Bored at work and thinking VMX

[Husky500evo]

I was going to bring up this same suggestion as DJ's in the rules adjustment thread , but thought that I would be howled down as a heretic. Graham Noyce won the '79 World 500 MX title on a twin shock Honda , so I believe that you should be able to build a replica of this bike & it should be legal in evo class . The same  should apply to Kawasakis , as the last open class twin shock mx bike was the '79 SR400 works bike . If the bike existed , you should be able to race a replica of it . Isn't that what all the HL 500s running around are supposed to be ? I do think though that the frame should be one originally designed with twin shocks , so as to avoid creations like the Dutch twinshock class bikes & the '82 CR480RC Honda with the twin shocks fitted that was racing at Crawford river a few years ago .

[bigk]

You can fit a 450 cylinder onto a 250 bottom end, but that in itself is a huge job let alone getting the cases to take a longer stroke crankshaft. The crankshaft..... now there's another story altogether. Do it if you want to have a big big dollar engine with tolerances so close that with one big end failure and you would have to start all over again. I only did it to make my RC visually as authentic as I possibly could. Still, this bike is not a legal evo bike as the cylinder came from a single shock bike. It would be much easier to do the 480 engine/250RZ/RA thing. You would have to turn the 480 cylinder to a side port if you want to use an RZ chasis. I would have built one as a racer by now except for the eligibility nazi's down here. Flogging a dead horse here, but it would be legal to fit an '84 Husky CR500 motor, YZ465 43mm forks & twin leading shoe front brake to an RZ and be legal, although be it no longer a Honda, but illegal to use a CR480 engine, 43mm forks & twin leading shoe front brake. Go figure. It's all just semantics and causes unneccessary stress which will only drive people away from the sport. I say build what you want as long as it's air cooled, drum brake & no linkage. It really should be that simple. I shall now step down from the soapbox.
Cheers,
K

[magoo]

We've got a 1980 CR250RA fitted with a Mugen powered 1982 CR480RB motor which is nearly finished. If you're going to Conondale DJ I might be able to sneak you a look. I agree with BigK about the evo rules, if you can build a HL replica, why not an RC or SR or OW replica?

[Maico31]

I tend to agree, if it's air cooled, twin shocked and drum braked then let them run it as long as the frame and suspension is from an evo bike. It still won't be any better than a 490 Maico or well set up YZ465 and it'll add some colour to the open evo class.

[evo550]

Honda do have an open class evo bike, it's called an xl500s, I know it's slow, heavy,poorly suspended and evil handling........but what Honda's aren't?

[Nathan S]

If the bike existed , you should be able to race a replica of it . Isn't that what all the HL 500s running around are supposed to be ?

I think I agree.
If you are allowed to use genuine works parts (or replicas), then what of the later production parts that are replicas of the works parts?

I know I'm moving away from DJ's question, but look at a 1977 version of the Yamaha OW27 - presumably, I could fabricate a replica OW alloy swing arm for my production YZ125D and everyone would be happy for it to  be used on a pre-78 race bike.
But if I fitted a swing arm from a YZ125F - which looks just like the older OW27 part - then I'd be howled down as a dirty cheat...

It seems that we all think it's OK to use a "new replica", while a 30 year old replica is not OK?? 

I'm sure there are many, many more examples out there.

[Phil]

 We can't reinvent history. Honda didn't have an open classer that legally fits into the rules. Get over it and race 250 or move to another brand. With the HL comparison, anybody could buy an HL back in 77-78 but RC Hondas were never to my knowledge available to the public. In any case, the CR450/480 is a very different engine to the RC.

The Geoff Holmes legacy lives on.

[TM BILL]

We've got a 1980 CR250RA fitted with a Mugen powered 1982 CR480RB motor which is nearly finished. If you're going to Conondale DJ I might be able to sneak you a look. I agree with BigK about the evo rules, if you can build a HL replica, why not an RC or SR or OW replica?

There is a very cool article on sucha bike in the (dare i say it  ) Classic dirt bike magazine issue # 2
Some Pom has built 2 Graham Noyce replicas using 1980 CR 250RA rollers , fitted with a CR 480 motor and A CR 450 motor .

Very cool looking bikes , i think its a great concept .
As far as rules go Personally if you can show that such a bike was available Factory works bike or home built special within the era that the class you wish to race it wheres the problem.

Factory bikes were always a special part of our sport and the technology was generally a year or two ahead of the production bikes. 

Most of us wished we owned one in the day , so should you now have the skills , finances /resources to build a replica or even own an original i believe you should be able to race it in the era it was raced in the day.

So does DJs Nogouchi fit into pre 75 as a factory special   

[jimg1au]

rules inplace are the ones we have to stick with
i have have a home built dirt track bike with a 1940 350 art senior ariel motor and box.plunger bsa bantam forks and stearing head.1950s ariel swing arm rear end.1950s speedway jap fuel tank home built diamond.my brother built it from bits hanging around in the shed in 1968.this bike was racing in nsw dirt track meetings befor 1970 but i cant ride in pre70 as it looks like a slider.so the bike has to go in races with new laydown long track jawas,slider race only.but i am still fighting this one.


.

[bigk]

The problem lies TM Bill, with a few anal retentive people who are sticklers for rules, which are way overly restrictive in my opinion. Unfortunatley these seem to be the people who make the rules or are involved in policing the rules. Apparantley, and this is only heresay, that here in Victoria there is a faction that even wants to outlaw a 1984 Husqvarna CR/XC 500 from the evolution class because they deem it to be a pre '85 bike even though they are air cooled, non linkage and drum brake! They don't think it is fair to race this bike against a 1980 RM400T for example, which is Suzuki's last evo legal bike. This is the kind of frivolous crap which will find it's way into all classes as they go forward and will drive more people away from the sport rather than bring people into it. Who wants to have stress over their bike at a race meeting? The blokes who want to cheat will find a way to do it no matter what and won't be the blokes getting the rough end of the stick as they will do it covertly. Building a big bore evo bike and presenting it for everyone to see is not cheating, just someone expressing their passion for Honda VMX bikes. The evo class just seems to be the big issue at the moment and the issues are generally stupid, eg: I can use a set of YSS piggy back shocks with 60 clicks of adjustments which were made last week, but can't use a 25 year old 480cc motor in my Honda.  The evo rules should be simple: air cooled, non linkage, drum brake. The reason most of us do this is not for the $2.00 trophy at the end of the year, but for fun and relaxation away from the daily grind of work & general living stress. The current trend of having to prove your bike is legal or defending a protest from someone who you could probably beat no matter what you were riding is not in "the spirit" of VMX racing in my opinion. Air cooled, drum brake, no linkage (simple & sweet) = evolution fun. Build it , bring it race it.
Cheers,
K

[YSS]

Big K why ride on the back of the piggyback?  Shocks are classed as consumables like rims , grips, pegs, exhaust etc. Unless the rules stipulate 60 clicks adjustment  is to much , people will opt for it.    So far I have not seen anybody reaching down to the adjusters while racing  . If someone wants non adjustable shocks , they can have them also. But also  bear in mind adjusters ( even high low speed by Fox ) where around since the Konis.
There will always be sour grapes from somewhere, especially when you beat them.
What I did in the end , I just parked all my bikes and want waist a Dollar on a licence , just to argue with some winging professor at the racetrack.
What ever you do , in the end you still turn that throttle and use your brain to win  And if you are not into winnig , why race ?  Save your money and go trail riding , restoring or whatever you enjoy.  My only joyfull outing on a VMX bike is now Classic Dirt for that simple reason. " If I spend all that money , I want some classic fun and no hazzles"

[bigk]

No disrespect to you or your shocks Walter, just an example of how silly the rules are IN MY OPINION, and MY OPINION sees a set of new adjustable shocks having more of an advantage than a big bore engine, racing against other big bore engines. I personally don't care what shocks or forks are on a bike UNTIL someone with a pair of your adjustable 1 week old shocks, and modern tapered handle bars on his legal by the rules evo bike, sooks about me with my 25 year old 480 motor from a single shock bike not being legal to race. This is just an example and has not actually happened, but is the only reason I have NOT built a big bore EVO Honda to race coz I just know it would happen and I do not want the stress. I have however built a 360 Honda using a standard cylinder & head and could use it as a cheat bike if I chose, to as it is visually the same as a standard 250. But in "the Spirit" of VMX racing we will race it in the over 300cc class. We've gotten off the original topic here so I still say you should be able to build your big bore Honda bike and race it in the evo class, after all it fits the basic rules of air cooled, no linkage, drum brake. I have no desire to do it other than fact to have another different bike on the track for people to see. I am more than happy riding my Husky big bore evo bike, but have been challenged about it having a twin leading shoe front brake on it even though according to the rules it's legal as it's from an '83 air cooled, non linkage, drum brake Husky XC500. See how petty some people are? I personally can't ride for shit and only do it for the fun of racing with my mates, but if the bullshit continues as it is, what fun will it be? When I look at a bike, I usually marvel at the extent some one has gone to to present their pride & joy and the obvious passion involved. I never look at a bike scrutinising what is "legal" or not and whether they are going to beat me on an "illegal" bike, if they beat me , they beat me because they can ride better than me. I can see this debate will continue to go nowhere and am getting a headache, so I won't say anymore on the subject, suffice to say it should be simple as AIR COOLED, NON LINKAGE, DRUM BRAKE! Forget the other BS.
Cheers,
K

[Nathan S]

You know, I've been thinking about this, and I reckon we're all taking it far too seriously... And by 'it', I mean the whole rules/eligibility thing, not just DJ's question...

At Crawford River, I saw a bike that was clearly illegal for the class it was racing in - and I'm not talking about trivial shit like bolted vs riveted sprockets, I'm talking about simple, obvious and significant stuff like being way over capacity for the class...

And you know what?

Nobody gives a shit.

At first, I was offended by the blatant rule bending, but then I looked at the other bike the bloke had with him, and I figured that he was just trying to maximise his rides. He was not a podium threat (at least not on the 'cheater' bike) and he was out there enjoying himself among riders on otherwise similar machinery.

What would be gained by kicking up a fuss? Nuthin'!
What would be lost by kicking up a fuss? Heaps.
And I think that most people take a similar view.

So here we are on the forum, tying ourselves in knots over trivial stuff, while out in the real world we all ignore the letter of the law and go with what feels right.

[BAHNZY]

Where do you stop?
Why not just buy a YZ465, a late model WR500 and an Ohlins aftermarket PDS shock that was never fitted OE. Then have someone build you a frame that has the dimensions and angles of a late model motocrosser. Bolt the WR engine into the frame, set the 465 front end up, or if you have the $ buy a 44mm FOX front end, weld a couple of mounts for the PDS shock and you have an air cooled, drum brake non linkage EVO racer.

[VMX247]

You know, I've been thinking about this, and I reckon we're all taking it far too seriously... And by 'it', I mean the whole rules/eligibility thing, not just DJ's question...

At Crawford River, I saw a bike that was clearly illegal for the class it was racing in - and I'm not talking about trivial shit like bolted vs riveted sprockets, I'm talking about simple, obvious and significant stuff like being way over capacity for the class...

And you know what?

Nobody gives a shit.

At first, I was offended by the blatant rule bending, but then I looked at the other bike the bloke had with him, and I figured that he was just trying to maximise his rides. He was not a podium threat (at least not on the 'cheater' bike) and he was out there enjoying himself among riders on otherwise similar machinery.

What would be gained by kicking up a fuss? Nuthin'!
What would be lost by kicking up a fuss? Heaps.
And I think that most people take a similar view.

So here we are on the forum, tying ourselves in knots over trivial stuff, while out in the real world we all ignore the letter of the law and go with what feels right.

Nothing personal NathanS
I know very little about engines of vmx bikes ,but this is blantant disregard for preserving an era of VINTAGE MOTO CROSS is big time wrong.
Its a bit like cooking a fruit cake with no f,,,,,,g fruit in it.
Some people just don't get it.
Its about saving the bike that it was in the past..How can VMX bikes ever survive when people have a slack attitude towards what goes in the frame etc and ends up being a bittsa..please explain.