Author Topic: What is this thing called carbon tax?  (Read 81326 times)

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Offline Graeme M

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What is this thing called carbon tax?
« on: July 04, 2011, 04:21:16 pm »
I've been reading a few of the comments at various news sites regarding the Greens taking the balance of power and also the matter of the carbon tax. The overwhelming majority of commenters are against the carbon tax. Julie Gillard appears to have a very low rating in all the current polls. And yet anti-carbon tax rallies are poorly supported. I can only conclude that in fact most people are pro-carbon tax, but they are just unhappy with the way that Gillard's government is managing the matter.

Personally, I have no idea about the carbon tax - I don't really understand it in detail nor do I have a good sense of its likely impact. But as someone who's hobby/passion is pretty carbon intensive, I probably should have a view. My gut feel is that Australia is wrong to move early, given that the rest of the world seems not to be as adventurous, other than the UK. Given that Australia's contribution to reducing CO2 will have no effect on climate change, it would seem more prudent to me to actively promote appropriate strategies on the world stage whilst adopting the position that Australia will not move until the big players have moved.

What's everyone else think? Are you concerned? Are you passionately on-side with the governmment? Or is it just not that big a deal to you? Or should I just go spend more time polishing my NOS RM125 footpegs?





Offline Canam370

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2011, 04:28:39 pm »
Its like this Graeme. Nothing wrong in polishing the NOS peg. Just do it by hand and don't use an electric buff coz you'll use electricity which cops the carbon tax. And I thought the Government said we weren't going to have any new taxes? >:(
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mx250

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2011, 04:45:34 pm »
Frigging Greenies .

It will be like Free Trade - everyone agrees its a good idea, they'll sign up but then introduce protection barriers indirectly by calling them Cultural Grants or something similar.

In this case the French will have a carbon free society with a nuclear waste stock pile to the heavens. Which is the greater evil?

And the govt will be ripped off by every smart arse industry as with the Solar grant and the Pink batt rorts. Industry will go off shore or simply pass on cost. It's a forlorn hope that they'll that they'll suddenly grow a conscience and act 'for the greater good'. They are profit driven organizations with a profit motivation and will go to where they get the greatest profits.

It will be the consumer and Small Man of society who will pay. And Australia will become less competitive in the world, or GNP/per head will decline and we'll all become poorer, in every meaning of the words. 

Julia or the Mad Monk? - they both are the most abysmal bottom of the barrel politicians Australia has ever suffered. A pox on both houses - especially in regard to carbon tax/global warming. To both it is just a political football to score points with - "screw Australia if you have to, just win the race to the Lodge".

Don't get me started.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2011, 05:14:16 pm »
Meh. Like everything in modern day Australian politics, there's a lot of pointless emotion and very little sensible discussion.
If either side was vaguely competent, then it would be far eaiser to form an informed opinion...

As I see it, a carbon tax is probably a very good way for our society today cut emissions - the old economic rationalist mantra of "user pays". Increasing the price of something is a very effective way of getting people to reassess how/how much they use something.

Problem is that the govt is too chicken shit to say that, so they ponce around telling us that hardly anyone will be worse off. If hardly anyone will be worse off, then the carbon tax won't really reduce emissions.... The same poncing about gives the Mad Monk even more ammunition to use against them.


Also, we're not going it alone as much as you might think.

But its all talk. Gillard and co couldn't sell ice cold beer to a bunch of VMXers on a summer afternoon, so I seriously doubt that they'll get this to fly.
And now that they've exempted petrol from the proposed tax, and are promising rebates and stuff, I can't see it actually making a significant difference to our lives.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

oldfart

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011, 05:19:16 pm »
It's a cash grab... plain and simple. Bet you there was no carbon tax 850 million of years  ago when the poles melt back then.
Green house gases have been around since the day dot. which brings me to another point the ice age.
Google "Obliquity"  talks about earths axis and degree's  and how it alters all by it's self . Now tell me how the hell they plan on fixing this with a Tax.
Come to think of it OZ was under water once.   Dah  
 

Offline Marc.com

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Re: Volcano Carbon Footprint
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2011, 05:52:45 pm »
Here is a sane viewpoint of an actual Professor, rather than the politically rancid view point of someone trying to win the Ferals Vote

Subject:   Volcano's Carbon Footprint

In any significant battle between nature and people, guess who wins?  Professor Ian Plimer could not have said it better!  If you've read his book you will agree.  This is a good summary.
 
 
 
Volcano's Carbon Footprint
 


Are you sitting down?

Okay, here's the bombshell.  The volcanic eruption in Iceland, since its first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2 emissions on our planet – all of you.

Of course, you know about this evil carbon dioxide that we are trying to suppress – it’s that vital chemical compound that every plant requires to live and grow, and to synthesize into oxygen for us humans, and all animal life.

I know it's very disheartening to realize that all of the carbon emission savings you have accomplished while suffering the inconvenience and expense of: driving Prius hybrids, buying fabric grocery bags, sitting up till midnight to finish your kid's "The Green Revolution" science project, throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using only two squares of toilet paper, putting a brick in your toilet tank reservoir, selling your SUV and speedboat, vacationing at home instead of abroad, nearly getting hit every day on your bicycle, replacing all of your 50 cents light bulbs with $10.00 light bulbs...well, all of those things you have done have all gone down the tubes in just four days.

The volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmosphere in just four days - yes - FOUR DAYS ONLY by that volcano in Iceland, has totally erased every single effort you have made to reduce the evil beast, carbon.  And there are around 200 active volcanoes on the planet spewing out this crud at any one time - EVERY DAY.

I don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention that when the volcano Mt Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race had emitted in its entire YEARS on earth.  Yes folks, Mt Pinatubo was active for over one year – think about it.

Of course I shouldn't spoil this touchy-feely, tree-hugging moment and mention the effect of solar and cosmic activity and the well-recognized 800-year global heating and cooling cycle, which keep happening, despite our completely insignificant efforts to affect climate change.

And I do wish I had a silver lining to this volcanic ash cloud, but the fact of the matter is that the bush fire season across the western USA and Australia this year alone will negate your efforts to reduce carbon in our world for the next two to three years.  And it happens every year.

Just remember that your government just tried to impose a whopping carbon tax on you on the basis of the bogus “human-caused” climate change scenario.

Hey, isn’t it interesting how they don’t mention “Global Warming” any more, but just “Climate Change” - you know why?  It’s because the planet has COOLED by 0.7 degrees in the past century and these global warming bull artists got caught with their pants down.

And just keep in mind that you might yet have an Emissions Trading Scheme – that whopping new tax – imposed on you, that will achieve absolutely nothing except make you poorer.  It won’t stop any volcanoes from erupting, that’s for sure.

But, hey, relax.  Give the world a hug and have a nice day!

PS: I wonder if Iceland is buying carbon offsets from Obama?
 
 
 
formerly Marc.com

Offline Tex

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2011, 05:59:57 pm »
Quote
isn’t it interesting how they don’t mention “Global Warming” any more, but just “Climate Change”

Ha, yes I noticed that and was wondering why the change in rhetoric had occured. (Not that I'm implying this guy is right either).

Tex

TooFastTim

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2011, 06:06:48 pm »
Fact #1: Both the liberals and labour campaigned on a no-carbon tax platform. This implies that apprx 90% od Australians are against the carbon tax.

Fact #2: Carbon, although a greenhouse gas (and human activity produces about 7% of carbon, excluding the volcano example above) it is not the major greenhous gas. That honour goes to water vapour. Guess how much of the planets water vapour human activity produces? Didley squat!

Fact #3: Is the climate changing? Are we witnessing a temporary deviation from the average or is it a major change? We don't know. Consider 300 years ago the River Thames froze over in winter for several winters in sucsession.

mx250

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2011, 06:11:04 pm »
A new adage; 'Truth is the first victim in a political debate'. ;) :'(

Offline JAP 454

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2011, 06:15:43 pm »
                              And the cycle goes round and round

FWIW
Foss

mx250

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2011, 06:23:04 pm »

 - the old economic rationalist mantra of "user pays".

What school of economics is that from?

I though User Pays was political/bureaucrat talk for 'we'll tax them to build it and charge them to use it' ::).


Increasing the price of something is a very effective way of getting people to reassess how/how much they use something.

My school boy economics tells me the theory of Supply and Demand is a lot more complex than that.

And besides, you are talking about controlling price in Australia and yet our economic welfare is dictated by the world economy as much if not more than the Australian economy.

Offline YZ250H

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2011, 06:27:35 pm »
A bit long winded, but work the effort.  Decide for yourself
How Well Has The Media And Government Informed The Public About CO2 Levels In The Air?
Ask yourself, your friends, family and work associates if they know the answers to the following questions about Carbon Dioxide (CO2). Be sure to write your answers before looking at the following pages.
Question 1. What percentage of the atmosphere do you think is CO2?
Question 2. Have you ever seen the percentage given in any media?
Question 3. What percentage of the CO2 is man-made?
Question 4. What percentage of the man-made CO2 does Australia produce?
Question 5. Is CO2 is a pollutant?
Question 6. Have you ever seen any evidence that CO2 causes a greenhouse effect?
I have asked over 100 people these questions. Virtually everyone says they don’t know the answers so ask them to tell you what their perception is by what they have learnt from the media, the government and Green groups. Let them know there is no right or wrong answer as you are just doing a survey as to what people have perceived the answers to be from these sources.
The answers to these questions are fundamental to evaluating the global warming scare YET almost no one knows the facts. However, without this knowledge we can’t make an informed decision about whether Climate Change is natural or not.
On the following pages are respondent’s perceptions followed by the correct answers. The bulk of the respondents (over 100 to date) are educated fairly well to very well. They comprise business managers in a diversity of large and small companies, those in medical profession, accounting, law, sales, engineering as well as scientists and trades people.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Q1. What % of the air is CO2?
Respondent’s Answers: nearly all were 20% - 40%, the highest was 75% while the lowest were 10%- 2%.
The Correct Answer: CO2 is less than a mere four 100ths of 1%! As a decimal it is 0.038%. As a fraction it is 1/27th of 1%. (Measurements for CO2 vary from one source to another from 0.036%- 0.039% due to the difficulty in measuring such a small quantity and due to changes in wind direction e.g. whether the air flow is from an industrialized region or a volcanic emission etc)
Nitrogen is just over 78%, Oxygen is just under 21% and Argon is almost 1%. CO2 is a minute trace gas at 0.038%. We all learnt the composition of the air in both primary and high school but because most people don’t use science in their day to day living, they have forgotten this. Also, the vast bulk of the population have very little knowledge of science so they find it impossible to make judgements about even basic scientific issues let alone ones as complex as climate. This makes it easy for those with agendas to deceive us by using emotive statements rather than facts. For a detailed breakup of the atmosphere go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth#Composition
Q2. Have you seen a percentage for CO2 given in the media?
Respondent’s answers: All said ’No’.
Q3. What % of CO2 do humans produce?
Respondent’s answers ranged from as high as 100% with most estimating it to be between 75% to 25% and only four said they thought it was between 10% and 2 %.
The Correct Answer: Nature produces nearly all of it. Humans produce only 3%. As a decimal it is a miniscule 0.001% of the air. All of mankind produces only one molecule of CO2 in around every 90,000 air molecules! Yes, that’s all.
Q4. What % of man-made CO2 does Australia produce?
Respondent’s Answers ranged from 20% to 5%.
The Correct Answer is 1% of the 0.001% of man-made CO2. As a decimal it is an insignificant 0.00001% of the air. That’s one, one-hundredth thousandth of the air. That is what all the fuss is about! That’s one CO2 molecule from Australia in every 9,000,000 molecules of air. It has absolutely no affect at all.
We have been grossly misled to think there is tens of thousands of times as much CO2 as there is!
Why has such important information been withheld from the public? If the public were aware that man-made CO2 is so incredibly small there would be very little belief in a climate disaster so the media would not be able to make a bonanza from years of high sales by selling doomsday stories. Governments and Green groups would not be able to justify a carbon tax that will greatly raise the cost of everything. Major international banks and the stock market would not make massive profits out of carbon trading and many in the science community would not be getting large research grants.
Q5. Is CO2 is a pollutant?
Respondent’s Answers: All thought it was a pollutant, at least to some degree.
The Correct Answer: CO2 is a harmless, trace gas. It is as necessary for life - just as oxygen and nitrogen are. It is a natural gas that is clear, tasteless and odourless. It is in no way a pollutant.
Calling CO2 a ‘pollutant’ leads many to wrongly think of it as black, grey or white smoke. Because the media deceitfully show white or grey ‘smoke’ coming out of power station cooling towers, most think this is CO2. It is not: it’s just steam (water vapour) condensing in the air. CO2 is invisible: just breathe out and see. Look at it bubbling out of your soft drinks, beer or sparkling wine. No one considers that a pollutant - because it’s not. CO2 in its frozen state is commonly known as dry ice. It is used in camping eskys, in medical treatments and science experiments. No one considers that a pollutant either. CO2 is emitted from all plants. This ‘emission’ is not considered a pollutant even though this alone is 33 times more than man produces! Huge quantities of CO2 are dissolved naturally in the ocean and released from the warm surface. This is not considered a pollutant either.
The two large cooling towers are emitting only steam. A tiny amount of CO2 is trickling out of the thin chimney at centre. It is only barely visible due to a small quantity of smoke particles, most of which is filtered out nowadays. The media doesn’t like to show skinny CO2 chimneys emitting nothing visible because this is unimpressive and not the least bit emotive so it doesn’t make for sensationalist journalism. So they typically choose to deceive the public by showing cooling towers.
Q6. Have you seen any evidence that CO2 causes a greenhouse effect?
Respondent’s Answers: Most did not know of any definite proof. Some said they thought the melting of the Arctic and glaciers was possibly proof.
The Correct Answer: There is no proof at all. The Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change (the IPCC) has never produced any proof. There are, however the following proofs that it can’t cause a greenhouse effect.
• It is true that CO2 can absorb heat a little faster than nitrogen and oxygen but it becomes no hotter because it cannot absorb anymore heat than there is available to the other gases. This is against the laws of thermodynamics. All gases share their heat with the other gases. Gas molecules fly around and are constantly colliding with other gas molecules so they immediately lose any excess heat to other molecules during these collisions. That’s why the air is all one temperature in any limited volume.
• Even if CO2 levels were many times higher, radiative heating physics shows that it would make virtually no difference to temperature because it has a very limited heating ability. With CO2, the more there is, the less it heats because it quickly becomes saturated. For a detailed explanation go to: http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
The following facts show that even high levels of CO2 can make almost no impact on heating the atmosphere.
1. Glasshouses with high levels of CO2 - hundreds of times higher than in the air to make plants grow faster – heat up during the day to the same temperature as glasshouses with air in them. This is also true for bottles of pure CO2 compared to ones with air.
2. The planets Venus and Mars have atmospheres that are almost entirely CO2 (97%) yet they have no ‘runaway’ greenhouse heating effect. Their temperatures are stable.
3. The geological record over hundreds of millions of years has shown that CO2 has had no affect whatsoever on climate. At times, CO2 was hundreds of times higher, yet there were ice ages.
4. In recent times when Earth was considerably warmer during the Roman Warming and the Medieval Warming, the higher temperatures then were totally natural because there was no industrialization back then.
• Water vapour is 4% of the air and that‘s 100 times as much as CO2. Water vapour absorbs 33 times as much heat as CO2 making CO2’s contribution insignificant. But like CO2, water vapour also gives this heat away to air molecules by contact (conduction) and radiation, thereby making the surrounding air the same temperature.
• The Earth’s atmosphere is very thin so its heat is continually being lost to the absolute coldness of outer space (-270 C). As there is no ‘ceiling’ to the atmosphere, surface heat cannot be retained. The Sun renews warmth every day.
Over the last few years Earth has had much colder winters due to very few magnetic storms on the Sun. These four increasingly colder winters have been particularly noticeable in the northern hemisphere where most of the land is. Because of this, the Arctic has re-frozen and glaciers that were receding are now surging due to the heavy snow falls. The Arctic showed some melting around its edges from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s due to the very high level of solar storm activity at that time. But as the Sun is now entering probably 2-4 decades of low solar activity, this is expected to cause global cooling. For more detail, see the following page.

The climate has always been naturally cyclic and variable due to numerous natural drivers of which CO2 is not one. Over millions of years the climate has shown far greater changes in the geological record than we have seen over the last 200 hundred years - and there was no industrialization back then. The very minor variations we have witnessed over the last 100 years have all occurred several times even in that short period. Today’s changes in climate are common and completely natural. There are now over 50 books that provide numerous reasons why man-made global warming is false.
The Effect of the Sun on Earth’s climate
It has long been known that the Sun is by far the major driver of all weather on Earth because it is the source of all heat and energy. There is absolutely no real-world evidence that the temperature has continually risen as we were led to believe. The hottest records in the USA and Greenland were in the 1930s due to a strong solar cycle. It became cooler from 1940 to 1970. This was due to a weak solar cycle. It has again become increasingly colder since 2006 due to another weak solar cycle. The Sun’s magnetic storm activity has now moved to an extended minimum so the next 2-4 maximums are expected to be much weaker than the last few have been. By 2011 the solar cycle should have risen half way back to its 11 year maximum but it hasn’t! It’s only just started. The last time the Sun acted this way was during the Dalton Minimum from 1790 to 1830 which produced 40 years of very cold winters with subdued, wetter summers globally - just as we are expiring now. From 1450 -1750 a more intense Maunder Minimum occurred which caused the Little Ice Age. The next 2-4 solar cycles will very likely be low in solar activity causing noticeably cooler global temperatures for a few decades.
For details see: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/02/solar-cycle-24-update
and http://www.climatechangedenier.com.au/climate-change/another-dalton-minimum/
The effect of the current Solar Minimum is particularly obvious in the northern hemisphere where increasingly colder winter temperatures have caused massive snow falls disrupting transportation across Europe, Asia and the US.
Despite more than a decade of continual doomsday predictions of increasing temperatures and never-ending drought globally, the opposite has happened. There have been lower temperatures globally with greatly increased rain and snows over much of the planet since 2006. This has caused floods across most of Australia and most other counties, as seen on the TV news. This ended the global 10 year drought conditions from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s. There has been no drop in CO2 to cause this: in fact, CO2 has risen. There is no correlation between CO2 levels and climate. The reason CO2 levels have gone up a little is most likely due to the surface of the oceans warming very slightly during the later half of the century and therefore releasing a little CO2. (The oceans are currently cooling very slightly.) Mankind’s contribution to CO2 is so small it’s not measurable.
Polls on Climate Change
Polls in western countries now show that believers in man-made global warming are now in the minority with a sizable percentage of over 20% who “don’t know” if CO2 is causing any change. The obvious change to a cooler, wetter climate combined with the revelations of climate fraud shown by the Climategate emails has led to the change in public perception. Polls asking people what is the most important threat to them out of a list of 20 issues, place global warming at the bottom!
Popular beliefs are not fact
The bulk of the population of the western world believed that the 2000 Bug would destroy much of our technology on New Year’s Eve 2000 yet not one disaster occurred anywhere. We were told CFCs caused the Ozone ‘hole’ yet after billions of dollars were spent removing CFCs over 30 years, the slight depletion of Ozone at the South Pole has not changed. Scientists now think it is natural. Popular beliefs are often based on blind faith, ideology and profit rather than proven scientific evidence. History is littered with popular consensuses that were wrong.
A Carbon Tax
Taxing CO2 achieves nothing for the environment; in fact, it deprives real environmental issues from receiving funds. A carbon tax will have a disastrous impact on lower and middle income earners. Even if drastic measures were imposed equally on all countries around the world to reduce the total human CO2 contribution by as much as 30%, this would reduce total CO2 by an insignificant percentage. It would have no affect whatsoever on the climate but it would totally destroy the economies of every country and dramatically lower everyone’s living standards. Most people and politicians are making decisions emotively, not factually about a complex science they know virtually nothing about.
Gregg D Thompson
Climate Researcher
Astronomer
Environmentalist
Author of two science books
Business Manager and Director of 3 companies
Author of science magazine articles
Designer and project manager of special effects attractions
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Has a great interest in most sciences
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Offline bazza

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2011, 06:38:27 pm »
Stand up before its to late!!  US    russia and china do 70%of the worlds pollution and guess which 3 countries dont belong to keoto or what ever carbon tax rip off
Once you go black  you will never go back - allblacks
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2011, 06:53:08 pm »
Climate Change Scepticism always reminds me of the old saying about unhappy families being unhappy in their own way.
In particular, the whole "its part of a natural cycle, let's go to the pub" line, without any further thought about the implications, betrays the desire to avoid change.

I'm not a sceptic (although I am loathe to call myself a believer, because that implies a degree of religious fervor, which I definitely lack).

But really, for me, its far more about reducing our appetite for resources, particularly the non-renewables. Even if Climate change is a total fabrication (and not even Abbott claims its a total fabrication), I hope that it could/would be the issue that forces western society to think of the future, rather that blindly depending upon the extremely wobbly, vague notion that it will all work out in the end.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline Mike52

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2011, 07:00:57 pm »
I lived for 20 years using no electricity .  I,ve done my bit. Well I have done more that the people who accuse me of being a polluter.
We had 1500acres of trees and the government said we were not allowed to cut them down.
The reason the trees were there was because we did NOT cut them down.
Had we cut them down then we would NOT have had a problem with the new green laws.
Ironic.
We were punished for doing the right thing. (The green rules scared buyers and we got a Lower  price at sale )

The carbon tax won,t change a thing because there is no viable alternative.
I don,t want to wreck the planet so give me an alternative and I,ll use it.
Until then piss off.
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