Author Topic: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils  (Read 69145 times)

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Offline Maicojames

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #105 on: July 26, 2009, 02:44:03 pm »
Yes, VP is high $$ for sure. Sadly, at least here in the Us we have had oxygenated fuel for several years. Latley, we have ethanol blends-I think in reality up to 15% at times.  I realize the octane ratings are different, but in some parts of Australia do you have ethanol?
Hope to hell I didn't kill the thread-I want more tech info.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:58:28 am by Maicojames »
Life is suddenly very Monaro

090

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #106 on: July 26, 2009, 06:24:17 pm »
Yeah James we can choose an ethanol blend. To be honest i am shit scared of it and wont put it in my car.BTW,  what sort of car is in your avatar?
Its a bit too small to make out but looks alot like a monaro which i doubt .
Keep the tech coming!

Offline Lozza

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #107 on: July 26, 2009, 11:09:17 pm »
Without giving to much away ethanol is the new black ;)
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline Maicojames

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #108 on: July 27, 2009, 02:07:03 am »
Here in the US the gays are the new blacks LOL. We have no choice at the pump-it has ethanol most of the year-maybe all year now. We have to buy VP or another specialty race fuel-crap most are oxygenated -which IMO is not preferrable. Hence my ? for C12. I think VP offers other fuels-Want an octane of about 100 ( RON-US method)-leaded or unleaded, but non oxygenated-ad a higher specific gravity than say .720 or so ( better mixing with castor and castor blends). I should look it up.
I found the Silkolene KR2 has the SAE viscosity of 30 ( aka 30 weight). I wonder if this is too heavy to mix at 20:1 or 25:1?

Brad- Yes it IS a Monaro GTS 350 (70-71)-though I prefer the first year(1968) as it is cooler IMO. Though any V-8 Torana is pretty mean as well IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oObB6DehViE

-see " life is suddenly Monaro"  Just thought it was a very cool car. 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 06:03:27 am by Maicojames »
Life is suddenly very Monaro

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #109 on: July 27, 2009, 08:52:50 am »
Getting back on topic.

I purchased some TTS on Saturday and mixed it with a spoon with BP ultima at 25:1.
This mix with Motul 800 would have oil pouring out of my bikes exhaust pipes.

I took a Honda CR85 and a KTM SX125 to Echo Valley on Sunday and ran the bikes as hard as we could in the slippery conditions. We were certainly up in the rev range toward the end of the day as the track dried.

The attached image shows how little oil was ejected as a fluid. I think the oil we can see in the image was in a vapour form but condensed on the rim of the out let. The bikes started first kick all day long. Did they have more horse power, unfortunately I have never run Ultima in the KTM before so I can not say. It certainly took 4 lappes before I was use to the power and could get my body position right. I guess I can say that my KTM 125 on the above mentioned mix was quicker than my Maico 250 on V Power and 747 at 40:1.

So if we use a SAE 10-20w oil we can mix it to 25:1 without fear of it fouling everything including our sheds.
Shortshift and others who have been using this system for years were right it does work fine.

Ji



Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2009, 11:24:59 am »
Here is an image of the Honda CR85's pipe.
Some oil but not pouring out.

When we picked this bike up from Springwood Honda new we were told to run it on Motul 800 40:1 by the head mechanic which we did until Sunday.

Ji



Offline Stevo17

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2009, 03:20:32 pm »
Hi guys,  I am interested in following this thread... I am no expert but I have been using Motul 800 at 40:1 in my bikes for a while and have always found them to be blowing out black oily shyte.  I recently switched to Bel Ray H1R at 40:1 and found that they did not blow any smoke or oil from the pipe... a recent engine rebuild showed a lot of unburned motul laying around in the bottom of the cases

I bought my H1R at MCA on Parramatta Rd....  seems like good stuff

Offline Lozza

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2009, 05:23:42 pm »
Oil running out your exhaust is a sign of incomplete combustion it is NOT a sign of 'too much oil', jetting, squish and ignition timing get enough heat into combustion to burn the oil. The oil fallen out of suspension and lying in the crank case is actually protecting your engine not harming it.
I unfortunately don't have a pic but a Rotax kart pipe that after 3 seasons regular running had slight SURFACE RUST inside the pipe. Not one drop of oil ever came out the atmospheric end of the exhaust.Running 25:1 Agip Moto X
Jesus only loves two strokes

shortshift

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2009, 08:54:07 pm »
The oxygenation of fuel is described here. Ethanol is used as one addition to achieve this. As I have written it is not good for 2 cycle mixing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygenate

Those Flowsticks I have had for some 16 years, and will try to find out if they are sold to the public.
To work out the octane rating of fuel without complex apparatus is very difficult (and impossible to be worked out in the field) and is conducted under laboratory conditions using a special engine with variable compression, air/fuel ratio . http://www.astm.org/Standards/D2699.htm

There are various race fuel suppliers around the place. I would check out ELF, VP and the locally produced stuff from Fuel2Race out of Sydney that is very good and doesn't have the high sponsorship and import price tags. I have used their 100+ and 102 with great success.
http://www.racefuels.com.au/fuelsForBikes.asp

This may be helpful in describing in layman's terms additive treats of 2 cycle oils even if it discusses marine engines.
http://www.wayneswords.com/cgi-bin/wayne.pl?noframes;read=39503
http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/article.jsp?ID=21011229

It is wise to become mindful and informed of what you are really buying. On the weekend walking through the campsites and talking to people I came across a bottle of Shell Advance SX2 2 stroke oil. I picked it up and read the label on the back. I was rather disappointed that it said made with " Poly-Iso-Butene Synthetic base fluid" (PIB).   Now it doesn't say that on their web page.
http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=au-en&FC2=/au-en/html/iwgen/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/au-en/html/iwgen/shell_for_motorists/oils_lubricants/advancerange_0620.html#1
It simply says "Synthetic Fortified", now when I put my dollars across the counter I am expecting to pay for a product that contains "some" % of Polyol-Ester (POE) or Poly Alpha Olefin (PAO) synthetic base fluid as the fortifying agent. Their top of the line Racing X2 contains a blend of both of these compounds.
So what you are really buying is a mineral oil that has had PIB added to it as a lubricity agent. PIB should not really be called a synthetic lubricating fluid in the same class or category as a POE, and this only confuses the consumer out there, in fact it is actually a rubber compound, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisobutylene   
Advance SX2 would be seen as an equivalent performance to say Maxima Premium 2 or Motul 510. But the Maxima and the Motul also has POE in it. http://www.maximausa.com/products/2stroke/premium2.asp so they would be better products and perhaps more expensive than the Shell which incidentally is the case. There is nothing wrong with the Advance product and will work well and I have used it, but the price difference is in the base fluid and Esters are very expensive. It is more of a fortified mineral oil rather a true semi-synthetic 2 cycle oil, and it should not state "Synthetic Fortified" anywhere on their packaging as it can mislead the buyer when choosing an oil based on quality and performance. Their Ester/PAO Racing X2 might be worth looking into more.

The argument I have is with the continued play on words and construction of sentences in their data sheets/labelling etc that if challenged in court or by consumer advocates the oil companies would win, and have plans in place to do that at any time, by the continued play on words where the judge would be so confused he would throw the case out.
I wont go into the argument of what is defined as Synthetic, but to give some analogies, is Soy Milk Synthetic dairy milk? Is Margarine Synthetic butter? Is Aspartame Synthetic sugar? Is PIB a synthetic oil?.....no they are not! They are classified as Substitutes to the real thing. In our example PIB should be listed as an additive not the BASE fluid as you only use a minor % of it.

The Maxima SuperM Injector is fine at 56CSt @ 40C as it has a very high flow rate when cold due to its higher than average VI figure of 138.

I need to clarify with a Castor oil, and looking back at the flow test I did with Castor 927, a castor may show it has the same viscosity range @40C than say Motul 800 BUT when the temperature drops to say 18C during the test it thickens up and this is due to the Viscosity Index figure (VI) being only 99 as against 135 or so with the 800. The 927 showed a reduction of flow by about 45% in a temp variation of 22C.  We need to be aware of these issues so we can change our mixing procedures to best suit the product we are handling.
If I put Castrol R30, Shell Advance Super M and A747 together on the flowstick it would show similar results. Even though say A747 has thinner viscosity listed it plainly says on the bottle not to be used below 0C (32F) as at that temperature the stuff will be hard as butter.

Maicojames, the Silkolene KR2 is virtually equivalent to the other castor/synthetic blends and MJ it can be mixed at 20:1 just fine and like all Castors mix it on the spot, pour it in and ride and realise the shelf life is limited as it absorbs moisture and falls out of suspension.The A747 is the thinnest in viscosity that I can see of all the oils in this castor blend category. It must have thinner ester mixed in with the heavier castor.
I will have to double check exactly what Silkolene grade that shop had on the floor as there are variuos grades that have similar sounding names and the crosscheck the viscosity and VI if I can source a data sheet from Fuchs. I know the people from the UK and can get this information.

I am glad that things looked positive for JiGantor's bikes......your muffler packing will not get contaminated as fast and will last longer......The oil settling on the outlet is really just oil getting caught in the dead air space just around the exit and forming a deposit there.
It concerns me further when the dealer states that you MUST use a particular brand and grade of oil in a certain ratio. I notice we have some American readers of our forum, and in the US there is a law called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act  that states that if a manufacturer tells you to use say Mercury Oil in your engine for period X and that if you use any other oil then your warranty will be voided, then the manufacturer MUST give you the oil for FREE of charge. The same if you bought new Yamaha bike and the dealer says that you must use Yamalube in it for warranty purposes. Tell him to stick it if he doesnt give you the oil free of charge. This cut the BS in the USA like in your Buick you must use Quaker State.
So over here it is really a matter of ethics or principle to offer a wider range of brands and information for the rider to trial a variety of ratios as well.

And as Stevo17 found out he had great performance with the Bel-Ray H1R that is thinner than the Motul 800 he previuosly ran. I tried to buy it but couldnt find it anywhere. I am trying to be the devils advocate here Stevo but how did you know that it was Motul 800 in your crankcases? I dont know what colour the H1R is, the Si-7 is a Light Blue, the Motul800 you can see is a dark red. I know it has a high tackiness factor perhaps through fortification of some high molecular PIB.
I would also try running H1R at 20-25:1 to see how you go.

I incidently ran the BR Si-7 @ 20:1 over the weekend and it definatley smoked a lot less under acceleration compared to some other oils I used and the bike ran hard with it. Many times I looked behind me and thought, "Oh there is no smoke......this Ester stuff works!".  The plug was very clean and I had the same effects on the plastic as JiGantor had. The oil came out in a vapour. I feel that days requiring riders to "burn" their expansion chambers on a bonfire to remove oil carbon deposits is in the past.  Below you can see the blackness on my guard as well.


A 2 stroke engine operates under the Total Loss Lubrication principle where its lubricant gets thrown out (UNBURNT) through the exhaust system. The lubricant is then continuously replenished and its amount governed by how much the operator puts into the fuel. In the old days with cheap Group I base fluids, Bright Stock and leaded fuel the oil became OXIDISED and formed carbonaceous deposits in the exhaust and led to exhaust port blocking. After I had my expansion chamber chemically degreased by Jet-Hot Coatings before applying the ceramic coating I havent had anymore carbon build up in the unit.  I have seen ports over 20 years ago up to 35% or so blocked off from the top seriously affecting performance and timing.
If there is rust in the exhaust after such a short time then 2 possible reasons : it might be put down to leaded fuels (Avgas 100 but I think the limit these days is 98 pump gas) used where the lead salts promote corossion regardless of oil film that will break down where the salts take over. I will have a look at some exhausts from some karts when I go to the tuners place next few days to borrow a flywheel puller, but these engines only see flat out running and very hot exhausts where the speed and heat of the gas stream is such that nothing would settle on the glowing red hot surfaces.


« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 08:21:03 pm by shortshift »

Offline shortshifter

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #114 on: July 28, 2009, 08:02:07 am »
Hey Shortshift,that is a very cool handle brother.I spoke to a well known CZ MXer and VMXer from the 70,80 90's yesterday and asked him about what he had used in his bikes and he said castrol R early on but then went to a Mobil lawnmower oil at 25:1,which took me by surprise.On regular tear downs everything was bright and shiny with no nasty surprises.How do these oils stack up against the designated motorcycle oils?

Offline Graeme M

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #115 on: July 28, 2009, 10:21:29 am »
This has to be one of the best ever threads on ozVMX.  BITD I ran 25:1 in my bikes until during the 80s the whole thin mix thing came on and I used to run 40:1 on TTS. I believed all the stories about less oil equaling less splooge and more power. It wasn't until Lozza made his post a while back about the adgvantages of 20:1 that I changed.

I now run my 75 RM125 on Castrol Activ at 20:1 and have done since the last engine rebuild. I run my 05 YZ125 on Motul 800 at 30:1. Both feel to me to be jetted well, the YZ runs nice and crisp with the barest minimum of splooge. I rarely notice more than a fine deposit at the tailpipe. The RM too runs just great, although a little work on jetting might tidy it up in the middle. Oil wise though, next to no splooge anywhere. I recently pulled both down for rings and both looked lovely and shiney inside. I no longer have any problems with plug fouling which was a major problem on my RM400N running 40:1. I am more than happy with my setup although I am now vaguely wondering if TTS might be a better option for the YZ than the Motul.

I recall reading (I think it was Eric Gorr) that you can judge correct mixture for your engine by the amount of oil deposited out of suspension on the crankcase floor. I have no idea if this is wise advice, but interesting in light of a couple of comments above...

Offline shortshifter

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #116 on: July 28, 2009, 10:57:30 am »
So Ji can I assume from your test that you will be running TTS at 25:1 in you old air cooled Euro bikes and jetting up?I have been alternating between Motul 800 and Silkolene at 30:1 but am now thinking to change to TTs at the above ratio.I always use 98 BP.

Offline Viper666

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2009, 11:16:52 am »
Shortshift,
Have read this thread with great interest. I have no qualifications whatsoever, pisshead being the exception, so it is times like these I like to hear from an "expert" and then add my 2 bobs worth.
When I first started racing, 1976, the given ratios were, as you repeatedly state, either 20:1 or 25:1. I used whatever was at hand in relation to oils and mixed at 25:1 (Allowing for paraplex error, no measuring bottles) as stated in the handbook and proceeded to thrash whatever bike I had at the time. I have even used BP Zoom. In 78 I bought a new YZ125E, followed the run in instructions given to me by the shop owner and then thrashed the hell out of it too. Did a plug chop, saw it was a bit black, dropped 1 main jet size and never touched it again. Used to wash the air filter in petrol and squeeze though whatever 2 stroke oil you used in the petrol. Much to the horror of that shop owner I rode it through the bush, mate's properties or anywhere to get as much ride time as possible. Practiced nearly every weekend that I didn't race. I could not afford to follow the manual's guideline for piston\ring replacement as I was a second year apprentice with no help from anyone else so my bike maintenance was far worse than it is now. "How is that possible" I hear the scoofs of disbelief. I did relent when power started to wane and got it bored out 0.25 over. Due to faulty crank case suffered by D & E models (Main bearing cups vibrating loose) I had to pull the bike down quite a few times but I only replaced bearings and seals once or twice. I also need to note this was done with very basic tools and no compressor for blow dust and other contaminents out of things. Never replaced conrod, big end etc. After 2 years of having its arse flooged right off I retired it and me from racing as I could not afford to live and work in Melbourne & support a "Racing habit". The bike was still riden occassionly for a few years to come but not much. I might add that at some stage during my 2 year "Racing career" the shop owner put me onto MC1 @ 50:1. I cant explain why but somthing was not right so I went back to mineral oil @ 25:1.

I know I'm going on a bit but I do have a point to get to, I think.

Many years later, about 1997, I pulled it down because of a gearbox problem then promptly let it sit in open boxes it a damp airy old shed for 5 years before being convinced to reassemble it. Not wanting to waste money on it it got the bear neccessities. 2nd gear & rings. Back together it went with 25 year old bearings, seals, silastic repaired gaskets etc. you get the picture. Threw in some mower fuel that had to be 6 months old and to my amazement started almost straight away. With it going I went and bought some new mineral oil & I rode for several weekends before thinking I would like to get back into this but before committing to the Viper scene and the Western Region I went, for want of a better word, racing.

I entered a 2 dayer at Monza, flogged the old 125 over the 2 days and had a grin from ear to ear. Later after racing on the Sunday me & some friends went back to my place for a BBQ. My cousin asked to go for a ride and off he went only to come back pushing it. It had done a bigend. Oh well I thought, it is 25 years old and has been poorly maintained, what do you expect.

Now armed with more tools than a George Michael concert and a slighty better bank account than when I was an apprentice, thank god for Visa, I set about giving the old girl the first proper rebuild it has ever had. Conrod kit, all bearings and seals, rebored, piston kit, the lot. Now that the engine is as close as it was ever going to get to new I had to protect it. Asked several people their opinion of what oil and what ratio. A friend from "The old days" who was still into racing, curtsy of his children, and he swore by Motul 800 but recommended 33:1 being air cooled. After much oil dripping from the exhaust and recommendation from that same shop owner I raised it to 40:1. I also used proper air filter oil washing it in mineral turps. I have since bought many other racing bikes for Viper, YZ250F, 400F, a couple of 125F's & others, all running 800 @ 40:1 in 95 or 98 RON ULP. Anytime they were pulled down for whatever reason I was pleased with the cleanliness but noticed more than expected wear. I was told it was our fine dust caused by the drought (Same shop owner again). Now I will say that the 4 engine failures (4 different bikes) I have had in the passed 7 years were not due to lack of oil or at least 3 deffinitely weren't but now (I'm nearly at My Point!) I am wondering on the 4th. You see it was my original 125E engine in a 125F frame that my daughter raced. I had actually retired the bike to restore it now that I had 2 125F's for me & my daughter. Unfortunately she couldn't ride the F on the pipe like it has to be so I put the E engine in as it pulls from down low a lot better. This engine had done very little work since it's full rebuild but it siezed the bigend bearing. I put it down to bad luck. I put a second hand DT175 crank in it and it is still going.

This got me thinking to how much some VMX riders now pull down their engines to replace bigends, conrods, bearings etc. Far more than they would have in their hay day in full racing mode. I am always hearing of siezures, flogged out bearings etc.

Hear is my point (Thank god I hear you all scream, that is if you're still reading) given the very poor maintenance my 125 did, or did not may be more to the point, receive the thing ran hard for almost 2 years, never siezing, no bearing problems only major repairs were though faulty manafacturing and I could certainly ride harder then. Jump 25 years, better maintenance, better components, better tools, not a better riber but better oils. Or are they? I put my engine back together with far more precision than was possible or I cared about when I was 19 but it still failed and shortshifter I think you have given me the answer. What you have stated now fits the bill. I will now go back to manafacturers specs on all my bikes.

One thing though, many have asked you your preferrence of oils and even though you have given snippets away I dont think you have ever directly answered. Is it because you are afraid to give a concise answer for fear of someone destroying their bike, for whatever reason, and trying to lay the blame at your feet? I am sure that everyone will take it as recommendation only and not gospel.

Just a suggestion but when you talk of R30 or 800 etc I cant remember which is castor, which is fully sythetic etc. I know you continually say only mix castor on the day, short shelf life etc.
Could you simply do a list and not poo poo any product but simply put next to it 4 columns. The first would be its type fully synthetic, sythetic blend, castor, mineral etc then followed by pro, cons & recommend.

eg

Motul 800      Type  Fully Synthetic   Pro Great adhersion                    Con Low viscosity     Recommend     (Left blank)

Castrol TTS   Type  (Forgot)            Pro Great friction protection         Con  Cost per litre    Recommend      Yes

I for one am a bit of a sheep where it comes to this, I followed the word of a mate I regarded as very knowledable and for all intent and purposes put me onto a good thing.
Now I would like your opinion!

Simply put, what is YOUR favourite oil/oils to use??

As many have said before, one of the most interesting threads I have read in a while.

Hope I haven't put too many to sleep, at least I may have helped a few insomniacs.

Had my first real ride since September on Sunday, 2 x 3 laps....................Absoluetly knackered. Roll on Barrabool

At work, can only slip a few Melb Bitters in......

Viper666

« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 11:27:30 am by Viper666 »
Thank the Lord for Melbourne Bitter, anti-inflamatory drugs & an understanding wife.
YZ80H, YZ100G, YZ125E, YZ125F, YZ125G, YZ250D, YZ250E, YZ250F, YZ250G, YZ250H, YZ400F, IT125G, IT250K & a, a, a,      CRF250X???????    

How the FUG did that sh*tbox Honda get in here?

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #118 on: July 28, 2009, 11:17:11 am »
Hi Shortshifter,
CZ owner and all round good guy from the Sunshine Coast.
No.
This thread came to late for me to test these concepts on my Maico prior to the Nationals. I will still be running 747 40:1 in my bikes as per normal. After the nationals I will have time to test all this required info and make the changes necessary. I will perform the compression tests to see what increase I get from different mixes.

You should try Shell V Power it definitely gives more torque out of corners than the Ultima.

I found a good way to test the viscosity of oil while at the shop.
Place the oil container in your hand horizontally and swish it back and forward.
Try this with all the brands.
The ones that slish and swish like water are SAE10w.
TTS is almost water like but Motul 710 is as thin as water.

My engine has not come back from the rebuilder at this stage so I don't think I will be riding my CZ at the nationals this year.

Keep Well
Ji

Ji Gantor

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Re: Dispelling the mystery between BR MC1 and other 2T oils
« Reply #119 on: July 28, 2009, 12:17:03 pm »
Conondale over night at this time of year will drop to 0 deg C.
The bikes that are left out over night are usually hard to start the next Morning.
There is usually a heavy dew and the sun does not peak over the tree line until about 9.00-10.00am
This fills the air with moisture which is easily tested, just pull out your camera and watch the lens fog up.

With this said I guess a thick Castor oil like R, 747, 927....... would not be the best to provide protection with.
The cold air in my experience certainly makes the bikes faster.

Ji
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 01:27:41 pm by Ji Gantor »