You can't fabricate anything!

[David Kirkham]

... at least, not as well as these guys!

http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/

I'm lost for words - its beyond awesome.

Hello! 

Luke was kind enough to forward me this link.  Thanks for all the kind words that have been posted.  I am happy to answer any questions you all might have. 

Thanks!

David

[David Kirkham]

I just read The Book on the Ellison car from start to finish.
Absolutely mind-blowing. The workmanship and sheer amount of CAD and milling is almost beyond belief. That car must have cost one HECK of a lot of money...

Do try to find some time to read it. Every page leaves you shaking your head in amazement.

Thanks for the kind words!

There was certainly a lot of work that went into the car.  I am glad you liked it!

David


David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports

[David Kirkham]

I love 'trick' stuff as much as the next guy, but that thing is just a rich mans folly [not that there is anything wrong with that]. It has more in common with the Howard Hughes Spruce Goose than cutting edge [and appropriate] automotive engineering.

As an exercise in showing what you can do with CNC tooling and way too much time and money it is a raging success but it doesn't have one iota of soul.

As an advertisment to show what can be done it works well, but otherwise it makes Dutch Twin-shockers look very 'era sensitive'.

I read the whole thing and enjoyed it but the lasting image of that Holley carb with the $40.00 airfilter proudly sitting up ready to suck all the hot air from the engine bay did make me smirk.

I would like to be there when Ellison pulls up at a road side cafe next to some real hot-rodders in that thing - he will fit right in… Gotta love the Nouveau Riche.
VMX42

Thanks for the comments!  I do apprecitate them.  Not everyone will have the same ideas of what is beautiful and what is worthwhile.  I am cool with that.  Different ideas are what makes the world go around.  After having driven the car I am convinced it has soul.

The air cleaner is a K&N unit.  The engine was moved back 6 inches from the original position of the motor so there was no room to put on a fuel injection system--the rear intakes would have had to suck air from under the windshield cowl.

David


David Kirkham, President KMS

[David Kirkham]

The Ellison Cobra is, to my way of thinking too perfect, too precise in it's execution. It's a shrine to billet CNC and the owners ability to spend money. To me the hot rod spirit that inspired Carrol Shelbys original Cobra by sticking a red hot 289 into a British AC that previously housed a breathless Bristol engine is the very essesence of being a car guy.

Thanks for the kind words.  I don't think the skies are going to open up and suck anyone in.  I do appreciate your comments. 

I think there is quite a bit of Kirkham Motorsports' personality in the build of the car.  We have been making billet suspension parts for years and years.  To me, the Hot Rod spirit is to have a dream and make something of it with whatever tools you have at hand.

David

David Kirkham, President
KMS 

[David Kirkham]

I think it has enormous soul! It is truly beautiful.

It meets the old Henry Royce target of "Strive for perfection in everything you do. Take the best that exists and make it better. When it does not exist, design it." (and the early Rolls Royce were absolutely nothing BUT the toy of the insanely rich, as the chassis alone was in the million-dollar range).

Intense effort, intelligence and artistry went into the Ellison Cobra. 
Underlying any doubts about it are just our personal twinges of jealousy, that none of us will ever own the thing.

Appreciate it. Wonder at it. Now look at what you drive   

Thanks for the kind words!  I do appreciate them!

David


David Kirkham, President
KMS

[VMX247]

Hello David,
I believe we should be thanking you for dropping in with your replies. 
Thank you for your time and congratulations on building dreams. 
cheers

[David Kirkham]

HI Luke,
Yes, in one way it is perfect, but it is also so flawed in others as to be almost funny. The concept of a CNC machined chassis is laughable, there is not one single benefit in doing it that way [except for showing that it could be done].

If you want to compare materials directly, then a simple aluminium honeycomb monocoque chassis using 70's technology would have been vastly superior. It would be significantly lighter, vastly cheaper and the resultant structure would be much more rigid and not require the intense effort that you describe.

The Rolls Royce philosophy that you speak of deals with the benefits of simple pure design, using appropriate materials [and in appropriate ways and places]. A simple aluminium tube, gram for gram is stronger and more rigid than any piece of CNC machined solid [that spans the same distance] and old tech laminate structures blow the tube out of the water.

What they have done is to take a flawed concept and made it work with an inordinate amount of detail. But it is detail that is required because the design and construction method are not appropriate for the purpose - please don't confuse over-engineering with great design - they are not the same thing. Good design seeks to simplify and remove any extraneous material, over engineering simply tries to mask the previous error with more complexity [and the subsequent snowball effect that follows]. I would love to see it put on a chassis jig and have its torsional stiffness rated - I don't think it would rate very highly. And lets not talk about comparative costs of construction.

The body work is beautiful and full of the sole of the workers who formed it, but the chassis is a maze of over detailed substructures, each trying to mask the mistakes of each other.

An example of the type of thinking I am trying to describe is probably well illustrated one simple process that took place during the Cold War Space Race between the US an the USSR. Both countries knew that their astronauts needed a reliable tool to write with in space [for navigation calculations etc]. The US spend untold millions of dollars trying to invent a pen that would write zero gravity, they put teams of their best engineers on the task and spend years trying to perfect it. The Russians simply gave their Cosmonauts pencils.

That is a good design solution vs over engineering. The US spent a fortune trying to make a flawed concept work without looking for a simple solution to the problem. You can't always throw money at a problem and expect a superior result. Mostly the extra money just means extra complications and management issues, but it is the way in the US where bigger is always better.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Cobra [especially the body work], but I think they got caught up in the process of construction and the end result whilst beautiful in its complexity shouldn't be confused with a considered, elegant [and potentially timeless] design solution to the problem. It will make a beautiful museum piece in the future, but it won't change the way cars are constructed [except for the mega rich wanna-bees].

VMX 42

P.S. don't worry Firko, it probably won't happen again…

Thanks for the post.  Perhaps I need to explain something here that might have been missed.

The "best" material to make a car out of is carbon fiber.  (Of course, that depends on your definition of "best").  Assuming our definition here of "best" is high performance, then carbon fiber it the choice--hands down, no questions asked.  We know this because F1 chassis are made form carbon fiber.  Larry Ellison sails in the America's Cup.  That is sailing's F1 equivalent.  Vast sums of money are spent on the America's Cup race.  Larry owns one of the most advanced carbon fiber houses in the world.  His boat hulls, masts, and other parts are made from carbon fiber.  He could have easily made the chassis from carbon fiber--but Larry didn't want a car made from carbon fiber.  He wanted a car made from "billet" aluminum.  (We can have a discussion on what "billet" means, but in this context it means a block of aluminum--I am not using the metallurgical definition.)

No one has ever made a billet chassis before.  Undoubtedly for some of the reasons that have been stated.  Larry could have made the car from anything he wanted.  He chose aluminum.  That is where the real engineering and design challenges came into being.

David


David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports

[David Kirkham]

I think that the billet chassis is probably a pretty good (albeit horrifically expensive) way to build a decent handling car under a Cobra body.

I do appreciate the statements about a proper monocoque or a space-frame, but both would be badly compromised in an open-top car with opening doors. I suspect that the billet chassis is probably better than either, in this circumstance.

I'm not so sure about the 'soul' thing either. The pursuit of technical excellence requires a dedication and a passion that very, very few of us can muster. CAD and Solidworks make things easier, but they also raise the bar, and demand a lot more from the operator. The countless hours spent modeling the suspension alone, should not be devalued by the high quality of the finished product.
On an even more basic level, to actually finish the car to such a high standard shows a rare and uncommon patience - one that needs passion to sustain it.

Regardless, the constructors clearly wished to display their technical expertise, and they've clearly had a win on that one.

Thanks for the kind words. 

You are so right.  It takes a tremendous amount of passion and dedication to see a dream through to the end--especially in the face of those who don't think something can be done. 

David


David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports

[Tahitian_Red]

David,

When can we expect to see the first Billet '73 Honda Elsinore 250 or '81 Maico 490?

[Lozza]

Can you make me a Ford Escort MkII? You might have to dumb it down a bit for my budget

Thanks for taking the time to set the story straight

[David Kirkham]

Jeff, for you a classic URBAN MYTH . If it were an OSSA GP Phantom would it have drawn the same comments?
Unless you have a black belt in Solidworks/MasterCam I wouldn't pass judgement on the billet chassis . Programes like SolidWorks are P
part of the reason modern compnents are just so good these days. CNC work like that is cheap as these days(just email files to China) it looked like it was mostly simple 2D stuff which can even be done on a CNC router that makes kitchen cupboards.Compared to a space frame which would have to have 1 or more jigs made, tubes CNC 'fish-mouthed' and /or bent then finaly welded the billet option is looking better and better.
On the question if it's got soul, essence or such I reckon that would rapidly disappear once you nailed the throttle.

There is a lot more truth to what you said than you may realize.

The throttle pedal has a lot of soul.

David


David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports

[David Kirkham]

David,

When can we expect to see the first Billet '73 Honda Elsinore 250 or '81 Maico 490?

We are always looking into new parts for all makes.  As for another billet car...that might be a long time in coming!

David


David Kirkham, President
KMS

[vmx42]

Hi David,
Thanks for your generous responses. Sometimes things get a bit spirited around here and occasionally views might get expressed more strongly than appropriate - but 99 times out 100 it is with the best intentions.

It seemed your Cobra polarised opinions at many levels, but it also gathered almost universal praise for the standard of workmanship and the obvious passion that went into its conception and construction.

I think your sheet metal workers in both Poland and the US deserve a few extra 'cold ones' as [IMHO] their contribution was truely outstanding.

Keep up the good work and I hope your next 'concept stretching' exercise is as exciting as this one. I don't know where you go from here but keep us posted… you never know what we will say, but you can be sure we will enjoy seeing it.

Thanks again,
VMX42

…and David if you are making Lozza a MkII, then making an extra one for me would be simple wouldn't it, you could even add it to Larrys bill as I am sure he wouldn't even notice        

[crash n bern]

Can you make me a Ford Escort MkII? You might have to dumb it down a bit for my budget

Thanks for taking the time to set the story straight

Thanks for that, I just sprayed coffee all over my keyboard and near choked to death with laughter.

That factory in Poland might be just the ticket for churning out replica alloy tanks though.

[Lozza]

  
I was serious........................well sort of