OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Vinduro => Topic started by: redrider1 on August 15, 2010, 03:43:56 pm
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Hey
With the increased participation in the vinduro scene is there any indication that it may become a competition based ride instead of a casual trail ride setup?
Interested to know of what direction it is likely to take. As with others aspects of motorcycle riding that has become competitive the costs involved start to rise very quickly putting people off joining in.
Keen to know peoples perspective on this.
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It won't become competitive that is it's main appeal ie stopping whenever you like riding as little or as much as you like they are just casual days where everyone has fun.
Some guys go really fast and do a heap of laps others don't that is what makes it fun there isn't set rules you can't really miss the start and you can leave whenever you'd like.
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I reckon there is room to have non competitive as well as competitive and then that gives the option to do either. There would be people who would like a competitive vinduro. Im not sure how you could do it at the same event unless you had different courses or run non competitive not at the same time as competitive to avoid slower? non competitive guys getting in the way of the faster guys racing, especially if its timed to the second.
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If it becomes competitive alot of people wont bother turning up which will in turn hurt entry fee takings,just my two cents .
Dale.
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You can always ride a competitive event 'non-competitively' ;) :D - but there is always that contradictory rule; 'when and where one one or more motorcycle shall meet there will be an event call a 'race' - GCR's 101. :D
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Gday redrider,
Or should we call you Honda mate! :D If you are keen for a bit of comp. riding there are a lot of enduro's held that run rally class :o This class has a time card and rides the same terrain as the pro classes and its intent is to let you run at the rear of the classes and experience what the concept of the event is all about. Or just ride vmx its getting pretty full on.
I personally am really looking forward to the masters games i think it will generate a lot more interest in the vinduro concept and that will be a good think to all those fellas that are stripping the lights off the classic enduro weapons to be involved in vmx because they don't have an event here in SEQ on a regular basis that i am aware of.
Husky AU
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It takes a fair bit more work to run a competitive enduro compared to a trail ride.
IMHO I would rather a competitive enduro than just a ride.
If things go right I hope to get one happening next year which will probably mean I won't get to ride it :(
This is a competitive classic enduro, I think I would bother to turn up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FVFezWSWQ&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FVFezWSWQ&feature=player_embedded)
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It takes a fair bit more work to run a competitive enduro compared to a trail ride.
IMHO I would rather a competitive enduro than just a ride.
If things go right I hope to get one happening next year which will probably mean I won't get to ride it :(
This is a competitive classic enduro, I think I would bother to turn up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FVFezWSWQ&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FVFezWSWQ&feature=player_embedded)
Interesting NSR.
I can think of a few guys to tell. :)
Where is ZSCHOPAU????? :)
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MX250 ,if you think people"race" anyway in non competitive vinduros why change,let those that want to race do so and let the cruisers cruise with no pressure.This is the whole reason i got into vinduros as i am the first to admit my competitive racing days are long gone but i still like the bikes of the era and to meet up with others with the same outlook is where it,s at for me.As for turning up NSR good one , i hope you "win".
Dale.
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i hope you "win".
I don't confuse having fun racing and having to win. I would be frustrated if I did :P.
Dale I understand where your coming from, and thats fine.
Cheers
Noel
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I would like to see a competition, but have classes for pre75 or 80 bikes but still keep vinduros pre 85. Just to get more of the older bikes involved otherwise everybody will be just riding ITs PEs XRs or KDXs.
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Quite happy to just cruise around a loop at my own pace enjoying my old enduro machines in the company of others . ;D
Non competitive format , probably creates more relaxed environment for the majority of vinduro enthusiasts. ;)
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You can have a 'competitive' class for those who want to race and a 'rally' or clubman' class that is not timed or what ever for those that want to cruise around and not 'compete'. With awards for the most laps completed currently, they are kinda getting close to being competitive anyway.
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I agree with NSR. Half the fun of Vintage Enduros is checkpoints-timecards-special tests etc.... That's why it's Vinduro not Vintrailride.... ::)
But seriously - there's no reason that you have to race in a Vintage (timed) Enduro - just have a Rally (non-competitive) class as well as the normal classes. Even without the Rally class, if you do away with the 'houring out' rule, there's no reason that anyone has to treat it as anything other than a trailride anyway. Do a lap when you want, don't take a time card etc... When you get to a checkpoint, if you aren't interested in the competitive side of it, just ride slowly through and laugh at the guys waiting for their minute to come up on the bundy clock! :D ;D ;)
And as for classes, I think age of bike is more important than capacity.. maybe you break it down to under 250 and over 250, but you probably don't need to go any further than that.
I think we had a good long talk about this a year ago. Pre 75, Pre 78, Pre 81, Pre 85 or similar?
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It's a great idea.........and a lot of work for someone to set up a genuine Vintage Enduro; no repeat trails, special test, manning etc. And they probably won't capture the old Qantastic, Forrest 400, etc etc days. We don't have the same easy access to public land and trails we once had. There has being an evil incarnation called a 'greenie' since those salad days.
Probably have it attached to a modern enduro similar to the Rally class but with specific encouragement and rules such as 'no hour out' and maybe special consideration for the Cross Country and MX special tests - assuming the Rally and Old Farts classes will run after the moderns - those modern bikes can dig some nasty trenches, ruts and braking bumps in a hurry ;) :o.
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In Victoria we are moving towards Club Permit (Historic/Red Plate) registration for old enduro bikes. The Classic Scramble Club (I'm the new secretary) is authorised by Vic Roads to certify motorcycles 25 years old (soon to change to 30 y.o.) for use in club runs. Later this year there will be changes to the scheme to allow 90 days use per year with a log book; ANY 90 days.
Bikes have to have the original lighting equipment working (blinkers optional as I read it), muffler (94 db) horn and mirror. As they are historic the lighting must be period and not the latest styled fittings.
You will then be entitled to ride down the middle of town and on ANY road anywhere with the log book in your posession.
We have planning on the go to run an event around a country town (not Harrow) starting at the Parc Ferme/recreation reserve, ride through town into the DSE bush to a private paddock, do a 'special test', back through the bush, another 'ST', and so on and use the trails once only. Checkpoints, flipcards, scorecards, arrows etc will be like the enduros of old but the event will be non- competitive as the costs rise steeply for permits and licences. If you want to keep note of your 'special test' time for comparison that's your business.
However, your bike will have to be Club Registered; no Rec Rego. You will be covered by the TAC anywhere.
While I realise take up will be slow and this style of event won’t replace the present ones on private land with unregistered bikes; it is the way of the future.
We (the CSC) are having a Club Registration day at Steve Juzva’s place in Castella on Nov 29th. Bring along your bike with working lights, horn, mirror and quiet muffler; join the club ($40), I will give you a letter certifying that your bikes conforms with the requirements and then go to Vic Roads with the paperwork, pay $110 at the counter and collect your red plate. Job done!
The only catch is that you will have to be a current financial member of the CSC ($40 renewal due 30/6 each year) to renew your Club Rego each year and Vic Roads havent decided on renewal fees yet.
When the log book comes in you can go trail riding anytime you like so long as you have filled out the logbook that morning; if not you will be booked for an unregistered vehicle.
How good is this? Get on it.
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will knobby tyres be a problem ( as in not for h/way use)?
will it be recognized interstate or Vic only ?
sounds grouse 8) ;D ;D
im in
cheers
tony
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They probably cant have 'Not for highway use' or NHS 'not for highway service' What Drakie has said sounds exactly like the Historic registration we have in SA. Bikes have to be 30 years or older, 90 uses a year and you have to carry the log book with you and fill it out BEFORE you go on a ride stating your destination or a general area your going riding, and the bikes have to mostly be original, period/look correct and the historic rego officer in the paricular club has to approve the bike first. There is also and ephasis on correct colour scheme and exhaust systems but im not sure if that is going to be a requirement in VIC. In SA the whole system is open to interpration though because there isnt really any specific rules for bikes, theres only the rules that have been written for the cars but thats what we have to use to apply it to the bikes. Its basically set up to prevent the hot rodders getting on Historic rego.
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can any offroad bike compete in closed Vinduro events? As I read it, as long as it has a headlight and a tail light, horn and 1 mirror. Is this correct?
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Oldbiker
The events we have been running in NSW are as follows
Trail bikes
Trials bikes
Enduro bikes
All of the above should have a headlight and it does not require to be functional.
MX bikes are welcome. ( Headlight required and it does not require to be functional)
Generally our cut-off date for eligible bikes is 1985.(Bikes manufactured in or before 1985)
We elect to run Non competitive events as the the permits , resources and logistics associated with a full on vinduro are much greater than social/ non competitive events. We only have a small team of dedicated people to put our events and its already quite time consuming
We place great emphasis on a fun and social environment.
We have a preference for bikes with suitable quite mufflers , properly packed MX mufflers are OK.
So far our events have been alot of fun for the riders and organisers.
Shoey
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From a rider's perspective, I'd love to see a few competitive vinduros. It adds something to the challenge and I personally like to believe that it wouldn't ruin the fun, relaxed atmosphere of this style of event. It's up to the individual if he/she puts pressure on himself/herself to perform.
It's completely pshycological, but I find it easier to justify a 12 hour road trip for a real race rather than a social trail ride. ;)
However............. I also acknowledge that it would increase the workload and the cost to all the great blokes and girls that organise these events for us to enjoy. (Good to see Drakie did find a little bit of time for a quick ride at Harrow though. ;D )
I also understand that turning vinduros competitive will make entry fees more expensive and for those that don't want to compete, that might not be accepted well.
So, in all that dribble, I've managed to sit firmly on the fence on what is best for the sport.
But for me, another chance to prove that I'm still a crap rider would be welcomed with open arms. :D :D
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thats great! My TY250a will be 'Vindurised' then!
Is there a calendar on the net? how often do you ride? and Where?
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The second NSW Vinduro / Poker Run will be week-end of the 23rd and 24th of October 2010.
Entry forms will be available soon on The Manly Warringah Motor Cycle Inc. website.
Rockley will be the venue.
As previously advised the loop was already very good and it had been vastly improved , as of last week-end we have planned a very interesting 4.0 Km extension taking the loop out to approx. 14.0 kM
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When vinduros first appeared I was keen to see them become competitive. However I've changed my mind, as I think it would take something away, while increasing the cost.
Are you going to stop and spend 10 minutes helping another rider if you are racing? We are all gentlemen, but some people definitely take racing more seriously than others, just take a look at some other threads here. Running the non-competitive guys with the racers sounds dubious too. Already, one rider at Three Bridges had some young dickhead yelling at him to get out of the way...
The entry fees will increase, and by my understanding bikes will have to be scrutineered too.
As it stands with Victorian vinduros, there's a real "spirit" and sense of fun, and they are deliriously "hassle-free". There's a certain amount of unofficial competition already, with mates trying to beat each other and stuff like that. Having all the trappings of a real enduro, like special tests, timecards and the like really adds to the vibe too. And I like the fact that each club runs each event a little differently - keeps it interesting. My vote would be to keep the vinduro format exactly as is, but I'll go along with whatever the organisers decide.
this style of event won’t replace the present ones on private land with unregistered bikes
Phew! Sorry, but I've got no interest at all in registering my vinduro bike at this stage.
Tex
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OK, here's the VicRoads rules.
A club permit can be issued to the following vehicles in the following categories:
Classic & Historic vehicles manufactured after 31 December 1930, but more than 25 years before the date of the application for a club permit.
A club permit allows vehicles to be used:
• in connection with official activities organised by an association approved by VicRoads, such as car rallies, or in the preparation of the vehicle for such activities
• Club Permits are issued for 12 month periods and vehicles are issued with a specific club permit number plate.
• Applying for a club permit
To apply for a Club permit you will need to complete a Club Permit Registration form together with:
• in the case of a club historic vehicle that is not a street rod, a current certificate of roadworthiness or a letter from a scrutineer authorised by the club, stating that the vehicle is safe for use on the road
• Club Permit fee - refer to Permits (Club, Rally and Unregistered Vehicle Permits)
I am the Secretary of the Classic Scramble Club and am empowered to scrutinise all bikes of club members wanting Club Permit Registration (a.k.a. CPR, Red Pate Rego, Historic Rego).
If you live interstate you can still be a member of our club (we presently have SA and Qld members) and apply for CPR.
The CPR entitles you to use your bike in CSC events, even as an invited club to interclub Vinduro events anywhere.
Your bike must be 'roadworthy' to use the roads (definition: operating headlight, tailight, brakelight, brakes, mirror, horn (bulb is OK), QUIET muffler. If your bikes came standard with knobby tyres I would argue that as they were registerable in their day with them, as an historic vehicle they are period correct.
VicRoads is presently tightening their Rereation Rego rules to have the licence plate mounted at a 45 degree angle underneath the taillight and I expect our historic bikes will be the same. Period lighting is a must.
Presently, if your bike is pre 1985 you can get it registered but the VicRoads proposal is to go the SA way and make it 30 y.o. by the end of this year although no official confirmation has come through yet from VicRoads. This means your bike will then have to be a 1979 model or earlier.
GET IT REGO’D THIS YEAR. (CSC CPR sign up day Nov 28, 9pm before the days ride, Steve Juzva’s place, 60 Campbells Creek Rd, Castella, Victoria)
Pay $40 CSC membership, collect your letter, go to VicRoads, fill out the form, present your letter, CSC card, give them $110 and get your CPR plate. Easy.
Victorian Vinduros for 2010 are: Ruffy Sunday week and Benalla Sept 26 and Juz’ above on Nov 28.
Having this CPR is fantastic as it opens so many event possibilities. When it goes to a 90 day logbook I’m going trailriding too! (Although I ‘test’ a bit now in the bush at Blackwood)
Personally, I’m resistant to competitive events as we cater for everyone’s pace now and those that want to race their mates (and push me into crashing my brains out at Harrow) can do so providing their results on any timed sections are kept to themselves.
Cheers,
D.
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$150 sounds like cheap TAC insurance to me Drakie. I do have a question though. For arguments sake, if I were to "Enduro-ise" an MXer and had the criteria of lights, horn etc, is that eligible for the club reg or is it that the bike must have been registerable in the first place?
Apart from all the associated permit costs and organising a timed competitive vinduro, I haven't read any mention of the need for a good spares supply for a race bike, as opposed to a ride bike. That alone is good enough reason to leave Vinduro at a social ride level as parts for most of our bikes are getting hard to come by....and ridiculously expensive.
I dont see any reason why a few mates couldnt line up at a special test and have turns timing each other though....thats being social. So is remembering to bring the stop watch!
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I agree, especially when rec rego gets you TAC cover for $67 a year.
Dale.
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The issue of available spare parts and bikes that may be required for competition maintenance is one of the factors I was interested in hearing about. It is amazing when you go from social riding to competition how the price of backup parts seem to triple. Would it be any different to what it associated with running a VMX bike though? Has the VMX competition become much harder over the last few years due to this factor? Fairly new to the VMX/Vinduro scene and keen to get involved in some of the riding events.
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I agree with Tex & Dale the more relaxed it can be left the better .
The Stig.
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Noel , Ive told some guys that you might be running a vinduro next year and the interest is there.
All are hanging out for a fairdinkum old time enduro , no bells or whistles.
Keep us posted.
mike
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Mike
It sure is on my to do list. I know a lot of guys are keen.
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Some of us don,t mind working too Noel.
Just ask.
:)
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The issue of available spare parts and bikes that may be required for competition maintenance is one of the factors I was interested in hearing about. It is amazing when you go from social riding to competition how the price of backup parts seem to triple. Would it be any different to what it associated with running a VMX bike though? Has the VMX competition become much harder over the last few years due to this factor? Fairly new to the VMX/Vinduro scene and keen to get involved in some of the riding events.
I dont think thats a very valid argument against it. Your basically saying that if its competitve you are all of a sudden going to start busting your gut 'racing' against the clock and falling off and breaking or wearing out your bike????? Even if there is a competitive vinduro, no one says you have to 'race' so hard that you will break or wear out your bike, you can still ride at your own pace as you would in a 'non competitive' vinduro that you think will not wear out or break your bike anyway. If there is a competitive class, it allows the guys to want to have a bit of a go and 'push themselves' a bit harder to feel like reliving the old competitve days and who are not worried about the supposed added cost of broken or worn parts. I also think if these actually do happen, that they will still have a class or category were you can just 'trail ride it' at your own pace like the current vinduros and not be 'timed' and feel like you have to go hard. It is as competitive as you want to make it and as 'bike wearing' as you want to make it. You are controlling the throttle, no one else ;D Just ride it at your own pace that you think will not break or wear out your bike more than a 'non competitve' vinduro.
The VMX guys get to re-live their past and race competitvely so why cant the vinduro guys have the option to have a bit of a 'race' too?
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The last vinduro I rode was a couple of years ago and my mind set for the day was sought of a competitive nature in that I was going to just ride as much as I possibly could for the entire alotted time. I didn't kick anyone off, swear at anyone or behave badly, just rode around those a bit slower or anyone stuck on a hill, didn't stop to help (not that anyone needed help), talk or wank, only to re-fuel and have a drink. I even had to replace an errant swing arm nut which had become conspicuous by it's absence! The end result was I had an absolute ball and took out the "prize" for most laps ridden for the day, and I'm just a fat, old bald prick! I must say I really enjoyed the the track though, technical enough without being outrageous, but rideable for almost anyone. The bike, 1980 Husqvarna WR390 was also a gem, so maybe the planets just aligned for me on that day. That's how a non competitive vinduro became my own little personal competition. I would probably enter a competitve vinduro though, I reckon it would be a bit more of a fun challenge.
Cheers,
K
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Yup - keep us posted!!! The hard part will be deciding which class to enter!!! ::)
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There's no reason a Vinduro can't have riders running with and without timekeeping...
Have a marked bypass around the checkpoints (like the easy/hard markers we already use) and if the rider is running the timekeeping Vinduro, he goes through the checkpoint, if he's running the trailride side he doesn't.
It's still just a vintage Enduro bike trailride (non-competitive) either way, it's just that some riders are keeping to the timekeeping and some aren't... :-)
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Some of the guys went to the Masters and discovered that it,s possible to be old AND fast.
Those games may have a lot to answer for. The fires have been rekindled.
Even one proper vinduro- enduro a year in SE QLD might calm the guys down.
I,me talking Yamaha 6 Day type of racing. We had first timers racing some of the fastest riders you have ever seen and never had a problem , in fact it was a hoot and a lot of people look back on those days with very fond memories.
When I started out I wasn,t racing Stephen Grant [ expert] I was racing IT400c. All I had to do was beat him. Some times I did and some times I didn,t. What a laugh , ah the memories.
Could even let moderns race [ to make up the numbers ]. The moderns could pay for the old guys fun.
Not so hard to add extra classes. The enduro,s now have classes all over the place.
I believe a yearly race could become an event like the CD,s.
:) :) :)
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For any one that is interested a 2 day enduro is being organized at Portland NSW where the 4 day was held this year in Feb 2011 which will have a Vintage class we need at least 10 for the class we have 6 at the moment it will be run by oyster bay mcc it will be a proper enduro
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odd1
Do they have a web site?
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http://www.obmcc.com/
I'd be a "maybe" for the 2-day on an old bike - I'm super keen to do the event, just not sure whether I'd be better off doing it on my modern (4-day practice and all that).
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Take the old bike the last race was won by an 84 IT 250 and that raced against the moderns I raced my maico 400 against the moderns in the MX the next day and was getting top 10 finishes and we had full grids I'm sure the $15000.00 Husaberg owners weren't to happy. Whats the worse that can happen? you dont finish then you will know what you have to do to make your bike reliable.
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Yup - keep us posted!!! The hard part will be deciding which class to enter!!! ::)
125,s ? :) :) :)
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Yup - keep us posted!!! The hard part will be deciding which class to enter!!! ::)
125,s ? :) :) :)
hahahahahaha - The same thought was crossing my mind... ;D ;D Unfortunately, that means I may have to find a way to convince the missus that I need another new (old) bike....
Been thinking about getting a YZ125 J or K and recreating my enduro bikes of 82/83, or trying to find a YZ125H and doing a copy of Geoff Petler's 81 bike... ::)
Any idea roughly when the Vinduro would be? So I have some idea how long I have to find a YZ125 and get it rebuilt?
And yes Mike - a couple of Old Farts reliving their early 80's racing days sounds like a damn fine idea!!!! ;D ;) ;D ::) :o
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Yup - keep us posted!!! The hard part will be deciding which class to enter!!! ::)
125,s ? :) :) :)
hahahahahaha - The same thought was crossing my mind... ;D ;D Unfortunately, that means I may have to find a way to convince the missus that I need another new (old) bike....
Been thinking about getting a YZ125 J or K and recreating my enduro bikes of 82/83, or trying to find a YZ125H and doing a copy of Geoff Petler's 81 bike... ::)
Any idea roughly when the Vinduro would be? So I have some idea how long I have to find a YZ125 and get it rebuilt?
And yes Mike - a couple of Old Farts reliving their early 80's racing days sounds like a damn fine idea!!!! ;D ;) ;D ::) :o
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) A 125 mite kill ya Tony, gotta hurt at the least.
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For any one that is interested a 2 day enduro is being organized at Portland NSW where the 4 day was held this year in Feb 2011 which will have a Vintage class we need at least 10 for the class we have 6 at the moment it will be run by oyster bay mcc it will be a proper enduro
Interested! sounds great, but ...... are we talking registered pre 85 bikes only for the vintage class? I don't think I can get the XC registered, but the 87 model WR400, that would be nice!!! Could run in the modern class I suppose, but It would be nice to hang out with people my own age.
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We can make the rules you will need NSW conditional off road rego working lights stop light I think a mirror but can be total loss system I dont think 1985 is set in stone as long as the bike looks vintage that will probable do
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We can make the rules you will need NSW conditional off road rego
I'm curious to know what NSW conditional off road rego will allow pre 85 bikes from NSW to be ridden on public land? There is Historic rego which does not allow for any modifications (so modified MX'ers are out) but would suit bikes that have been previously registered. Then there is Ag rego which will only allow bikes that have never been compliance but they can be only used "for farming purposes". All Terrain Vehicles, that can only be used by farmers, forestry, NPWS, surf clubs, Rural land protection boards and Councils to spray weeds.
Other than these conditional rego's I cannot find one that would allow for any Enduro bikes to be ridden on public land by riders from NSW without full registration.
Any info could help in working towards establishing a conditional off road rego scheme for motorcycle riders in NSW
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Its an Unregistered Vehicle Permit, and is only valid for a MA sanctioned event. The give no fark for compliance plates or most of the rest of the full-rego guff, because they recognise that the bike will be doing very little on-road work, the bike will be scrutineered, and you're not using it for commuting to work/getting a loaf of bread from the shops.
Its the same scheme that they use for moving tractors/earth moving equipment etc.
Dunno if you need a RWC for a UVP on a bike? Rally cars don't. If not, then you've got to fill out a declaration of road-worthyness, which asks questions like "Does it have brakes?" (no kidding - tractors and stuff, remember).
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) A 125 mite kill ya Tony, gotta hurt at the least.
May do! ;D But I've kept my eye in on 125's for many years - love them in the bush, love the lack of finess required to ride them. Love climbing hills on 125's - none of this picking a line rubbish, just draw a straight line between the bottom and the top and keep it pinned until you get there... :D ;) ::)
Haven't owned a 125 in maybe 10 years, but I always seemed to go back to one every 2nd or 3rd bike...
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) A 125 mite kill ya Tony, gotta hurt at the least.
May do! ;D But I've kept my eye in on 125's for many years - love them in the bush, love the lack of finess required to ride them. Love climbing hills on 125's - none of this picking a line rubbish, just draw a straight line between the bottom and the top and keep it pinned until you get there... :D ;) ::)
Haven't owned a 125 in maybe 10 years, but I always seemed to go back to one every 2nd or 3rd bike...
Have pity Tony. If you get a 125 then I,ll have to get one too. ;D
So as I,ll have someone I know to race. :)
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Any idea on the entry fees & M/A licence costs for the 2 day event at Portland ?
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For any one that is interested a 2 day enduro is being organized at Portland NSW where the 4 day was held this year in Feb 2011 which will have a Vintage class we need at least 10 for the class we have 6 at the moment it will be run by oyster bay mcc it will be a proper enduro
I sent an email to the OBMCC club asking about the 2 day enduro. Got this response back......
Yes it's a state Enduro and therefore runs to the state Enduro rules and classes. The dates are set for the 26th and 27th March. Not sure on the entry fee yet as this is set by MNSW.
Can give you more information closer to the time.
I cant see vintage classes in the GCRs Enduro section. Any other info out there?
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You can have a 'competitive' class for those who want to race and a 'rally' or clubman' class that is not timed or what ever for those that want to cruise around and not 'compete'. With awards for the most laps completed currently, they are kinda getting close to being competitive anyway.
I hope to see a competitive Vinduro down the track, and if it happens over a 6 hour event or more , I will enter straight away :) I dont even care if I come last, I just want & like the challenge...
Cheers Mick.