The Demise of Qantas

[AjayVMX]

You didn't read my post properly did you? 

The Fair Work judgement made it clear that the option of arbitration would have been rejected if Qantas had applied for it, based on the Union actions only.  Supposedly that is also why the goverment did not intervene either. 

Grounding and potentially doing damage to the national economy was the only action which the (flawed) Fair Work act would allow artbitration to occur in this instance.  Something Allan Joyce pointed out in the senate hearing.

The cause of this whole debacle is in fact the flawed Fair Work act, written incidentally, by a certain Prime Minister. 

[vmx42]

The REAL bottom line is: $550 million profit for this financial year is not a company loosing money hand over fist. Even Lehmann Bros would be able to understand that.

I don't know that highlighting Joyces Irish heritage is necessarily racist [very poor form yes, but to pull the racist card is a bit strong]. And Cameron is just a self absorbed knob who is a lowly bit player in this sorry saga just trying to have his moment in the sun before it all passes him by.

The move by Qantas to bring the dispute to a head [using your words] completely ignores the paying public. They were treated as pawns and if that is the way to protect a business then it displays a unique perspective on the process. That is the core problem, both the Qantas board and the unions are playing each other and forgetting that the paying public might just get sick of both of them and go elsewhere.

It's just a game by both sides - the ideological board versus the unions -  playing their respective roles to a tee. To suggest that this is some major union/management stouch is a furphy - it is small potatoes in historical terms. You run a big company with significant union employees it is going to happen one day - simple reality - and if Joyce didn't realise that when he took the job then maybe he is a fool.

Tony Sheldons desire to further his career is no different to Leigh Clifford trying to further his ideology at the expense of shareholders, passengers and staff. Both men should be held to ridicule for their selfishness.

As for the Minister not acting, as of the day before the Shut Down the Qantas board was saying publicly that they were negotiating with the unions. Why would the minister intervene at that point - no minister of either side of politics would.

And I don't even know what the "love media" is, but I am guessing that they are the ones not supporting your point of view.

[Mike52]

Not a word about the insurance company who this week pulled the plug and moved their complete operations overseas.

[Nathan S]

You didn't read my post properly did you? 

The Fair Work judgement made it clear that the option of arbitration would have been rejected if Qantas had applied for it, based on the Union actions only.  Supposedly that is also why the goverment did not intervene either. 

Grounding and potentially doing damage to the national economy was the only action which the (flawed) Fair Work act would allow artbitration to occur in this instance.  Something Allan Joyce pointed out in the senate hearing.

The cause of this whole debacle is in fact the flawed Fair Work act, written incidentally, by a certain Prime Minister. 

That's the point. The rules were clear, but only one party thought they were above them. And yet you're trying to demonise the unions?

[AjayVMX]

Firstly, the $550 million profit of Qantas was before union action was taken.  It is a reflection on the skill and expertise of Allan Joyce and his management team of course, as many other airlines are not making any profit.  The fact that Qantas made that much money is in spite of the fact that they lost $200million in the International section of the airline.  However $550 million is NOT a large profit for a company the size of Qantas, it represents a very small return on the capital invested and shareholders have not received dividends for 2 years now.  Surely it is the role of management to try and provide the owners of the company with a return on their investment?

In additaion, the $15 million dollar a week loss that was being caused by the union strike action amounts to $780 million per year, which clearly would put Qantas in the red for this year wouldn't it?  No responsible management should allow such a situation to continue.

The unions upped the rhetoric (and thus the ante) immediately following the Qantas board meeting, which didn't of course go the way they wanted.  They indicated that they would continue the industrial action for a year if necessary.  Allan Joyce was clearly faced with no alternative and acted accordingly.

The really crazy thing about this whole deal is that the union workers rejected a pay rise offer from Qantas management which would have given them a 15% advantage over similar workers in Virgin and Jetstar.    Where's the logic in that?  

[mx250]

What Alan Joyce did to Qantas and its customers last week is inexusable and totally unnacceptable under any circumstances, ever. How can someone who earns $5 million a year think that this was not only the best course of action, but the only course of action available. Australians don't like being pushed into a corner and I think a few are already voting with their feet.

Certainly an act of 'bad faith'. I suss it would be illegal in some form - breach of contract??. I notice there has been talk of compensation. Depending on how far the compensation reaches it could be a 'pretty penny' - or PR 'soft soaping'.

[vmx42]

Firstly, the $550 million profit of Qantas was before union action was taken.  It is a reflection on the skill and expertise of Allan Joyce and his management team of course, as many other airlines are not making any profit.

Yep, Joyce and the other suits do all the work. None of the other staff contribute at all, they may as well not turn up as they wouldnt be missed.

And the Qantas board have delivered for their shareholders 10 fold [NOT]. Shift assets to JetStar, gain political leverage to pursue ideological ideals. Passengers expendable, staff expendable, executive renumeration priority. Not one Jot of leadership, or value adding to the brand or business. Piss poor performance.

Ajay, I know you a simple man who loves to see things as BLACK AND WHITE. I.e.: Management - GOOD, Unions - BAD.  Liberals - GOOD, Labor - BAD, Kawasaki - GOOD, Yamaha - BAD. If only life was as simple as you dream the world would be so much easier to understand.

How about we make the good guys wear White Hats and the Baddies wear Black... to save confusion

[AjayVMX]

Thanks for the personal attack. 

No further comment.

[mx250]

And the Qantas board have delivered for their shareholders 10 fold. Shift assets to JetStar, gain political leverage to pursue ideological ideals. Passengers expendable, staff expendable, executive renumeration priority. Not one Jot of leadership, or value adding to the brand or business. Piss poor performance.

It's a brave New World .

These are the tenets of Capitalism.

[vmx42]

Thanks for the personal attack. 

No further comment.

It wasn't intended as a personal attack, any more than your slightly dismissive, parental tone to Nathan was intended to be rude. You feel free to play the heavy to defend your opinions but struggle to acknowledge that there could be two [or even many more] sides any story that are equally relevant.

Qantas isn't 100% right in its stance in this situation - neither are the Unions. As always the truth, if there is any, lies somewhere between the 2 poles.

Who is right and wrong will probably never be known, we will probably only know the winner in the PR stakes. And that is never BLACK and WHITE.

[Nathan S]

....
 It is a reflection on the skill and expertise of Allan Joyce and his management team of course, as many other airlines are not making any profit.  
.... shareholders have not received dividends for 2 years now.

So are they good managers or poor ones?

The workers rejected the pay offer because they are asking for job security.
Even in your imagined capitalist utopia, do you really expect people to shrug their shoulders and say "yeah, moving my job overseas id crap for me, but its good for the company - I'm all for it"?

I can't think of how I'd benefit in the slightest if Qantas is moved partly/significantly/wholy overseas, or allowed to be wound down - but I can see how I'd suffer (indirectly) if that happened.
Therefore I support Qantas staying here - and ultimately I 'have to' support the job security claims from the Qantas employees, and reject the desires of the CEO & board.
Apart from political/financial ideologies, I wonder how any other Australian could come to a different conclusion?

My question mark was meant to indicate that I was inviting comment...

[Davey Crocket]

I love it when Jeffy and AJ have a lovers tiff .....I'm with you AJ, I'm just a dumb motor mechanic and 95% of the shit that comes out of Jeffy and Nathans fingers just confuses me more....both of them need to get real jobs and use/misuse there interlect on people with the same intelligance cause its wasted on us!! .....bring back JOH.....you'd be surprised how many people are now saying he was a visionary and very smart cookie with the "people's" money.














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[Nathan S]

OK John, here's a really simple task:

Explain to me how you and I will benefit if Qantas moves overseas.

[vmx42]

I love it when Jeffy and AJ have a lovers tiff .....I'm with you AJ, I'm just a dumb motor mechanic and 95% of the shit that comes out of Jeffy and Nathans fingers just confuses me more....both of them need to get real jobs and use/misuse there interlect on people with the same intelligance cause its wasted on us!! .....bring back JOH.....you'd be surprised how many people are now saying he was a visionary and very smart cookie with the "people's" money.














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[mx250]

.....bring back JOH.....you'd be surprised how many people are now saying he was a visionary and very smart cookie with the "people's" money.

Surprised?.......that would be the understatement of the century .














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