Author Topic: You finally got to me Firko :-)  (Read 50744 times)

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Offline Tahitian_Red

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You finally got to me Firko :-)
« on: April 29, 2012, 01:38:10 pm »
Well all the DT-1 talk finally wore me down and caused me to pick up a DT-1MX today.  It's a project for sure, but I love a challenge.  ;D

Pics and a thousand questions coming soon. LOL
The "Factory Novice"
California, USA

'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline firko

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 01:58:14 pm »
Hallelujah......You wait Jay, these old things are bloody addictive. ;D
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

Offline Iain Cameron

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 10:30:42 pm »
Another convert, time to hide the stash lol
Yamaha tragic ; dt1, rt1, dt2, rt2, dt2mx , rt2mx , mx250, mx360,sc500, 74dt125, yzx125, yzc250, yzc400, yzd250, yzd400, yzh250, yzh80 , dt100 , xr75 ko xr80 03 , it175 82 . Not a member of any club

Offline Tahitian_Red

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 03:25:31 am »
It is a 1970 DT-1C MX (red tank) and it has Webco foot-pegs.  No tank, seat, rear fender, coil or carb and it looks like someone used it for rear brake parts (pedal, return, rod and arm).

Any tips on the forks?  It looks like they might have the Webco fork kit installed (more travel and rubber gators that match a 1971 ad).

The class I plan to race it in has "Stock" in the name, so the Webco frame kit is out.  (would have been nice to make a Webco bike out of it) :(

What non-reed upgrade were there for the intake system? 

What lightweight items were available back in the day?

I saw an ad for a plastic air-box that mounted in place of the oil tank.  Anyone ever see or use one of these?

Can it compete with square-barrel Maicos and side-pipe CZ's?
The "Factory Novice"
California, USA

'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline Tahitian_Red

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 01:00:53 pm »
Here are some pics.  I've got a lot of work ahead of me.  ;)







The "Factory Novice"
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'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline Tahitian_Red

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 03:56:22 pm »
I can run up to a 34mm Mikuni and install an aftermarket era pipe (Bassani, Hooker, Torque Eng., etc.), but I must keep the stock forks, triples and hubs.  It basically needs to look like I purchased it from the dealership, on a Friday and went and raced it on Sunday.  That makes it a cool class, but the Euro-bikes have a big advantage.
 :(
The "Factory Novice"
California, USA

'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline pancho

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 05:47:52 pm »
 Even the spocket cover is not smashed!!
  cheers pancho
dont follow me i'm probably off line!

Offline firko

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 11:21:10 pm »


Quote
Any tips on the forks?  It looks like they might have the Webco fork kit installed (more travel and rubber gators that match a 1971 ad).
The Yamaha forks are pretty ordinary and I'd replace 'em with 35mm Betors but if your rules prevent that fit a set of YSS PD valves or Race Tech Gold Valve cartridge emulators. I've got a set of MX250 forks (almost the same as DT1B alloy leg items)with Gold Valves and they work a treat. The Webco fork improver kits don't do much. I've been there with that stuff.

Quote
The class I plan to race it in has "Stock" in the name, so the Webco frame kit is out.  (would have been nice to make a Webco bike out of it) Sad
Sad indeed :'(. Lowering the engine cradle 2" and lengthening the swingarm 1.5"-2" makes a shitload of difference. Seeing that you can't cut the frame you'll have to compensate by making sure you have the best forks and shocks your rules allow.
Quote
What non-reed upgrade were there for the intake system?
If you're restricted to a flange mount carb, use a 32mm from an RT1 but if you're allowed to use a VM style Mikuni go for a 34mm mounted on a rubber spigot. The Yamaha is a great, solid engine but they need some serious port work to be really competitive with the Euros. Ditto the head, the GYT centre plug head is pretty good but a Webco or a Jones head (unobtainium!) work much better. The Jones head looks identical to the stock GYT so that will get you around any rules preventing aftermarket heads. The stock GYT pipe is basically shit...go for a Bassani, Torque Industries or Hooker period pipe for noticably improved performance. Throw the points ignition in the shit can and find a 1975 and on DT400 CDI ignition, the external flywheel is reasonably close to the stocker in weight.
Quote
What lightweight items were available back in the day?
There's a guy on Marks Swapmeet selling original shape Preston Petty front fenders right now. Try and get one as they were available in the day and almost every race DT1 used 'em. There are a bunch of plastic tanks available, most guys used a BSA B50 style on their DT1s. Remove the oil tank, find a fibreglass DT2MX airbox, slip in a DT2MX/MX250 rear wheel without the cush drive (a bit lighter+alloy rim), use an alloy rim on front with the stock hub if the rules say you have to but if you can use a period Rickman or REH hub as they were the lightest and best stoppers of the era.
Quote
I saw an ad for a plastic air-box that mounted in place of the oil tank.  Anyone ever see or use one of these?
See DT2MX quote in previous paragraph. I know the plastic airboxes you speak of....unobtainium again.
Quote
Can it compete with square-barrel Maicos and side-pipe CZ's?
This is a tough one...how good a rider are you? Engine wise the Yamaha is potentially as good as the Maico, CZ, Bultaco or anything else you can throw at it. It's just that these bikes were built for "dual sport" action and were waaay under developed. When you consider that the YZ250A is based on the very same engine will give you a hint of the engine's potential. My DT1 from Hell is ported, has a 34mm Amal MK2 Concentric carb and DT400 CDI ignition and a close ratio DT2MX trans and during its brief period of notoriety was easily as competitive as the rival side pipe CZ and Maico squaries.

What lets the DT1 down is the weight and poor chassis dynamics. In a word it's a pig to ride in stock trim.
'tis a pity you can't do the frame mods that are allowed by our rules. They really do transform the bike. The follow up DT2MX had the same geometry as the modified (or Webco) frame mods. It was still a pig but it was a tamer pig ;D.

Our rules appear to be more lenient..allowing for period modifications such as the frame/swingarm mods and many other pre 1970 mods. Being stuck with the stock frame and forks is the big set back but I reckon the challenge in getting the bike to perform competitively is the beauty of the project. That's the reason I built my DT1 back in the early 90's. I had two class legal square barrel Maicos that were far more user friendly but I loved the challenge of turning a frog into a princess. I hope you do too. ;D
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

Offline Tahitian_Red

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 04:06:24 am »
Good info Firko!

I want to keep the stock tank and seat look.  Any chance there might be a fiberglass repro out there somewhere?  I know someone that can make a seat base for me.  I planned to use Petty era fenders front and rear.  I'm stuck with the stock hubs, triples and forks, but I should be able to use a VM Mikuni (does someone make an adapter?) and the DT ignition.  I will definitely go with a better and lighter aftermarket pipe.
 ;D

I was thinking emulators using the Webco damper rods and I have a set of Ohlins laying around.  The front and rear rims will be replaced.

Looks like my biggest problems will be weight, center of gravity and fork flex.  :(

Is the fork brace worth the weight gain?



How do you tell a Jones head from a GYT or DT-1MX?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 05:00:49 am by Tahitian_Red »
The "Factory Novice"
California, USA

'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline vandy010

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 12:10:59 pm »
another alternative for the forks is to use the inside bits from the later monoshock 250/400 DT's,
bigger damper rods and better springs ;)
they bolt straight in with travel about the same.
i'm using an AT1 front hub on my RT1.
much lighter, still brakes well but needs a bit of a mod to the bearings to fit as the smaller AT used a 12mm axle instead of a 15mm.
i had my fr hub sleaved to take the std 15mm id bearing.
and for the feul tank, i have an AT1 tank that i reckon with a bit of fiddling can be made to fit onto the bigger DT1.
smaller, slimmer and still with similar origional looks
"flat bickie"

Offline firko

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2012, 12:15:16 pm »
That bike you've started with looks pretty good Jay....I've started with waaaaay worse examples.
Quote
I want to keep the stock tank and seat look.  Any chance there might be a fiberglass repro out there somewhere?  I know someone that can make a seat base for me.  I planned to use Petty era fenders front and rear.  I'm stuck with the stock hubs, triples and forks, but I should be able to use a VM Mikuni (does someone make an adapter?) and the DT ignition.  I will definitely go with a better and lighter aftermarket pipe.
Don Jones made a lot of bits for the DT1 including an almost replica 'glass tank that is the same shape but a lot narrower. Like all Jones stuff, you'll have a tough time finding one and if you do it'll be a lot of money. The stock tank is heavy but a DT1 doesn't look right without one. Genuine or exact replica tank badges will set you back well over 100 clams but there's a guy on eBay doing passable badges for $60 or so. You'll have an easier time getting a date with Pamela Anderson than finding a rust free and straight DT1 seat base. If your guy is making you one from fibreglass I'll take one too! I'm planning on making a mould from my one goodish seat base but it's way down the priority list at present. I'll keep you in the loop for when mould moves up the list. The rubber inlet manifolds can be bought on eBay. I use one from a TM400 Suzuki.

Quote
I was thinking emulators using the Webco damper rods and I have a set of Ohlins laying around.  The front and rear rims will be replaced.]I was thinking emulators using the Webco damper rods and I have a set of Ohlins laying around.  The front and rear rims will be replaced.
When you use emulators the dampers become irrelevent, merely used to keep the emulator valve in place,
I don't think it'd make much difference whether you use the Webco dampers or the stockers. I'd be using Akront, Borrani or DID 'mud catcher rims to capture the era, even if later un valances rims are cheaper, stronger and easier to clean. To quote the Klub Kevlar Kredo...."It's all about style".
Quote
Looks like my biggest problems will be weight, center of gravity and fork flex.  Sad
Is the fork brace worth the weight gain?
I'm using those Webco style alloy fork braces on a couple of my bikes purely because I think they look cool. The Spaghetti soft DT1 forks can do with everything you can throw at 'em so I'm certain they'll do some good.
Quote
How do you tell a Jones head from a GYT or DT-1MX?
The Jones head has an egg shaped combustion chamber and 'Jones' or 'Kennedy', who took over making them after Jones, imprinted in the casting.


This thread has some interesting stuff.
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=22230.0
Below:This DT1 is a pretty well set up bike that appears to operate under your rules

« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 12:22:04 pm by firko »
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

Offline Tahitian_Red

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2012, 12:58:55 pm »
That is a cool looking DT-1, but like most DT-1 racers I've come across it has later forks.  The black color makes them stealthy in the photos, but it wouldn't get past our scrutineering.  Put the stock forks and seat on it, paint the tank red, paint the pipe black and that's what I would like mine to look like when I'm finished.
 ;D

I thought the Webco rods might be stronger and I already have them.  ???

Will the AT-1/CT-1 fork braces work?
The "Factory Novice"
California, USA

'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline firko

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2012, 01:09:03 pm »
Quote
Will the AT-1/CT-1 fork braces work?
No Jay....they're narrower between the legs
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

Offline firko

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2012, 10:42:02 pm »
               
                    
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 10:56:11 pm by firko »
'68 Yamaha DT1 enduro, '69 Yamaha 'DT1 from Hell' '69 DT1'Dunger from Hell, '69 Cheney Yamaha 360, 70 Maico 350 (2 off), '68 Hindall Ducati 250, Hindall RT2MX, Hindall YZ250a , Cycle Factory RT2MX flat tracker, Yamaha 1T250J, Maico 250 trials, '71, Boyd and Stellings TM400, Shell OW72,750 Yamaha

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Re: You finally got to me Firko :-)
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2012, 10:48:27 pm »
No Jay....they're narrower between the legs

not necessarily what you're after