Author Topic: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?  (Read 37382 times)

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Offline mboddy

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2015, 07:55:25 am »
Sorry, but all this just puts me off getting my YZ250D ready for VMX.

I want to just be able to send my shock to YSS and they rebuild it with new seals and oil and set the travel.
And provide me the parts to fit in my forks.
They provide me a certificate to say what the travel is and engrave something on the shock to indicate that the work was done.



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Offline Rossvickicampbell

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2015, 09:20:20 am »
for the record - MA replied to me yesterday - good quick service.  Haven't gone through as yet though - work getting in the way.

Geoff - glad to see you are still a smarta--e!!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 10:08:22 am by Rossvickicampbell »
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Offline KTM47

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2015, 09:33:16 am »
I asked MA how to measure wheel travel a couple of years ago. I'm still waiting for a reply ::)


MA GCR 16.15.10.2 says front wheel travel will not exceed 178mm (7 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited to 102mm (4 inches) measured at the axle.
Is that not enough info ?

No, it isn't. Not even close when top out springs and bump stops are added into the equation.

Top out springs and bump stops come into the equation if they effect travel, if they don't effect travel then they don't come into the equation. What else does the ordinary guy need to know?

We can have rules like this...

Option 1
MA GCR 16.15.10.2 says front wheel travel will not exceed 178mm (7 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited to 102mm (4 inches) measured at the axle.

or Option 2...

Notice: From 2.6.2015, the Competition Practices Act Pre 1974 (Cth) has been renamed the Competition and Consumer Act 2015 (Cth) and is known as the Australian Competition Law. Matters previously regulated by the M.A. Racing Act and various State and Territory Competition laws are now governed by the Australian Competition Law which is administered by the M.A. state and territory consumer agencies and, in respect of racing services, by M.A. As a result, all references to the Competition Practices Act and State and Territory fair racing legislation in Old farts Law's publications should now be read as a reference to the Australian Competition Law. Competition Law is in the process of updating its publications accordingly.


4.4.0 The Competition Practices Act in reference to alleged racing class of Pre 75

4.4.1 The party of the first part shall be known as the ‘wheel’

4.4.2 The party of the second part shall be known as ‘travel’
‘Travel’ shall be known as a movement in the vertical sense

4.4.3 The party of the third part shall be known as ‘Motorcycle’

4.4.4. M.A. agrees that ‘Travel’ shall be of 7”/4” accordingly in reference to ‘Wheel’


4.4.5                     If M.A. and Entrant cannot agree within 30 days on the change to the specification of the ‘travel’ based solely on the changes to the Specification of said motorcycle, then the unit of ‘travel’ will be determined by arbitration in the nearest Pub.
 
 
4.4.6            The parties agree that the only two issues for determination in the arbitration are (i) by how much Entrants modification of the Specification for said 'Motorcycle' changes (positively or negatively) ‘Travel’ to make the movement of ‘Wheel’ and (ii) as between M.A. and Entrant, which party's proposed ‘Travel’ for the Motorcycle most accurately reflects the M.A.s specification of 7”/4” to make the ‘Motorcycle’ based on the modified Specification.
 
4.4.7            Five days prior to the arbitration hearing, each party will submit a proposed “travel’ for the 'Motorcycle' and a written brief to the tribunal and the other party setting forth the basis and rationale for its proposed increase.
 
 
4.4.8            Neither M.A. and Entrant may appeal nor challenge the enforceability of a final judgment or Award for reasons of personal jurisdiction.



And just for the record Rossco, yes this is sarcasm ;D


Well put Geoff

This seem like a reasonable solution to me now that the MOMS is online it can be twice (or three) times as big.  Of course MA will still have to print some for clubs and level four officials.  They will just need a forklift to carry them.

Is there a sarcasm emoticon?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 04:15:38 pm by KTM47 »
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Offline KTM47

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2015, 09:37:31 am »
Sorry, but all this just puts me off getting my YZ250D ready for VMX.

I want to just be able to send my shock to YSS and they rebuild it with new seals and oil and set the travel.
And provide me the parts to fit in my forks.
They provide me a certificate to say what the travel is and engrave something on the shock to indicate that the work was done.

If you send your shock and forks out to be done and asked that they be legal for MA Pre 78 I'm sure they will know what to do.
MAICOS RULE DESPITE THE FOOLS

1999 KTM 200, 1976/77 KTM 400,1981 Maico 490

Offline GD66

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2015, 09:50:33 am »
This seem like a reasonable solution to me now that the MOMS is online it can be twice (or three) times as big.  Of course MA will still have to print some for clubs and level four officials.  They will just need forklift to carry them.






The MoMS is back this year to how it was, A5 size (around 210mm tall x 150mm wide). It would appear the "expert" who decided it should only be accessible by downloading it from online, or printed in the massive and impractical A4 format, may have moved on to annoy others...
Nostalgia's not what it used to be....

Offline GD66

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2015, 09:56:10 am »
You would logically measure the arcuate distance as the 7". That is the motion range through which the wheel is being controlled.  The same should apply for the rear.
Also, changes in rake angle will give a different vertical wheel travel with a telefork even though the swept travel hasn't changed.




Hi Michael,
The rule (in part) doesn't say vertical travel, it says front wheel travel, so it should be as simple as putting a zip tie on the fork leg and giving it a good bounce.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be....

Offline matcho mick

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2015, 12:10:09 pm »
your'e being too simplistic Glenno ;D,the trainspotters/anoraks will never go for it mate, :P
work,the curse of the racing class!!
if a hammer dosn't fix it,you have a electrical problem!!

Offline Slakewell

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2015, 12:27:33 pm »
More rules means less riders it's very simple maths.

For the people who keep thumping the rule book like a bible just remember when your the last people left turn the lights off when you leave.  :'( And yes you will right but you will be very lonely.
Current bikes. KTM MC 250 77 Husky CR 360 77, Husky 82 420 Auto Bitsa XR 200 project. Dont need a pickle just need to ride my motorcickle

Offline Michael Moore

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2015, 01:55:38 pm »
Hi Michael,
The rule (in part) doesn't say vertical travel, it says front wheel travel, so it should be as simple as putting a zip tie on the fork leg and giving it a good bounce.

An easy response to that is "front wheel travel in what direction?"  Horizontally, vertically, along the steering axis?  If the latter than what about Bultacos that have the forks angled differently from the steering axis?

Teleforks generally get defined by actual telescopic travel.   But a telefork at a steeper rake is going to have a larger amount of vertical travel and might be able to absorb a larger bump with it.  A telefork with the same stroke on your typical chopper (or raked out Triumph desert sled) won't be able to deal with that bump as well because the wheel movement is more rearwards than vertical.

Rear suspension appears to usually be defined by the rules in various organizations by vertical travel.   The actual amount of wheel-path travel for a given vertical dimension on a swing arm suspension will vary with the relative height of the swing arm pivot.  A LLF is more like the rear suspension (both use swing arms) than it is a telefork, so it could be sensible to also measure the travel vertically.  I presume there is a desire to be consistent and not comparing apples and oranges, but that could be a presumptious assumption.

Shucks, you could even say that teleforks are defined by actual damper travel, so if that is the way the rule is worded any LLF that had less than 7" of travel in the damper should be legal, no matter what the wheel travel might be.

I can put a zip tie on the stanchion of a Greeves LLF and bounce the front end and the zip tie won't move at all.  Or I can put it on the damper shaft and say "see, I've got another 3 inches I can add before not being legal".

Words mean things, so you have to be careful how you use them.  A rule that depends on poorly defined terms may find itself being challenged with a "what does that actually mean?" question.

If front wheel travel is meant to be measured in a straight line between full bump/full droop axle positions then the rule ought to say that, especially when there are 10-20 years of bikes out there that didn't use teleforks (DOT, Cotton, Greeves, Van Tech, Sachs/DKW/Hercules, Reynolds, some works BSAs and Husqvarnas. Scorpion, Butler, Sprite, Tandon, Royal Enfield, Maico, Tandon, DMW, Cheney, Rickman etc just to name some that I found in reference books with a couple of minutes of page-turning).  If the actual distance traveled by the axle (which means along the arc, not the chord, for a swing arm) is what is wanted, the rule should say that. 

As I think I said earlier, I think most people are willing to accept a range of rules as long as they sound somewhat reasonable and aren't ambiguous.  But at times it can take a bit of thinking to eliminate ambiguity.

My dealings with AHRMA rules leads me to believe that many times the rules are done by people of good will who are fairly expert in the field, but while their expertise may be deep the breadth of their knowledge is just a bit too limited.  That can lead to a perfectly sound (but limited scope) rule that fails as soon as someone pipes up with "but what about all of these bikes where that doesn't work?"  If they've got zero experience with anything but teleforks, the possibility of making sure that the rule covers leading link/trailing link/girder/who knows what? front ends may never even occur to the rule makers.

I've got/had both Hercules and Greeves LLFs, I've got lots of photos and I can make replicas of Van TechReynolds etc forks and I'd like to run a LLF on some project bikes because I think they are cool and teleforks are kind of dumb.   :P   So I contacted my local rule makers and asked "how do you want to measure the travel of this fork because the rule book doesn't really apply to it and I don't want to show up and have someone hassle me over "too much travel"."  When I can't get an answer it makes me a little uneasy.  I'm not looking for any particular answer, but if they can't pick one of three obvious alternatives, what are they doing on a national rules committee?

cheers,
Michael

Offline bigk

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2015, 02:57:05 pm »
There's no suspension limit for vinduro, enduro or trail riding & it's real easy to participate.
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Offline Slakewell

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2015, 03:31:07 pm »
Im curious as to why more riders turn up for Vinduro's than even the Nats , can one of you rule thumpers explain that to me?
Current bikes. KTM MC 250 77 Husky CR 360 77, Husky 82 420 Auto Bitsa XR 200 project. Dont need a pickle just need to ride my motorcickle

Offline bigk

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2015, 03:47:03 pm »
Few basic but simple rules & no rulebook pundits/experts. But then vinduro's are non competitive, so there's really no need to disqualify anyone before they hit the track.
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Offline Gippslander

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2015, 04:14:55 pm »
So the solution is to run the Vinduro around the MX track, say 10 circuits,  put arrows on each corner so we can't get mixed up about which way to go, and to make it easy for the timekeepers start everyone off at the same time, sounds cool n' easy

Offline Tossa

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2015, 04:27:01 pm »
Im curious as to why more riders turn up for Vinduro's than even the Nats , can one of you rule thumpers explain that to me?

simple, as it was back in the day minority race, majority ride for fun  We've had amazing response to the VinduroWA club over here
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Offline KTM47

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Re: Suspension travel limit - which bikes?
« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2015, 04:28:14 pm »
It's funny that the original question wasn't answered.  I think asking someone who does suspension would probably get an answer for that.  But don't post the question here.

As for how to measure suspension travel front and rear for various different types of suspension the answer I posted on the first page would appear to be correct.

So there is no need for anymore pages.

So can someone lock this post?
MAICOS RULE DESPITE THE FOOLS

1999 KTM 200, 1976/77 KTM 400,1981 Maico 490