So What's Wrong With It?

[Lozza]

Firko I can't find any reference to 'available' or 'freely available'  I can only find 18.7.14.2, 18.7.14.3 and 18.7.14.4 in the 08 MoMS. .3 states 'Modifications using later equipment are not allowed but .4 states "All components are to be from the period the machine was manufactured". Which contradict each other a bit.
18.6.0.4 refers to "components manufactured within the period" and "true reflection of the period depicted"
There is an overview at the start of Historic Road racing section but NO such staement at the beginning of Classic Motocross.There is also a Eligability paragraph for Road racing which is where I got my interpretation of eligabilty from, 16.4.0.5  b) "For a race bike the year in which the machine first appeared or the latest major component first appeared in open competition"
There should be a defining statement which explains major and minor components.This would help where some component was available, raced and used with in the period but opinion is divided on if it's with the spirit of the rules.I think a carbon copy of the road race rules should be included for up to Pre-85 mx.
Would then be up to legal eagles like Nitram to tell us which rules carries the most weight.

 

[Hoony]

very interesting discussion and i am enjoying it BUT as barnsy has mentioned in his original post he won't be going to the Nats so it's a non issue at present. Even in VIPER i don't think it will be an issue for Pre 85'

So What's Wrong With It? nothing, its a very nice bike and one i want to see trackside "Top Job Bahnster"

Interested with comments from anyone, and i wont be taking the bike (or for that matter myself) to the Nationals. Simply ran out of time and money.

[ba-02-xr]

I might of missed this in all the post somewhere but where WP 4054s available AFTERMARKET for a honda in 84? As this is what these ones are ment to represent. If so are these forks mechanicaly the same. Dont worry about  looks. I think it should be legal just on pure looks anyway. Niiiccceeee.

[090]

Wow, missed this one till now. No doubt the bike looks fantastic and trick. All for trick bikes. As far as im concerned, you are just trying to find a way to make it legal to suit the bike. Its just not right in my eyes. Same as Glen Bells 84 CR500 with the WP's. Again in my opinion, not in the spirit.
I too have a set of USD WP's but i will put them on an '85 model or later to fit in the pre '90 era .

[BAHNZY]

If I read the comments thus far, If the lower disc mount was removed, the 84 drum brake housing was fitted and then modified to take the KX500 original calliper it would be o/k. I’ll be first to admit, as I have elsewhere previously in this thread, that a disc brake 4054 was not “commercially” available in 1984 although a drum brake version was. My thought was that the major component (Ie: The forks) was o/k given that the “follow rule” exists in nearly every class of Vintage/Classic motocross. I won’t be chopping up a very expensive set of forks to make them look like they fit within the ERA so I will just live with the bike as is and use it in the odd VIPER event and the CLASSIC DIRT’s in years to come although I will swap out the 1984 Honda calliper for the 1983 Kawasaki calliper to make it look more era specific.

However……
If I was serious about racing and was on the grid with other bikes that were completely standard and built within the spirit of the era then I wouldn’t even bother, I’d leave the standard 43mm unit’s in. The problem is that a lot of riders “stretch” the rules with one or more of the below listed items, all of which to some degree where never available back in the day. So is the issue that the 4054’s are so visually different or do they represent such a performance advantage over the 43mm units that make them so “Not In The Spirit”
If the fitting these forks is not in the spirit of the ERA, where does that leave us with;
- Aftermarket ignitions
- Adjustable rear shocks
- PD Valves
- 2000 onward build replacement carburettors
- Aftermarket exhaust systems
- Aftermarket reed valve systems
- Excell rims & HD stainless Steel Spokes.

You can’t be half pregnant. Why is it that no one seems to bat an eye lid at late model Ohlins or Excell rims?

[BAHNZY]

LWC82PE
The ACIR Stickers were the first stickers (that I could find) that refer to the 4054. So far as I can work out, ACIR stands for Anti Cavitation ? ?
What year that was introduced I am not sure, the stickers just looked good.

[firko]

Firko I can't find any reference to 'available' or 'freely available'  I can only find 18.7.14.2, 18.7.14.3 and 18.7.14.4 in the 08 MoMS. .3 states 'Modifications using later equipment are not allowed but .4 states "All components are to be from the period the machine was manufactured". Which contradict each other a bit.

Lozza You say tomato, I say tomayto......It's all word games. I think it's all irrelevent whether a component was "used in open competition", "freely available" or merely "available" in a given period of time. It's all the same. If the component was from a motorcycle offered for sale prior the designated year cutoff it must be allowed whether it was used on a bike "in open competition" or to ride to the 7-11 for a packet of ciggys. 

[LWC82PE]

Why is it that no one seems to bat an eye lid at late model Ohlins or Excell rims?

I dont know why, but its not just ohlins, there are several other brands out there that are of designs not available back then.

I dont have a problem with shocks with external damping adjustments if they are from the period they are in. There are a couple brands around pre 85 that had external adjustments so i dont think a blanket ban can be put on external adjustments.

Shocks contribute a lot ot the performance of a bike but your virually allowed to run what ever you want even though they may look out of place or not fit the era, yet the 4054's which i feel do just fit in the 84 period seem to not be accepted.

On the otherhand for me its important the bike looks right so i do not mind if you have PD valves or high tech internal engine mods or ingnitions as they are not seen.

It would be virtually impossible to police those things unless scrutineers pulled apart every set of forks and engine, so as those things are not seen i think its fine to allow them but wouldnt you feel a lot better and true to yourself knowing you won a race without the need for fancy internal fork or engine mods and you were riding a bike with the technology available back then 

[JohnnyO]

Why is it that no one seems to bat an eye lid at late model Ohlins or Excell rims?

Looking at the rule book it appears that shocks are free to use whatever you want. Because shocks blow, wear out, rust, bend or break and NOS std shocks are not available it seems logical to be able to use whatever is on the market to suit a vintage bike. Since the rule was written externally adjustable shocks have come onto the market. I don't know whether the rule needs to be updated or not.. externally adjustable shocks work no better than correctly valved non adjustable shocks but they do look more modern.
What's the performance advantage in using Excell rims? Again it's a matter of what is available.. NOS rims from the 70's are a little scarce.

[BAHNZY]

Johhny O,
My take.

Looking at the rule book it appears that shocks are free to use whatever you want.
There is no reference to shock absorbers for EVO and Pre85 (that I can find) in the GCR’s. If there is an interpretation of them, it would be appreciated if someone could please pass them on.

Because shocks blow, wear out, rust, bend or break and NOS std shocks are not available it seems logical to be able to use whatever is on the market to suit a vintage bike.
Agree, but it is just as economical, if not more economical to have the original units overhauled or use period available aftermarket units such as Koni, Works Performance, Ohlins, Mulholland etc.

Externally adjustable shocks work no better than correctly valved non adjustable shocks but they do look more modern.
Agree/Disagree. The non adjustable shocks are as good as the adjustable units only on a given track. One week on a grass track and they are fine, the next week on a MX track, they would need to be revalved. An externally adjustable shock would need nothing more than the turn of a dial.

What's the performance advantage in using Excell rims?
Ask some of the guys that have raced VIPER in the last few years. Bent & Broken rims are not common, but we have seen more than we care to given the results of what could happen on the downside of a jump.

[holeshot buddy]

i have been watching this for a while now
being a kx500 owner and racer
i have to agree with 090 and johnny o
i feel its not in the spirit of the era and class
sure people try to bend the rules in certain areas but
 the problem is its very obvious to look at
i raced A grade back through the early eightys and i never saw
aftermarket wp forks fitted no one bothered and they were only availiable on 84 ktms
with drum, simons forks were availiable trevor flood sold them but not many were used
before 85 ,vandenberg tried them but took them off and went back to oem kitted
most forks ran white power internal kits with external adj
if someone runs a set of simons they are period correct
if they can afford to buy them then its ok
i know were i can get a set of wp usd disc forks
but i wouldnt bother unless i was putting them on a pre 90
my standard kx500 forks work fine the bike won the state
pre 85 championship so they cant be that bad
pre 85 shocks yes you can run ohlins or white power
they were availiable then so no issue there
actually the rear shock is more important than forks
in that era
there is also the problem of people putting modern internals
in these forks as well which is stretching it
or running mid eighties cartridge forks
which are heaps better than any pre85 forks

[evo550]

All the talk of changing the caliper area to suit a drum brake setup or finding out if White power had a set of forks avaliable for an '84 kx500 is irrelivent when these particular forks are stamped with a 1986 part number. Built in 1986, not pre '85 legal. Simple.

Take it to your next club and have some fun on it.

[BAHNZY]

These particular forks are stamped with a 1986 part number. Built in 1986, not pre '85 legal. Simple.

I guess this is where i was trying to get to. (Based on EVO550's reply)
"If the component was manafactured Post 31st December 1984 then it is not eligible to be used"


Take it to your next club and have some fun on it.
Pretty much where i'll be with it.

[mc 61]

G'day Bahnsy,whats right with it is it looks great and can't wait to see you line up next to Hoony at barabool and hopefully with its brother too!!!!!!!!!