Nationals split: pre-75 or pre-78?

[DJRacing]

I congratulate the WA club on their brillant move to have the split for the Nationals at Pre75, when in another 15 to 20yrs I'm sure the 7" and 4" bikes will have such big numbers because none of us are getting any younger but by then will have all the time on our hands to race them. Also with the amount of energy put in by the club to get the split at Pre75 I can see them getting behind it and promoting the youth of today onto Pre60-65-70 and 75 bikes, isnt that already happening??

[Brian Watson]

I don't know if you want to use Broadford as a model..but..it is the most recent display of rider willingness to get their bikes out that we can use..
Pre 78 125cc

[Brian Watson]

Bloody butter fingers...here is the rest..

 don't know if you want to use Broadford as a model..but..it is the most recent display of rider willingness to get their bikes out that we can use..
Pre 78 125cc  ..7 entries with only 5 fronting for Race 3
Pre 78 250cc...8 entries with only 6 fronting for Race 3
Pre 78 263 and over 7 entries with 5 fronting for Race 3

These figures are taken from the e-results page

So..what does this show?...either no-one should hang their hat on Pre 78 being the "saviour" to prop up Pre 75 ...or no-one wanted to race at Broadford..

[Mike]

It really doesn't matter if you agree with the reasoning behind it or not, but here we go with one last try.
VMXWA is trying to preserve pre 75 "racing", we stick to the 7 and 4 cutoff to encourage pre 70 and pre 65 "racing", we run these classes in our big events and as feature races on some race days.  It disappoints me that some previous posters accuse us as being short sighted and damaging the sport in one post and then in others can state that they think pre 65 will become a "display" class.  That is what we are trying to prevent. That's my last post on this topic because I don't think it can be said any more clearly than that and I realise that it doesn't matter what is said some short sighted people will always think the we're responsible for the perceived demise of pre 78 racing. 

[bert]

For David#46. Good to hear the Classic Scramble club is actively promoting and racing pre'75. I just wonder how your racing days are organised? Whether you race for points leading to trophies, or simply ride for the pleasure and a chance for a race win?

If you are racing for points to achieve a gong then this means that the usual 10% of the riders will be winning the usual 80% of the trophies. This does not promote willing participation from the other 90% of the members who will win nothing, and usually get roosted in the process. Promoting participation through riding for the fun of it only, and grading riders on their ability (not by the capacity of their machines), ensures that riders are happy competing with their peers of similar speed, have a good race without getting carried away, and perhaps a win. Everyone likes to have a win eventually.

This race attitude also allows for machine sharing at a club day. This is how I was introduced to the pleasures of early pommy 4 strokes and R40. Now I'm hooked. Competitors are not concerned at losing points if they lend their machine to a fellow competitor and they get the pleasure of riding something different. The older machines race alongside the "modern" machines. It is only the riders ability that is considered.

Different race meetings have a particular feature race class - these being pre-65, pre'70, Pommy, Euro trash, etc. It is a great reason to bring out the older rarer machines and share the love.

This is how to encourage participation at a club level - based upon the clubs chosen era (7 and 4) and race for no gongs. Strong clubs of their chosen era means that there is a larger pool of riders to attend National titles for that era.

[firko]

I had a very long and what I thought sensible reply to this debate ready to post but unfortunately I hit delete button by mistake and lost the lot. I went then away, had a cup of coffee and fitted the Arces triple clamps to my Cheney, all the time thinking what to say in my revamped reply.

Then I decided that what I'd said earlier makes the most sense. Arguing differing philosophy on a forum is a pointless exercise and achieves nothing other than allowing us to get our points off our chests. The downside is that it often becomes personal and eventually erupts into a shitstorm which achieves nothing but entertain the cyber lurkers,those wankers who post the little smiley face eating popcorn, yet rarely contribute anything sensible or even mildly entertaining.

This isn't at all personal. I've made some good friends in the west and despite what's written elsewhere on this post, I genuinely support your steadfast devotion to the pre '75 ideal. However, I believe that by using your local experience as a guide to your submission, you're overlooking the needs of the sport in other parts of Australia.

This discussion is about one meeting per year, nothing more. It's not an attempt to overthrow your club charter and force you guys to include pre '78 at every meeting on your calendar. On the law of averages the WAVMX may, just maybe, promote a classic Nationals every four years or so, so what would be so disruptive of your system to include a pre '78 class at one meeting every four years?

I think I and the many other pre '78 advocates have argued our point in an articulate way, as have you guys. I can bet that if the commission had made the split at pre '78 you guys would be as bothered as we are and be complaining even louder. As a group we fuc*ed up in not supporting Col Metchers submission. I'm assuming that we all thought the mythical somebody else had also made submissions. I'm one of those people so I'm as guilty as everyone else. Luckily, all is not lost and the decision can be overturned if the pre '78 supporters are passionate enough to offer submissions based on Cols template.

The thing that worries me however is that if the commission is convinced to change their decision, what reaction will come from the west? I sincerely hope it doesn't evolve into yet another lengthy debate.


 

[vmx42]

Then I decided that what I'd said earlier makes the most sense. Arguing differing philosophy on a forum is a pointless exercise and achieves nothing other than allowing us to get our points off our chests. The downside is that it often becomes personal and eventually erupts into a shitstorm which achieves nothing but entertain the cyber lurkers,those wankers who post the little smiley face eating popcorn, yet rarely contribute anything sensible or even mildly entertaining.

Very well said. I am not sure whether it was the triple clamps or the coffee or both, but the new Firko is so much more mellow than the old one…

Perhaps we should all hit the delete button on our posts, go to the shed for some fettling, and then comeback and share our rekindled  wisdom. I for one will give it a go [which should make Ji happy  ].

Well done Mr Firkin, very well done!

[DR]

those wankers who post the little smiley face eating popcorn

  I lay claim to being the original and most proficient poster of popcorn munching emoticons. Now you've really upset me Fiko! Is nothing sacred anymore and just who are these copycat scoundrels!

another senseless or even mildly entertaining post by yours truly

[vmx42]

Be careful Doc,

Don't upset 'Fiko'. You never know what will happen…

[firko]

I could never be upset with you Doc. I should have written "those wankers who post the little smiley face eating popcorn with the exception of Doc".

[JC]

Gents

I hesitate to enter the foray. I don't race anymore for numerous reasons, mostly related to $$, distance & chronic health issues, but still attend VMX events when I can.

But having followed the thread it seems to me there are some blind spots here, some of the things being said beggar belief, & the WA guys are being treated somewhat unfairly - eg slating them for putting in a submission & talk of having head in the sand & not thinking of the future of the whole sport.

There are two cogent logical arguments here, which unfortunately are mutually exclusive - they have irreconcilable differences.

1. WA guys are saying they're protecting the future of the older classes by keeping to 4" travel. That sounds to me like concern for the future of the sport. Personally I don't know how anybody can argue that 9" travel bikes aren't going to cut up the track more & are therefore likely (but not necessarily guaranteed) to turn many away from turning up for the earlier classes. To deny that 9" travel bikes aren't going to cut the track up more is head in the sand stuff in my view.  What happened to all the tracks back in the day when we went to 6" travel? And again to 9" then 12" etc? What was the big bunfight over when Vic started introducing later (post75) classes way back in the 90's?  

And if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, WAVMX have a lot of runs on the board with the success of how they're doing it.

Theirs is a cogent logical argument & nobody can guarantee that the inclusion of pre78 won't diminish those older classes at national level

2. Others are saying that the inclusion of pre78 will bring in more younger riders to the sport & therefore make the sport more viable for the future. That is also a cogent logical argument. Nobody can guarantee it will happen that way but it is likely.

FWIW I favour the inclusion of pre78 w pre75, but I have to admit that WA has a good point

Obviously the powers that be will have to make a decision in favour of one over the other. Maybe it will be a judgement over which is most likely to occur, & who knows the answer to that? Perhaps it will have to be on a suck-it-&-see basis after all appropriate submissions have been considered.

As Mark says, just get the submissions in. Then let the umpire decide. Dave T & co have a lot of nous

One  final question: if the commission decides to include pre78 w pre75, will a club be 'forced' into including pre78 if they want to run the Nats, or will it still be at their discretion?

[090]

First of all I would like to commend WAVMX for what they do. Nobody including me has ragged you guys for being pro 75. Good luck to you and you know it is working for you. Good stuff.
The only problem with all this is you guys have your club ways stuck in your head and simply will not accept that National level is any different. That is where my head in the sand call comes from. Having said that, I will be writing my own submission as that is the only real course of action.Not whinging here.
Having the option of holding a nationals up to pre 75 or pre 78 seems a logical solution as well.
A couple of other things.
I reckon I can cut the track up just as much on a pre75 as a pre 78.
I think long travel bikes cutting a track up more than short travel is a myth. The more bikes on a track, the more it chops up. The more you are on the gas, the more it chops up.
Moderns chop up tracks big time.Is it suspension or the four stroke factor? It is more the fact that they get heaps more riders attending AND they are on the gas more than us old farts.
I would also like to know numbers of pre 65 and 60 in the WA club days. From what I here there ain't too many(riding, not members). The guys who own them are getting too old. That is THE main reason they aren't on the start line.

[Brian Watson]

Brad, I will get some numbers for you about the amount of pre 65 bikes that regularly front our starting lines...you may well be suprised...I don't have the figures with me here (at work)...but suffice to say it will be (at least) double the amount that fronted to Broadford..As far as a future Nats on the West coast...I believe it would be unlikely...given the "constitution"...

[Noel]

Just to help so we know what we are discussing

http://www.ma.org.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Reports___Minutes/2010/Commission_Meetings/80010578%20CMX%20Minutes%208%20%26%209%20May%2010.pdf

Note 2 year trial
Cheers
Noel

[Nathan S]

Bloody butter fingers...here is the rest..

 don't know if you want to use Broadford as a model..but..it is the most recent display of rider willingness to get their bikes out that we can use..
Pre 78 125cc  ..7 entries with only 5 fronting for Race 3
Pre 78 250cc...8 entries with only 6 fronting for Race 3
Pre 78 263 and over 7 entries with 5 fronting for Race 3

These figures are taken from the e-results page

So..what does this show?...either no-one should hang their hat on Pre 78 being the "saviour" to prop up Pre 75 ...or no-one wanted to race at Broadford..

Those figures are both incorrect and misleading - the three classes all had at least 10 entries, with 'too many' riders electing to avoid the slop and sit out their races, or breaking their bikes over the weekend (or sometimes missing their races because they were too busy socialising, hey Donny!).

As you alluded, the overall turn-out for Broadford was underwhelming - if you're going to judge the health of any class based on entries at Broadford, then its clearly time to turn out the lights on ALL of the pre-70 classes, as none of them surpassed the pre-78 125 class for entry numbers... (Don't worry, I'll join in the screaming if anyone seriously suggests that!).

Or, we could blindly accept your argument, and then question whether a total of 16 bikes is ever going to damage a track to a noticable degree...


The track arguments are all a bit of smoke and mirrors for the purpose of this discussion, as it will only be an issue IF all of the following occurs all at the same time:
1. The assertions about pre-78 bikes chewing up the track are correct AND
2. The WA Club hosts another National title meeting AND
3. The WA club holds that National title meeting at Narrogin AND
4. Significant numbers of pre-78 bikes turn up.

Is Narrogin WA's only candidate track? Is it really going to be harmed by a couple of dozen pre-78 bikes, on a weekend when many thousands of laps will be completed?

The attitude shown toward pre-78 bikes is a bit scary, really - personally, I'd be a lot more comfortable with the opinions expressed if they were backed up with some experience with pre-78 VMX bikes (and their riders), and if they were willing to acknowledge the point of view of those that have the experience...

I also feel the need to point out that the vast majority of pre-78 riders (at National level) also ride pre-75 and older, while very few of them ride Evo and newer.
This fact alone tells the story of where the pre-78 bikes belong.