OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rhodesy on August 17, 2011, 08:28:07 pm
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http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/12020199/worksite-trouble
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Well thats 10 megabytes and 3 minutes of my life that i will never get back, whats that got to do with VMX.
I noted a comment at the end - it said something about oxygen thief..... go figure
Brett
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"How dare that working class pleb speak to a university educated member of the elite like that. The builder probably hasn't even learn't to wash his hands after his morning shit let alone appreciate the greatness of a true artist. He deserves his bad back and skin cancer." ;) ;D
(oldyzman, there's a little 'x' in the top corner you can click on if you don't like what you see ;)).
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Well MX250, the skit may have been quite whitty, but i just expected to see something remotely to do with VMX...
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it said something about oxygen thief..... go figure
I thought the worker said "Kronic" -but who's judging its only General Discussion :)
cheers A
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correct me if im wronge.isn't in the general discussion section?
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Looks like i'm outvoted - all good Rhodsey?
Cheers
Brett
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So, to bring it 'on topic' I can tell you all of the 2nd yr mech engineering student that came to us for some 'hands on' experience as suggested and organised by his mum. The guy is 22 and been at uni for a few years before his dad suggested, as he is keen on cars, to do mech eng.
His very first question to me was-how does a 4 cycle engine work?-I thought ahhh....trick question, but no , he was serious!!
Over the couple of days he had with us I eventually got around to telling him-that the reason I had to remove the distributor from the engine to replace the engine mount was because some dip-stick, sitting at a desk, decided it would be at good idea to add an hour to a 10 minute job.
This(only one example) is happening more and more in the newer models and can really cock up what should be a simple task.
I still don;t know if he knew what I was talking about to this day.....
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His very first question to me was-how does a 4 cycle engine work?-I thought ahhh....trick question, but no , he was serious!!
There is always a lot of debate within Universities as to whether they are teaching academic degrees or vocational training ..... so there is always a kind of expectation of vocational skills from people trained in theory that is based around research and developing further theory.
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I can speak here from experience, I started as a telephone sparky, became a technician and then did a conversion course to a masters in engineering.
But I reckon it's all upside down. There should be a solid path from sparky to Phd that doesn't require starting again. And all engineers should start at the bottom and you should be able to stop when you want and restart when you want.
I've had the same experience with graduates without any experience. They're effing useless!
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Peter my experience was that I was pretty useless until I was about 35 (and I did the masters at night when working). When I was about 35 the theory and practical gelled. It was an epiphany!
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I got bored so I did a 3 yr course in Air Con and Refridge so I could regas my fridge.
Now I can design Aircon setups for Hi rises. ;D
Chucked the fridge away because the course never mentioned it. ::)
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I had a lecturer at uni once tell me a degree is just a license to learn. That means you get a theoretical license and then have to go out a get practicle experience.
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Once upon a time(in a land far far away) you used to go on to become an engineer after you completed your apprenticship.
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Once upon a time(in a land far far away) you used to go on to become an engineer after you completed your apprenticship.
Hear Hear :) in fact a very active forum member with a broad passion for all things too wheels and unusual taste in swinging arms ;D did just that . Worked his way up,put in the hrs and did the hard yards and now reaps the benefits , Respect 8) :)
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bill a very suspect taste in swingarms....lol
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Said member must have wet himself when he saw this s/arm on a DUCATI!!
(http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery/Ducati%20MH900e%20%204.jpg)
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The Bugger probably owns the bloody bike ;D
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A million bucks worth of engineering and pipework to make the swingarm and no chain guide to keep it in line if it gets loose worries me.
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But yes you are right, the Uni’s teach with no practical feel whatsoever. For example, when I (and many others) left uni I had no idea how to use Excel; however it is the number one tool a civil engineer uses every day.
a University is NOT and should NOT be about vocational training.. A degree is about grounding in fundamental theory and principles, a scientific approach, promotion of the powers of mind, imparting a go-find out view. Learn excel? There are thousands of training pages and videos on Microsoft's 'technet' web-pages. Nothing at all to do with the theory and principles of being a civil engineer. They drive too - should that be in the Uni degreee? I'd rather see you oh, comprehend GIS systems, somehow. TAFE is not University. Two very different intentions.
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One of my tasks as a lowly fitter n turner was to figure out how to turn highly trained and paid engineers ideas into reality.
Boiler makers also came up against the same problems.
I have had to tell engineers and draftsmen that what they had thought up or drawn was impossible to make/do.
Engineers are NOT held in high regard by the people down in the real world.
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One of my tasks as a lowly fitter n turner was to figure out how to turn highly trained and paid engineers ideas into reality.
Boiler makers also came up against the same problems.
I have had to tell engineers and draftsmen that what they had thought up or drawn was impossible to make/do.
Engineers are NOT held in high regard by the people down in the real world.
Absolutely Mike...The bane of my 14 years as a boilermaker with the NSW Department of Health was having to explain to engineers that their designs were often brilliant on paper but totally unworkable in reality. We had a chief mechanical engineer who was straight out of university and straight onto the shop floor with no stops in between. Because we worked in the hospital system my structural work was mainly in stainless steel so I was gobsmacked to find that boy wonder was totally unaware of the different grades of stainless and totally ignorant of the intracies of the various welding techniques. His main gift to humanity was being able to design CAD software that was impossible to fathom. To make matters worse he was one of those "I'm the boss, do as I say" kind of blokes who rarely took sensible suggestions from lesser beings (tradesmen) on board. Because of his lack of respect for the input of older, more experienced and more knowledgable tradies the fitter and sparky turnover was extraordinarily high.
Another horror of my work life was making a hospital and associated laundry 100% OH&S compliant and still allow for humans to actually enter and work in the bloody place. These "fist full of diplomas" engineers and OH&S inspectors more often than not had no concept of human interaction with machinery in the workplace. The whole reason for their existence seemed to be to make the workplace idiot proof by making it impossible to actually use a piece of equipment the way the original designer and manufacturer intended.
Having to deal with "the system" was a major factor in my taking early retirement.
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It's the same as every other occupation in the real world. There are good ones and bad ones ;)
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I think that generally there is a lack of respect from both parties in these situations , the graduate generally feels he is superior due to his obtaining a degree or too . While the tradie knows hes superior due to the fact that he can actually do the job on the ground ;)
Lukes post makes sense but the reality is that before being released into the real world these grads need to spend some time learning some practical hands on skills. Problem is of course they have spent yrs at shcool and now expect to be paid a paultice because they know the theory.
I suppose in real world terms if the shit hit the fan globaly and we had to rebuild from scratch, with what ever was left in the aftermath , or you were stranded on a desert island, who would you rather have in your corner ;)
The original cartoon sums it up for me when ole mate says " just cos you can draw a dog with 6 legs dont mean you can make one "
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I think that generally there is a lack of respect from both parties in these situations , the graduate generally feels he is superior due to his obtaining a degree or too . While the tradie knows hes superior due to the fact that he can actually do the job on the ground ;)
Lukes post makes sense but the reality is that before being released into the real world these grads need to spend some time learning some practical hands on skills. Problem is of course they have spent yrs at shcool and now expect to be paid a paultice because they know the theory.
Yeah, the whole superiority complex of graduates just out of uni is one of the biggest things going against them. Often related to their age ::). Once you have convinced them (with the help of some wise old tradies) that they have only learnt half the story most of them come good. Then there are the ones that continue to think they know everything all their lives ::). It all comes down to a willingness to listen and learn. Anyone that thinks they know everything about everything is doomed ;D
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Universities SHOULD BE teach vocational training. After all, isn’t the idea of a Uni degree to get a job?
Well no. That's where the Australian University system differs from your idea of what a University is for.
TAFE is about practical training. There is a hint there in the name - Technical and further Education. CAE's were a half-way house. A University is NOT and should not be about training boiler-makers or tin-smiths or world-class welders. A degree holding engineer is a beginner, but he is an engineer, not a labourer or tradesman. He can now grow and develop over his career, because he has the theoretical underpinnings that NO tradesmen will ever have the time to attain. If you are asking an engineer to be a skilled tradesman, then there is or will quickly be, a disconnect! Someone mentioned a Chief Engineer straight out of Uni. That is a management failure of epic proportions and should never be filled with a graduate. Don't blame the engineer or the tradesmen on the floor. That issue lies squarely with some moron in an executive position.
Should we have every damned job require a 'degree' - of course not! The stupidity of that comes up endlessly. I know of fairly straightforward roles that any of us could do, with a bit of in-house training, that absolutely do NOT require the deep fundamentals, yet those same roles are advertised as requiring a Masters Degree, FFS!
This is where the system today is an utter shambles. WAY too many positions are advertised asking for a degree. Utterly irrelevant to the role... A highly skilled tradesman is often what they want, yet the demand is for a degree holder. Screwing up - not the tradesman, not the degree holding Engineer - the bloody management!
Luke
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Luke your right :) but what troubles me is why these super educated beings would apply for or accept a job they have no comprehension of ???
When they have accepted said position they generally waltz in like their shit dont stink and try to bullshit there way through (rather than listen to those mugs on the shop floor ) so they can climb the ladder ASAP and become the cluless git at the top of the pile who then appoints another super graduate and so the circle is complete ::)
Your correct it is the system thats at fault though.
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I think part of it is that the tradie knows what's involved in making something. How much product and time and effort is reqd to make the end product and so has a fair idea what it's worth-or how much someone should get paid to make it.
The other bloke says to himself-thats how much I should make a year so therefore someone must pay that much for my time and effort and that's how it will be regardless.
And there-in lies alot of the worlds current issues.
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Quote .....he is an engineer, not a labourer or tradesman. He can now grow and develop over his career, because he has the theoretical underpinnings that NO tradesmen will ever have the time to attain.
A Tradesman has a better understanding of how it goes together and is able to be flexible no matter what..... this is what makes a good tradesman, and better still if he makes a fork up can easily deal with it rather than dwell over it Its' the tradesmen that turn their dreams into reality.
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I'd consider the degree as reflecting a CAPACITY to learn and an indicating a certain doggedness to achieve a goal. It doesn't help with life skills and experience - only time helps there - tradey or not.
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Some of you guys are kinda missing something. Most of your comments are perfectly valid but the diffs between an artisan and an engineer is when things get really complicated. When there are forces at work that are not immediately apparent. As an example consider feedback and its implications. A system can very easily become unstable if not designed correctly and the diffs between a stable and unstable design can be very subtle indeed. This is where that theoretical background is sooooo important.
Yes, a lot of the time an artisan can replace an engineer but occasionally you need an engineer to do the design work.
I cannot stand arrogant recent grads. There is no shame in asking for the opinion of a experienced tradie. Suck it up man. A good tradie is a person of great value. Learn to appreciate and value them.
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Some of you guys are kinda missing something. Most of your comments are perfectly valid but the diffs between an artisan and an engineer is when things get really complicated. When there are forces at work that are not immediately apparent. As an example consider feedback and its implications. A system can very easily become unstable if not designed correctly and the diffs between a stable and unstable design can be very subtle indeed. This is where that theoretical background is sooooo important.
Yes, a lot of the time an artisan can replace an engineer but occasionally you need an engineer to do the design work.
I cannot stand arrogant recent grads. There is no shame in asking for the opinion of a experienced tradie. Suck it up man. of A good tradie is a person great value. Learn to appreciate and value them.
Spoken like a true condesending graduate ::)
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;D
(Don't forget I started as a tradie)
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;D
(Don't forget I started as a tradie)
And how many times you jumped countries or been unemployed in the last 10 years ;) sometimes its best to stick at what you know ;D
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I've met arseholes at every level.
The ones that walk all over people on the way up need to remember that they may still be there on the way back down.
Having said that I've been guilty of giving it to people who I thought deserved it, at the time and I've also copped a few on the chin.
Everyone has there own level of education, capability or ambition.
I thought the clip was very true & funny.
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And how many times you jumped countries or been unemployed in the last 10 years ;) sometimes its best to stick at what you know ;D
Ow!
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And how many times you jumped countries or been unemployed in the last 10 years ;) sometimes its best to stick at what you know ;D
Ow!
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Come on Tim a true Aussie tradie would see the humour ;)
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Perhaps at another time I would too it's really painful at the mo'. Sorry Bill, it's not personal but I've had a rough ride recently.
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Haven't we all mate ::) but you cant take life to seriously , lifes not a practice inspite of what those Jesarse freaks will tell yer you dont get a 2nd go :) If you can get up in the morning you still got most of your limbs and a bike or 60 in the shed your better off than many.
Mate i need a manager to run a towing outfit in the winterless north :) moneys rubbish hrs are worse and you will become an insensitive prick in no time ;) No degree needed just a good work ethic a sense of humour and a golden gloves title would be an advantage ;D send us your cv .
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If you are asking an engineer to be a skilled tradesman, then there is or will quickly be, a disconnect!
It’s not about the Engineer knowing how to swing a hammer or lay a bead of weld, more that they should be more aware of the constraints of tooling for any given job.
As a sheetie I have often found Draftsman / Engineers don’t have a clue about what is possible within the machines of the factory.
Simple things like knowing how close a step fold can be, as most folders and presses have a minimum distance between folds.
So many times I have been given engineering drawings only to find when you study them for cutting sizes you discover all sorts of contradictions in the measurements. CAD should have phased that out these days as the computer does all those calculations for you, but it raises doubts about their ability to calculate stress loads when they can’t add up a few measurements.
We currently have an Architect running the country at the moment.
She has drawn up a green six legged dog.
She is so proud of her design and wants to be remembered for generations (she will)
Some academics are patting her on the back telling her what a great thing this will be for mankind.
However, a lot of the ‘doers’ of the country have doubts that it will ever be able to walk straight.
It is felt that it will surely handicap our country as most other countries are still using the tried and proven four legged black dog.
It will however create more work for other Architects as they try to sort out the problems the design creates.
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Bloody well put GMC. That puts it all into the correct prospective.
Footnote inserted here> (are all VMXers Liberals?? as there are no detracters of our comments regarding the Blood Nutter and her wayward "engineering")
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Luke is right on the money !
I to was skeptical of the worth of an engineer in our business. Now having worked closely with a mechanical engineer for the last 16 years, the knowledge he has imparted on me is invaluable and has only complimented my mechanical knowledge. I now have a much clearer understanding of calculating loads, limitations, metals and stress factors than I would ever of learnt on the tools.
Dont be so quick to undervalue the worth of these people as they can be a great asset.
( he can also TIG weld with the best of them)
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Luke is right on the money !
I to was skeptical of the worth of an engineer in our business. Now having worked closely with a mechanical engineer for the last 16 years, the knowledge he has imparted on me is invaluable and has only complimented my mechanical knowledge. I now have a much clearer understanding of calculating loads, limitations, metals and stress factors than I would ever of learnt on the tools.
Dont be so quick to undervalue the worth of these people as they can be a great asset.
( he can also TIG weld with the best of them)
I dont think any of us undervalue GOOD engineers and what they bring to the table ;) the problem as illistrated very well in the original cartoon , is when a freshly qualified grad turns up on site believing his shit dont stink and that the universe does revolve around him ::).
The reailty is he has no comprehension whatsoever of how the real world works ::) or any real world (read practical ) experience of the job.
Its the naievety and arrogance of these pricks that shits most tradesman.
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Its the naievety and arrogance of these pricks that shits most tradesman
Hallelujah Brother Bill!
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When I finished my trade I was INVITED to go on and become an Engineer.
Too many nice shelas/bikes/parties and cars to be bothered. ;D
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I wrote a diatribe on here about some of my experiences with engineers [in a previous life,] however in my enthusiasm to edit my work I hit the wrong button and the lot disapeared never to be seen again, so stuffit. Most of the previous posts covered it all anahoo.
cheers pancho.