A proposed new way to score races

[Graeme M]

This is an interesting one. I received this proposal the other day from a forum regular who was thinking about how to encourage a more level playing field at the races. When I first looked at it I thought "nah..."  But on second thoughts, it does have merit. I actually like it, a lot.

The idea is that a weighting is applied based on rider age/bike age and actual position at the end of the race. Thus, the older the bike/rider combo, the more the elapsed time is offset (I think this is only going to be possible with transponders in use).
 
This means that a 20 year old bloke on a 1984 bike will get more of a 'handicap' than a 50 year old on the same bike. At the end of the day, all times are totted up and the offset applied. Now, here's where it gets interesting. The top 3 across the line (ie the fastest 3 on the day in that class) still get their points/awards as per normal. BUT, a second series of awards are then issued to the corrected times and hence placegetters. The idea is to try to 'level' the playing field somewhat.

Proposal

* Retain the current 1,2,3 fastest place getters across the line - no change, recognized & awarded as current
* Include a handicap award for 1,2,3 on handicap corrected time
* Handicap is established by rider age (as of 1st Jan per year) + bike age (model year) = handicap year number

Example - rider 36 years on a 40 year old bike = 76 / 52 year old on a 44 year odl bike = 96. Handicap number is applied to all results as they are run

You can run "all in" races without the need for separate aged events (numbers permitting). This will allow clubs to fit their race programs into the one day
A 21 year old may therefore choose an older bike to compete with an older guy who might choose a newer bike to close their handicap gaps.

Benefits

* This will encourage more people/punters to compete/participate as they have every chance to actually win something
* This will create a more level playing/selling field market & demand for gap year bikes (e.g. a 70 v 74 or a 75 v 77 in pre 78 etc)
* People are more likely to stay after events for the presentations because nobody will know if they have won a prize until then
* Fast guys will still flog it against each other for the chequered flag glory (as they should) but they also still have a chance to get handicap awards as well
* Punters will ride knowing they can actually win something & have a real chance if they ride to the best of their ability especially when you introduce unknown factors such as weather, track conditions, mechanical failures, falls etc....

Here it is in practice. The following are the results for the Evo Over 250cc class at the Aussie champs. The first shows results as per the current scoring system, the second is as per the proposed system.






So, over to you all. Vote in the poll above, or offer up your thoughts below.

[bigk]

Certainly has merit and Steve has stated it works well in the sailing fraternity. Good to see some lateral thinking.
Cheers,
K

[the stig]

      That seems simular to how they Score club Yacht racing with different classes of yacht's
      there is a system out that calculates all the times and handycaps at the push of a button
      at the finish of a Race
      I think its called a Yacht master system..
       Would be great for Classic or Vintage Racing  as it would sort of be like a yard stick for
      for all ages and bike sizes as in cc
      Its Got Merit

      The Stig

[supersenior 50]

Yes, I've been thinking along similar lines. I'm glad someone has taken the time to think this through. The Alice Springs Masters Games had a similar system.
In sailing its called a Yardstick, but doesnt take age of crew into account.
The beauty of it is a host club could introduce it as a supplementary result to the outright results without any rule additions in the MoMs.
Next event I'm involved in organising I'd like to try it. Could the instigator please PM me, I'd like to discuss it further.

[Nathan S]

I like the principle, but only on the condition that the current place getters are appropriately rewarded.

[Tahitian_Red]

Are you using the  Kobayashi Maru Algorithm? 

[KTM47]

There is some merit in something like this however it can't happen now until the 2016 rule book.  Currently we do have age groups in EVO (in Post Classic) and Pre 75 (in Classic) as well as a separate races for the overall Championship.  Although the results on the Mylaps website don't show this for the Aust Post Classic Champs or the Qld Classic and Post Classic Champs.

There is no point having a different system if the people doing the work can't handle it.  Please note the results for age groups can be shown correctly but for whatever reason they aren't.

Personally I have previously put a view forward that the older classes Pre 60, Pre 65 & Pre 70 should have a timed handicap system that is worked out by adding the age of the rider and bike together.  Highest number starts 1st etc.  What 65 plus year old wants to race against a 30 to 40 plus year old who may not have even been born when the bike was new.

There is nothing wrong with the current age groups as well as a combined overall, it just has to be given a reasonable chance to succeed.  Also the minimum number to constitute a Championship class needs to be dropped to maybe 6 instead of 10.  The groups for EVO also don't need to be changed to Pre 85.  The EVO classes had the highest entry numbers of all the classes at PCMXC at Toowoomba.

Of course the main thing here is K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid)

Kevin

[KTM47]

Please note any system that involves someone (or more people) working out a handicap or dare I say it grading, is open to abuse.

Also the system proposed still only awards three extra riders.  Age groups recognises 5 age groups in each capacity class.

I believe a handicap race as I propose is more interesting for spectators, because the it is all settled on the track.

Handicaps worked out after the race don't really mean a lot.  How many people remember who won the Sydney to Hobart on handicap.  The yacht which gets line honours is remembered more (by the general public).

Kevin

[number8]

Its a issue that should be addressed what Kevin proposes by way of age groups would be the simplest method the "Sailing" method sounds a bit confusing to the non sailor,

#8

[Graeme M]

Stig
program used for dinghy racing at club level is called TopYacht & yes, it is automatically done once the finishing times go in with the push of a button

Nathan S
current place getters (first 3 finishers) are still rewarded, recognized & unchanged. this is in addition to the existing system to encourage more punter participation, not to replace anything

KTM 47
on average there are ~ 100 boats that compete in the Sydney to Hobart & usually 3 - 5 (max) who can win on line honours. there have been several different handicapping systems used over the 69 year race history but all of them are structured to level out the competitors so every competitor has a theoretical chance to win on handicap overall & within their own divisions. no need to go into the complexity of how those systems work other than to say without handicapping, the event would attract ~ 10 boats & subsequently die a very quick death.

number 8
there is no direct reference to the systems used in sailing, horse racing &/or any other sports that also use handicapping. no need to replicate any other system, vmx can just use the idea of combined rider/bike ages, try it & if succesful good, if not then nothing lost as the current results system stays in place. proof would be in the pudding 

[HeavenVMX]

Graeme that is a very interesting concept it is just that I can not see how you arrived at the final times
Eg. Dean Burt - combined age 77, actual elapsed time is 728sec, corrected time is 946sec.
How does the 77 relate to the 728 to arrive at the 946?

Must be simple but I am missing it.

Heaven used a compass draw arrangement at out Gloucester TT meeting but it allows riders to self grade into a series of finals.

Would be keen to fully understand this system.

[supersenior 50]

With you Graeme, worth a try. Sailing is not really a valid comparason, in that firstly it doesn't consider age of crew, secondly the VYC Yardstick is based on known relative class performance, and most big offshore events system is based on yacht measurements applied to a complicated formula. The other is an arbitary handicap based on the individuals performance. I tried this for fun at the Qld Classic/Post Classic  Championships, but while it was fun, I stuffed up which made the result iffy to say the least.
Definitely going to give it a try.

[Digga]

Graeme that is a very interesting concept it is just that I can not see how you arrived at the final times
Eg. Dean Burt - combined age 77, actual elapsed time is 728sec, corrected time is 946sec.
How does the 77 relate to the 728 to arrive at the 946?

728 secs (riders actual time) / 77 (rider & bike age combo) x 100 = 946 secs (corrected time)

[HeavenVMX]

Do'oH new it would be simple 

[Digga]

LOL, all you need is an eleven year old close by who is reasonable at maths, they can work anything out if they are not glued to the TV