Bored at work and thinking VMX

[evo550]

Husky riders did, right up until 1985.
Have you actually tried to compete and been told to put it away or just assuming no one will let you ride it?

[bigk]

No I haven't tried and don't want to, I'm happy racing Husqvarna. I just feel for the Honda rider who wants a big bore evo bike and beleive they should be eligible given that they are air cooled, drum brake, twin shock. I really believe it should be that simple. Now there are people saying how their evo bikes are competitve in the pre'85 class, so what's the difference? I reckon it's BS and always will. Bit like having to put travel restrictors in your '74 Maico or '77 Montesa to make them eligible in pre'75 & pre '78, BULLSHIT!
K

[evo550]

Taa Daa
http://www.huskyclub.com/CandJohlins021w.jpg
and all above board.

[DJRacing]

This topic was never about the rules or trying to change them, but about a bike that was raced in 1979 and if someone made a replica of that bike to the best of their ability/knowledge/materials and finances, wouldnt it be a cool bike.

Whether the rules are right or wrong, whether the rules need changing or remain the same, is immaterial to how YOU as a ride would feel lining up against a bike such as a RC500 replica.

Ask yourself this;
Would YOU be unhappy enough to turn around and ride away, complain strongly to the administration, or welcome the bike for what it is?

And what is a RC450 replica?  It's someone's pride and joy, it's many hours of labour, it's someone's love of old motocross bikes, It's trying to re-create an "era" were "Werks bikes" that most of us never got to see in real life dominanted the world of Motocross. It is, in my opinion, a bike of historic value, albeit a replica, but never the less a bike that did campaign all those years ago.

Forget the rules just for a minute, because the rules of today are only their for controlling a 'certain' aspect of VMX, not all of VMX.
To call an RC450 Replica a frankenbike or a butcherised bastard is "totally against the grain" of what VMX stands for. Do we not appreciate craftmanship, ideas, and the 'want', of creating such a bike.
I have read though most of this (OzVMX)forum and "rules" aside, the general feeling is the liking of Vintage Motocross bikes and the era of which they came from, that whole "back in the day" concept is the joy of it all.
Put your hand up if you believe that a concept bike is breaking the rules, and if you do have your hand up, which rules are being broken? The rules of the era? The rules of the bike? The rules we have imposed? Or the morale rules of VMX?
I was on the understanding that VMX was to re-create an era in time, to preserve the history of Motocross, and to enjoy a brotherhood of like minded people restoring, showing, racing and remembering, probably one of the greatest periods of motocross.
This so-called blaspheme of a bike is one of the pinnacles of what we stand for;. - and whether any replica "werks" bike is made, shown or raced, we should be welcoming it not chastising it because of a rule that has been made up 30 years after the fact.

I ask you again;
Would YOU be unhappy enough to turn around and ride away, complain strongly to the administration, or welcome the bike for what it is?

[TM BILL]

Taa Daa
http://www.huskyclub.com/CandJohlins021w.jpg
and all above board.

Fell out the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down  However in the south island of New Zealand it would be considered a thing of beauty and worth giving up a mans Ewe for 

[Nathan S]

I just feel for the Honda rider who wants a big bore evo bike ...

Ewww... So what did the Honda rider who wanted a big bore in 1979 do?
Why should the VMX rules be altered for him in 2008?
 

[E74]

Blahblahblah bla,blah blah blahbla Blahblahblah bla,blah blah blahbla Blahblahblah bla,blah blah blahblaBlahblahblah bla,blah blah blahblacomeoutandblowyourdoorsofonmycr125anywayBlahblahblah bla,blah blah blahblaBlahblahblah bla,blah blah blahbla

[Colin Jay]

Since I don't actually ride in VMX events, I normally stay out of these types of threads/discussions, however I have chosen to butt in on this one to express my disapointment at the use of "Scrutinazi"!

As you might guess, I am a licenced scrutineer (along with Clerk of Course, Race Secretary etc and licenced Coach).

Please remember that every official at an amature (club) event and most State and Aust title events are unpaid volunteers.  We do these jobs because we love the sport and if no one esle does the job the sport will DIE! 

We don't make the rules, we just have to make sure that those who wish to ride in the event follow the rules and guide lines set down for the type event/class in question. Remember it is YOUR RESPONCIBLITY to unsure that the bike YOU present to the scrutineer is legal for the class you are entering and complies with the required safety standards!

I am quite sure that most VMX riders would not want the sport to go down the road that Historic Road Racing has gone, where Log Books are required for bike, which require all the major components of the bike to be catalogued, and proof of "use in period" required for any major component that is not original manufacture equipment.

I have deleted the rest of my comments for fear that some might think I am just another "Loser Official" having a rant.

However before you say "yeh, those who can ride, race, those who can't become officials", I have previously won two state championships in my chosen fields and I am currently leading my class in the championship series I am competing in this year.

CJ

[bigk]

Love your post E74 and it's very constuctive might I add. I think I read that in the the current GCR's. ColJ, you as a scrutineer are put under way too much pressure because of the ambigous, no COMMON SENSE rules. EVO should be simple as the basics of air cooled, no disc brakes, non linkage suspension + "from the era". Here's another example of how to bulid an RC: I am not allowed to use a cylinder or engine from '81 or '82 on my Honda, but can use a  NEW replica HL frame with modern improvements for my HL. Therefore along those lines I could go an get a new lump of alloy, spend a few hours with a milling machine, send it off and have it nikasil coated, stroke the crankshaft, bolt it on to my 1979 bottom end and everyone will be happy, even though the end result would be the same as using a thirty year old engine or cylinder. If anyone can convince me that this is common sense and helpful to the sport, I will bow down gracefully. The bikes meet the basic rules of evo and should be allowed, simple as that.
K

[Nathan S]

Col,

Your points are 100% valid... However, I'm sure you're aware of the existence of the peanuts who take the whole thing waaaay too seriously.... and then hide behind "but I'm a volunteer!" when its pointed out to them that they're harming the sport.

In my part of the world, we have great VMX scrutineers who understand that getting bikes out onto the track is the most important thing (within reason, of course....), and that if there is a eligibility issue that they've missed, the other competitors will sort it out.

However, I've come across these scrutinazis in my non-VMX motorsport, and they are incredibly destructive to the sport.

[firko]

Timeline 2010. Looking into the future, here's a possible forum exchange:
HONDABOY:I want to build an RC450 replica to race in the Evo class but can't for the life of me find a '78-80 twinshock Honda frame. Why can't I modify my single shock frame to twinshock? It's not going to hurt the class and will only improve the breed by having more open class Hondas.

REPLIES:
Hondafan: I Agree with Hondaboy, us Honda blokes are really being penalised by not being able to find suitable frames. I'ts alright for the blokes who got in early back in '08 and for the 250 blokes but what an I going to do with my CR450? It's not competitive in the pre 85 class so I'm stuck with a lemon. By welding twin shock mounts to my frame it'll look just like Noycies bike, I promise.

Maicomac: I'm with Hondaboy and Hondafan. I want to race an '81 490 Maico but I can't find one under 20k. Why can't I weld twin shock mounts to my 1983 500 Maico and be alloowed to race in Evo. Once I weld the twin shocks on, it'll be just like an '81, honest!

And so on ans so on. If the above scenario was accepted it wouldn't be long before you have monstrosities like those things they race in Holland. It's human nature to fudge the line and if you think that continuous testing of the limits won't happen, you're a poor judge of human nature. I'm a supposed rule nazi and even I test the limits of the rullebook with my bikes. The one difference is that I never go past the written limits and never reinvent history. All of my bikes are trick but historically correct. The reason the pre 65, pre 75 and now pre '78 rules are so bulletproof is that right from day one the racers realised that the rules were there to keep everyone honest and to prevent people reinventing the vintage bike. Sure some people disagree with having to limit the back suspension on certain Maicos, Montesas, KTMs and CCMs but they put up with it because they agree with the reasoning behind the rule.
The reasons behind keeping the Evo class within the limit of using only bikes that are pre linkage is to prevent the eventual fudging of history by inventing bikes that didn't exist like in the above scenario and in the building of replicas of bikes that are merely one mans idea of what a works bike is.  Now, if somebody borrowed a genuine works RC off Terry Good or someone and faithfully reproduced the frame, suspension and engine to those genuine works specs, well that'd be not only acceptable but highly commended. To take a production 1979 Honda CR250 frame and fit a 1981 CR 450 engine to it and call it an RC replica is a big ask. My dictionary defines replica as:1. A copy or reproduction of a work of art, especially one made by the original artist. 2. A copy or reproduction, especially one on a scale smaller than the original.Building a 450 powered '79 model it is no way a replica of what Graeme Noyce rode but is merely a hot rod put together to look kinda' like that bike. I'd bet if you put the two next to each other the comparison would be as viable as fitting an RM370 engine to a TM400 and calling it an RH replica.

I can understand the frustration of Honda owners that the company didn't build a twinshock 500 and therefore they are missing out on racing in the 500 class but sometimes history doesn't deal us the hand we want. Changing that history is impossible so if the 500 class is important and you aren't into 4 strokes either build a Mugen or move to another brand of bike.

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[kaw440]

With the on going problems with cost fuel bikes repairs and parts to get to race VMX bike we should not be trying to discorage new people to build bikes and come along yes we have to have rules but remember the more rules the harded the rules the less riders we will get this is about the bikes and racing VMX the more we complicate the evo rules the less bikes will be on the line do you think buy putting a 500cc  air cooled engine in a evo frame will make you a winner get real you have to be able to ride the thing fast in the first place a good 250cc rider will most times beat you any way lets get more bikes out there and not become a piss ant little club event no one wants to be at or even take the time to run because there are no bikes that turn up to race drum brakes twin shocks  and air cooled how easy we all have internet access if you want find the parts that suit the class so you can build you dream evo bike do so and go racing

[bigk]

Maybe it's just me being argumentative, the other night I took my wife out for dinner and when it came to the desert menu I got a little confused and had to ask the waitress to clarify whether the sticky date pudding did indeed have sticky dates in it or was it a date pudding that was sticky? I'm sure it doesn't have sticky dates, and I'm sure a 450 0r 480 powered RZ/RA chassis should be evo legal.
K

[Colin Jay]

The way I see it, the issue here is really one of changing rules to suit one or two people, and it is one where you will never make everyone happy. As in the modified version of Abraham Lincoln's "You can fool all of the people ... ", quote, i.e,  "You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time."

The "powers that be" and make the rules are not going to change the rules just to suit one or two people, based on the philosophy embodied in the above quote. They can rightly see that once they change the rules for one person they will have every man and his dog asking for changes of the rules to suit their own particular case, and you end up killing the sport by having a rule book that is the size of an encylopedia. Eligibility scrutineering would be a nightmare and log books would be required as per Historic Road Racing, with photos of the bike as it was originally approved and a detailed list of components that have been approved, otherwise you would have to front your bike for scrutineering the day before the event, so the poor scrutineer could check every aspect of compliance with the class/era entered.

So basically you need to build your bike to suit the era and therfore rules that are in existance, and not try to build bikes that did not exist within the era that you want to race.

CJ

PS.

Fortunatlly, I have not had to work as an elegibilty scrutineer, only normal "safety" scrutineering, and I will admit that at times, I have passed bikes with minor "problem", after getting the rider to aknowledge that their bike did not comply, and getting a firm commitment that they would rectify the problem before fronting up for the next event.

[Nathan S]

Therefore along those lines I could go an get a new lump of alloy, spend a few hours with a milling machine, send it off and have it nikasil coated, stroke the crankshaft, bolt it on to my 1979 bottom end and everyone will be happy, even though the end result would be the same as using a thirty year old engine or cylinder.
If anyone can convince me that this is common sense and helpful to the sport, I will bow down gracefully.

I'm not sure I'll be able to convince you, but:
The point is that your ultra expensive, one-off, hand-built 2008 barrel is far more in line with the ultra expensive, one-off, hand-built 1979 RC barrel.
Back in 1979, very, very few people would have been able to get their hands on a 500cc Honda barrel - just because Honda later made something similar, doesn't mean it is a remotely 'historic' part.

And the talk of "just getting more bums on bike seats" is a mischievous diversion at least.... None of what's been suggested is illegal for pre-85 racing - so if people want to go and build an uber-bike, then they can - and they will be more than welcome to go and race with the pre-85s.
But if its really only about getting people on the Evo-open grid, then they can do that for much less time and money by either riding their 250 or by (god forbid!) riding a different brand of bike...