Nationals Race Sec up date 2012

[211kawasaki]

211 My Wasp has a very small disc on the rear and I'm loath to fit a road based rear drum assy with (most likely steel rim and skinny spokes) Just not safe.
The original is fitted with a tiny Lockheed disc that I'm sure would have been used pre75 in Europe. Wasp tells us it was an option at the time and I am looking for a photo of Grogg or van Hueten using one to proove it.
It wont matter stuff all as we will only be padding the field-we are at best, "also rans!!"

if its a period disc and caliper you dont have a problem, if its a modern caliper and disc you will. Lockheed will be OK

[Freakshow]

Sorry about that Dave i just wanted you take on it so i know what i need to do or not do.

I have had it said at some meeting thought that its all disciplines and you cant tell them otherwise.  IF they put it in the supp regs than does that over ride and its a must ?  just trying to figure out hiow ican sort this out for local meetings.  IS it possible to get this in writting from MA to clarify it and then i can present this referance to COC at meeting casue i have been asked in the past why im letting bike thorought scrutineering with no rear guards.  Unless i have it in writing its always going to be a fight i dont need to get into.
Again thanks for clearing up what will be the expectation at this meeting so we can all understand what complies, before that gets into a bun fight too.

Cheers mate see you in a few weeks.  doing a great job Qld !

[Freakshow]

211 My Wasp has a very small disc on the rear and I'm loath to fit a road based rear drum assy with (most likely steel rim and skinny spokes) Just not safe.
The original is fitted with a tiny Lockheed disc that I'm sure would have been used pre75 in Europe. Wasp tells us it was an option at the time and I am looking for a photo of Grogg or van Hueten using one to proove it.
It wont matter stuff all as we will only be padding the field-we are at best, "also rans!!"

if its a period disc and caliper you dont have a problem, if its a modern caliper and disc you will. Lockheed will be OK

It will be the master cylinder that catches you out, if thats not period you will have issues.  you cant use nissin's for a start.

[Graeme M]

Dave, with all due respect I have to say again that I disagree. However, there is no point in continuing the argument here. I will simply leave you with this.

Neither Chapter 17 Motocross and Supercross or Chapter 20 Dirt Track, like Chapter 18 Classic Motocross and Dirt Track, have specified any requirement to require a rear sprocket cover. That is, not one of those three chapters specifically states a need to have a rear sprocket cover. So, on what basis can MA demand that any bike ridden in modern Motocross or Dirt Track competition have a rear sprocket cover? In fact, how can MA enforce any requirement of Chapter 12 that is not specifically addressed in the discipline specific chapter?

The point of the discipline specific chapters is to specify requirements not already laid down by chapter 12. THAT is why the rulebook is not 6 feet thick - disciplines do not need to respecify requirements that have already been laid down by chapter 12. It is only where the discipline wishes to DEPART from the requirements of chapter 12 that a separate requirement need be specified. And if you don't specify it, then chapter 12 applies.

I hope you don't get any protests on this matter.

[211kawasaki]

I have confered (today) with MA and believe the advice I have given is correct

[EML]

Thanks, the disc is a lockheed original and the caliper an oldy of some sort-deffinately not modern-off an RD or so. The master is the original also.
That just leaves the front master which must be round I'm told.

[Freakshow]

if its a puck disk and period its fine.  You just need to be sure your master units are plunge type and period correct, be it round, square or mechanical cable.  Just Not some 07 nisin unit etc.

There is also an out i belive, that if you cannot comply for fundimental resons, you can approach the COC or cheif scrutineer and sign off your right to be considered for a placing.  Basical saying you want to run , but under stand that as you dont comply you will not be scored for championship points.  What that means is you wont win shit, BUT you will get to have a ride around and enjoy the track with you mates.  can say fairer than that, but the bike must in the most part be period correct and in its right era excepting the non complient item.

Again this is a check wiht the Chief Scrutineer, if in doubt

[supersenior 50]

Guys this chain guard issue will be put to bed in a day or so.

[Freakshow]

regardless of the outcome just make it a Supp reg that its not compulsory pre 78  :O)

then get it in Writing from MA and put a note on it in the final instructions stating that is how the rule will be interpreted at this event.

'Chain guides not compulsary at this event"  bet you heaps dont read htis forum so half wont have anyway given the time till the flag drops.

Cant say fairer than that.  You guys know what your doing better than anyone.  its your meeting.

[Graeme M]

I look forward to the clarification Col. The problem as I see it is that chapter 18 is exactly the same as chapter 17 and 20. That is, none of those chapters specifically require a chain cover to prevent entrapment. However at a local club day here last weekend, the scrutineer carefully explained to me why the cover must be in place, and it is due to the operation of chapter 12. If that is the case, then it applies to all disciplines, which includes classic MX as much as modern MX and DT.

If Dave is right that chapter 18 by specifically NOT mentioning rear sprocket covers somehow prevents the operation of chapter 12, then the same applies to modern MX and DT, as their chapters similarly do not specify anything about covers. Which means our scrutineer is quite wrong to be enforcing that requirement on vintage bikes racing at modern meetings (ie our local club's classic class).

Therefore I can see no argument, based on Dave's interpretation, for MA to enforce rear covers on any Motocross, Dirt Track, or Classic MX/DT motorcycle. I will be passing this question on to MA for an adjudication (however one does this). Chapter 12 says what it says and it is meant to apply to all disciplines. Classic MX gets no out on this one unless it is specified somewhere in Chapter 18 which it clearly isn't. And Chapters 17 and 20 are in the same boat.

[lama]

this is getting abit serious can i hold all the protest money sprockets,chain guards . one old bike ,one old rider gate drops go racing (pretty simple really)

[TM BILL]

this is getting abit serious can i hold all the protest money sprockets,chain guards . one old bike ,one old rider gate drops go racing (pretty simple really)

Mate you got to be allowed to get to the gate first 

[Freakshow]

Vote no to chain guards.....  on my speedway bike i can see why.  BUt on these old bikes i can see greater dangers ....... rear sprockets being the least of our worries. 

Even the covering of the front i question... maybe if you have loose pants, but with modern boots as a must, then what can you fit in there, and if you can how the fork did you get it in there..... 

[EML]

if its a puck disk and period its fine.  You just need to be sure your master units are plunge type and period correct, be it round, square or mechanical cable.  Just Not some 07 nisin unit etc.

There is also an out i belive, that if you cannot comply for fundimental resons, you can approach the COC or cheif scrutineer and sign off your right to be considered for a placing.  Basical saying you want to run , but under stand that as you dont comply you will not be scored for championship points.  What that means is you wont win shit, BUT you will get to have a ride around and enjoy the track with you mates.  can say fairer than that, but the bike must in the most part be period correct and in its right era excepting the non complient item.

Again this is a check wiht the Chief Scrutineer, if in doubt

This is all we've ever asked for from the start.Thanks-entry on its way.

[Montynut]

Graham,
I appreciate your view on the matter and you are free to discuss further with MA if you feel you need further clarification on the subject.
I however respectfully suggest you look to 12.1.0.2 again and read it again.
In summary; class specific rules take precident over general rules; there is no component of the rule book that states that if the class specific rules do not address a specific issue then chapter X or Y applies. Section 18 as applies to CMX is quite specific, targeted and clear as to what the machine requirements are for national competition and as such the scruitineers at the meeting will be looking to section 18 of the rule book on matters of eligibility.
Regards
Dave Tanner

Dave 12.1.0.2 states as you say earlier "Unless otherwise stated the requirements of any discipline-specific chapter override the requirements of this chapter" as chapter 18 is mute (in other words chapter 18 does not override rule 12.8.8.6 ) on the issue of rear sprocket guards surely that means they must be fitted. Chapter 18 does specifically override rule 12.8.8.5 in regards of front sprocket covers.

With all due respect I am not correcting you just pointing out that the rules, as written, is very clear that it applies to all disciplines and has not been overridden in chapter 18. Possibly the intent of the rule was not to apply to VMX and CDT machines but the present rule book cannot be read the way you are explaining it and certainly MA has, or had, the opposite view only days ago.

Should have read Graeme's earlier post but I have the same issues. I would also like some official indication from MA or MNSW as it is causing problems at our Club. Level 3 Scrutineers are saying a rear sprocket cover is required.