What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?

[Momus]

Has anyone (besides me) taken the time to ask MA about the keihin flat slides?  Or do we just talk around in circles.

It seems MA have already given their approval to Keihin flat slide carbies.

Apparently thusly equipped pre 85 bikes have raced at the National level for years.

Perhaps you need to roll out the MA administrative regulations that deal with misconduct by eligibility scrutineers.

 

[Momus]

Surely a competitor could lodge a protest over a competitor's machine eligibility at any time during the meeting? Otherwise you could take a legal bike through scrutiny, and then change it...

I finished 4th in the pre 75 unlimited at the '92 Daigle nats behind a very well known racer on an LTR Maico who removed his rear travel limiters for each heat. I wanted to lodge a protest but was howled down by everyone, as I was just a ring-in dirt tracker and this wanker was a big name. A punch-up nearly ensued in the pits but I was a little outnumbered. The whole deal left me disillusioned for a long time, just because of a lowlife cheat. Just saying....

? Someone commenting here?

[Nathan S]

If the bike has passed eligibility scrutineering then it is deemed eligible.  The action is eligibility scrutineering so you have thirty minutes after that action stops to protest.

However you could protest if you think you can prove the machine has been changed. 

A Steward can also not accept a protest if they think there is no grounds to protest on.

I know you like to be right Nathan but I have asked several level four officials on this subject and I am giving my opinion based on that.

....

Bit distracted right now, but that seems a bit odd: If riders have the right to protest other bikes, then they must also be given the opportunity to inspect those bikes and be able to lodge a protest in the relevant time frame.

If the bike is raced in an ineligible state, then it shouldn't matter whether it was incorrectly passed for scrutiny or changed later.

And yes, I do like being right. Its way more fun than being wrong.



 

[Nathan S]

It seems MA have already given their approval to Keihin flat slide carbies.

Apparently thusly equipped pre 85 bikes have raced at the National level for years.

An omission or error in the past does not constitute approval.

[Momus]

As far as I am aware, for National titles, bikes are impounded for 30 min after a race to allow for protests.  Maybe for vmx it might just be the first 4 bikes, which makes good sense to me.

Yes you are right they are impounded for possible protests.  But in my opinion any protest on eligibility would have to be that the machine has been changed from what passed scrutineering.  Other possible protests could be engine size or fuel etc.  Eligibility Scrutineering is conducted at scrutineering so any protest should be within 30 minutes from the close of scrutineering.

GCR 7.2.1.2.c.ii)

In other motorsport the first three in a Championship race would be re-examined for eligibility while in parc ferme.

It should up to the organisers/governing body who stipulate the rules to enforce them on machine legality.

[Momus]

As far as I am aware, for National titles, bikes are impounded for 30 min after a race to allow for protests.  Maybe for vmx it might just be the first 4 bikes, which makes good sense to me.

Yes you are right they are impounded for possible protests.  But in my opinion any protest on eligibility would have to be that the machine has been changed from what passed scrutineering.  Other possible protests could be engine size or fuel etc.  Eligibility Scrutineering is conducted at scrutineering so any protest should be within 30 minutes from the close of scrutineering.

GCR 7.2.1.2.c.ii)

Following logically from this then, a protest against a Pre85 Keihin flatslide equipped bike that has passed scrutineering is in effect a protest against the official, the scrutineer, for failing to apply an MA eligibility rule, not a protest against a competitor for presenting an illegal machine.

In that case it is hard to see how the rider could be penalised.

[KTM47]

Surely a competitor could lodge a protest over a competitor's machine eligibility at any time during the meeting? Otherwise you could take a legal bike through scrutiny, and then change it...

I finished 4th in the pre 75 unlimited at the '92 Daigle nats behind a very well known racer on an LTR Maico who removed his rear travel limiters for each heat. I wanted to lodge a protest but was howled down by everyone, as I was just a ring-in dirt tracker and this wanker was a big name. A punch-up nearly ensued in the pits but I was a little outnumbered. The whole deal left me disillusioned for a long time, just because of a lowlife cheat. Just saying....

Never be afraid to stand up for your rights and if need be protest.  I wasn't there so don't know all the circumstances, but maybe the biggest mistake you made was letting others know you might protest.  Maybe a quite word to a key official so they can check the bike before or after the race.

Again I know circumstance are not always straight forward, but there is a case where a bike was possibly changed after eligibility scrutineering.

[KTM47]

Has anyone (besides me) taken the time to ask MA about the keihin flat slides?  Or do we just talk around in circles.

It seems MA have already given their approval to Keihin flat slide carbies.

Apparently thusly equipped pre 85 bikes have raced at the National level for years.

Perhaps you need to roll out the MA administrative regulations that deal with misconduct by eligibility scrutineers.

I have said it once and I will say it again.  Don't take what MAY have happened at previous Championships as acceptance that it COULD  happen again.  For a start you would need to prove it did happen.

Again this is just my opinion.

[KTM47]

As far as I am aware, for National titles, bikes are impounded for 30 min after a race to allow for protests.  Maybe for vmx it might just be the first 4 bikes, which makes good sense to me.

Yes you are right they are impounded for possible protests.  But in my opinion any protest on eligibility would have to be that the machine has been changed from what passed scrutineering.  Other possible protests could be engine size or fuel etc.  Eligibility Scrutineering is conducted at scrutineering so any protest should be within 30 minutes from the close of scrutineering.

GCR 7.2.1.2.c.ii)

Following logically from this then, a protest against a Pre85 Keihin flatslide equipped bike that has passed scrutineering is in effect a protest against the official, the scrutineer, for failing to apply an MA eligibility rule, not a protest against a competitor for presenting an illegal machine.

In that case it is hard to see how the rider could be penalised.

Yes that is a good point and is a reason why the bike shouldn't be let through in the first place.

[KTM47]

If the bike has passed eligibility scrutineering then it is deemed eligible.  The action is eligibility scrutineering so you have thirty minutes after that action stops to protest.

However you could protest if you think you can prove the machine has been changed. 

A Steward can also not accept a protest if they think there is no grounds to protest on.

I know you like to be right Nathan but I have asked several level four officials on this subject and I am giving my opinion based on that.

....

Bit distracted right now, but that seems a bit odd: If riders have the right to protest other bikes, then they must also be given the opportunity to inspect those bikes and be able to lodge a protest in the relevant time frame.  So you think you have to right to walk around the pits and check other peoples bikes out.  Good luck with that (Ted don't hit him)

If the bike is raced in an ineligible state, then it shouldn't matter whether it was incorrectly passed for scrutiny or changed later.  If a bike has passed eligibility scrutineering then it is eligible.  So you should protest the E Scrutineer

And yes, I do like being right. Its way more fun than being wrong.

I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken

[Freakshow]

Question or protest a bike at any time, just because its been through the line up doesnt means its got a cloak of protection over it...
the line up is the first pass, and is normally a place to pick the obvious anomaly or class entry issues , but it can be questioned at any time on the line, in the pits, on the finish line, our in a formal protest with Fee for a determination.

If your cheating its a matter of when and hopefully it will get picked up before the places are made offical.

[Nathan S]

So you think you have to right to walk around the pits and check other peoples bikes out. 

That was pretty much my point:
If you have to 'catch' the bikes while they're being scrutineered or immediately afterward, then it basically makes it impossible for a competitor to lodge a protest on eligibility.
Seems like a flawed system to me.

Illegal bike is illegal all meeting - as Freaky says, being scrutineered doesn't automatically make it invincible...

[Nathan S]

Following logically from this then, a protest against a Pre85 Keihin flatslide equipped bike that has passed scrutineering is in effect a protest against the official, the scrutineer, for failing to apply an MA eligibility rule, not a protest against a competitor for presenting an illegal machine.

Well put - I wanted to say this but couldn't work out how to word it.

I'm inclined to go with Freaky's take on it, largely because it is both fair and workable.

[bigk]

Hmmm, perhaps I'm a tad naïve on this point then. Are there really blatant cheats out there? My arguments are based on common sense applications with some components & in no way do I endorse any form of actual cheating. In all my years of VMX I've not come across a blatant cheat. I've never been to national meeting though as I simply refuse to de-engineer my 1977 Husky backwards from how it was sold in 1977 to comply with the suspension limits.
Hell, I used to be shit at motocross until I discovered I could buy trophies!
K

[Nathan S]

There's a few recorded cases of blatant cheating, a few stories like Yamaico's, and a lot of 'grey area' ones where the rider may have genuinely not known that their bike didn't meet the rules (or may have been playing dumb), and even more where the difference was trivial so that everyone ignored it.

I share your concern about the non-riding boffins in white coats and spectacles picking on irrelevant "problems" - nobody wants that.

But the line has to be drawn somewhere.