Vinduro cut off date?

[GMC]

What should the cut-off date be for Vinduro bikes?
Twin shock?
Pre 85?
Pre 90?
Or something else again?

I feel that Twin shock would limit allowable bikes too much, there are many single shock old school bikes that I believe are Vinduro friendly

Pre 85 has been the format for Vic. but the casual allowance of some later bikes seems to have some questioning what is & isn’t allowed.
1985 though is nothing more than a number that sits neatly in the middle of a decade. The year 85 bears no real evolution breakthrough for Enduro bikes. In fact the whole of the 80’s was a changing period for off road bikes. 1980 started with evolution bikes (twin shock, aircooled, drum brakes) but was also when linkage suspension was introduced.
All the brands updated different parts in different years until by 89 most had evolved to…
Water cooling.
Double discs.
Linkage suspension.
Upside down forks.

It’s these four criteria that tend to define a modern bike to me.

Pre 90 doesn’t cut it with me either
The 89 KDX 200 for example has all those modern traits & as such I don’t believe it belongs in Vinduro’s.
Also if you allowed it then you have follow on KDX 200’s from the early nineties coming in as they were much the same for a few years.
But the 88 & earlier KDX 200 was still air cooled & therefore still seems “oldschool” to me. Even the linkage suspension was the old rocker arm type, the 89 model updated to the lower link suspension that is typical of all moderns.
The post 85 IT200 is another. Updated to disc front but still air cooled, I consider all the WR models moderns but any IT model as “old school”
I know of some 85/86 Maico’s. They are modern in performance, yet still appeal to me as “old school”. Maybe because they are an obsolete brand that makes me feel this way.
Some Huskys have that old school feel too, I think the Cagiva takeover changed them to moderns.

There are many other models that fall into a similar theme.

As brands evolved in so many different ways it’s hard to define them by year alone.
The MX classes, even though named by year are essentially defined by their technological evolution.


I think Pre 88 or Pre 87 may be more rational, but what ever is decided you will probably find a reasonable exception.

It would be nice to come up with a national standard.
What are your thoughts?

[gerpster]

Ahhhhh snap...I was just posting the same sort of thing over on the enduro bike board....seems great minds are arriving at the same point in history...or not.     

Anyway my original post was as follows....**********

I have been thinking about Vinduro rules lately as a result of some discussion on OZVMX and the fact there is not a current rule code formally "out there", which aint a bad thing at this stage either.    Wink

Given that the Vinduro scene is just starting out (sort of...Vic is way ahead of most states) and hopefully hotting up then I think it is good to keep the events open to as many as possible, within some reasonable guidelines, and run as non-comptetitive events as well.

I am trying to get 1 or more Vinduros happening in 2010 so this has also got me thinking about "the rules".
What do people think of the following?

The ACT club has an Evo bike criteria that I think could be adapted to well suit the Vinduro concept. The basics of these are that bikes should be;
Drum rear brake and "conventional" front forks (no upside down forks) ......and I would suggest a headlight (but it need not be functioning). This would open a wide range of bikes but keep within the spirit of the Vinduro concept...I think. It makes some mid to late 1980s bikes eligible (front discs) and why not as some are basically the same model with a front disc instead of a front drum. Water cooling may be pushing it a bit...open to discussion on that one. Maybe a cut off of pre 1990 might also help.

Am not too sure on tail lights as a lot of bikes have had them badly damaged and/or removed and it seems a very minor requirement.

The question of including some/all MX bikes with an added headlight (which seems to have been possible in eduro days of old) is a curly one and open for discussion I guess. My gut feeling is to not exclude it but not encourage it.

In summary, the aim and expectation would be to attract and have the majority of bikes being of drum/drum brake configuration with standard forks and most likely made prior to 1985, participating in a fun non-race event as is underway in the various Victorian meets held to date.  ******

I agree with all your points, while aligning it to some aspects of technology seems a good idea it can get very complicated and there is always the exception.

The best I can think of right now that would include the widest range of bikes to get a good participation rate going (and still be in the spirit of Vinduro) would be maybe pre 1990 and no rear discs...or you could say pre 1990 and air cooled only.
I think at this stage clear and simple is good for an event that should be fun and get a wide range of great older bikes.   

[VMX247]

The concept of mx and enduro bikes is an interesting topic. In the 80's I raced an MX bike with the light etc. We did a lot of desert racing so the advantages of low gearing were not a big requirement.
I do agree with the concept of keeping it within the spirit of the era though. If it was made and sold as an enduro bike with lights and winkies then its enduro, make the age cut off what you like, but MX bikes are mx bikes regardless of the bits you hang off them!
Sort out the eligibility and then sort out the age group. 
cheers S&A WA

[Husky500evo]

     Just my two bobs worth ( & it's probably not even worth that , as I haven't actually ridden in a vinduro yet ). But I did compete this year in a vintage pony express at Malanda in FNQ & had an extremely fun time . The rules for machines at that event were simply : pre '85 , aircooled & no disc brakes, with under 200cc and over 200cc classes . I think it was a great concept & worked quite well . A couple of young blokes on an '84 KDX200 were about half a lap in front ,until it nipped up.  There wasn't a huge number of bikes for this first time event, but there seemed to be a lot of talk from spectators about having bikes ready for at least 2 or 3 events planned for next year .
     Anyway, my feeling is that disc brakes & watercooling should not be be allowed in vinduro events, as these two features offer unfair advantage over drum braked, aircooled bikes. The pre '85 year cutoff is probably a reasonable guideline, but there could be scope for allowing some post '85 models that were still aircooled & had drum brakes . Some examples of machines that would not comply, even with a pre '85 cutoff would be the watercooled '84 Husky WR400 & the '83/84 Honda XR500. The '83 XR500 honda had a very good, twin piston caliper, disc brake on the front & I could never understand why Honda didn't fit it to the '83 CR480 as well  .   
     
         

[gerpster]

Yeh but then some 85 models are identical to 1984 models so why should you then have to go and get the same thing but 1 year earlier just to ride a "friendly Vinduro". The 86 IT200S is nearly the same as its previous drum brake models but just has the disc...and it aint that great I can assure you... ..it surely aint any 'advantage' to me. And the concept of an 'advatage' in a non-race format is pointless. IF it gets to serious racing one day then maybe things need to be tighter, but for now we need all the riders and bikes we can get out of sheds and onto the track.     


Canam370 suggested.......
How about pre 85, pre 90 and a Special interest class for modifieds from the 2 'era's'?

I think this seems a good idea and a good compromise.

[GMC]

Canam370 suggested.......
How about pre 85, pre 90 and a Special interest class for modifieds from the 2 'era's'?

What classes to run if the events become competitive is another can of worms again.

As the events in Vic so far & I think NSW as well, have all been non competitive then I feel classes & disc brakes are irrelevant. This is more about what is the youngest bike that should be allowed a ride?

While I would be interested in a competitive event, I can't help but feel this would ruin the events. The casual relaxed atmosphere is what makes them so great.

Pre 85 was the suggested cut off, but the casual allowance of some 86 & 88 models has upset some.
I don't feel that these models are that much out of place with these events & so maybe we should move the cut off to Pre88 & then be stricter with it?

[Mick]

Yep I dont really care what the date is but what ever it is then that should be it and no exceptions.

Cheers Mick.

[gerpster]

I'm not sure why people would be upset as to a few later models joining in given all the events to date (and probably the forseable future) have been recreational fun events for older enduro bikes and fans.

Maybe at the moment a 'guideline' of pre 89 might be the go (based on the KDX example) but it would be sad to see potential riders turned away if their bike was within the spirit of the event but didn't meet the year rule etc.

I just don't think turning away any interested riders that have made an effort with an older enduro or enduro like/modified bike is viable at the moment for a recreational event format. It's gotta be all about having FUN with the older bikes. But yes, anything obviously recent,  'modern', dangerous, etc should not be turning up.

[Husk72]

Ok,I agree with all youse people that the need for good,basic rules,for vinduros is foremost.
But,the rules need to be sorted now.Before a fun blast round the loops,turns into a scruiteneering nightmare,later.
Pre 85,air cooled and drum brakes,seem to be the consensus here.
But.....I have a 1984 TS250,which is watercooled and has front disc.
So,do I have to move to another suggested era,maybe?
This bike is not cutting edge or a stepping stone to spectacular vinduro wins.
So,whats to be done?
Firstly: PRE 85,means exactly that.It wuz built before 1985!
Some seem to think its the old school look they like to see go round the loops.Thats fine.I love aircooled too,got a shed full of 'em.Like to see 'em blast the loops,tracks,etc.
So,if you want to do that,organise it so the rules state:

Pre watercooled,no front disc,etc.
Whatever years preceeding the advent of watercooled and disc brake enduro bikes were available,start it from that period.No exceptions.
The IT had front disc brakes,but had the same as previous years IT's performance capabilities.
Too bad.IT DON'T MAKE IT!You see my point?

Pick the era,before all the mods that changed the bikes to be far too advanced for earlier type enduro bikes,to compete,competively against.That way we will have a real base starting date to give birth to pre-whatever year vinduros.Then sort the year models cut off dates upwards to evo's:Say: 85,87,90,open.
Otherwise,if and when,this sport of ours takes off(vinduro),we'll have a revolution on hand about rule guidelines.Then;cleaning the shit cans,is gunna get a whole lot harder!  
I leave you with a quote from an ok-ish movie;'If you build it,they will come.'
Thats my fifty bucks.


                                                     Cheers,Mark.

[LWC82PE]

Firstly: PRE 85,means exactly that.It wuz built before 1985!

That is not quite right. Pre 85 means pre 85 models (models up to and including 84) You can have a bike built in lets say February 1985 which is during 1985 that  is a 84 model but it is legal for pre 85. It doesnt actually have to be built pre 85, A late run 84 model built during the first half of 85 is ok.

[gerpster]

Vinduro wins? Are we really racing? Against who and what? Isn't this supposed to be FUN and inclusive and recreational? That's the whole attraction to me for the Vinduros. Great bikes, great riding, great fun. No pressure, no racing (yet). Until it gets serious (if ever) with races for sheep stations (or whatever) then it's gotta be about getting bikes and blokes/gals out of sheds and back into some fun riding days where all the family can participate if they like.

Ok for me it's pre 89 or 90 and welcome to all. If a 1989 KDX200 turns up (or similar) and wants to have some fun then so be it. There is no absolute year cut off that can be applied that will make a clean cut off between the technology used, the bike makers introduced water cooling, discs, USD forks etc all over the place in the 1980s (and maybe before).

Until this is serious racing (and some of the issues that then come up will more than likely wreck the whole concept with infighting and bickering) then lets be open to all those seriously interested in the recreational sport.

[LWC82PE]

Ok for me it's pre 90 and welcome to all. If a 1989 KDX200 turns up (or similar) and wants to have some fun then so be it. There is no absolute year cut off that can be applied that will make a clean cut off between the technology used, the bike makers introduced water cooling, discs, USD forks etc all over the place in the 1980s (and maybe before).

yep i agree

[BAHNZY]

If it becomes a RACE or raised to a competition level event, were out. We being a group of 8.
The whole attraction of VINDURO's is being able to escape without the pressure of competition, drink beer and tell a whole lot of lies. Drakey got the formula right here in VIC, please let it be that way.

[VMX247]

If it becomes a RACE or raised to a competition level event, were out. We being a group of 8.
The whole attraction of VINDURO's is being able to escape without the pressure of competition, drink beer and tell a whole lot of lies. Drakey got the formula right here in VIC, please let it be that way.

True ,so if the hosting club run's the event under a Rec license, that's all it will ever have to be 
No comp-- no trophy's    ..just fun fun fun 
Waiting on Drakies input when he returns. 
cheers

[gerpster]

If it becomes a RACE or raised to a competition level event, were out. We being a group of 8.
The whole attraction of VINDURO's is being able to escape without the pressure of competition, drink beer and tell a whole lot of lies. Drakey got the formula right here in VIC, please let it be that way.

True ,so if the hosting club run's the event under a Rec license, that's all it will ever have to be 
No comp-- no trophy's    ..just fun fun fun 
Waiting on Drakies input when he returns. 
cheers

Agree totally...rec riding, rec licence, very simple guidelines and F U N .....FUN!