Author Topic: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's  (Read 15126 times)

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Offline PEZBerq

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PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« on: October 11, 2009, 08:22:33 pm »
A fellow Husky owner had his 83 250 WR die on him and had to be towed back to the pits. >:( >:( No spark was the verdict on an oily looking NGK.  Tried a brand new plug NGK B8ES with no joy - sparking not!  Disconnected the kill switch and still no joy.  Pulled off the ignition cover to find a shiny new PVL ignition there instead of the elderly Motoplat I was expecting. Hmm unlikely to have a fault there.  Thinking the days riding was cactus we tried one last roll of the dice....fitted an old Champion N3C I had lying in the bottom of the tool box.  Nice spark resulted and the bike never ran so well. :) :) :) The N3 is equivalent to the B8ES heat range.

What the hell is going on here ??? ??? ??? Old Champion sparks great - 2 NGK's wont spark.  Anyone else experience this sort of thing.
Husqvarnas: 78 390AMX, 82 430XC, 84 240WR, 84 500AE, 84 510TE, 87 510TE

Offline JohnnyO

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 10:02:40 pm »
The pvl on my Maico loves NGK's..that's all i ever use, usually just a B8ES.

Offline bigk

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 10:59:36 pm »
I've had a lot of drama's with ES series NGK plugs. One minute they work the next they don't. Swapped to EG series and have had no problems since.
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K

Offline crabman

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 06:35:09 am »
I had the exact same problem with a NGK B8ES at Fraleigh Castle, swopped plugs and bike started first kick, I have also had a similar problem in South Africa with a brand new plug and Motoplat ignition. Changed pluag and it started after a few kicks
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Offline JohnnyO

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 07:42:02 am »
What plug do you guys use that have had trouble with NGK ES series?

shoey

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2009, 07:57:50 am »

Also earthing is very , very important.

Most people recommend a secondary earth wire from the ignition backing plate to the ignition coil.

Certainly a fabulous product

The following is from the PVL installation instructions.


Section 7: SPARK PLUGS: For an analog PVL ignition, it is not necessary to use resistor type spark plugs or resistor spark plug caps unless you are using some sort of microprocessor controlled data acquisition equipment such as a digital tachometer or exhaust gas temperature gauges. If you must use some sort of RFI suppression equipment, use only resistor plugs or resistor plug caps – never both!

For an Analog version PVL ignition, we recommend using non-resistor fine wire or fine wire/precious metal type spark plugs, such as NGK brand plugs V or VX.  These spark plugs, like non-resistor caps, use less of the ignition’s energy to make the spark and thus, have a more powerful spark. If your machine requires the long reach type plugs, use the NGK EV or EVX type spark plug. For short reach, use the NGK HV, HVX or HIX type plugs. Most of the other plug manufacturers also have plugs like this in their product lines. If you must resort to using a resistor type plug, we recommend the NGK IX (short reach) or EIX (long reach) series. These resistor type plugs have the least amount of resistor in them. Do not use the G, GV, or S (standard) series type NGK plugs, as these type plugs require more of the ignition’s current to make the spark and will cause starting difficulties or no starting at all.

For a digital PVL ignition, you must use a resistor in the spark path. We recommend that you use a resistor type cap such as the 5K Ohm spark plug cap supplied with your PVL ignition, rather than using a resistor type spark plug.

Gap Setting: In engines that are very high compression, it is recommended that you use a plug gap of 0.020" – 0.022”. In extreme cases of engines with very high compression and running on alcohol or fuel, it may be necessary to bring the gap down as low as 0.018”.

Section 8:  SPARK PLUG CAPS: Included in this kit are non-resistor cap/caps for analog systems, resistor type caps for a digital systems The spark plug caps that are supplied with this PVL Ignition kit, although very economical in appearance, work very well. Digital version PVL ignitions require a resistor spark plug cap of 5K Ohm value, as is supplied with kit, to work correctly. A resistor cap is normally imprinted with the value (5K/5000 , etc.) and the symbol for Ohms (the Greek letter Omega, sort of an O with the bottom cut out and wings on each side of the cut).

The best method of installation is to strip back about 32mm of the wire and bend this portion of the wire over at 90 degrees to the insulated portion of the wire. Then, at a point about 1?4” back from the end of the insulated portion of the wire, press the pointed tang of the terminal spring through the insulation so that it contacts the wire on its way through the insulation. Use a pair of pliers to press the tang all the way down tight. Once the terminal is in place with the spring loop at the end of the wire, wrap the stripped portion of the wire around the end of the spring loop to insure contact. Spray a little contact cleaner on the insulation boot and quickly slide into place over the spring loop and wire. This assembly works very satisfactorily for off road use.

Section 9:  Kill Switches:  When using a tether switch on an ATV, you must use a separate tether for each high tension coil. A twin cylinder actually has two ignitions, so it is necessary to use either two separate shut off devices or a device that is capable of handling two separate circuits independent of one another. If you are using a toggle switch, you must use a double pole/single throw switch to keep the circuits separate during operation. The red wire exiting the coil or CDI module is to be used for the kill button wire. Connect the red wire to the “hot” side of the switch/tether and the opposite side of the switch/tether to ground. When the two sides of the device are connected, the charge from the stator is then taken to ground, stopping the engine.

PRECAUTIONS   While nearly all electronic ignitions are resistant to moisture during operation, they will suffer damage if  moisture  is allowed to seep into the windings and from the subsequent corrosion that will occur.  We recommend that after use, the magneto cover be removed to allow any accumulated moisture to evaporate. This is especially true after washing the machine with high powered spray equipment. An added benefit of doing this is that you will be able to spot any other problspot any other problems that have arisen due to a failing seal or bearing. A failed bearing will nearly always result in a destroyed ignition.

Kenny-A

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2009, 08:10:37 pm »
Steve,

I'm still using that old champion plug. The husky hasn't missed a beat since.
Three new ones in the tool box.

Thanks for your help on the day.... :) :) :)

Ken. 

Offline EML

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 03:08:07 pm »
As I have stated here before, we have had heaps of troubles with the plugs on the Wasp with std 650 Yam motor.
The L/H plug will drop out for no apparent reason, usually at the worst time.(last yrs sidecar spectacular we were on the start line of the last heat-we only needed 5th or better to win the overall-when the plug fouled as the gate dropped!!) 
I have spoken to both NGK and the fuel co.s and they can't give an explaination although Caltex did say the leaving fuel in plastic or glass tanks will leech resins out of the tank walls into the fuel-these resins will not burn well and may stick to the plug electrode causing it to short.
Have not as yet tried another type of plug but from what has been said here it may have some merit.

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 05:56:11 pm »
EML, i do not not a plug problem you got there when one fouls up first all the time. Its always mainly a carby syncronisation problem with either the vacume type or cable type when one slide pulls a hair thickness earlier than the other.  If the slides dont pull evenly/are balanced you will have problems.The other cause can be if the compression is down slightly in one cylinder.The other problem is not having the correct heat range for.

A) type of fuel used
B) riding style/conditions
C) engine combustion chamber design
D) state of tune of the carby's
E) ignition type/condition.

You need to focus on getting the low speed/idle mixture right for both cylinders. If one is slightly out it wont take long for one plug to foul up.

Another problem is a mechanical fault in one carby. I had a problem once where one plug would just foul up on one cylinder all the time. Just couldnt work out what it was. In the end i found out it was a brass tube that the needle goes though (wasnt the actal needle jet) that normally is pressed into pressed into the carby body, well when the carby heated up this brass tube was comming loose and stuffing up the mixture in one carby. So you can imagine how hard that was to find! when the carby cooled you would not have noticed it. Its was only when my finger acidently touched it when i went to take the carby off that i felt it was loose.

If everything is not matched and synched up you will get fouling problems.
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Offline EML

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 06:28:59 pm »
I'm not sure I would call it a "fouling" problem as the plug isn't dirty, more just a dead plug.

Offline Lozza

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 08:38:34 pm »
Join us in the Denso revolution
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline Mick D

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 09:38:53 pm »

Also earthing is very , very important.

Most people recommend a secondary earth wire from the ignition backing plate to the ignition coil.

Certainly a fabulous product

The following is from the PVL installation instructions.


Section 7: SPARK PLUGS: For an analog PVL ignition, it is not necessary to use resistor type spark plugs or resistor spark plug caps unless you are using some sort of microprocessor controlled data acquisition equipment such as a digital tachometer or exhaust gas temperature gauges. If you must use some sort of RFI suppression equipment, use only resistor plugs or resistor plug caps – never both!

For an Analog version PVL ignition, we recommend using non-resistor fine wire or fine wire/precious metal type spark plugs, such as NGK brand plugs V or VX.  These spark plugs, like non-resistor caps, use less of the ignition’s energy to make the spark and thus, have a more powerful spark. If your machine requires the long reach type plugs, use the NGK EV or EVX type spark plug. For short reach, use the NGK HV, HVX or HIX type plugs. Most of the other plug manufacturers also have plugs like this in their product lines. If you must resort to using a resistor type plug, we recommend the NGK IX (short reach) or EIX (long reach) series. These resistor type plugs have the least amount of resistor in them. Do not use the G, GV, or S (standard) series type NGK plugs, as these type plugs require more of the ignition’s current to make the spark and will cause starting difficulties or no starting at all.

For a digital PVL ignition, you must use a resistor in the spark path. We recommend that you use a resistor type cap such as the 5K Ohm spark plug cap supplied with your PVL ignition, rather than using a resistor type spark plug.

Gap Setting: In engines that are very high compression, it is recommended that you use a plug gap of 0.020" – 0.022”. In extreme cases of engines with very high compression and running on alcohol or fuel, it may be necessary to bring the gap down as low as 0.018”.

Section 8:  SPARK PLUG CAPS: Included in this kit are non-resistor cap/caps for analog systems, resistor type caps for a digital systems The spark plug caps that are supplied with this PVL Ignition kit, although very economical in appearance, work very well. Digital version PVL ignitions require a resistor spark plug cap of 5K Ohm value, as is supplied with kit, to work correctly. A resistor cap is normally imprinted with the value (5K/5000 , etc.) and the symbol for Ohms (the Greek letter Omega, sort of an O with the bottom cut out and wings on each side of the cut).

The best method of installation is to strip back about 32mm of the wire and bend this portion of the wire over at 90 degrees to the insulated portion of the wire. Then, at a point about 1?4” back from the end of the insulated portion of the wire, press the pointed tang of the terminal spring through the insulation so that it contacts the wire on its way through the insulation. Use a pair of pliers to press the tang all the way down tight. Once the terminal is in place with the spring loop at the end of the wire, wrap the stripped portion of the wire around the end of the spring loop to insure contact. Spray a little contact cleaner on the insulation boot and quickly slide into place over the spring loop and wire. This assembly works very satisfactorily for off road use.

Section 9:  Kill Switches:  When using a tether switch on an ATV, you must use a separate tether for each high tension coil. A twin cylinder actually has two ignitions, so it is necessary to use either two separate shut off devices or a device that is capable of handling two separate circuits independent of one another. If you are using a toggle switch, you must use a double pole/single throw switch to keep the circuits separate during operation. The red wire exiting the coil or CDI module is to be used for the kill button wire. Connect the red wire to the “hot” side of the switch/tether and the opposite side of the switch/tether to ground. When the two sides of the device are connected, the charge from the stator is then taken to ground, stopping the engine.

PRECAUTIONS   While nearly all electronic ignitions are resistant to moisture during operation, they will suffer damage if  moisture  is allowed to seep into the windings and from the subsequent corrosion that will occur.  We recommend that after use, the magneto cover be removed to allow any accumulated moisture to evaporate. This is especially true after washing the machine with high powered spray equipment. An added benefit of doing this is that you will be able to spot any other problspot any other problems that have arisen due to a failing seal or bearing. A failed bearing will nearly always result in a destroyed ignition.
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline Freakshow

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 04:45:08 pm »
Spark plugs,  i guess it depends who is doing that outsourcing batch  ...............








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Offline EML

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2010, 05:16:10 pm »
Hey Freaky. How do they know which are NGK and which are ND or Champion for that matter?? or do you rubber stamp them when the get here??

Offline Freakshow

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Re: PVL Ignition Hates NGK's
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 05:21:59 pm »
The porcelin is already stamped from what i can see in the pics.
I guess they just run a batch that week and then so on, probally pool 4 other teams work together and yours would be inthe batch, p[robally explains why some work some dont depends on which sweat shop knocked out your plug, you might be unlucky and get 2 in a row. 
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff