Author Topic: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )  (Read 11374 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TM BILL

  • Guest
Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« on: August 10, 2013, 08:39:27 am »
I have taken Walters quote from the Classic nats cancellation thread , i did not want to hijack that thread so have started this one .

This cancellation might highlight the need in structural changes. As long as clubs get strangled with huge demands of fees for the old boys club in Melbourne and have to bow to senseless imposed rules , who wants to put up their hand  .Look at NewZealand there is your answer ;)

IMHO that could well be a part of the problem  ::) however FWIW its not all beer and skittles in NZ either  ;)

A couple of things to remember when comparing though is that there are probably more active VMXers in Qld alone than there are in the whole of NZ .
While NZ is a very small country it is made up of 2 main islands and the cost of taking a van on the ferry for the 3 hr crossing return cost more than a flight with all riding gear and extras to the east coast of Australia .

I think that both countries could learn from each other, only my opinion but the NZ template is flawed in that there is no national guidelines or structure , each organising body clubs or individual can make up the classes as they choose and this can lead to confusion if a person travels to an event only to be told you have to ride up a class . On the upside no VMX events are run under the national motorcycle sport body ( motorcycling NZ ) in fact they are avoided like Leppers and any association with them is seen as a negative and costly exercise .

What we refer to as our nationals could be questioned as they are not sanctioned by anyone oother than the organisers and the participents , but as there is no governing body for VMX in NZ then they are what they are .

On the upside ( a few forum members have sampled this ) anybody from anywhere in the world can rock up to any VMX event in NZ , sign an indemnity waiver borrow a bike and come racing . No paperwork nessercery ( other than the indemnity ) no cost other than entry fee, no club memberships , no licence and no invisable fat cats with their hands out  for money .

Any individual or group can run an event at a moments notice and again we dont need anyones consent other than the landowners .

I have been fortunate to race VMX in Australia on a number of occasions and have attended 6 of the 9 CD events , racing over there has been made possibly by the generosity of Aussie VMXers many of who i now consider my good friends . Many other Kiwis have experienced the same hospitality and generosity and we are happy to reciprocate when possible .
Recently due to the economic downturn the travelling has stopped a bit , while airfares have increased marginally it is the admin cost of racing in Australia that kills it for me . Due to the MA tie up we have to join MNZ ( see above ) and then purchase additional cover approx $350.00 per event before we can even enter . Two of us were booked to ride the CC last year but an 11th hr admin experience with MA put paid to that , pity as Connondale is my favorite track anywhere and the CC is a kick arse event .

Again in my experience MNZ as bad as they are, look like the Arc angel Gabriel when compared to MA . The recent 11th hour screwing of the QVMX clubs Connondale classic event highlights what a bunch of $%#%^&*$#@%S MA is and that they do nothing for the VMX movment except take take take . A lesser club may have had to pull the pin on what is a fantastic event all in the name of GREED and beuracracy.

VMX in NZ could learn from VMX in Aus by way of the classes you run and if you go to an event anywhere in Aussie you know that the rules /classes will be uniformed . Also in the past at national and bigger events you get bigger numbers in all classes making for better racing .

Probably not possible for reasons beyond me , but wouldn't a joint governing body for the two countries ( only for VMX / Vinduro ) with only rules that pertain to VMX ( not obscure general rules put in for the many other disaplines ) a VMX licence only for events both sides of the ditch and any all profits tipped back into VMX events and promotion .

I guarantee we could run a nationals this side of the water on a golf course type track to suit all from pre 60 to pre 90 and sidecars of all eras , all you gotta do is show up  :)

Worldwide we are a small minority of a minority sport ( offroad motorcycling ) would be nice if we could unite in our part of the world and play together  ;)

« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 09:05:19 am by TM bill »

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2013, 09:26:25 am »
Following your lead Bill, in not wanting to hijack the Classic Champs thread (although I kinda did, sorry ;-) ), I posted this .....

It appears that there is plenty of support in Qld for events but stuffed if I'm travelling up there on a regular basis!  I feel a National Championship, to be fair, should be run over two events at opposite ends of the Nation (be it Qld & Vic or WA & NSW), yeh I know, if we can't run one event how the hell are we going to run two  ;-)

I am sick to death of MA & MV (can't discuss other state bodies, although things look good in Qld) slowly killing motorcycle sport in this country!  I see the thousands that flock to AFL or V8 Supercars, our sport has just not been managed correctly.

I think we need to go back to a post of mine from a couple of weeks ago where I brought up the subject of the AASA motorsport controlling body which is basically Benalla Auto Club (Winton Raceway), the Australian Roadrace Championship, 'Formula Extreme' is run under the AASA banner and Terry Oneil who runs the Championship gets television broadcasting for all rounds & classes.  The MA Roadrace Championship doesn't get air-time!!!

I know the guys at the Winton (Vic) Motocross Club (run under AASA) welcome vintage MX riders/racers, they would prepare their track to suit what ever we wanted, their track is right next to a camp-ground with permenant toilet/showers, which is also right next to Winton roadrace circuit.  The Winton Club has quite a few VMX riders already.

I have been given a name & number of a chap at Benalla Auto Club to speak to regarding MA clubs switching over to AASA, it is Adam on 03 5766 4235.  I suggest that vintage mx club Committee members get onto this guy and make things happen.

As President of Mitchell Recreational Motorcycle Club, I have been speaking to a guy called Heath, who is the President of Winton MX Club, he has welcomed our rec club members to their monthly mx ride days and he has said that he will do what ever it takes to make VMX riders happy there.

THE TIME FOR COMPLAINING & BITCHING IS OVER, THOSE THAT CARE ABOUT THE SPORT, LET'S MAKE IT HAPPEN !!!!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 09:52:33 am by John Orchard »
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline Graeme M

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3066
  • Canberra, Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 09:45:15 am »
Perhaps it is time for clubs to recognise what's actually involved in running a national title? The days of knocking out a track in the backyard and letting everyone enter on the day are over. With the effort to present a reasonably professional looking event getting more all the time, plus the huge over burden in administration and bureaucracy, it's really got to be seen as a BIG job.

To my mind, any club that takes on a national title, even in a field so peripheral as VMX, needs to start a LONG way out. At least a year ahead. Find out EVERYTHING that has to be covered, and dig some more. Dot all the i's, cross all the t's, and check all the boxes.

And promote the thing!! For at least 12 months. There are so many competing interests and peoples time and money are limited.

Offline VMX247

  • Megastar
  • *******
  • Posts: 8766
  • Western Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 10:00:32 am »
true Graeme,
perhaps also give more support within your sport,if you truely want it to continue !.
Best is in the West !!

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 10:02:10 am »
Graeme I don't think any of the current clubs running events (or attempting to) need to recognize what's involved in running a meeting, they've all done it before.  The added costs & regulations placed on them by the controlling body of the sport is what is making it harder.

There has always been a need for toilets, water-truck, flag marshalls, first-aid, canteen, commentator, start-gate and other such things, so there is nothing new there.

There is no reason why we can't "knock up a track in the backyard" and call it a National Championship; it's not like every man and his dog will do it.

I will speak to Winton (Vic) MX Club and see if they're up for running a National event later in the year, I will assist them, AND I will ask others (all you guys) to assist also.  Let's see how that goes?
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline Viper65

  • C-Grade
  • **
  • Posts: 123
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2013, 10:17:32 am »
GO Johnny GO GO GO!

And Scooter News will promote it to our 800 or so readers, so let us know when it's ready!
Suzuki RM370B, RM400C, RM400N, RM250D, RM250K, PE250 (82), KTM 250GS (81), KTM350GS (88), XR600 x 2, RMZ450 x 2 (07 and 012), KTM250 EXC, Gas Gas 125 (08), Gas Gas 250 (10) Trials & TTR125 and XR80 (82)
Author of Scooter News

Offline scottm

  • B-Grade
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 10:19:31 am »
Why do you have to run events under the ma banner , start your own affiliation and make it basic , no wonder vinduros are popular ,all this bulls%$# in the vmx scene
pre 84 thank you very much

Offline bazza

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2013, 10:23:55 am »
Interesting.Non vmx but my son and his mates 3 months ago over a beer thought there are no 2 stroke champs in NZ,lets run one. Went and saw the farmer,put out the entry forms for 3 months time,promoted,had a web site where you can enter to win a free bike to ride and its all go. Toilets, ambulance,flag marshalls organised.
Once you go black  you will never go back - allblacks
Maico - B44 -1976 CR250- 66 Mustang YZF450,RM250
Embrace patina

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2013, 10:29:23 am »
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that MA treats the CMXNS, PCMXNS and CDTNs as much "bigger" events than they actually are - particularly in terms of them being cash cows for MA, and in terms of the risk they represent.

Only the very fastest guys at the VMX Nats are pushing harder than the the fastest guys at a typical modern club MX, and the average level of commitment at the Nats is lower than at the average club day.

To compare the VMX/DT Nats with historic road racing or modern MX or even modern DT shows the gulf.
Anecdotally, the injuries I'm aware of support this.
If MA won't come to the party and reduce some of the costs/requirements to a more appropriate level, then perhaps our "National Title" should be run as Open events? It would mean losing formal recognition, but (IMHO) that is a small price to pay compared to having three of the four scheduled events cancelled in two years...
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

TM BILL

  • Guest
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2013, 10:34:28 am »
Interesting.Non vmx but my son and his mates 3 months ago over a beer thought there are no 2 stroke champs in NZ,lets run one. Went and saw the farmer,put out the entry forms for 3 months time,promoted,had a web site where you can enter to win a free bike to ride and its all go. Toilets, ambulance,flag marshalls organised.

This event organised by 3 young blokes is the event everyone is talking about over here ATM  ;D Modern and vintage blokes alike are looking forward to a MX event with the sound of real bikes and espescially 500cc 2ts on full song  :)

Bring it on and congrats to Jason and his mates for taking the inicative  8)

Offline VMX247

  • Megastar
  • *******
  • Posts: 8766
  • Western Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2013, 11:02:31 am »
Graeme I don't think any of the current clubs running events (or attempting to) need to recognize what's involved in running a meeting, they've all done it before.  The added costs & regulations placed on them by the controlling body of the sport is what is making it harder.



No personal offence, though if they have all done it before ,how come it flopped.  :-\

Yes the paper trail, risk assessment is a known killer. This I believe is where we have to encourage others to become involved more as non official's and officials,support them for the future of the sport or there isn't going to be a VMX sport.
I've read twice this week people suggesting selling their bikes on this forum cause of all the bs, lets embrace the mistakes, use them and move forward.  :)
Best is in the West !!

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2013, 11:42:24 am »
GO Johnny GO GO GO!

And Scooter News will promote it to our 800 or so readers, so let us know when it's ready!


No offence taken 247  ;-)

Ok I'll start making inquiries with Winton (Vic) track and AASA and see what I can get off the ground, for this year or next, maybe Post Classic and Classic?

I see it now  The Scooter-News Australian Vintage Motocross Championships, incorporating Classic and Post Classic Championships.

I will be aiming for it to be the 'backyard championships', meaning we are going back to basics, if I can make something happen I expect you all to help in some way,  I'll hopefully have first response from my inquiries on Monday or Tuesday, stay tuned  :-)
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline firko

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 6578
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 12:00:16 pm »
Quote
If MA won't come to the party and reduce some of the costs/requirements to a more appropriate level, then perhaps our "National Title" should be run as Open events? It would mean losing formal recognition, but (IMHO) that is a small price to pay compared to having three of the four scheduled events cancelled in two years... 
Nathan you've unearthed one of my core beliefs with regards to the Nats. The very first Nats at Dargle in '92, which I had a lot to do with, was run as a big Penrith club day and it was an amazing success. The following year the event went to Ravenswood where Bendigo club honcho Brian Clarke went through the process with MA to have the event ratified as an official Australian Championship. I disagreed with Brian's actions at the time, believing that the costs of running the meeting from here on in were going to escalate and history has proved me right. I recall the subject being raised at a meeting prior to the '95 Nats at Tanunda where I gained the insight that the majority of racers were prepared to forgo ''official" championship status in exchange for a less financial outlay and a looser ''feel'' to the event. I got the vibe that a good percentage of racers weren't all that fussed whether their championship wins or placing's were officially noted in the MoMS or not, knowledge and acceptance of their championship status among their peers being more important.

Whatever you think on the subject, it's pretty bloody obvious that something's wrong with the system we've got now. The two cancellations can't be levelled at the era split as I'm sure some are thinking. I'm certain that the extraordinary costs MA imposes on clubs to run a championship and the ever increasing MA regulation and control that go hand in hand are the real culprits here. It's time we took control of our sports holy grail back and I don't necessarily mean succeeding from official MA Championship status either. MA has to look closely at our side of the sport and understand that it's a unique situation. We can't make up the fees with huge sponsorships or spectator income like our brother sports can. A whole new fee structure is needed before we run out of clubs willing to go through the MA financial wringer. If that falls flat perhaps its time to either form our own AHRMA style organisation or to revert back to the big club day format. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 12:22:39 pm by firko »
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2013, 12:05:47 pm »
You right Mark but even our Brother sports are struggling as we are.
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline VMX247

  • Megastar
  • *******
  • Posts: 8766
  • Western Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Simplicity and bullshit ( but we can fix it )
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2013, 01:21:43 pm »
Its a prestige event and MA might be trying to up hold that for that reason.
.riders travel to the titles because it is an Australian Title.You dont see the amount of comitment to travel for a big Open event.
We have to factor in many reasons why it was cancelled.The planets need to align  8)
Best is in the West !!