Bored at work and thinking VMX

[yzhilly]

This is a good argument for  Pre 82 class and then we could argue about follow on models

[Nathan S]

VMX247,
The bike was 100% era-legal, apparently in excellent original condition, and VERY close to stock - so there's zero doubt that the era was beautifully preserved - it was just the wrong engine capacity. In the world of rule-bending, this is far more blatant than 'those forks are from an 79 model, so they're not legal for pre-78 racing'.

There's no doubt that the rider was technically breaking the rules, but while he was running mid-pack (or worse), then it was a victimless crime.
Its not something I think should be encouraged, but given the actual set of circumstances, I was more than happy to let it slide.

If I'd kicked up a stink, then - apart from the immediate grief at the event - the guy would be likely to leave a an very neat, unusual bike at home in the future, and we'd all be poorer for it.

And yes, I'd probably have a very different attitude if he was at the pointy end of the field.

[VMX247]

There is always going to be some VMX einstein out there trying to re invent the VMX wheel  
 

thanks folks, lets hope that at least 80% of us keep it original.

[DJRacing]

I am amused at some of the answers here. When I posted this, I was thinking "wouldnt it be a cool bike", a big Red twin shocked Honda open classer, and yet it has gone from that, to rules, to butchering bikes.
Yet even the people who state how horrible and absurd this is, have bikes that have been butchered, altered motors, and more to the point modern performance parts on there own bikes. Please tell me in what vmx era where all the bike remained unaltered? Even back in the day how many bikes remained stock?
When you speak of thinks like "re-inventing", I hardly think that a 30yr old chassis with a 29yr old motor is re-inventing something. In 1981 it could be done. How about putting a V-force reed valve in that same motor? Re-invent reeds? or is this a blatant disreguard for preserving an era?
The era we are talking about obviously is the Evo class, which is a form of what we call Vintage motocross is it not? yet I can go out and buy a brand new Suzuki ER which is air cooled, twin shocked and has drum brakes and can be bought new in 2008. How is this revelant you ask? Will at least a 30yr old Honda with a 29yr old motor in it is still an old bike.
One of the best things about Vintage Motocross are the hybrids that get built. Thank goodness Torsten Hallman wasnt a closed minded guy that believed that what ever motor was in a frame it had to stay that way.
Before you start off with the rules and regulations that a bike like this was never done, take a look at footage of the '79 open GP's, it is only this "generation" that says it cant be done or that it is against the law??
How original are sidecars? For the life of me I cant remember ever been able to walk down to the local bike shop and buy a Vintage sidecar, but yet we have them. Where did those motors come from?
Arent we lucky that engine manufacturers havnt got a clause stating that their motors are not allowed to be changed into a different frames.
I'm all for preserving an era, but I am also for bikes being built wether it be a stock bike or a hybrid, the more bikes the more the era is preserved.

Remember at the end of the day if someone was riding a Honda CR450 twin-shocked bike, do you really think he or she is going to have less fun than someone on a picture perfect resto bike?

[bigk]

DJ is spot on when he says it would be a cool bike and that's really my point, and I for one would glad to see a few out there racing. The rules should be a guide and have certain parameters, but not anal and restrictive to the point of sillyness. New modernised shocks, tapered handlebars, modern mufflers on fourstrokes etc is allowed, (how many XL500/KLX250 did you see with nice big shiny modified CRF450 Pro Circuit mufflers in 1980), which in itself is a contradiction to the so called "spirit of the era", but no one seems to give any of that a second thought. But the poor guy who want's to have a big bore evo Honda, for no other reason than he is a Honda enthusiast, gets hammered by everyone. I have a replica RC450 which I've never had plans to ride, but I just might take it to a race meeting to see what would happen. I'm sure I'd get some amusement out of watching the eligibilty police have kittens at the thought of it hitting the track, WHICH IS WRONG. It is air cooled, twin shock , drum brake in a 1979 chassis. Tell me really what the difference is to a 1980 RM400 except that you had to be Graham Noyce or Brad Lackey to get a ride one back then. I could put an '84mm piston from another make of motorcycle in my RM400 which would take it to near 460cc, or fit a reed valve to my piston port engine to make it more manageable, say nothing and have no stress, but transplant a 450/480 engine into my CR250 and watch the "rule nazi's"go apeshit. Stupid. It truly does seem to be "different rules for different schools". No disrespect to you Bahnsy but your latest offering on this thread is just plain ridiculous and is far from being constructive or helpful.
Cheers,
K

[VMX247]

Roger Roger  DJracing ,
I get concerned about some attitudes(none in particular) who don't have any care and pride in preserving the era too well,thats all.Over and Out

ps have just read through again and understand also that if its on a bitsa bike at least it has been preserved and not in some chook shed as a perch,but ya gotta lovem 99% original though.

[Nathan S]

I have a replica RC450 which I've never had plans to ride, but I just might take it to a race meeting to see what would happen. I'm sure I'd get some amusement out of watching the eligibilty police have kittens at the thought of it hitting the track, WHICH IS WRONG. It is air cooled, twin shock , drum brake in a 1979 chassis.

In the other thread, everyone seemed to agree that drum brake forks from a non-Evo bike were OK when fitted to an Evo bike.
So why would an air-cooled motor from a non-Evo bike suddenly be a big drama?

In more general terms, we're never going to be able to faithfully recreate any specific era.
Look at vintage road racing, historic car racing, historic car rallying, etc etc - in every case, there are machines built far in excess of what anyone ever did/could do back in the day. If nothing else, tyres and brake pad materials are heaps better, and you're never going to stop that.

This happens for a number of reasons, but the two main ones are a desire to be as competitive as possible, and simple parts availability. The competitiveness side of things can be debated, but the parts availability thing is crucially important.
For example: Everyone keeps bringing up shock absorbers ("what about those brand-new, fully adjustable shocks!?"), but could you imagine the shit-fight that would occur if we mandated that all pre-75 bikes had to run shocks made before 1975??
One of the constant themes of the VMX rules is that there have been no restrictions on consumables (tyres, sprockets, handlebars, etc), and minimal restrictions on the semi-consumables (shocks, exhausts, etc).

If we now feel that those components have developed to a point that they're no-longer VMX-friendly, then that's fine... But if that's the case, we need to sit down and collectively decide what is and is-not acceptable. To just shoot from the hip and demand that our individual point of view is THE single correct point of view is going to get us nowhere (unless you consider forum bickering to be somewhere...).

[Quicksilver]

Reading through this thread in only assume a project I have collected the parts to build will also be illegal.  I was putting an RM465 engine into a spare 1980 PE250 frame I had. I was counting on Aircooled, twin shocks, drum brakes... Legal....  I gather it wont be.

[Tim754]

Hey now this is more like it!!! A shit fight over what is what,  Simple dump the name and class called "EVO" and start from scratch, using your Aircooled, ((Shit there goes me Suzuki 750cc Water Bottle engine..) Non linkage ( A swinging arm would be technically a linkage??) Drum brake (back to my Wattle Bottle cause I got a 4 leading shoe dual cable set up out of one here.)
COME ON sort this shit out will you, You have too have cut offs somewhere, And well if your machine unfortunately misses the cut ............. find others in the same boat and see what class you can all run in or submit a class to try out at a meeting.   
I have said before that if YOU think your machine stretches the eligibility rules for what ever class , IT MOST LIKELY DOES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Build your bikes to suit the existing era and rules, If you have to go to lengths and fit ultra late model bits and pieces for reasons like "I need this suspension cause the other was too rough etc" GO RACE A MODERN BIKE
                       F##K ME THIS IS OLDER ERA RACING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When will people start to comprehend this!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheers Tim754

[oldfart]

 Rule 18.7.11.1   evolution class shall be run as a national championship and can be independent of other classic  motorcross classes
       18.7.12.1   Bikes will be OEM
       18.7.12.2   Modifications converting later equipment to comply will not be allowed 
       18.7.12.3   ALL COMPONENTS  will be of the period the machine was manufactured 

                  a)   No linkage suspension
                  b)   No Disc brakes
                  c)    Air cooled  motors

                                                           Pretty much spells it all out to me

[bigk]

The rules Tim are STUPID when you can legally use 43mm forks & engine from an '81 YZ465 as it is an evo legal bike but not the 43mm forks & engine from an '82 CR480 becuase its a single shock bike. What is the difference? The parts being substituted are virtually identical. Most of us would agre there is no difference, but there are the few who beg to differ and seem to thrive on the conflict and cause a lot of undue stress. Once again this seems to only affect anyone who wants to build a big bore Honda, which is what this thread started out as. A big bore Honda EVO bike is in the "spirit of the era" as thats what the premier class was back then, 500cc world championship. If I had an '84 CR500 Husky evo legal bike and an RC450 replica Honda bike, which is at present not legal, it would make no difference to how fast I am or for most people. This is the point, it's not about cheating, it's about OLD MX BIKES and peoples tastes. There are a lot of '81 490 Maico's with '82 (single shock) reed cylinders fitted, but once again no one seems to care about that. I'll try to shut up now but for some reason this really gets me wound up, and I don't even want to race a Honda!  
K

[Quicksilver]

 
       18.7.12.3   ALL COMPONENTS  will be of the period the machine was manufactured 

               

So new shocks, pipes and PBLs are out then.   But no their not.

[Husky500evo]

This bike is legal by our current evo class rules as it meets all the requirements . It is all O.E.M '79 Honda with no later model parts & was raced by Graham Noyce in '91 at a British twinshock meeting , when this picture was taken.

[magoo]

Ah yes, but if you built a replica of it the rule Nazis would have your balls for garters. You can copy a HL but not an RC. Go figure. You got me bigk 100%.

[Tim754]

OK build one (or lots) and use it (or them), maybe just maybe others will see your way. Seems you have some proof there of your plight/position. Better even you source out and buy an original one like in the piccy.
So what would be a set of criteria for this class that would be acceptable to the largest amount of current and  also to future participants?? The overall thing being this is an era of racing that finished over twenty years ago so the machines should be original or fair and clear representations of what you could buy or build* at that time. Did anyone build and use a big bore Honda like the 450/480/500?   The photo shown may be presentable proof of the OEM bit, or was that a private special ? Still you say it is 1979. 

  Viper meeting at Ravenswood a couple of week ago had a lot of pleased smiles, but some lowish grids. Getting this sort of basic "I wanna run this bike" stuff cleared up now will help bring those big entrant numbers back again.
 
Did anyone build or manufacture after market frames to suit the big Honda Two or fourstrokes of the time?