Author Topic: You can't fabricate anything!  (Read 16257 times)

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Offline Nathan S

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You can't fabricate anything!
« on: September 30, 2009, 04:58:08 pm »
... at least, not as well as these guys!

http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/

I'm lost for words - its beyond awesome.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline jimg1au

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2009, 05:20:29 pm »
my car ended up at 112000 usd del to australia,with a 427 alloy engine and 5 speed
now were can i get 112000 usd from
cheers

mx250

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2009, 06:09:54 pm »
Wow!!!

"Kirkham Motorsports was founded in 1995 with the mission to build the finest replicas in the world. It all began when brothers, David and Thomas Kirkham, were restoring their own Cobra,CSX3104. At the same time, a relative bought and imported a Polish fighter jet and invited them to see this relic of the Cold War. As the brothers looked at the airplane, they couldn't help but notice the striking similarities between it and CSX3104. They wondered if the people who built the plane could build an exact replica of a Cobra. They found the name of the manufacturer and sent them a fax. The simple note they scribbled read, "Can you guys build an aluminum bodied car?" Within 12 hours, they received the reply, "No problem."

A week later, David was on an airplane to Warsaw with an English-Polish dictionary, a toy model of a Cobra, and a dream. He spent a week scouting the factory and exploring their manufacturing abilities. He saw a silent factory with idle machines. The enormous factory had produced aircraft for over 60 years. During the tour, David knew this was the place he wanted to build cars."


Love this bit They found the name of the manufacturer and sent them a fax. The simple note they scribbled read, "Can you guys build an aluminum bodied car?" Within 12 hours, they received the reply, "No problem." 8) :)





But if ya gonna build replica's why not.......

« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 06:15:45 pm by mx250 »

Offline lukeb1961

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2009, 09:58:30 pm »
I just read The Book on the Ellison car from start to finish.
Absolutely mind-blowing. The workmanship and sheer amount of CAD and milling is almost beyond belief. That car must have cost one HECK of a lot of money...

Do try to find some time to read it. Every page leaves you shaking your head in amazement.

firko

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2009, 10:24:32 pm »
Quote
I just read The Book on the Ellison car from start to finish.
Me too, what a great read!....That's one very cool car. The 427 Cobra has always been my dream car and now this masterpiece has taken the concept to another level. A friends brother is building a fibreglass Cobra kit car using a 302 Windsor with Webers, Jag front and rear suspension and all the period stuff. It's turning out really nicely but the Kirkham Cobra makes it look like a beige Sigma in comparison. I sent him the link.

I love the D Type Jag and 40 Ford convertible too.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 10:28:52 pm by firko »

Offline vmx42

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 11:00:10 am »
I love 'trick' stuff as much as the next guy, but that thing is just a rich mans folly [not that there is anything wrong with that]. It has more in common with the Howard Hughes Spruce Goose than cutting edge [and appropriate] automotive engineering.

As an exercise in showing what you can do with CNC tooling and way too much time and money it is a raging success but it doesn't have one iota of soul.

As an advertisment to show what can be done it works well, but otherwise it makes Dutch Twin-shockers look very 'era sensitive'.

I read the whole thing and enjoyed it but the lasting image of that Holley carb with the $40.00 airfilter proudly sitting up ready to suck all the hot air from the engine bay did make me smirk.

I would like to be there when Ellison pulls up at a road side cafe next to some real hot-rodders in that thing - he will fit right in… Gotta love the Nouveau Riche.
VMX42
When a woman says "What?", it's not because she didn't hear you, she's giving you the chance to chance to change what you said.

Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life down here…

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firko

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 11:52:34 am »
The skies are going to open up and I'll be sucked into a black hole vortex for this but........I agree with Jeff. I don't deny everything I wrote in my previous email about the coolness of the Ellison Cobra but Jeffs 'lack of soul' observation got me thinking. I'm one of those petrol head tragics who see personality (or soul to you believers) in otherwise inanimate vehicles. More often than not a built up vehicle whether it be bike, car, boat or skateboard will reflect a lot of the builders personality. The Ellison Cobra is, to my way of thinking too perfect, too precise in it's execution. It's a shrine to billet CNC and the owners ability to spend money. To me the hot rod spirit that inspired Carrol Shelbys original Cobra by sticking a red hot 289 into a British AC that previously housed a breathless Bristol engine is the very essesence of being a car guy. That's why those TV hot rod shows where Boyd Coddington, Chip Foose et al throw shelves full of warehouse bought new parts at some old rust bucket leave me cold. The ingenuity that emerges from building to a strict budget is what turns me on. Buying a ready made chassis and bolting on more ready made bling accessories (al la West Coast Choppers) creates a perfect end result that sadly lacks any of the builders personality. My mates brothers Cobra kit car with it's little cast iron 289 and period wrecking yard procured parts such as a Jag rear end and Mitsubishi L300 front suspension is more to my liking.

One thing I tend to disagree with Jeff on is his tongue in cheek observation of how Ellisons Cobra will be recieved by Hot Rodders at the Drive In restaurant. I think that they'd go apeshit over it. Despite the Cobras mega dollar lack of soul, it's still a very cool and beautifully executed piece of engineering that any guy who's ever handled a Sidchrome couldn't help to appreciate.

Offline lukeb1961

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 12:59:43 pm »
I think it has enormous soul! It is truly beautiful.

It meets the old Henry Royce target of "Strive for perfection in everything you do. Take the best that exists and make it better. When it does not exist, design it." (and the early Rolls Royce were absolutely nothing BUT the toy of the insanely rich, as the chassis alone was in the million-dollar range).

Intense effort, intelligence and artistry went into the Ellison Cobra. 
Underlying any doubts about it are just our personal twinges of jealousy, that none of us will ever own the thing.

Appreciate it. Wonder at it. Now look at what you drive   :-[

Offline cyclegod

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 01:44:18 pm »
Appreciate it. Wonder at it. Now look at what you drive   :-[

A beige 1984 Holden shuttle van...... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Ban BLACK rims NOW

firko

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2009, 02:20:38 pm »
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Appreciate it. Wonder at it. Now look at what you drive   
I've done all of those things and I'm pleased that I drive a rare and exotic classic that is as reliable as a beige Kingswood, can be parked anywhere, is drop dead gorgeous (to my eyes) turns heads wherever I take her and most importantly cost a miniscule percentage of what the Ellison Cobra cost. I love it.

Offline vmx42

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 04:18:01 pm »
HI Luke,
Yes, in one way it is perfect, but it is also so flawed in others as to be almost funny. The concept of a CNC machined chassis is laughable, there is not one single benefit in doing it that way [except for showing that it could be done].

If you want to compare materials directly, then a simple aluminium honeycomb monocoque chassis using 70's technology would have been vastly superior. It would be significantly lighter, vastly cheaper and the resultant structure would be much more rigid and not require the intense effort that you describe.

The Rolls Royce philosophy that you speak of deals with the benefits of simple pure design, using appropriate materials [and in appropriate ways and places]. A simple aluminium tube, gram for gram is stronger and more rigid than any piece of CNC machined solid [that spans the same distance] and old tech laminate structures blow the tube out of the water.

What they have done is to take a flawed concept and made it work with an inordinate amount of detail. But it is detail that is required because the design and construction method are not appropriate for the purpose - please don't confuse over-engineering with great design - they are not the same thing. Good design seeks to simplify and remove any extraneous material, over engineering simply tries to mask the previous error with more complexity [and the subsequent snowball effect that follows]. I would love to see it put on a chassis jig and have its torsional stiffness rated - I don't think it would rate very highly. And lets not talk about comparative costs of construction.

The body work is beautiful and full of the sole of the workers who formed it, but the chassis is a maze of over detailed substructures, each trying to mask the mistakes of each other.

An example of the type of thinking I am trying to describe is probably well illustrated one simple process that took place during the Cold War Space Race between the US an the USSR. Both countries knew that their astronauts needed a reliable tool to write with in space [for navigation calculations etc]. The US spend untold millions of dollars trying to invent a pen that would write zero gravity, they put teams of their best engineers on the task and spend years trying to perfect it. The Russians simply gave their Cosmonauts pencils.

That is a good design solution vs over engineering. The US spent a fortune trying to make a flawed concept work without looking for a simple solution to the problem. You can't always throw money at a problem and expect a superior result. Mostly the extra money just means extra complications and management issues, but it is the way in the US where bigger is always better.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Cobra [especially the body work], but I think they got caught up in the process of construction and the end result whilst beautiful in its complexity shouldn't be confused with a considered, elegant [and potentially timeless] design solution to the problem. It will make a beautiful museum piece in the future, but it won't change the way cars are constructed [except for the mega rich wanna-bees].

VMX 42

P.S. don't worry Firko, it probably won't happen again…
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 04:27:27 pm by vmx42 »
When a woman says "What?", it's not because she didn't hear you, she's giving you the chance to chance to change what you said.

Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life down here…

"everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts"

firko

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 04:37:51 pm »
Quote
P.S. don't worry Firko, it probably won't happen again…
It did. :o
Jeff, you articulated so very well the point I had intended to make before I got carried away with the spiritual side of car construction. Methinks too many people confuse over engineering with good engineering. The original tubular steel space frame used by Carrol Shelby is a masterpiece of simple engineering used to good effect. The billet car is a good example of over engineering for the sake of showing off. I still think the workmanship is magnificent and agree (!!) with Jeff that the bodybuilders are indeed masters of the English wheel. It's just that I find this car to be a mechanical "War and Peace" when a 4 page brochure would have done the same job. ;D

Despite the overkill, I'd still park it under my carport without hesitation.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 04:39:59 pm by firko »

Offline vmx42

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 05:18:47 pm »
After venting my spleen, I went back and took another look at the book and I now think I was a bit over the top. The chassis looks great, but it is really overworked. But the pages on the bodywork are simply fantastic.

Don't get me wrong, I would have it in the shed, but if I had an open choice of all the desirable vehicles in the world, then it would be pretty far down the list. That doesn't diminish the effort that went into it, or the craftsmanship of the guys that toiled over it, I just think it is over done. But that body work is just a masterpiece.

It is obvious to all who take the time to look at the book that this thing would cost a truely serious amount of coin. But in rereading it the casual way they mentioned having to buy a much bigger CNC mill because the chassis rails [they only made 4 of them] wouldn't fit in their existing machine shows that it must have cost pure megabucks. I wonder if they would do a foreign order of a couple of alloy tanks for some of my restos - if they added it to Ellisons bill surely he wouldn't notice?

Am I jealous, actually no. Do I appreciate it, yes, you would have to be mad not too, but I think my Spruce Goose analogy is pretty accurate.

But then again, I can't wait to see what they do next…
VMX42

P.S. Sorry Firko, but I think you inadvertently agreed with me again. This has to stop… or people will talk!!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 05:20:44 pm by vmx42 »
When a woman says "What?", it's not because she didn't hear you, she's giving you the chance to chance to change what you said.

Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life down here…

"everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts"

Offline GMC

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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 06:10:46 pm »
Impressive work but I'm not sure a billet chassis would be the way to go either as I can't imagine it would have the right amount of flex.
I was trying to have this same conversation with "Hughsy" a while back but he just ignored me, staring into space like a stuffed dummy or something.



Mind you I wouldn't mind a few cashed up customers like that.
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Re: You can't fabricate anything!
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 06:22:55 pm »
One of the guys at the Benz club once said something along the lines of "An automobile has to have soul. Otherwise it's just a f#*king car!"

Call it 'soul', 'style', 'character' or whatever you like. Some cars have a certain something that you can't put your finger on.

Not sure this sort of stuff falls has that.   :-\


Just bought another car yesterday that has "soul". It looks like a heap of shit, but it really makes me smile to drive it.   ;)