OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: Captain Bilko on March 31, 2011, 09:26:31 pm
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I can't help thinking at times that people tend to manufacture their idea of how they'd like the past to be.
Nobody seems to be interested in the bikes that were available. The bikes that won races around the country and were the pride and joy of the working class bloke (or blokette)
Apart from the done to death 490 Maico in all its guises, nobody seems to care a lot about the production bikes of the time.
YZ 465's only get a mention if they're still in the crate or have some mad price on them. Or the YZ 400 f
RM 400n's. There were a zilliion of them around in 1979. People only talk about their braking backing plates.
The 125's and 250's of the eighties (which were the death knell for the 500's) seem to be just a little too boring....
This came to me whilst thinking about a blokes Can Am Sonic (amids the usuall babblings about how HL's and CCM's ruled the planet). Sure there weren't a lot of them (Sonics) about but they sure do seem to go really good. I suppose you could have bought one and they look pretty exotic to me. They barely rate a murmur.
My own favorite model gets nothing but derision from the ignorants who know nothing about them let alone ridden one.
No other Husky apart from the 'Silver Bullet' gets a look in.
Nobody talks about late 70's KTM 250's but I've seen one from Bendigo that was blindingly fast. No KTM's really apart from the Penton stuff and the 495's
What about a KX 420? Grouse lookin' bikes! Nup
Maybe it's just this place.... :(
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Here Here, well spocken 66m, totally agree, most people want the best models, the best models are only as good as the rider who is twisting the throttle.
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When we buy new bikes, we are sensible and pragmatic - we look at value for money and reliability and parts supply and all the rest.
When we buy old bikes, money is less of an issue and certain bikes develop a legend around them (that's often overstated). For a lot of us, actually going fast isn't as important as it is when we buy a modern - instead, we go for the bikes that we wished we could afford/give us the horn/whatever.
If the "legendary" Maico 490 was really that good, then every serious privateer would have bought one in the day. Even now, they don't turn an average rider into a moto-god and are not essential equipment to win VMX races.
People have been going nuts over post-VMX KX and CR500s - I understand the appeal, but there's a lot of nonsense spoken about them too. There's a number of bloody good reasons why they stopped making 500s... (And I've got a KX5 that I love - but I'm not kidding myself that I'm fast on it).
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I seem to think all of the bikes mentioned in the red post that are supposedly overlooked get a geurnsey on here and at the races. It's the obscure and unusual that are neglected by collectors and forum jockeys, not those bikes mentioned by Ross. I reckon they get plenty of support both here and at the track.
I don't quite follow your reply either Dave? ???
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Because VMX is broken down mostly into 5 year groups people tend to buy the latest models in that group so many models 2 or 3 years earlier than the cutoff date are overlooked.
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Dave, you remind me of the Ferangi star trek spices. Your brand loyalty extends no further than the next brand you are profiting from.
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Here Here, well spocken 66m,
Yes well spocken. Beam me up Scotty....
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People have been going nuts over post-VMX KX and CR500s - I understand the appeal, but there's a lot of nonsense spoken about them too. There's a number of bloody good reasons why they stopped making 500s...
Yes they stopped making them,though...I read just the other day from a very wise vmxer who suggested, the pre85 of today are our pre65&pre75's of tomorrow.
The Sunbeams,Sprites/AE,Mexican Callibella,CCM,Goldy etc makes of bikes are and will be colletors items.quote:It's the obscure and unusual that are neglected.
So to the question ..the real bikes are out there, though most are in sheds to stay and yes the HL500 thread has me in circles too ;D
cheers A
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;)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/funnies/ATT44438.jpg)
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In the light of a new day part of the problem rests with cut-off dates you're right. There's a perceived belief that a bike from the early part of an era ('85/'86 model in pre-90, '81/'82 models in Pre '85) just isn't gunna cut it with the later bikes of the era.
I reckon' the muscle bike mentallity probably has a lot to do with it as well.
I would have thought with the availability of great 1980's 125's, 250's, their availability of parts and things like Ohlins 360 barrels and other such off-the-shelf go fast gear that there'd be a storm of these bikes. But they're hardly touched on.
And for the life of me I can't work out why people will argue the merits of over-weight, ill-handling, average powered bikes 'till they're blue in the face over a run-of-the-mill, low cost two stroke production bike. :-[
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KTM won the 250 world title in 77 in fact they came 1,2,3. The 77 KTM is great bike and I'm building one to be ready for CD8. The 77 KTM 400 is one of the best vintage bikes you will ever ride as well.
The 81 bikes are great Evo bikes and IMO one of the best Evo bikes you can race. There are 3 open class KTM bikes for 81. 390, 420, and the arm strecher 495, plus the 250 is a great bike. If you can find a 1980 MX 125 you will have one of the best evo 125's as well.
Whilst the MX models are rare in Aus converted enduro bikes are just as good with a few mods.
There are more KTM's apearing in VMX now people are realising how good they were.
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Its the bum on the seat that counts for a lot in racing, not the latest bike in the class. I recall that the current pre '78 title is held by a '75 model Canam ; ::)
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Ross, give me the run of the mill converted/modded trailies and so called 2nd rate stocker mx'ers any day of the week. These are the bikes I and near all my mates grew up with. No matter how much bling is thrown at so called 'desirable' models or exotic chassis's these days they exhibit nil attraction to me (genuine works models excluded). Head over to the camping area B at CD8 and you'll see far more of the grass roots of mx history. Just my take but never in my wildest dreams would I expect everyone to agree ;)
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Nobody seems to be interested in the bikes that were available.
Not sure of your point, I am with Firko the ordinary bikes get plenty of space on the forum, also you go to mention the Can Am Sonic, seems that is the exact opposite of what you are describing as it was scarcely available or ordinary run of the mill low cost 2 stroke at the time.
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My point is that people don't seem to go off the deep end about Sonics and yet from the point of veiw as an Evo (four stroke) racing bike they probably deserve as much attention (if not more) as the other 4t Evo bikes that people are always banging on about.....
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Lets equate to women.
2T 2 stroke: slim, fit, demure, purposeful, not too much make up, what you see is what you get, not model material but a damn good look;
Can Am sonic: a tad chubbier but pretty much as above, the "girl next door" type.
The other 4T (we all know which one): where do I start? This one is the "mutton dressed up as lamb" old hag sitting in the corner of the nightclub, blinged to the hilt, getting pissed off her brain but still can't drag a root.
Cheers,
K
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I dont think people dislike the sonic, its just that there are not many round and its probably cheaper and easier to build a HL 'replica' either from a frame kit or some sort of modified frame with a RM/PE swingarm and then call it a HL. I think the rarity of the sonic would put people off and they would rather the easy factor of doing a Yammy motor thats easy to get genuine and aftermarket parts for rather than the Canam where you would have to go to one of the half a dozen or so specialists worldwide and track down the parts. For some that is too hard and expensive. The Sonics that do pop up on ebay etc are often missing a lot of the original essential parts which can make it a bit too hard for someone to restore. There was one on ebay a while back like that and i know someone who was interested in it put was put off by the high price the guy was asking for it where it was missing a lot of the key parts. Ive seen some that were missing the right forks, shocks, plastics etc which can make it hard to do for some. Thats why a custom bike like a HL, CCM, or C&J Honda etc can be easier to do as you can sort of do them how you like as they are specials and i think thats where it has got out of hand. Then the really good complete sonics are often asking really high prices, i think there was one asking 20 G at some point? I think some people are too scared to race a bike like that and wear it out so they would typically only buy it for collector/show value and not race it every weekend.
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Can -Am Sonic?? Jeez I've only ever seen two or three in my life. I'd have thought that they're a perfect example of the exotica that some don't understand. These are cool bikes but they're rarer than CCM's in Australia. The reason people "bang on" about HL Yamahas, C&J Hondas is that anyone can own one if they so please. Yamaha XT/TT and XL/XR Honda engines are cheap and easily found and you can buy replica frames from GMC or elsewhere for not a great deal of money.
It all comes back to different strokes for different folks. It might come as a surprise to some but many people like to build their own bike, something away from the cookie cutter, same old same old mentality. As a young bloke I used to see bikes like Cheneys, Metisses and Hindalls in bike magazines and wish I could own one. Unfortunately my apprentice boilermaker wages and the unavailability of such exotica in Australia prevented any hope of owning one. Now with eBay making the world much smaller and being in a stronger (slightly) financial position I can now build the bikes of my youthful dreams. I'm not alone in this either, there's a bit of hot rodder in many of us, to us there's nothing better than building something unique, reflecting a bit of our own personality.
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i agree with firko its easy to get hold of things now to build you hot rod vmx or dirt track bike.i have nearly finished a staracer tt/xt 500 yamaha.its not to pretty at the moment but i have raced the motor when it was in a xt frame at last years pre 75 pre 85 day at nepean and it is fast.it was built by my brother and runs on methenol and has hi comp piston and wiz bang cam.i am also going to build a long track xl350 honda.
it will cost twice as much to get the honda only 3/4 of the power of the yamaha.
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something i did a lot more of when i got into this VMX game but tend not to do as much of now is to
"walk the pits".
it's amazing what can be right under our noses and completely overlooked all day long if we don't
"open our eyes" and take a good look.
the pits at a BMCC club day turns up more than our fairshare of all makes and models.
we've got a good thing going ;) VMX in general i mean.
love the one your with and all that :)
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I dont think people dislike the sonic, its just that there are not many round and its probably cheaper and easier to build a HL 'replica' either from a frame kit or some sort of modified frame
Cheaper.... when was the last time you built an HL replica or otherwise ::). The mechanicals of the Sonic are no big deal as it is the Rotax 4 banger thats fitted to a lot of bikes. Its a decent chassis with a 4 stroke engine, alloy swingarm, Ohlins piggy back shocks, 44mm forks..... all that is really missing is a YZ125c tank.... I mean it is not like most HL reps don't have all those things.
Anyways in VMX people go off the deepend as you say about certain bikes as they have a kind of iconc status, this is evident by the premium price some bikes command, and may or may not have any relationship to performance, history or logic.
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb259/brebel327/canam.jpg)
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Besides saving "exotic" custom framed bikes from skip bins, my other passion is the Doc theory of turning supposedly ordinary and dull old trail bikes into reasonably competitive and fun racers. I'm full of admiration for people like Doc, Vandy and Nathan who can go out and turn a lump of neglected shit into a legitimate racer and enjoy the experience.
The further we travel as a sport the more room we have for all sorts. I'm continually amazed at the quality of the restos going on in suburban sheds by guys who have no professional qualifications other than a passion for what they're doing. I'm equally impressed when I see a humble old DT1 or XL Honda transformed into a racer capable of putting a smile on its owners dial. It might not be the most competitive bit of tackle on the paddock but is that the main aim in why we build our bikes? I've got some nice bikes in my shed but the ones that give me the most pride are those that I've rescued from becoming landfill or have assembled from a ute full of unrelated cast offs. There's room in our sport for everything from a high bling CCM right through to a daggy looking old RT1 beater. The pride of ownership factor has nothing to do with how much the bike cost, it's all about the passion involved in its ownership. ;)
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The pride of ownership factor has nothing to do with how much the bike cost, it's all about the passion involved in its ownership. ;)
You hit the nail on the head Firko.
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Cheaper.... when was the last time you built an HL replica or otherwise. The mechanicals of the Sonic are no big deal as it is the Rotax 4 banger thats fitted to a lot of bikes. Its a decent chassis with a 4 stroke engine, alloy swingarm, Ohlins piggy back shocks, 44mm forks..... all that is really missing is a YZ125c tank.... I mean it is not like most HL reps don't have all those things.
what i was meaning is when people chop up a XT/TT frame, fit YZ forks RM/PE swingarm etc and then call it a HL replica or buld a DRM400/500 for example.
Yes i am fully aware how much $ a proper type HL500 costs to do properly, not cheap.
I can understand you but try telling that to the average bloke who sees the Canam as a rare exotic bike. There are plenty of Yamaha dealers you can just walk into and buy parts from, but most will find it hard to walk down the street and find a canam shop to order parts for a sonic from and that would be off putting for some, especially the non internet wise ones.
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Just reading on Bloomberg about riggers up North on over 220 grand per year .... whole country should be riding exotics, CCMs and MC490s with that kind of cash floating about.
Anyway Leith, I agree a very good reason to actually build an HL500 is that you can just walk into Yamaha and buy everything as the engine is still in production with very few modifications over the decades. Makes HL rep cheap prospect to run and own. If you use current version Ohlins then shock services are also not an issue, plastics, everything is available.
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Its hard for me to comment on what was a real bike back in the day (on this side of the world ) as i didn't arrive hear till late 82 .
However i grew up and started my racing in the UK in the mid 70s. As i remember it in Schoolboy racing Suzukis were by far the most popular ride and in the youngest classes (cadets) Italjets were very popular .
In Seniors again it was a Japanese benefit with Maico being the most popular Euro brand by far . The 78 ,79 Maicos were the choice of clubman riders and seemed to turn ordinary riders into podium finishers . There were obviously a fair spread of other euro brands and British built specials .
I dont recall seeing any HLs other than Abergs at the GPs , i do remember the Hagon Eastwood monoquoce Yams though and obviously a number of CCMs . The only bikes i remember being regulary push started were CCMs , i dont recall Maicos being hard to start .
As for top riders on different brands in late 70s UK , Neil Hudson on Maico , Andy Roberton on Montesa , Vic Allan on Bultaco, Bob Wright CCM , Vic Eastwood Hagon , Pete Mathia Cotton, EMX Dave Tomasik KTM .
I came to NZ in 82 and the scene was 99% Japanese with a few Huskys thrown in and still no HLs ;)
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Sounds like you missed the boat Bill......dont go and do anything stupid.... ;D
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I still don't quite understand the original intent of this thread. I've been involved in VMX for 25 years and I reckon what we are seeing at the track generally reflects the fields during the respective divisions golden eras. The Maicos, Husky's, CZ's TM's, MX's, Pursangs and Cappras that ruled the roost during the pre 75 era are still out there and in the later classes the big four Japanese marques are still the most popular weapons of choice. I'm sure there must have been one or two 414 Cappras, Mk 9 Pursangs and Can-Ams racing in NSW in the late seventies and early eighties but I honestly don't recall them. There weren't all that many Maicos either.....Ross King only imported a tiny number of 490 motocrossers when compared to the enduro models. The Jap/Euro ratio may have been different in other states but in NSW we rarely saw Euro bikes (other than Husky) on the motocross scene.
Where things have changed in today's scene is the internet providing a viable alternative bike market, allowing us to purchase bikes that we'd previously only dreamed of owning. The huge influx of 490 Maicos and other bikes previously seen as exotica can be put down to the ease of importing from America. The popularity of HLs in Australia is almost certainly because the replica frame maker is right here and the easy access to XT/TT 500 engines . Despite the increased number of Maicos and a few HL's, the Japanese dominated status quo in the pre 90/Evo divisions remains the same. The real bikes have been out there all the time ;) .
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66M, Why dont you just come out and say it. Stop F*#King with REAL motocross bikes and stealing parts for pretenders that are wantanbe modern slow strokers.
How many YZ125C's have been pulled apart to make an over-rated pogo-stick that are louder than a Blinkco490 with red tyres.
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DJ...I really doubt that too many people would break up a complete bike for a bloody tank. That's what eBay and, swapmeets and wrecking yards are for. I just don't understand why people hate HL's so much?? Bikes just like the HL have been a part of our sport for as long as it's existed. Racers have forever been looking for ways of getting around the track easier and faster. Back in the early fifties our uncles discovered that the BSA Gold Star frame suited the rigors of scrambles and that the Triumph twin was a good engine for the purpose so voila!, the TriBSA was born. Then along came the Rickman brothers who reckoned they could do it better again and thus was created the Metisse which gave a suitable home for everything from the Bultaco 250 to the 750 Norton. Eric Cheney, Alan Clews (CCM) and many more carried on the tradition. Every one of these bikes used parts from donor bikes or wrecking yards and they are real bikes. The HL replica is just continuing a long tradition that started in the 1920's when some brave punters fitted JAP engines to spindly OK Supreme frames in a bid to create a better scramble/motocross bike. Just because an HL doesn't appeal to your idea of what a motocross bike should look like doesn't mean that they're any less important in the make up of our sport.
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BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER MEN.
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66M, Why dont you just come out and say it. Stop F*#King with REAL motocross bikes and stealing parts for pretenders that are wantanbe modern slow strokers.
How many YZ125C's have been pulled apart to make an over-rated pogo-stick that are louder than a Blinkco490 with red tyres.
It's the screams that keep me awake at night DJ.
The screams of all those YZ 465's that have had their front ends ripped off of 'em to help make these monstocities....
Sorry 'Uncle' (as you seem to known now) Firko but I did deviate from what I was originally talking about true. But I sorta mean the same thing in a way.
I just can't understand why all of the effort goes into bikes that really never were on the Australian scene (I'm not even game to mention 'em anymore) when there were bucket loads of good production bikes that if left mostly un-molested would be capable of piloting most average riders around an MX track in style.
Also I'd like the vibe of seeing bikes that were around then, racing now. You know. Someone who doesn't know a lot about it can watch a race and go "Gee. There were an awful lot of RM's and YZ's around then wasn't there." Instead of these bikes that if the "onus of proof" was really put to the owners (it rarely is) they'd be loading up and going home. Good. Come back when you have a VMX bike with you.
I can't understand that you Firko can say on one hand "I don't want any of these works replica type bikes out there on the track because people will be riding any old thing around" and in the next breath come out with "These HL replicas with just about any old hardware bolted to them are just fine".
Although, when I think about it, I can work it out.... ::)
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I believe in function before style. When considering buying a VMX bike, I usually try to select what I think will be the best bike available in the class that I intend to ride it in. I may not be the fastest rider, but I like to think that I have competitive gear . If a motocross bike is not as good as other bikes in its class, then I consider that it has failed the functionality test. I also usually find that if a certain model bike is competitive in its class, the cool factor or style follows along with it anyway .
This is why I don't like the long legged HLs very much and all the hype that goes with them, as I don't consider them to be a very competitive bike for evolution class. I am sure that there are some guys that can go fast on them , but I think that they would go even faster on something more competitive. Even if there was a fourstroke evo class, a twinshock Husky 510 would run rings around a HL . A pre '78 class legal HL Yamaha would be a different story though , as I think one of these would go very well in pre '78 open class.
Can Am Sonics (they have 42mm forks, not 44mm, by the way) were mentioned earlier in this thread. I own one of these and think that it is a good fun bike to ride and a great trailbike . But I wouldn't say that they are all that good as a race bike, as they are a bit heavy.
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i have just bought a tt500 frame and engine.might make some sort of trail bike out of it.
any one got ang ideas
ps
the frame hase been deraked for flattrack
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I dont hate HLs that are built like the original 77 models its those gangly ugly shitters i cant stand :P
I cant see any difference between one of those or me bolting in a 1983 CR 480 front end and laid down 17.5" Fox air shocks to a 73 TM 400 , add a RM 125B tank and call it a TL ::)
I would be laughed out of the joint yet mr ugly HL is apparantly welcomed , Neither bike was around in the day in that spec as generally the idea was to win races and there were much better options for that available off the show room floor.
I really do like specials and hybrids but a lot of the HLs you see these days are a true definition of bad taste or just taking the piss .
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i have just bought a tt500 frame and engine.might make some sort of trail bike out of it.
any one got ang ideas
ps
the frame hase been deraked for flattrack
The hot ticket on this is to throw away the frame, buy a Montesa, ditch the motor and cut and shut the frame to fit the TT500 motor into it. I think Montesa/TT500 hybrids will become the next new trend.;D
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A Montin-franken Bernie....you might start something here... :D
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I can't understand that you Firko can say on one hand "I don't want any of these works replica type bikes out there on the track because people will be riding any old thing around" and in the next breath come out with "These HL replicas with just about any old hardware bolted to them are just fine".
That's not what I said Ross. I have no objection whatsoever to so called ''works replicas'' racing. People are free to build and race whatever they want as long as it fits into a particular class structure. What pisses me off is these bikes being labeled as works replicas when they have no resemblence to the real thing whatsoever. On the other point, HL Yamahas are generically called HL's but you rarely hear of one called an 'HL works replica' or to be specific an 'Aberg replica' unless it's a pretty close representation of the real thing. Most of these high and mighty long travel HL replicas have no historic precedent but there are a few out there with 38mm forks etc. that fit into my interpretation of replica. Whatever......It's all opinion. I personally don't care that much for HL's but respect the blokes who do's right to build them any way they want. Others on the other hand seem to be rabid haters of the bloody things and aren't about to change their opinions because of a couple of forum posts, so be it. I can't see what the whole kerfuffle is about. I personally welcome the variety and colour that specials bring to our sport.
Sorry 'Uncle' (as you seem to known now) Firko
Actually Ross I prefer Mark. The 'Uncle Firko' tag originally comes from my friends teenage daughter who's called me that since she was tiny. When I turned 60 a couple of the 'good 'ol boys' started calling me that as a pisstake. I sign off on some PM's and emails as Uncle Firko but to my knowledge haven't publicly used the tag, which causes me to wonder where you got that little snippet from? ;D
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crash
so i wait till my 1969 montesa cappra gp5 turns up at the end of september (see my montesa gp5 pics in montesa)and fit the tt500 motor in it.
only 1 question
how do i get it passed as pre 1970
cheers
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Your just being stupid now Jimini cricket.....this is a serious conversation ....... ;D
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yes i know just haveing some fun
but monty and tt500 stuff will be in my shed in september but they will never cross dress
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Hey Jim, if you have the motor I have the frame ;) 8).
(That would put Ross into a tail spin ;D)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/montesa/SimmosMontyYamaha.jpg)(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/montesa/Copy2ofSimmosMontyYamaha.jpg)
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Hey Jim, if you have the motor I have the frame ;) 8).
(That would put Ross into a tail spin ;D)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/montesa/SimmosMontyYamaha.jpg)(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/montesa/Copy2ofSimmosMontyYamaha.jpg)
this monesa franken bike was built a long time ago ( pot this is kettle calling)
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Most of these high and mighty long travel HL replicas have no historic precedent but there are a few out there with 38mm forks etc. that fit into my interpretation of replica.
No historic precedent apart from the mountain of photos, the odd GP win and US 4 Stroke Nationals win. RJs bike was OW forked and taller than a block of flats.
I think like the Montesa Frankenbike, nicely put together TT500 specials have just as much right to be out there as anything else. Everything that has been said about the HL reps is also valid for the Rickmans, CCMs and any other 4 stroke special out there .... they were all part of the effort to build a better mousetrap.
" I would be laughed out of the joint yet mr ugly HL is apparantly welcomed ", hey Bill if that happens a lot to you it may not be the bike mate ;D
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(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/montesa/Copy2ofSimmosMontyYamaha.jpg)
That's the best use of a monty I've seen in a long time ;D
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(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/montesa/SimmosMontyYamaha.jpg)[img width=800 height=483]
Holds absolutely no interest to me at all. Just a waste of a good frame is all.
I agree with you Firko about not liking these other bikes that are branded as works replicas. Totally mis-leading. It also pisses me off as much though that these so called HL replicas are passes off as HL's (There's a fuggin' ocean of difference!).
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I can remember Dave Simpson riding that FrankenMonty along with a selection of nicely prepped Montesas early in the century. I photographed the bike for a potential ADB piece but it wasn't accepted because "nobody knows what the original looks like let alone one fitted with a 4 stroke engine". "Find something the punters can identify with"...was the reply from my then sub editor. This and other glimpses of wisdom helped me make my mind up that ADB and I were on different paths, leading to my eventual resignation after 20 years. ;)
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There is another option. A lot of Canam Sonics were bought by flattrack racers just for the motor. So there are quite a few brand new sonics with no motors floating around. Just wack a TT500 motor in and away you go. ;D
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I was rattling about on the track when Dave was slapping all the Viper boys with that bike. Dave was no slouch but the bike was the goods too. Very nice unit.
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I half built an XL350 Honda powered Montesa King Scorpion disguised to look like a VR Cappra a few years ago. I abandoned the project when I figured out that the Montesa frame weighed more than the original XL unit and sold it to Slakewell a few years ago......Have you still got it Mick?
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I half built an XL350 Honda powered Montesa King Scorpion disguised to look like a VR Cappra a few years ago. I abandoned the project when I figured out that the Montesa frame weighed more than the original XL unit and sold it to Slakewell a few years ago......Have you still got it Mick?
Firko that would have to be like an Anti Special selecting some of the worst items from multiple manufacturers and bolting them together. I hope you put period OEM deltec shocks and forks on it to complete the theme ;D ;D
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On the subject of specials i like the look of that XL250 elsinore lookalike in the latest VMX.
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On the subject of specials i like the look of that XL250 elsinore lookalike in the latest VMX.
+1 8)
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On the subject of specials i like the look of that XL250 elsinore lookalike in the latest VMX.
I like it too but in reality it's not really a "special" in the true sense. It's really just a nicely built XL with Elsinore tank and 'guards. I much prefer Edgar Phipps proper CR250 Elsinore fitted with a 480cc XL350 engine. Ed build this back in the early 90's and it was the killer bike in the 4 stroke class during its career. Ed's still got it but these days prefers to ride bikes with a bit less of a tendency to want to kill him. ;)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/elsinore2.JPG)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/elsinore6.JPG)
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Back on Monty specials for a sec, here's what I had in mind when I was building my Monda/Hontesa...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/monty%20honda.jpg)
Or if you want to keep the two stroke theme alive, fit a CZ380 engine and offend both CZ and Monty camps ;D.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/MONTYcz.jpg)
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Gee the engine is a long way back in the frame. I wonder what that did to the renowned Monty handling ::). I can't imagine it been a 'good thing'.
I saw another Honda Monty hybrid of that period. I wonder where.......
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/monty%20honda.jpg)
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That's an unusual combination. I would love to ride something like this back to back with their donor bikes just to see how much the character of the motor effects the handling of the bike.
It would be an interesting exercise.
I have a similar, but butchered, Monty H6 frame here. I was eying a DT400 motor with similar thoughts ::).
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/MONTYcz.jpg)
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it appears that people at least felt the monties handled OK. ;)
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Graeme, that's a little SL125 engine in the Monty so I'd imagine it fits in the frame with lots of room all round. On the other hand the CZ motor seems a bit of a squeeze.
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it appears that people at least felt the monties handled OK. ;)
Most of the Spanish bikes were all nice handlers.
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I half built an XL350 Honda powered Montesa King Scorpion disguised to look like a VR Cappra a few years ago. I abandoned the project when I figured out that the Montesa frame weighed more than the original XL unit and sold it to Slakewell a few years ago......Have you still got it Mick?
No Firko I'm not even sure were that ended up. Would have made a good boat anchor that frame. It may have ended up with the stuff I sold to Harry or it's out at Daryle's place with the other 100 projects. Bill Holm is looking for a SL 125 project to ride in is old age he tells me so if you know of a good one let him know.
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All the talk about different engine / bike combo`s i can`t wait to see this creation get around the track, my big gut is telling me it will be a challenge to catch.
Looks really well engineered, you can just see the twin exhaust set up as well. Peter.
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h337/kaw500/P3130669.jpg
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On the subject of specials i like the look of that XL250 elsinore lookalike in the latest VMX.
Yeah I really liked that bike as well .... but the bike that should have been on the cover was the Penda not some scruffy Can am that needs side covers to finish it off. But funny noticed a Can am Sonic sans motor the other day for cheap.... TT motor looks like straight swap.
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On the subject of specials i like the look of that XL250 elsinore lookalike in the latest VMX.
Yeah I really liked that bike as well .... but the bike that should have been on the cover was the Penda not some scruffy Can am that needs side covers to finish it off. But funny noticed a Can am Sonic sans motor the other day for cheap.... TT motor looks like straight swap.
Grrrrrrrr >:(.......and your dog too.
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But funny noticed a Can am Sonic sans motor the other day for cheap.... TT motor looks like straight swap.
You could buy about eight TT/XT/SR motors for the price of one good Rotax. XT 550/TT600 motor would go too.
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In regards to the Sonic. In my eyes 'some' restorers are nothing more than glorified assemblers of nos parts. This hardly represents any sort of real challenge and I for one was glad to see a real bike on the cover ;)
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On the subject of specials i like the look of that XL250 elsinore lookalike in the latest VMX.
Yeah I really liked that bike as well .... but the bike that should have been on the cover was the Penda not some scruffy Can am that needs side covers to finish it off. But funny noticed a Can am Sonic sans motor the other day for cheap.... TT motor looks like straight swap.
I couldn't agree with your more Marc, that Penda is a way cooler bike.
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I for one was glad to see a real bike on the cover ;)
Yep !! It sure was good to have a nice change 8)
cheers A
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Don't know how much cooler a bike can be if it generates a cold snap around it ::)
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What happened to all the real bikes-there still building them... ;) ;D seller greenstripe worth every US cent :P
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1974-Honda-CR-250-Elsinore-/130503021164?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item1e6296126c
quote:Professionally restored Honda 1974 CR-250. This is our 51st rebuild/restore of the 73/74 CR-250 Elsinore in the last 12 years, the only bike we do.
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This is our 51st rebuild/restore of the 73/74 CR-250 Elsinore in the last 12 years, the only bike we do.
I got bored after doing three Maicos in a row. I'd be bouncing off walls after restoring 51 identical bikes!.
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Most of these high and mighty long travel HL replicas have no historic precedent but there are a few out there with 38mm forks etc. that fit into my interpretation of replica.
No historic precedent apart from the mountain of photos, the odd GP win and US 4 Stroke Nationals win. RJs bike was OW forked and taller than a block of flats.
Did Aberg win the overall at the 77 Luxembourg GP ? i know he won the first race , was he runing the 3 valve head ?
The bike Aberg won on does not resemble those long travel nightmares we see these days ;)
Yes RJs bike won the Seppo diesel nationals against all the other diesels WOW :o if it was that forking good its a wonder he didn't race it in the proper nationals ;)
It was a novelty bike thats all :)
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I am with Bill on this one, FWIW. Another post (MarcFX I think) tells us that Yamaha have been producing the 500 engine for 35 years. So one can build a so-called "HL Replica" (which it demonstrably is not) with a 2011 frame and a 20-something engine; this has precisely what to do with VINTAGE MX?
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So one can build a so-called "HL Replica" (which it demonstrably is not) with a 2011 frame and a 20-something engine; this has precisely what to do with VINTAGE MX?
You can also build CCM, Cheney, Rickman, CZ, C&J, Maico 490, B44 GP etc with 2011 frame and 20 year old engine. My point was the HL is very parctical as a mount as the engine is still in production and you can buy spares straight over the counter.
Back to the subject, I think there are a lot of real bikes out there for grabs at the moment, out of the US you can really get some great bikes for cheap, I have TM400, YZ250A, Husky 73 CR 250 on the water at the moment..... all cheap as chips
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So one can build a so-called "HL Replica" (which it demonstrably is not) with a 2011 frame and a 20-something engine; this has precisely what to do with VINTAGE MX?
You can also build CCM, Cheney, Rickman, CZ, C&J, Maico 490, B44 GP etc with 2011 frame and 20 year old engine. My point was the HL is very parctical as a mount as the engine is still in production and you can buy spares straight over the counter.
Back to the subject, I think there are a lot of real bikes out there for grabs at the moment, out of the US you can really get some great bikes for cheap, I have TM400, YZ250A, Husky 73 CR 250 on the water at the moment..... all cheap as chips
They might be parctical , but i think the last time one won a race was when RJ won on his ;) Nice wobblers bike i suppose ;D
But your right though Marc , there are some bargains out there , Mate collected a super original YZ 250A right here in good old NZ just yesterday ;D
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But your right though Marc , there are some bargains out there , Mate collected a super original YZ 250A right here in good old NZ just yesterday ;D
Hmm did it used to belong to a very fast plumber formerly from Hawera. If its the same bike I believe there is about a 6 grand difference in the price tag between that one and mine....but you are right very original and worth whatever he paid.
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But your right though Marc , there are some bargains out there , Mate collected a super original YZ 250A right here in good old NZ just yesterday ;D
Hmm did it used to belong to a very fast plumber formerly from Hawera. If its the same bike I believe there is about a 6 grand difference in the price tag between that one and mine....but you are right very original and worth whatever he paid.
No must be a different bike ??? so is there another one up for grabs ?
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No must be a different bike ??? so is there another one up for grabs ?
Hmmm might be Bill ;) you told me you were skint.
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Not for me mate :) honesty i have ridden a couple and i wouldn't swap my 74 KX for one .
Im always skint :) but happy ;) my days of buying bikes just because ??? are behind me . Theres still a lot of the world i wouldn't mind seeing and buying more bikes aint gonna make that happen :)
I will probably get rid of a number over the next couple of years , either complete or as parts so i if imention buying anymore feel free to step in ;D
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Bill,let me guess was it a certain builder from Mt Wellington with a big guard dog who sold it to well known painter from WangaVegas???
Looks like the Mosque is getting filled up....
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I will probably get rid of a number over the next couple of years , either complete or as parts so i if imention buying anymore feel free to step in ;D
Did your family have an 'intervention' Bill, the counciling is really working ;D. I think you should sell me the 74/78 KX as part of your treatment.
Hey heres a real bike, as a former ATK owner I don't mind a good Can am, just I like them with side covers.... $900 looks good buying.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/15495354-15921-large.jpg)
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Fark I hope someone doesn't start knocking out leading-link front ends. Every RM n on the grid'll be wearing one and we'll be told "Stiff shit. This is how we want people to think it was" (because Rog did three laps on an RN with one on in 1979.....) ::)
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Fark I hope someone doesn't start knocking out leading-link front ends. Every RM n on the grid'll be wearing one and we'll be told "Stiff shit. This is how we want people to think it was" (because Rog did three laps on an RN with one on in 1979.....) ::)
Fark you are channeling my very thoughts, latest from Hectors racing, i was going to fit crappy old UDX60 forks to my RM500 but reckon these will give much smoother ride. ;D
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/811911958-0.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/nw-4s_052.jpg)
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Fark you are channeling my very thoughts,
I wonderered why I've had this mad urge to bum a yak lately :o
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Not for me mate :) honesty i have ridden a couple and i wouldn't swap my 74 KX for one .
Im always skint :) but happy ;) my days of buying bikes just because ??? are behind me . Theres still a lot of the world i wouldn't mind seeing and buying more bikes aint gonna make that happen :)
I will probably get rid of a number over the next couple of years , either complete or as parts so i if imention buying anymore feel free to step in ;D
In '99 I sold up most of my bikes to finance a 6 month road trip around the U.S. Got peanuts for most of them compared to today's prices. $600 for a MK7 370 Pursang, $700 for a mint running '75 Elsinore Aaarrrgggg.
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[/quote]I wonderered why I've had this mad urge to bum a yak lately :o
[/quote]
male or female ????
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Sorry to interrupt such intellectual postings,but Marc can you reply to my email when you can,re the US shipping query.
Cheers
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In '99 I sold up most of my bikes to finance a 6 month road trip around the U.S. Got peanuts for most of them compared to today's prices. $600 for a MK7 370 Pursang, $700 for a mint running '75 Elsinore Aaarrrgggg.
Yeah i know...i've still got the very original $700 mk8 250 Pursang i bought from you :)
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Sorry to interrupt such intellectual postings,but Marc can you reply to my email when you can,re the US shipping query.
Cheers
never got your email mate... just sent you one
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In '99 I sold up most of my bikes to finance a 6 month road trip around the U.S. Got peanuts for most of them compared to today's prices. $600 for a MK7 370 Pursang, $700 for a mint running '75 Elsinore Aaarrrgggg.
Yeah i know...i've still got the very original $700 mk8 250 Pursang i bought from you :)
I'll give $800 for it.
I had a VMX bloke at Gatton tell me I'll never get $700 for the Elsinore because it wasn't pre 75 elligible. I told him for $700 there was a lot of parts to keep a '74 on the track. I ended up selling it to some bloke who wanted to chase his kid around the paddock on his mini bike. It was that clean it still had the warning stickers on the tank.
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Bought that Canned ham yet Bernie? ;D
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I`ll give you $800 to be a fly on the wall and watch him bum a Yank, Ha Ha :D
I posted a VR frame through the Australia Post years ago, and the frame weighed in at 14 KG. and it cost 27 dollars to send it up to NSW.
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Have I missed something?
I've just realised that 'All things 414/66m/Captain Bilko', Ross Nimmo the creator of this particular thread, is no longer a member of this fine forum. Was there another bunfight that I missed causing him to be pushed or did he depart under his own steam?
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Firko check out the Dumgeon if you haven't already.
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Actually we much better on the HL500 thread and kept it together for 16 pages before it degenerated. ;D
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Firko check out the Dumgeon if you haven't already
Yeah I saw those posts Paul but Graeme quite generously stated that he wasn't going to ban them. Mr Nimmo must have departed under his own steam. The good 'ol boys will miss his wit and charm. ::)
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Personally I think this forum is going to be even more boring than it has been (batsh1t). At least Nimmo and Rudy added some spice :-\
(IMHO ::))
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Personally I think this forum is going to be even more boring than it has been (batsh1t). At least Nimmo and Rudy added some spice :-\
(IMHO ::))
You can be as spicy as you like but some guys are offended more easily than others and react differently. I have heard of members phoning about each other in a real stew about some things said on the forum.... some guys take being hassled on the forum really personally and others like my good self with a grain of salt.
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Agree totally ;)
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Personally I think this forum is going to be even more boring than it has been (batsh1t). At least Nimmo and Rudy added some spice :-\
(IMHO ::))
Aint that the truth.
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This forum being boring shit is starting to get up my nose. If it's not the forum you want do something about it. Sitting back waiting for someone else to entertain and inform you isn't the sole purpose for a forums existence. I challenge anyone to find a vintage motocross oriented forum that provides such diverse advice and general information as this one.
As far as forum bullies, it's easy to call them entertaining when youre not on the receiving end. Some of the stuff that you guys find adds spice to the forum is almost always at the expence of a victim. At school everyone sucked up to the schoolyard bullies because they didn't want to be a victim. It seems to be the same here. While most of the folks on here are big boys and can handle being slagged or made fun of, why should they have to and why should it happen on a forum dedicated purely to old bikes? Why do people have to be constantly critical of other peoples bike choices or anything else that has nothing to do with them? This whole aggressive behaviour thing is just plain fu*^ing wrong and it does nothing positive for this forum or for the bullies.
In the past I was guilty of being a bit aggressive with some people until I realised that I was acting like a bloody pork chop and cut back on the negative posts and pepped up the positive stuff. I reckon that 99% of forum members are here to share and learn about the VMX experience. If your main contribution to the forum is to belittle or take the piss out of others or expect others to entertain you, I think you're in the wrong place.
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Here here. Well put. We all are the forum, so lets play nice and enjoy what each one has to say.
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Geee wiz, I joined this forum because i'm interested in 1970s' motocross bikes. All of them.
I didn't expect a... 2 stroke versus 4 stroke versus the rest of the world, how much did it cost, debate.
I bought a 74 Montessa as my first racer, got laughed at, couldn't work out why I couldn't win C grade races on it,
so I bought a v75, still couldn't even get a place, so I bought a VA360, then the CCM. by now i'm in A grade
and the new Kwaka looked good. Guess what, I finally realised that if you turn that throttle right around till
it stops, and keep doing it, you'll win some races. It doesn't matter what your riding as long as it's competetive.
I guess what i'm trying to say is we can all joke and have fun as Aussies do but lets not get too serious.
As for CCMs' and Slick 500 Yammies, yep had both, also had a 78 KTM framed 550xt, that handled exceptionally well.
As for being exotic, what does that mean. Expensive ? The only reason a new 76 CCM was $600.00 dearer than a
new Yammy, is that most of that $600 was bloody import duty and air frieght. If they weren't airfrieghted out here,
no one would have been riding a current model. As it was they arrived half way through the season.
Huskies are crap... Tell Pele' that. Montessas' are crap... Tell Ronny Dinsdale. I used to love watching Steven Gall
at the dirt track on the 500tt. They're all good fellas. I'll take one of each.
Sorry for rambling .
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Firko ...... put like a gentlman ! Very true.
We are all here cos we love old bikes. The school playground is a distant memory.
Yep, I am biased slightly (just ever so slightly) towards my CCM's. Sodding expensive to run and maintain. But you can win on them :) The older I get the less that happens. But who cares ...... the smile is bigger.
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Ian ..... see PM.
Ran out of space, so it finishes a bit abruptly.