Vinduro cut off date?

[EML]

We've finally come the full loop, a couple of days ago I suggested we just get some events happening and have some FUN!!

[VMX247]

If it becomes a RACE or raised to a competition level event, were out. We being a group of 8.
The whole attraction of VINDURO's is being able to escape without the pressure of competition, drink beer and tell a whole lot of lies. Drakey got the formula right here in VIC, please let it be that way.

True ,so if the hosting club run's the event under a Rec license, that's all it will ever have to be 
No comp-- no trophy's    ..just fun fun fun 
Waiting on Drakies input when he returns. 
cheers

Agree totally...rec riding, rec licence, very simple guidelines and F U N .....FUN!   

and this is a similar concept of how VMXWA is run and has been for the last 15 years...
 If it ain't broke,don't fix it   
oh did I tell you about our 15th Anniversary ...well I'll let you read the latest VMX Magazine-we are in there   
cheers

[NSR]

I think Pre 88 or Pre 87 may be more rational, but what ever is decided you will probably find a reasonable exception.

IMO, GMC has it right.  I have always said Pre90 knowing it was floored but simple.  My vote now is Pre88.

As for racing, if your not racing, your just stamp collecting.  I would hope there are people who aspire to run some competition vinduros.  They are full on comps in Europe and they seem to have a good time.  I'm not saying they should all be comps but it would be great to see one or two. 
Cheers
Noel         
         

[Colin Jay]

I agree with the year cut off system of classification, i.e. Pre 1985, and if there was enough interest from those with other bikes, either earlier or later, Pre 1978 and pre 1990. If you are ridding for the fun of ridding then a technical adantage that someone on another bike may have is irrelavent.

If the events are to be a competetive "races" then still use the year system with no technical limitations, and if you want to win, choose your bike appropriatlly, don't try and race something that isn't going to be competetive unless the rules are made to suit your choice of bike!

I put forward my veiws as someone who has been ridding in what could be classed as a competetive Vinduro class; Class M (bike over 20 years old, i.e. Pre 1990 this year) in the SA reliability Trial Series. I have been riding in this series for 2 years now on a period modified 1976 Yamaha XT500C. This year the main opposition, Paul Collins, was riding a 1989 KX250 (yes, a road registered MX'er). He won all 4 round (of 6) that he entered by a long way, generally about 15 minutes quicker than my times. I got minor placings and won the class in one of the two rounds that he didn't ride (I DNF the other, but was the only entry so it basically didn't count), the net result was that I ended up with the overall series win, so a hugh technical advantage to him meant nothing in the end.

Now I can and do complain that there is a hugh technical advantage in favor of those who choose to ride the most modern bikes that are eligible in the class, and I did put in a written submission through MSA to have the class limited to pre '85 last year, but it is MY CHOICE to ride a 1976 XT500, so I live with my choice.  I am having fun, and will continue to ride the series on the XT as long as the old body (51 years and ageing quicker than I would like) will allow, and with a bit of luck I might actually finish the 24Hr if I keep trying.

As an aside to prove that technical advantages are not everthing; in one round of the series (the Mike Connor 6hr), Shane Kraft rode a near stock 1977 TT500D in the Expert Class. Yes he did finish last in the Experts, but with a overall place of 40th (from memory) out of a feild of over 100 riders. An awefully lot of those who finished after Shane were riding the latest model Yamaha, Honda and KTM enduro weapons, which proves that it is quality of the rider which counts, not quality of the bike!

CJ

[Tex]

Drakey got the formula right here in VIC, please let it be that way.

Exactly.

Cut off date? Pre 85, like it is now. Pre 85 is in some respects an arbitrary date, but it keeps it simple. GMC makes good points about enduro bike evolution, but not everyone has the same level of knowledge or understanding when it comes to dirt bike history.

Modified motocrossers? Why not? Follow-on models? Definitely. What exactly are people worried about anyway? We're gonna be swamped with Post 85 bikes and motocrossers?! It's been three years and it hasn't happened yet.

I've been to all but one of the Vic Vinduros since they started. Off the top of my head I can recall seeing a total of four modified motocrossers. Some of these include some very nicely modified examples, including a sweet CR125 with an XR200 engine. I don't want to see regular MX bikes out there, but people did ride modified motocrossers back in the day, and if someone's made an effort then why not?

Yes, some post 85 bikes have also been present, but again as far as I can see it's one or two bikes at each meeting (if at all), and never the same ones. Not exactly a flood is it? Ideally there would be none, but sometimes there could be genuine reasons why someone brought a slightly later model bike that day ("Pre 85 bike blew up the day before", "I thought this was an 84 model", "I just want to see what Vinduros are like before I commit & buy a Pre 85 bike", etc, etc).

As I understood it, follow-on models are bikes that did not change after 1984. This mostly applies to a handful of trailbikes. For example the XT250 was released in 1980, but was made up until 1989 with no changes at all aside from graphics. So, why shouldn't someone ride an 1988 XT250? And if these kind of bikes aren't allowed then are we going to have someone checking compliance plates?

Is it really in the spirit to turn someone away, who drove for two hours, whose bike doesn't quite fit the criteria? Bear in mind that currently Vic Vinduros are non-competitive, so there's no real advantage to be had. If they become a race, then rigidly enforced classes will obviously have to be in place. Personally I don't want to see them become competitive.

We're onto a good thing down here, and while numbers have been good, they have been average at some events. We shouldn't be looking for new ways to exclude people. The rules have always been clear to me, and thus far they have been applied with common sense.

If it ain't broke,don't fix it

That's right.

Cheers
Tex

[Mick]

If people want Pre 85 all good and well I am happy with that as my bikes are no older than 81 models, but nothing after Pre 85 should be allowed or it is just a joke,,,,if there is going to be a cut off date then that is it,,but if so called run on models are allowed in then dont bother calling it Pre 85 you cant have a date and then let people have newer models than that it's just not right, and I dont care if Vinduro is for fun or racing if it stays as fun then by running a newer bike you are not within the spirit of the date picked and if it is racing then you would be braking the rules.

Sues bike DT 175 was built on the 12/84 but it is a 85 model,,,,so if they brought a rule in that said rules go by year model not date built model then even though her bike did not change much at all for years we would not use that bike because it would not be within the spirit or rules of Vinduro,,I'm not to smart but thats simple for me to understand.   

Cheers Mick.

[LWC82PE]

yeah Colin, Ive heard they have put a cap on it being pre 90 in the road trials and its not going to be kept opening up one more newer year each yr which is good.

Mick has it in a nut shell - have a cut off date and strongly enforce it and no follow on models.

If there is a follow one rule, that opens up a whole can of worms and we end up with the arguments and fights about what is legal and what is not like we have in VMX.

[GMC]

I don’t believe that follow on models have ever caused any other problem except for debating if they are the same or not.
I can’t see any reason to ban one of 2 identical bikes based on build dates. If it is the same as an earlier model then that is what I would call spirit of the era.
We should be celebrating bikes, not years.

As to the cut off date, well their has been a couple of 86/87 models getting a run, & it would seem that most people don’t care. So if most don’t care why don’t we simply move the goal posts to Pre 88 & be done with it.

There is no real reason to have a cut off date that ends with a five or zero

I don’t want to change anything either, I agree that the formula is a good one & these events should remain non competitive.

Changing the format to Pre88 doesn’t change anything as some of these models have been getting a run anyway.

[IT400C]

If it's totally non-competitive, then it's just a trailride - go for Pre 85 and let in the follow on models.

If it's competitive, then have hard and fast classes and stick to them!    

Class 1A/    Pre '75 up to 200cc
Class 1B/    Pre '75 over 200cc
Class 2A/    Pre '80 up to 200cc
Class 2B/    Pre '80 over 200cc
Class 3A/    Pre '85 up to 200cc
Class 3B/    Pre '85 over 200cc
Class 4/      Rally Class - Pre '85 and non competitive.


In the event of there being less than 5 entries in a class (or 3 or whatever number the club's happy with), then that division reverts to Unlimited.
i.e. 2 entries in class 1A and 3 in class 1B, then it runs as Class 1/     Pre '75 Unlimited..  Classes are able to be combined under the GCR's, so if there's not enough combine them.

You run Class 4 under one day licenses (which are available here in QLD - not sure about the rest of the country).  Send them out last, stamp their cards at checkpoints, but no section times are recorded, no results, no trophies...  QLD ran a similar Rally class at most rounds of the State Enduro series for years - not sure if they still do, but it worked well.

This way I think you'd get the best of both world, those that want to compete can, and against bikes around the same era.  And those that want a fun day trailriding can too.  

[IT400C]

And let people enter up a class!  If someone on a '78 175 wants to ride in the Pre 85 over 200cc because that's where all his mates are, why not!!  He's not going to be at any advantage, so let him ride with his mates...   

[Colin Jay]

They run a Rally Class in the reliability (road) trial series here in SA using oneday licences and no timing at the checkpoints, pretty much as you have described IT400C, with the rally class enteries only doing the daylight lap (i.e. lap 1 in the 6 - 8hr events and laps 1 & 4 in the 24Hr). The whole aim of the rally class is to get riders interested, before they have to spend big money on lighting systems.

I can't see the problem with "carry on" models, if a later bike is the same except for some minor difference and graphics as the pre- "what ever year" model, then what is the big deal. I think most guys who are licenced scrutineers/machine examiners (and even for a non-competetive event bike need to be examined) would know enough about bikes to know if someone was trying to pull a fast one, and as all/most of  the events are not competetive again where is the harm in some one ridding a bike that is "not quite" of the period, especially if the rider was out for a ride to see if they liked vinduro events. I know if I was doing the scrutineering, or if a scrutineer bought the case to me as the responcible officail /Clerk of Course, I would let them ride.

Remember, it is supposed to be about having a good time ridding on an enduro style course on older bikes, and the more bums on bike you can get the better it is for all. At least you won't be being roosted by some would be hotshot an a late model WR/CR/KTM 450.

CJ

[IT400C]

Yeah, I personally don't have a problem with follow on models.  My only concern is that the moment you make it competitive, you'll get protests.

Take the 1986 IT200S - It's the same as the N except for the front disc brake.  Probably not much better than a double leading shoe in the dry, but if it's wet/muddy....  Someone's bound to protest.

So if they're ouside of the classes - Class 4 (non-competitive)....

Just my thoughts anyway.   

[viper42]

Like everything else in the modern world,lets put rules and laws in place and really stuff it up - Remember its just for fun.

Next we will be debating whether we should be able to bring the kids and let them ride in the paddock.

[NSR]

Nice work Tony.  Only can we not mention protests again.  Just because you have a competition doesn't mean every one wants to protest everything.  I raced enduro's for a lot of years and apart from some at 4days i don't remember any.  Same as VMX only seems to happen at the Nats and right now i can't imagine a Aust Vinduro champs....Would be good but.             

Why do MX riders, who race in competitions with rules and have fun doing it think it would be a bad thing in vinduros?       

OK if I was to run a competition vinduro these are the classes I would start with.
What do you think.

Class 0       Pre 88 100cc2s/150cc4s
Class 1A/    Pre '77 up to 200cc
Class 1B/    Pre '77 over 200cc
Class 2A/    Pre '80 up to 200cc
Class 2B/    Pre '80 over 200cc
Class 3B/    EVO    up to 200cc
Class 3B/    EVO    over 200cc
Class 4A/    Pre '88 up to 200cc
Class 4B/    Pre '88 over 200cc

Cheers
Noel

[IT400C]

Only can we not mention p#@$!$%* again.

Noel, happy to!

Class 0       Pre 88 100cc2s/150cc4s
Class 1A/    Pre '77 up to 200cc
Class 1B/    Pre '77 over 200cc
Class 2A/    Pre '80 up to 200cc
Class 2B/    Pre '80 over 200cc
Class 3B/    EVO    up to 200cc
Class 3B/    EVO    over 200cc
Class 4A/    Pre '88 up to 200cc
Class 4B/    Pre '88 over 200cc

I like those classes!  My 76 IT400 doesn't have to race against pre '80 bikes!!   

I like Class 0 too - I remember doing an enduro in '82 or '83 where Stephen Grant rode a big wheel RM80.  I was a minute behind him, and he had that thing screaming!  Right up till when he boiled it dry somewhere in the 2nd or 3rd section....   :'( :'(