125, pre85 125 and throw in pre90 125 into the one mix with separate points . May encourage a few pre90 125's cause not many 125 guys enjoy getting there face filled in by a 500 out of the gate. All hypothetical of course.
spot on geoff
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Quality newsletter like Scooter news takes a lot of effort to produce with thanks to Jo & Steve.
Produce newsletter with coming event promotion, revelant information, pictures, map to tracks, series points, entry form, link to OZVMX Viper site, etc, would help tremendously.
Some people cannot operate a computer so send newsletter by mail were requested.
Riders are out there, start promoting series put an add in Just bikes, herald sun all free, can only help.
Encourage people to bring two bikes to meetings as current race program caters for all, combine classes next year if required but for 2012 just try and build a bigger data base of riders.
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In a perfect world we would have capacity classes for all era's, BUT we have to have the rider numbers to accomodate it first. Unfortunately until the rider numbers increase, some will have to be all powers classes. Pre '78 & Evo are my era and I'm only a tad interested in pre'85. Pre'90 is modern racing in my eyes. However I realise we are all different and need to cater for everyone, or most at least. How do do it is the question. Someone will be a little disappointed at best, but it's how to maximise the fun, minimise the pain and find a happy middle road? VIPER originally stood for pre '80 (now EVO) and pre' 85, so in sticking with that they should be the premier classes with pre'78 & pre'90 as the support classes. Nothing is set in stone though. The first thing we all should do is change our attitudes to "glass half full" rather than "glass half empty". Talk it up, get excited, get motivated. No matter how much I hate stutters, doubles & rythm sections, it sure beats gardening. Having said that I still believe track design at some clubs is a big issue and needs to be addressed. Can we hear from some of the VIPER organising people please?
K
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Frank..in a perfect world increasing the rider numbers is ideal.but its just not going to happen quickly,no matter how hard you try, in the meantime something has to be done now to increase the numbers in each race, (3 or 4 riders in a class does not make a race )..combining classes seems the only way to fix it for this seasons racing.
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Produce newsletter with coming event promotion, revelant information, pictures, map to tracks, series points, entry form, link to OZVMX Viper site, etc, would help tremendously.
Some people cannot operate a computer so send newsletter by mail were requested.
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Viper did run a newsletter in the earlier days. It had points tallies,entry forms, directions to the meet, general guff and for sales etc. Not a flash production, just photocopied pages stapled, labeled and posted. The membership fee incorporated the cost of the mail out. The advent of the website may have made it redundant but its nice to get hardcopy in the mail. Not everyone gets online and the immediacy of mail can act to catalyse action.
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(Question) in the last 4 years ,how many new riders have started raceing with viper
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(Question) in the last 4 years ,how many new riders have started raceing with viper
Paul, I would say enough to keep the series moving forward.
2011 series riders dropped off for whatever reason.
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POM i hear you this season needs to be good, I just think some advertising and possibly contact people that used to ride can increase numbers.
I like attend meetings with two bikes as being vintage bikes they do go wrong, combining classes could mean back to back races for some and were not getting any younger or fitter.
Forgot to mention flaggies in previous post, problem needs to be adressed for 2012 series.
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I just had an idea concerning the flaggies emailed to me, it goes something like this:
Run the race program in quarters (like football) and era's, lets say pre'78 & evo, then pre'85 & pre '90.
1st quater the pre'85/pre'90 riders flag for the pre'78/evo, then vice versa, then do it all again. Sounds fair and could work, needs to be looked at. There are heaps of idea's and observations from this person (a VIPER rider) and it's good input. Don't be shy, keep the ideas coming.
K
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Some good idea's there, I agree with combining classes by engine size (eg: Pre 78 125, Evo 125 & Pre 90 125).
I've been drawing up some idea's for a Vet's Championship, in that I was thinking that 'over 30' and 'over 40' could have all their races in the morning or Saturday and 'over 50' and 'over 60' could have all their races in the arvo or on Sunday, the day or half-day that you're not racing you are working as an official; whether it's flag-marshal, start-gate, commentator or scruntineer.
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what about prize money instead of trophys ;)
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I am also the President of Mitchell Recreation Motorcycle Club (the old Broadford Motorcycle Club), I send out an email to all financial & unfinacial members each week, apart from keep current members being updated with relevent stuff, it also keeps the old members interested and will hopefully bring them back.
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K what happens if you ride in evo and pre85
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Mandate timing & lap scoring transponders
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K what happens if you ride in evo and pre85
Maybe they could score points in both classes?..... makes sense.
You got any idea's on how classes can be combined without anyone missing out on a ride?
Personally I think "ten starters in the class or no-go", if you only have five 'Pre 75's' then they will have to run with 'Pre 85' or Evo.
This is a big problem in Victorian roadracing at the moment; giving a trophy for winning the BEARS (British, European & American) class when only one bike shows.
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I just had an idea concerning the flaggies emailed to me, it goes something like this:
Run the race program in quarters (like football) and era's, lets say pre'78 & evo, then pre'85 & pre '90.
1st quater the pre'85/pre'90 riders flag for the pre'78/evo, then vice versa, then do it all again. Sounds fair and could work, needs to be looked at. There are heaps of idea's and observations from this person (a VIPER rider) and it's good input. Don't be shy, keep the ideas coming.
K
I think i have been misunderstood.What happens if you ride evo and pre85?
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You got any idea's on how classes can be combined without anyone missing out on a ride?
Not possible when you have a legacy group of riders. The most important thing to be aware of is that you do it for the majority of the riding group, not the minority, which has been the case in recent years.
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Viper members in 2010 103 2011 78 according to the member data base
I tryed to do a newsletter and emailed it out but in the end with all other things just didnt have the time.
I agree a newsletter is a great idea but you need a dedicated person to produce it and we just didnt have the manpower.
Andy
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Seeing that Ross has taken his bat & ball & gone home just when the coversation was getting constructive, lets have another go. Anyone with some constructive idea's on how to improve the VIPER series & bring it back to the days when 120 riders was normal, post them here, send me a PM or email [email protected] and I will compile them and get them to the relevant people. I have already voiced what I think are the main issues, but to take a different approach here's a few more ways to help IMO, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and we all agree the cat needs skinning. On a different note, I believe VIPER is running without a president at the moment, can anyone confirm this? If so, I think it's a mistake as every ship needs a captain. A president/go to person is vital if things are to improve. Now some ideas:
K
Good job Mick. One question .Who are the relevant people? and another one :- what are they planning and are they aware and involved in this discussion?
I would be happy if you were the president but I understand if you declined. Great that you have reopened the lines of communication.
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Please be advised that Bear has made a decision and officially retires from racing VMX. My body no longer permits me to race. After 17 years of viper/vmx, I now have to say enough is enough. Furthermore, my work commitments to running the number 1 suzuki dealership in Victoria has taken all my energy. Tina & I formally resign from the Viper Committee (that only barely exists as of now). As of tonight, due to heavy work commitments on both our behalfs we no longer have the time to spend organising our work with Viper. It is evident from all of the feedback and opinions that the task to overhaul Viper is extensive and will require some time and dedication to ensure its future existence. It's time that someone else takes over the running of Viper, ie admin, race numbers, organising of tracks, trophies etc etc. A big thanks to all that have helped us in the past especially Dawn & Ken for their input. It is with great sadness that I have had to make this decision. I will have a ride at the HBBB and possibly do the social side of things (non competitive). This is Bear, over and out.
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GDR: I don't know at this stage, it's just one idea put forward, the best idea for the majority should be adopted.
Brent: I only really know of one or two "relevant" people and as of this moment, none has had an input. I'm getting some direct emails with some really good ideas, but until a formal comittee is formed, it's probably all for nothing. Who to pass them on to is a very good question. A comittee needs to be formed starting with a president to steer the ship and tasks allocated to spread the load, rather than overloading a few people with everything. VIPER is a register I believe rather than a club, is this correct? I know how clubs run and been involved in many, do registers run differently? It needs to happen now or it will soon be too late. Can someone from the current VIPER organisation please respond and have some input. Tell us how we can be involved and help. I'll be off the air a bit for the next few days, but will check in when I can.
Cheers,
K
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I was going to be on the committee for next year but after FDR's outstanding comment that I shouldn't, well then I wont.
I'm off to do moderns this year where you don't get a medal for coming last (and they don't spend all their time moaning about the tracks)
I'll give you my trophies k seeing as how he wants 'em so much.......
Fu@king tossers
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After many years of being involved with Viper of which we have had some wonderful times with some great people, but the time has come to let the people with the new ideas take over.
Thanks for the memories.
Ken & Dawn Baker
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I don't want your trophies Ross, and if all it takes for you to crack it is a bit of difference of opinion, then maybe FDR is right. Calling interested people f*&king tossers because they have differing ideas is childish & ridiculous. No-one on here "gave it to you in the neck", some just offered different ideas to yours. Aggro has no place in this discussion and you're the only one guilty of it so far. From what Gazza posted it's probably all over anyway which would be a shame. If indeed VIPER moves forward, we'd love to see good Ross there, the guy I know face to face. Bad Ross, the guy on the end of the keyboard can stay home.
K
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Why is everyone jumping ship? No-one has been criticised for their effort, it' just time for a re-hash to bring the riders back. The ideas have been good, the questions fair & relevant. What's the problem?
K
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From where I sit it looks to me like Mont was attacked as soon as he posted his suggestions (take another look at the thread he started). While I didnt love all of his ideas at least he was getting some discussion going. What good is chasing someone away who was keen enough to get the ball rolling?
And no, I don't know him...
Tex
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Why is everyone jumping ship? No-one has been criticised for their effort, it' just time for a re-hash to bring the riders back. The ideas have been good, the questions fair & relevant. What's the problem?
K
Bloody good question , Bear and Tina , Ken and Dawn were the only crew that I was aware of on the committee although I wasn't sure in what roll. So my question now is there a committee ?Is there anyone who is either existing on has recently nominated themselves?I was told that plenty of people had come forward , who??
Thanks to Bear,Tina ,Ken and Dawn for all the time and effort over the years.
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When Bear was asking for help for 2012, I put my hand up to take over from Andy.Mainly to do the points for the website and also to look after the trophy side of things.
That still stands for whatever happens with Viper this year! I thought it was time to try and put back into something that I get so much enjoyment out of.
Re the classes, as one of the 3 in the pre 85 125 class.I think we all had a ball and was the closest contested class.
I would rather race any day, than just go to a practice day.You still have to do the same work to your bike before or after.
If you had to combine classes then yes maybe open it up to a pre 90 125. When they first had the 125/250 class,similar thing there were only three or four, now on a good day we would have the biggest class.Most of us regulars have a few bikes for a similar age span. As was said was said before maybe a questionaire to all members,with what they would like
Pros and cons.To get new riders you need to encourage a slightly younger age group who would be riding the pre85/90.
I think it would be great if we could have a beginners class,so that all the people who are maybe thinking of having a go could try it out (yamatragic) ;). Let them go out and practice and maybe at the end of the day grid them up for a race.At least they could see what it's like to ride on a proper track!
So anyway,whichever way it goes I am more than happy to help out however I can.
Jason Ladson.
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Have been a Viper member for 1 enjoyable year, the only time I cringed was at a rider's briefing when one fellow kept baggin' the host club about their track, was factually correct but really rude (in hindsight I smile about it), overall it was enjoyable and really well organised, so it's sad to see some good and helpfull people saying that maybe they have had enough.
This and the previous thread is members trying to help and improve, and just like the fella who made me cringe perhaps some things could have been put a bit differently, but that's to be expected when old heads communicate by stabbin' buttons.
Perhaps we do need a meeting, maybe not many will turn up, but for sure those who do turn up will be trying to improve things.
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Hi all
As the outgoing secretary of Viper after resigning at the presentation night after 5 years on the committee,
I thought that it was time for some new blood. But I did say that if things
turned to shit I would possibly stay on. The committee has dwindled over the past
few years to the point of two people doing most of the hands on work.
If Viper is to survive we need a proper committee to start with .
1/ President
2/Vice president
3/Secretary
4/Tresurer
5/Race coordinator. Ken and Dawn said they will take this on and have locked in 2 dates so far, dont know if they are still willing to help.
6/Newsletter
7Web page person Ross had agreed to do this but I dont know now.
8/Person to do points and trophys. Jason Ladson had agreed to take this on and still will it seems
So if your all serious about keeping Viper going send me a PM and I'll try and get a meeeting or AGM sorted
at a place central for all interested.
Come on guy lets get together in a constructive way and keep Viper going.
Andy Marshall
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Meeeting sounds good,as after the personal attack from you a carnt wait to see you face to face.
Grant Dodd snr
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Grant if you thoutht the pM I sent you was a personal attack post it up for people to see and judge for them selves.
This is the sort of shit that we dont need and as of now I am not interested at all and offically DONE.
I have all Viper bookwork so whomever takes it over can contact me for it.
Andy Marshall
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The comment “No-one has been criticised for their effort, it' just time for a re-hash to bring the riders back”
Well I think that;
“Mont I hope to hell that you have no say in Vipers future”
“the web site is a joke”
“Personally I can't see VIPER change without a serious attitude adjustment by everyone involved”
may well fall into that category.
To answer the comments;
Who are the relevant people? and another one :- what are they planning and are they aware and involved in this discussion?
(&)
I think there is a new committee this year so let’s all get behind them and help when we can.
I think that you’ll find they are the hard working and time generous people that battled through last year along some new faces that were prepared not to be a "seagull" in an attempt to hold it together for 2012.
They are also the ones that have resigned from VIPER via this thread.
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I have been asked to put this up bye another Viper member
Sum suggestions on how I thought the classes could run.
These are suggestions only.
Viper classes
Evo Pre 85 pre 90 125cc each class scored separately
Evo Pre 85 pre 90 250 cc each class scored separately
Evo Pre 85 pre 90 500 cc each class scored separately
Viper expert all powers
Viper non expert all powers
Evo 45 plus all powers
Pre85/Pre90 45 plus all powers
Juniors this is mainly for the host clubs people to have a ride
Modern same mainly for the hosts clubs people to have a ride
Pre 78 to keep? Could be included with other classes
4 strokes to be in with bike years not a separate class
These are just a thought of how it could be.
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Sounds good
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Will be there.
From where I am cannot really do any organising so I await a meeting place/time.
If I can do anything please PM me and ask, will do what I can.
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Andy, that sound good, what about including 45 years plus pre 85 allpowers? And do we need to consider a 45 + pre90 all powers,do we know how many 45+ members would have a pre90 ?
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Just added a couple of bills suggestions.
This could also leave room for a hybrid class or somthing else?
Maybe a mini bike class or 80cc pre85/pre90/evo class
Just throwing ideas about.
Andy
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To answer the comments;
Who are the relevant people? and another one :- what are they planning and are they aware and involved in this discussion?
(&)
I think there is a new committee this year so let’s all get behind them and help when we can.
I think that you’ll find they are the hard working and time generous people that battled through last year along some new faces that were prepared not to be a "seagull" in an attempt to hold it together for 2012.
They are also the ones that have resigned from VIPER via this thread.
Great observation there Bahnzy ,I noticed that too . My point was that any proposal's for change should be put forward by the committee as a whole (or perhaps a President with the committes consent) bigK understood that and answered
I only really know of one or two "relevant" people and as of this moment, none has had an input. I'm getting some direct emails with some really good ideas, but until a formal comittee is formed, it's probably all for nothing. Who to pass them on to is a very good question. A comittee needs to be formed starting with a president to steer the ship and tasks allocated to spread the load, rather than overloading a few people with everything.
Everyone knows that some people were stepping down at the seasons end and new committee members where asked for , when I offered some assistance a while back I was told that heaps of people had alreadycome forward and things were looking good.So where are these people ?So far I've heard of Ross and Jason and Ross has since packed it in. The Hackings and the Bakers have also since quit their posts which is a very disappointing way to start the season.Andy had offered to stay and help but then dropped out also, understandably.So as far as I know there is only Jason ?I thought that Steve Sweeney and Arno Franz were on but I dont know if they are continuing or in what roll.Where are the others?
In my opinion I cant see the point of banging out some format changes or other stuff if there is not a structured committee that is working on firstly venues and a calender and then any changes that might help in getting the numbers back up to where they were not to long ago.
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What the f@*k is going on here?
Not defending, or crucifying, anyone but wasn't the whole point of this discussion, and correct me if I'm wrong, to benefit our sport (Viper) not destroy it?
Seems that some have lost their way. Let's stop the attacks, especially the personal ones, stop dragging up what happened here or there, last year or beyond & just concentrate on the future. (If we have one)
I'm sure most have the sport at heart but to see such genuine good people as Ken, Dawn, Andy, Gary & (oh alright) even Nimmo, call it quits just disgusts me. Ken & Dawn should be put on pedistals and paid homage to for what they have done for our sport, closely followed by Andy & Gary. Given a chance I'm sure Nimmo would as well.
Whilst there may have not been a direct attack on these fine people they have obvisously taken offence to the context of this and previous threads. I for one would plead with them to come back on board and put aside the comments of a few misguided souls, I have often taken the barb of some, members & others and the thing that keeps me going is that I do it for the club & the sport & not the few who yank my chain.
I hope when things settle these great ambassadors for our sport will rethink & ignore the few detractors that have upset them & do it for the majority of us that appreciate emmensely what they do.
Ken, Dawn, Gary, Andy & Nimmo, please come back on board as your contribution is, by the vast majority, (No one gets a 100%) is extremely valued & will be greatly missed.
My 2 bobs
Viper666
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Now onto flag duty.
I wont comment on past threads just what has happened & maybe ideas.
I used to pay for flaggies for Viper meets & I actually raised it from the club usual of $350 to $500 to try and get groups interested.
I would be happy to do it again but I cannot get any groups to do it for that money.
We are talking of raising it to $1000 to even $2000 for modern classes.
I personally split Viper so that there is a Modern class early then not again till after lunch. This frees them up for the post practice to lunch slot. After lunch it a turkey shoot.
I hear what some say it is up to the club to supply (Yeah I know I said I wouldn't comment but this is relevant) flaggies but believe the guy that this gets left for most meetings at Monza to I cant get enough members for ANY meet let alone Viper. I wish it was so.
OK, I haven't come up with any ideas but if some one can fix this I will pay them for the solution.
There is NO easy fix to this one but we ALL need to work towards a solution & keep the bigger picture in mind.
I wont comment on costs, I wont, just to say it's not about money. Ultimately it's value for money. I for one have never complained about the cost as I choose to do it & treat Viper events as a weekend away, drinking a little bit, talking lots of bull, riding a bit & catching up with a bunch of blokes & ladies who I regard as good stock & thoroughly enjoying the whole kit & kaboodle.
Please, let's get back on track & cement a great 2012 season.
PS OK drinking a lot! You got me.
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Guys, the idea of a thread to discuss possibilities for the club is good in principle, but at this stage it's not offering up a good look. This is contravening the forum guidelines with personal attacks, off topic rants and so on. Please keep it tidy and observe the rules.
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Riders Brief.
K, I'm not sure which ones you're talking about but as someone who has done it a few times. You think everyone gets it but the times I have ASSUMED all are on board & let them go supposed season riders, who should know better, let you down with some obvious bloopers. So unfortunately sometimes you have to treat everyone as green and go through it all just so there is no mistakes.
Viper666
Wont hog again, gunna have another beer now.
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Ok it's great for everyone to have an idea of perfect classes etc, but until a comittee is formed to direct the idea's, it's all talk. No-one has answered my question as to how a register is run as against a club? If indeed the people who have resigned via this forum are serious, are there not notifications to be made to some contolling body (MA) or whoever to allow for a new comittee? I see Peter has called a meeting in a new thread, good work, but I think it should be earlier than 3-4 weeks away.
Neil: Riders Brief.
There have been a couple of real shockers and my home club was probably the worst offender and has been quoted in this thread. The flaggie issue has really urked most people and maybe the frustrations associated with this are what have set the "not so cheery" tone @ RB.
Some level heads & rationale is what's needed at this point. But humans are an emotional lot, and as we've seen form where this thread has ventured, some of those emotions are detrimental.
K
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its sad to see how this is going, i would prefer to put this to a committee but here goes,
my option with flaggies is at the start of the year you nominate a day that you can help on the entry form.
you may have to have 2 preferences to balance out the year then either drawn from a hat to get a roster drawn up.
if you can orginise some one your self on the day ,you can still race.
if the club running the day has flaggies or some one offers to help on the day you can pay $50 to that person and get to race.
the nominated riders on the day who want to pay $50 for the helper would go into a draw (you would have to bring your bike on the day )
if you get an injury during the year or bike problems and cant race ,you may be able to swap your nominated day with some one else.
your results if you get to ride on your nominated day are not counted in to the total for the year.
to help this work there could be a extra fee of say 50$ on the viper entry at the start of the year which is returned when you do your duty or can be paid to your fill in on the day.
i would be happy to be part of the committee and attempt this
thanks to all the helpers over the years and dont ever think your not appretiated and your experience is invaluable
cheers arno
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Thanks for posting that PM i sent you Ross, you have class to burn.
By the way i was on a 125 when you passed me at Yanakie, must make you proud passing me on your 250.
Viper committee please consult with the register if you want to go forward, perhaps a questionare could be sent out with committee nomination forms.
Mont why use this forum to canvas ideas, how many of the 100 odd Viper register read this forum ?
You could have sent a questionare to Viper register.
Over and out
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As I said frank, I don't get into PM blews. Just leave it mate and stop sending them please.
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Just dropped into the forum and happened upon this VIPER discussion. As an ex-VIPER rider, here's my 2c:
Firstly, these are just ideas, so point any assassination attempts elsewhere please. I'll be upfront, state my intentions and say I don't have time to get involved in running a series. It's a massive effort and one I just couldn't commit to. I'm just going to air out my ideas because I think they are reasonable and that's what a forum is for.
Guys, the problem that VIPER, VCM and any series of this ilk is that the rider base generally are towards the end of their riding 'career' (for want of a better term). Members will drop off as the last waltz with their youth fades away. It's not like the Gippsland Centres where hordes of juniors flood into the senior ranks every year and yet another division of 250Fs are added. It's the guys that drop off the end of this type of series that VIPER should be targeting. The guys in their 30s & 40s with real jobs (& maybe a couple of grommets) who want to ride again but don't want to be faced with a bunch of kids ready to fire themselves off obstacles like lemmings.
VIPER has an opportunity here. They can change it right up (and possibly risk offending a few of the long term members), take a punt on a whole new format and see where it goes. Or, they can leave it as is and see how it rolls. As the years pass, I'd like to think there would be some sort of merge with VCM for the older metal in VIPER. For example, I believe Pre 78 firmly belongs in VCM now - the tracks just destroy the older bikes with less suspension. I don't get any satisfaction out of trashing a bike that old. I absolutely love the tracks VCM puts on. They are totally appropriate and I miss riding it. The one or two derogatory comments about 'groomed paddocks' really annoyed me, as that was what MX used to be when my old man raced. Bombing down those hills into greasy off cambers at Boagys or Mirboo at full noise still requires balls.
Anyway, I digress.
The new focus? My thinking has "2 STROKE" all over it. Less Pre 80, More Pre 90, Pre 00 & maybe a Modern class. Break it into 125s and 250+. Give the old 4 Strokes a class, but they shouldn't be the focus. No modern four strokes either. Combined with a careful grading system, it could work well. Get in touch with some of the 90s top A-graders & Pros to see if they're interested. How cool would it be to see a Lee Hogan, Troy Dorron, Jye Harvey or even a stupidly fast ex-junior champ like Ben Coleman out there having a crack? These bikes were their bread & butter.
I know of two guys building up late 80s CR250s right now with the intention of competing in VIPER. These were the bikes we wanted to ride when we were kids. Now we're in our 30s, we've got the cash to build & run toys like that along with our other hobbies. As it stands, VIPER sort of caters for Pre 90, but more as an afterthought. If I had a series to run my favourite bike (a 1993 CR250) with other bikes like it and guys like me (in my mid-30s), I'd be rapt and I'd run out and get myself one of those bad boys again. Yeah, I could run it in Modern, but as I said, I don't fancy getting taken out by the Gen Z nutters.
I was watching some mid 90s motocross videos the other day. The buzzing two strokes bouncing all over the place was spectacular and I bet there would be a heap of people in Vic alone willing to race a series marketing to that appeal.
As far as all the bitching goes, well... FFS guys. There are bugger all people who are actually quick on a bike that contribute to this forum (including myself!), so starting stupid fights about crap like passing each other is pointless. Keep it on message and constructive and it'll start to get somewhere. All ideas are good, because they are just that; ideas.
Anyway, carry on....
Cheers,
Neil Ritchie
ex-VIPER #46,
2007 Pre78 Champ ;D
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I have raced viper for 3 years now, and have watched it slowly dwindle. It would be a crying shame to see it fall in a heap the way it looks like it's going to.
As one of the riders in the fabled pre85 125 class (and the slowest!) as well as the moderns I sincerely hope that people of the capacity of the Bakers and Andy, Bear etc can stay on to make it happen.. The enjoyment I get from racing my old shitbox against Jason, Alan Rihaetc is far more than the moderns even though the speeds are slower..
If I can be of assistance to anyone please let me know.. Mark.
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Firstly I have to state I am not a member of Viper, don't even live in Vic. So I'm sticking my fingers into something that has no real impact on me other than it is very saddening to see a very great VMX group such as Viper imploding so publicly. The acrimony and animosity displayed on here has been more than disturbing.
I met the Bakers , Bear and a heap of other Viper members at last year’s HBBB. All super people and love their VMX with a passion and made me feel very welcome 8). They even had me saying GROUSE by the end of the weekend ;D. Any club or register or whatever would be very lucky to have such people on the team.
All clubs or registers or whatever go through periods of prosperity and difficulty. They should be worked through internally. The meeting organised by Billet YZ on another thread is by far the best solution as it is the only way to work through the issues and resolve them as a group.
What is happening in this thread is that Viper is bleeding publically with no good coming from it :'(.
Many great sporting coaches will tell you you don't change a winning game but always change a loosing game ;)
OK that’s my 2 cents worth I’m ready to be assassinated now :P
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i think your on the money Greg.
well done to BilletYZ for organising the meeting. the intention of trying to use the forum to gain opinion is a good one but sadly it went downhill. everyone has a differing opinion on things and a consensus will never be reached that will appease all members but hopefully the issues will be sorted to please the majority. i hope to come back and get a few rides in this year as an old mate is about to give it a go after a long break (1983 retirement) and another mate is building another bike so that should fire me up again for a play.
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I problem with the hold issue is that their are to many events on each year and it needs to come back together as a one unit. ( Victorian State Vmx Championship.) IT would stop all the bickering and riders and people would start to get more interested in the whole series again.
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Montynut,
For an "Outsider" you seem to have a good grasp!
Viper666
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I problem with the hold issue is that their are to many events on each year and it needs to come back together as a one unit. ( Victorian State Vmx Championship.) IT would stop all the bickering and riders and people would start to get more interested in the whole series again.
That might be true Dave but I dont think( actually I know) that most of the riders who have dropped out of the VIPER series in the last two seasons haven't gone across to one of the other series. They have just chucked it in all up or have gone modern or vinduro.
Of course if the three series combined there would be more numbers but since they each cater for mostly different era's it would be a hard task and individual class's would still be rather small.I dont know about your series but the two class's that VCM and VIPER both run ,Evo and Pre78 , are pretty much the same riders doing both series.
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I problem with the hold issue is that their are to many events on each year and it needs to come back together as a one unit. ( Victorian State Vmx Championship.) IT would stop all the bickering and riders and people would start to get more interested in the whole series again.
According to the websites of the three (3) respective organisations noted below, they cater for specific age groups of machinery. It would be of interest to understand what year EVOLUTION was added into the race schedule for VCM?
CSC - CLASSIC SCRAMBLE CLUB
The club was formed by a number of like minded riders who saw the need for a club that simply catered for riders of classic scramble bikes namely pre 60 to pre 75 bikes.
VCM - VICTORIAN CLASSIC MOTOCROSS
With backing from Motorcycling Victoria (MV), the Victorian Classic Motocross Committee & the Victorian Classic Motocross Register (VCM) organize with clubs around Victoria to hold a round of Classic Motocross. The racing is open to bikes from Pre 1965 up to pre 1978 and including Evolution
Note: The 2011 VCM entry form has no reference to Pre65 classes, only Pre 1970 up to pre 1978 and Evolution.
VIPER – VICTORIAN PRE-85 & EVOLUTION REGISTER
VIPER is dedicated to developing and promoting a formula for EVOLUTION & Pre’85 racing. This involves setting guidelines for bike eligibility, class structures, managing points tallies, coordinating promotions for the series, etc
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VIPER – VICTORIAN PRE-85 & EVOLUTION REGISTER
VIPER is dedicated to developing and promoting a formula for EVOLUTION & Pre’85 racing. This involves setting guidelines for bike eligibility, class structures, managing points tallies, coordinating promotions for the series, etc
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How can VIPER stand for the above when they didn't have an Evo class until 97?
I not sure about the pre 85 class either.
VIPER , when I first went to a meeting ,I thought stood for Vic Pre Eighty Register.It was formed when enough people wanted to ride pre 80 and the Original pre 75 guys didnt want them.No one had ever even heard of Evo class in the beginning .The idea for Evo came later from the US.
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I problem with the hold issue is that their are to many events on each year and it needs to come back together as a one unit. ( Victorian State Vmx Championship.) IT would stop all the bickering and riders and people would start to get more interested in the whole series again.
According to the websites of the three (3) respective organisations noted below, they cater for specific age groups of machinery. It would be of interest to understand what year EVOLUTION was added into the race schedule for VCM?
Not long after they changed from the "new era" class to pre 78 , 2008 I think.
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VIPER – VICTORIAN PRE-85 & EVOLUTION REGISTER
VIPER is dedicated to developing and promoting a formula for EVOLUTION & Pre’85 racing. This involves setting guidelines for bike eligibility, class structures, managing points tallies, coordinating promotions for the series, etc
1. How can VIPER stand for the above when they didn't have an Evo class until 97?
2. The idea for Evo came later from the US.
The shift in VIPER nomenclature from;
Victorian Pre-80 Evolution Register
(to)
Victorian Pre-85 Evolution Register
came about when MA adopted the Evolution & Pre85 regulations into the GCR’s
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Yep, VIPER was Pre-80 originally and EVO kinda grew in as classes moved on. Can't see any drama including Pre-85.
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Yep, VIPER was Pre-80 originally and EVO kinda grew in as classes moved on. Can't see any drama including Pre-85.
Yep KC , I didn't realized that the " nomenclature" had officailly changed ,I wonder when it changed from pre 80 to pre 80 and Evo.Seems that since Viper officially embraced the GCR's in 2008 then it should have been then although VIPER itself had Evo and pre 85 long before then and before the GCR's,as it now has pre 90 but the GCR's dont. No drama but its significant how VIPER is changing.Especially with recent calls to add even more modern class's and perhaps ditch pre 78.
Over to you "thread killer "
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The thing to remember was that VIPER was a break away group formed to accommodate a new, younger group of riders that wanted something more than what was on offer at the time, i.e. the Pre60 to Pre 78 classes and weren't interested in racing modern bikes. What was formed was the Victorian Pre80 & Evolution Register, i.e. VIPER.
When VIPER moved the class structure from the predominately Pre 80 structured format to the MA MOM GCR's Evolution & Pre85 it meant that the inclusion of Pre80 in the acronym no longer had any relevance.
To recognize the shift from a Pre80 & Evolution competition, the VIPER committee, which i was a part of at the time, changed the acronym to Pre85 & Evolution in 2007, the same time that Pre80 was cut.
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The thing to remember was that VIPER was a break away group formed to accommodate a new, younger group of riders that wanted something more than what was on offer at the time, i.e. the Pre60 to Pre 78 classes and weren't interested in racing modern bikes. What was formed was the Victorian Pre80 & Evolution Register, i.e. VIPER.
Yes VIPER was a breakaway group but as was confirmed by CanAm 370(who was also around at the time) it was originally pre 80 without Evolution. There were only pre78 ,(which weren't on offer at VCM they had a "New Era" class which allowed a few very early long travel bikes mainly from the 75 and 76 years) and pre 80 in VIPER.There was 3 graded class's ,clubman,intermediate,expert and they also ran a 4th pro class at least once.
As I already said the Evo class didnt eventuate until 1997.I think Tony McMahon might have been the one who put the idea forward.His Retro Racing shop was a focal point for vmx and I remember lots of discussion going on after Evo was introduced.He wanted Evo to replace pre 80 like we have now.He was importing Vintage Iron products and had lots of contact with Rick Doherty who ran Evo class's in his series in the US.At first the Evo class was a single all powers class that instantly became the "Elite" class .Some very good riders like Scott Henshaw who won the 250 pre 80 and Brendan Roberts who won the over 300 pre 80's the year before ditched those class's and saved themselves to battle in the Evo's.
The following year (I think)a vintage support class,which was Evo, was included at the Thumper Nats.Which saw some great 3 way duels between Henshaw, forum member Johnny O and Geoff Holmes.
By the way does anyone remember the year that VIPER offered a free trip to the US for the winner of the Pro or expert Evo class ?Noel Clarke won it from memory.
ps "Thread Killer" you are loosing your touch :D
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Sorry Moto, maybe this'll do it! ;)