Bored at work and thinking VMX

[bigk]

Thanks maico31, it'll never hit the track but if any forum member gets to Bendigo and would like to see it and some other cool VMX bikes, be sure to look me up.
K

[Maico31]

Hey bigk back in '79 Peter Ploen the Kiwi lived here and rode for Kawasaki. He fitted a '76 KX400 motor to a '79 KX250a5 frame to race in the open class and fabricated a reed block and welded it to the piston port cylinder. That bike was competitive in the open class and could be duplicated legally for the Evo class today.

[firko]

In the end its not the mechanical advantage that these bikes might have over legitimate bikes that concerns me. A good rider can win on anything. I love modified bikes and in fact every bike I own except my DT1 resto is modified in some way. The difference is that my bikes are modified to fit within a given era . They are bikes that were built to race or are replicas of bikes raced during their particular era. If I was young and fit enough I'd love to build a '78 490 Frankenbike which I think is legal. What worries me is the old chestnut of when is enough, enough.

Here we have a situation where folks are wanting to change the rules "just that little bit" to fit their particular bike into the class. My concern is that with each of those little changes being let through to the keeper, the original concept of the EVO class changes just that little bit more until in the end you have something that barely resembles the original concept. I suspect that is what has happened in Holland.  I'd say their rules have been fudged "just that little bit" every year since the class was introduced  until we now have the situation where the class bares no resemblence to the original concept. The line has to be drawn somewhere, do we do it after we allow the CR450 in because we feel sorry for the Honda blokes who haven't got a big bore to race or do we do it before hand to prevent other rule fudges? Who decides when enough is indeed enough?

A few posts back my chum Magoo made the statement that if they can make HL replicas, why not RC replicas. The misconception with HLs is that they were some exotic works bike as was the RC450 Honda. The difference is huge. The HL was always available to the public, albeit in small quantities but they were available as complete bikes through Yamaha UK or in kit form from Pro Fab in the USA. RC Hondas however were exotic one or two offs built for the works riders only. It's not a legitimate comparison.

[mx250]

This discussion breaks out in various forms from time to time. There seems to be 'at cross purposes' with one group with an emphasis on 'period originalality', another group with an emphasis on 'fair competition', another group with an emphasis on ‘interesting and challenging engineering' and another group with an emphasis on ‘brand loyalty and an interesting representation’.

Why not a ‘air cooled, drum brake, no linkage, period frame’ racing with only current rules legal bikes eligible for prize money, points and trophies? 

Would that be a win, win, win outcome?

[BAHNZY]

BigK,
Putting a CR450 engine in a twin shock is against the rules, no contest. If such a bike was to turn up to an event that runs under the GCR's any where in Australia it would be in trouble. That is not my opinion, nor a judjement of the Nazi's that you refer to is is a simple fact, the GCR's tell us that. Are the GCR's correct and in-line with the people who ride in todays events?, probably not and this is what i have been trying to get across for the last 12 months.
I have been belting my head against the wall for ages and my frustration (like yours) gets to a point where any stupid comment seems plausable, but i still ask, Where do you draw the line?

And in General
The KX440 that has been refered to is absolutely 100% EVO legal and has never been questioned in relation to EVO - EVER!
However, when the bike was built, the class that it was racing in was not EVO, it was Pre80 and in that class the bike attracted a lot of attention from many other riders and officials. Was the bike legal for Pre80 racing, thats a tough call and was debated by many, untill EVO GCR's were adopted.

Just because a competitor is running mid pack, dont just assume, that it is as someone quoted, "a victimless crime" I have seen 1st hand a mid pack runner place in the top 3 come end of season, through nothing else other than consistancy and determination. To be eliminated by a rider on a bike that does not meet the GCR's is pretty tough pill to swallow. A lot of riders bust there arse (and budget) to be midpack.

Let me get one thing strait, i have tryed to mediate a set of EVO & Pre85 GCR's, and with the exception of one or two people, most have seen fit to tear me a new one for what i have proposed rather than be constructive and help get it right for 99% of the population.
For all the piss and wind that some people come up with, there was only one (1) proposal put forward to MA Classic commission for the 09 GCR's. If you can find the time to get on the PC and spend countless hours on a forum, i'm sure that you could send an e-mail to MA with your views and idea's.
As it stands we now we have to wait for the 2010 GCR's before any changes can be made, a full one and a half seasons away.

Bahnsy

[BAHNZY]

And my humble opinion, having a class simply caused EVO is where it all falls down. Sometime back i suggested,



From what i am hearing the main change needed would be changing the Pre81 to Pre82.
As best i can work out, Australia seems to be the only country that uses EVO as a class rather than refering it to as a period and then having sub classes fall under it. Under the above matrix, Frankenstiened bikes, Works replicas, etc, like the RC450 of BigK's, would be o/k.

[Graeme M]

I actually really agree with that. I've long held the view that we should have Eras, and that way Vintage is always a true Vintage. I like the idea too of dividing Pre 81/82 from post 81/82, yet still have it fall under Evo as an era. Personally, I'd rather see Pre 78 in Classic, and include Pre 90 in Evo. This keeps all bikes likely to be raced for the next decade in a true 'old bikes' structure. Post 90 is modern and will be for a while yet, but Pre 90 is not. The UK I note see Evo as up to Pre 90. And Pre 78 bikes are a far cry from say a Pre 82 or Pre 85, they are far more truly a classic.

With this in mind, it would be easier to structure eligibility rules as we get away from this grey Evo/Pre85 area. I really like it.

[mainline]

anyone seen the latest classic dirt bike mag with the 84 rm500 engine in the 80 rm400 frame?

and the evo bike special featuring an 88 yz250 and an 89 cr500

 

[TM BILL]

Yep i liked the RM conversion , but the CR / YZ are still to close to modern for my taste.

[Maico31]

Bahnsy the evo class rules were adopted here from the USA back in '97 for the Thumper Nats. The rules are simple and the class has run trouble free for a long time. All this talk about building works replicas is just that..TALK. It doesn't mean the class needs to be changed. The only people having trouble getting their head around the simple rules seem to be Victorians who have had a pre '80 class until recently. A pre '81 or pre '82 class will only introduce another single shock class with bikes almost identical to the Pre '85 class. What's the point of that? Where will all the '79 CR250's, '79 KX250's, '79 & '80 RM400's end up?

[bigk]

It's fun to build an RC replica, just a shame the fun can't be had by be riding it as an evo bike, even though it meets all the basic requirements of air cooled, non linkage, no disc brakes. I know it's against the rules to use an engine from a single shock bike, but the rules as they are would let someone use a YZ465, or Husky 500 engine in their Honda and be legal. This is the absurd part and the part that probably needs to be addressed. Turning a single shock bike into a twin shock is the wrong way for sure and should never be allowed, but if I can use an air cooled engine from as late as 1984 (Husky 500) I should be able to use an engine from 1981 or 1982, after all it is still an old air cooled engine. When you can go and buy a NEW replica frame, swing arm & higly adjustable shocks which have been developed & tweaked here & there over the years to improve them and use them legally, but not be able to use a basic old air cooled engine design because it came out in a production single shock bike, IMO is just ridiculous.
The big bore evo class grids will only continue to get smaller, or just be full of RM400's & YZ465's. There just aren't many Husky CR's, Maico 490's or KTM495's out there, and who really wants to see that? Bahnsy's era class proposal is probably worth investigation and development, but what do we do in the mean time? If someone decided to turn up with an RC & ride it for everyone to see, I think 99.9% of people would be wrapt to see some color and diversity at the races. Looks like RC replica owners will just have to bench race for a bit longer, or bastardise their bikes to make them confirm.
K

[evo550]

Bigk,
No one say's you can't race it, and if race results aren't that important, then just punt it around in the pre'85 class............a fairly logical solution. You get to ride the bike and no scrutinazi gets their feathers ruffled.

[Hoony]

Bigk,
No one say's you can't race it, and if race results aren't that important, then just punt it around in the pre'85 class............a fairly logical solution. You get to ride the bike and no scrutinazi gets their feathers ruffled.

Yep on the money.

[bigk]

So I have to race my air cooled, drum brake, twin shock bike against watercooled, disc brake, single shock rising rate linkage bikes. Is that fair & reasonable? This is a really bad tennis match and I'm not playing anymore.
K

[firko]

 I'm so glad I'm more interested in the pre 75 class. The legalities were sorted out years ago and there's hardly been a problem since. The Evo class was also sailing along fine until this so called "rule shakeup". The problems within the Evo movement, as minimal asthey were, were more about getting more riders involved rather than changing the eligibility criteria.  Rather than trying to build bikes that suit your idea of what Evo should be, why not just enjoy the class as it is. If you really feel the need to race one of these so called "replicas" then either race it in pre '85 or save it for Classic Dirt.