Messages

76

Competition / Re: Rule re-write.

« on: February 13, 2014, 09:42:35 am »

Now that lots of people's brains have exploded, here's the same rules with annotations in blue. (The blue bits aren't part of the rules - they help people understand the changes).

16.11 MACHINE ELIGIBILITY
16.11.1 Eligible Machines
16.11.1.1    Only machines conforming to the requirements set out in chapter 16 will be accepted for competition.
16.11.1.2    The onus of proof of eligibility shall rest wholly upon the rider or entrant of the machine. Service and parts manual publication dates are not proof of eligibility.

16.15.7 Acceptable machines and components:
All Eras: (this saves repeating a whole lot of stuff for every category)
a) Major Components are: Frame, swing arm, forks, wheel hubs, triple clamps, engine cases, cylinder(s), and cylinder head(s). A machine's era will be defined by its newest major component. (defining the major components is important - it makes the difference between "do I need to use old tyres?" and "can I fit the forks off my 2005 Honda?")
b) Any major component that is visually similar and operationally indistinguishable from the original will be accepted regardless of the date of manufacture. (I am not happy with "similar" - the word "identical" is too strict for minor differences like casting changes, but "similar" is too vague. Open to input on that one!
This bit also replaces the need to specifically allow identical carry-over models)
ba) Any major component that is visually similar and operationally indistinguishable from aftermarket components available in the era, will be accepted regardless of the date of manufacture. (As above)
c) Any modifications to major components must be using principles and techniques that were available in the era the machine is entered in. (just stops loop-holing tactics)
d) Rear shock absorbers will be in the original position(s), using the original mounting points. (As well as avoiding repeating the same thing over and over again, this kills the "single-shock to twin-shock Evo" bike argument dead)
da) Folding footrests must be fitted.
(I killed "exhaust must follow original lines" because it achieves nothing.
I killed the "must meet the noise test" stuff because its already in 16c)


Pre 60 Solo. This class is intended to represent the formative era of motocross. (Weakly worded - needs input from the old hands).
16.15.7.1     The pre 60 class is for machines that closely represent those built up to (and including) 1959 models.
16.15.7.3    Front wheel travel will not exceed 178mm (7 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited to 102mm (4 inches) measured at the axle.
16.15.7.4    Plastic and fibreglass is not permitted.
16.15.7.6     Period carburettors or Amal Mk1 Concentric.
16.15.7.7         Reed valves are not permitted. (Kind of redundant, but added for clarity)

Pre 65 Solo. This class is intended to represent the first generation of purpose-built motocross bikes. (Again, weakly worded pre-amble - input please)
16.15.8.1    The pre 65 class is for machines that closely represent those that were built up to (and including) 1964 models.
16.15.8.3    Front wheel travel will not exceed 178mm (7 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited to 102mm (4 inches) measured at the axle.
16.15.8.6    Carburettors of any type pre 75 round slide may be used.
16.15.8.7         Reed valves are not permitted. (as for Pre-60)

Pre 70. This class is intended to represent the era where 4-stroke machines lost their dominance and 2-stroke machines became dominant. (Ditto)
16.15.9.1     The pre 70 class is for machines that closely represent those built up to (and including) 1969 models.
16.15.9.2     Front wheel travel will not exceed 178mm (7 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited to 102mm (4 inches) measured at the axle.
16.15.9.4     Carburettors; any type of pre 75 round slide may be used.
16.15.9.5     Reed valves are not permitted.
16.15.9.9    Yamaha XS1 and XS650 engines are eligible.
16.15.9.10    Acceptable follow on models:  AJS Stormer 250;  Greeves griffon models; Yamaha AT1, DT1, CT1, RT1 without reed valve induction. (tightening up the wording slightly)

Pre 75 Solo. This class is intended to represent the last of the short travel suspension era.
16.15.10.1    The pre 75 class is for machines that closely represent those built up to (and including) 1974 models.
16.15.10.2    Front wheel travel will not exceed 178mm (7 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited to 102mm (4 inches) measured at the axle.
16.15.10.4    Carburettors; any type of pre 75 round slide may be used.
16.15.10.5    XS1 and XS650 engines are eligible.
16.15.10.9    Acceptable follow on models pre 75:
    Honda CR125M1, XL250K1, XL350K1, MT250 (all) and MT125 (all)
    Yamaha YZ360B, DT250B,
    Suzuki TS400 (all).

Pre 78 Solo and Women's Pre-78. This class is intended to represent the transition era between the short travel Pre-75 machines and the long travel Evo machines.
16.15.11.1    The pre 78 class is for machines that closely represent those built up to (and including) 1977 models.
16.15.11.2    Front wheel travel will not exceed 229mm (9 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited to 229mm (9 inches) measured at the axle. (I want to change this to 10", but in the spirit of not changing the regs, I have resisted...)
16.15.11.4    Carburettors; any type of pre 78 round slide may be used.
16.15.11.8     Acceptable follow on models pre 78

    CZ 125 1978, CZ400 1978,
    Montesa VB, (ditched the "must comply with suspension limits bit" because the bike has to comply with 16.15.11.2 and 16.11.1.1)
    Yamaha TT500 1978 (is this correct?)


Evolution. This class is intended to represent the era of long suspension travel, before water-cooling, disc brakes and linkage rear suspension became dominant.
16.15.12.1    The Evo class is for machines that use drum brakes, air-cooling and non-linkage rear suspension, as was commonplace until 1981. It also allows for later machines up to (and including) 1985 models that retained this technology. (yes, 1985. Locking Evo into an era kills off the SexMax and any variation of it, without harming any of the 'real' Evo bikes. It still allows the later Evo Huskies, later CZs, and DT175s(!) )
e) Evolution class bikes must have  No linkage suspension, No disk brakes, and Air cooled motors.
16.15.12.4    Carburettors; period flat slide carburettors and any round slide carburettor may be used.
16.15.12.9    The handlebars must be equipped with a protection pad on the cross bar. Handlebars not fitted with a cross bar must be equipped with a protection pad located in the middle of the handlebars covering the handlebar clamps. (not sure if this is supposed to be on the older eras too? Just repeating what's in the current rules).
f) Front forks must be of the non-USD type, where the fork seal(s) move with the front axle. (stops Simmons USDs and 84 KTM USDs).
(I've written this using Dave Tanner's interpretation which was basically 'we don't care if it came from a linkage/water-cooled/disc braked bike, provided the end result has drums, air and no link'. I don't personally agree, but its the closest we've got to an answer to that long running question, so I used it).


Pre 85 Solo This class is intended to represent the era of the first generation of disc front brakes, water cooling, linkage rear suspension and exhaust power valves became commonplace.
16.15.13.1    The pre 85 class is for machines that closely represent those built up to (and including) 1984 models.
16.15.13.2     Carburettors; pre-85 flat slide carburettors and any round slide carburettor may be used.
16.15.13.7    The handlebars must be equipped with a protection pad on the cross bar. Handlebars not fitted with a cross bar must be equipped with a protection pad located in the middle of the handlebars covering the handlebar clamps.

Pre 90 Solo This class is intended to represent the era where rear disc brakes, upside down forks, and the second generation of exhaust power valves became common place. (by second generation PVs, I'm talking about the multi-element ones like KIPS and HPP, rather than YPVS and ATAC).
16.15.14.1    The pre 90 class is for machines that closely represent those built up to (and including) 1989 models.
16.15.14.2    Carburettors; period flat slide carburettors and any round slide carburettor may be used.
16.15.14.7    The handlebars must be equipped with a protection pad on the cross bar. Handlebars not fitted with a cross bar must be equipped with a protection pad located in the middle of the handlebars covering the handlebar clamps.

(I know sod-all about sliders and sidecars, and there doesn't seem to be much stress around them, so I assume the rules for those are pretty well right?)
16.16 SLIDERS
16.16.1 Slider Frames
16.16.1.1    The frame must:

    Have a conventional swing arm rear suspension with twin shock absorbers,
    Have a front wheel diameter of 23”,
    Have a rear wheel diameter of 19”,
    Have rear tyres with a maximum tread pattern depth of 8mm,
    Not be fitted with leading-link front forks.

16.16.2 Slider Solo Engines
16.16.2.1    The slider engine must:

    Be a single cylinder,
    When four stroke be 2- valve push rod operation,
    Have a single spark plug,
    Be vertical in the chassis,
    Be fitted with a round slide carburettor, or
    Be a period two stroke compatible with class entered.

16.16.3 Slider Gearbox: Classic Long Track
16.16.3.1    The gearbox must have at least two gears.
16.16.4 Slider Sidecar Frames
16.16.4.1    Conventional type frames as used prior to 31st December 1976 must be used.
16.16.5 Slider Sidecar Engines
16.16.5.1    Engines must have been manufactured before 31st December 1976.
16.17 SIDECARS
16.17.1 All Classes
16.17.1.1    Left -hand and right -hand sidecars may compete against each other in Classic Motocross.
16.17.2 Frames and Parts
16.17.2.1    For the Pre-1975 classes, all performance parts except frames must be manufactured before 31st December 1974 and must comply with the following:

        Wheel track measurement, taken between the longitudinal centres of the rear and sidecar wheels must be between 810mm and 1100mm,
        The minimum ground clearance must be 175mm unladen,
        The maximum lean of the motorcycle at saddle height mustbe 50mm,
        The dimensions of the sidecar baseboard in plain view, taken from a line drawn no further rearwards than the lowest point of the front down-tube to the forward most point of the sidecar wheel tyre and terminating no further rearwards than a line drawn at right angles to the machine from the rearmost point of the rear tyre, must be:
            At least 760mm long adjacent to the sidecar wheel,
            At least 300mm wide with at least 25mm radius to all corners.
        There must be no more than 50mm between baseboard and motorcycle and between baseboard and sidecar wheel. The baseboard must be arranged so as not to allow the passenger’s feet to be trapped,
        There must be no less than 4 sidecar attachment points,
        Stirrup fitting for the passenger’s feet are not permitted,
        Handholds:
            Must be finished with a loop of at least 100mm,
            Must not project beyond a line taken with the outer edge of the sidecar mudguard or bodywork,
            Adjacent to the nose section of the sidecar and less than 200mm from the track surface must be at an angle of at least 45° from the horizontal.
        The rear end of the rear wheel mudguard must terminate not more than 65° above a horizontal line drawn through the rear wheel axle and be valanced to baseboard level on the inside,
        The sidecar mudguard must cover at least 135° of the periphery of the wheel and be valanced to baseboard level on the inside,
        No machine may be fitted with scoop or paddle tyres,
        Suspension travel must not exceed:
            152mm (6”) 178mm (7”) measured at the front axle,
            102mm (4”) at the rear axle.
        Rear tyre width must not exceed 135mm (5.3”),
        Brakes:
            Front – single caliper, single disc may be fitted provided they were manufactured before 31st December 1974,
            Rear – rear disc brakes may be used provided they were fitted as standard equipment for that particular combination.

    Only round-slide carburettors manufactured within the relevant period may be used,
    Engine capacity must be up to 1300cc.

16.17.2.2    Pre-1985 is for sidecars constructed with motors manufactured before 31st December 1984.
16.17.2.3    A lanyard operated ignition cut-out switch, operating on the primary circuit, must be fitted to the following with a maximum length of one metre:
DISCIPLINE
   
MACHINE
Motocross    Sidecars
Dirt track    Sidecars
16.17.2.4    Pre-1968 will be for sidecars constructed from road going frames and all major components are those commercially available within the period.
16.17.2.5    The following table sets out the machines and components which eligibility scrutineers may use as a guide in determining eligibility. Entrants must prove eligibility of machines not listed below.
MAKE
   
MODEL(S)
Wasp    All up to and including RT2, RT8 and RT14
Hagon    All up to 31st December 1974
Yamaha    XS 650 all models
Honda    Any K series
Norton    All 750, 850 to Mk2 only
Westlake    All up to 850cc and 31st December 1974
Triumph    All up to T150
CCM    All BSA B50 based models

77

General Discussion / Re: Thanks for the ride

« on: February 12, 2014, 08:20:59 pm »

Bill did come fishing with me but at the end of the day he said "DJ you can stick that fishing right up your ....." So nope he ain't fishing with me but like a salty old sea dog can't stay away from the sea I know Bill is like that with bikes.
Bill, thanks for all the good times we have shared over the last 10yrs of VMX and even though times have changed I believe that new focuses and positive attitudes will see the way forward for a better VMX scene. But as you say, it takes time and effort and a passion for the sport.
We who do nothing should expect nothing, and those who complain should commit, yet those who race and ride have all the fun, after all it is the same old dirt and the same old bikes.
You will be missed on here but then again as the old saying goes, "their loss our gain".

78

Competition / Re: Rule re-write.

« on: February 10, 2014, 09:29:30 pm »

very very good that simple but again to be period correct you need a period and then you can have a newer era

Nathan has already put an era in for Evo. 1982
There already is an era or period with those rules because basically there were no more improvements to a bike built with Non Linkage and Drum-brakes and Aircooled motor.

79

Competition / Re: Rule re-write.

« on: February 10, 2014, 07:42:27 pm »

    Evolution class bikes must have been manufactured with Non Linkage suspension and Drum-brakes and Aircooled motors.
All parts from those bikes are permissible as are all after-market parts of this era.
 a) Modifying your bike with other major parts from a newer era is not allowed.

These words mean you can have period correct "works" parts and period correct after-market parts like, water-cooling and all the other hot bling items from that era. It also means that you can't use parts from a Pre85 era bike or newer if it's a major part which are already defined in the rules.
This I believe show cases the era or period of what we call Evo VMX with its long travel suspension and also what hop-up/after-market parts were available at the time.

80

Competition / Re: Rule re-write.

« on: February 09, 2014, 10:37:59 pm »

Leave the pre78 class alone, 9 inches is plenty, not everybody wants to cut up a perfectly good bike to give it more travel....and de-value it at the same time. If you change the travel to 10 inches, you will loose more bikes than you gain. This is not 20/20 cricket. If you put a pre75 bike next to a pre78 and EVO you can see a remarked difference....it looks right to the punters as far as telling them apart, give pre78 more travel and they will look like EVO bikes. EVO should not have any parts off a linkage bike, including making 1979 CR500's etc. Remember the more rules, the more drama's, generally it's only minor tweaks that need to happen. Don't forget the 2004 KX500 in pre90 . .I would like to see period water cooled kits being allowed to be used, lets face it, they probably add 5kg's to the bike [and on the forks where you don't want it], they wont be any advantage as we mostly do 3/4 lap races and 6/7 at the Nats...in real terms they will probably make the bike slower. No home made kits though or adapting later model parts to fit. I think it would add some "cool" to our sport.....maybe there are other period mods that where done that aren't allowed that could be?. I don't think swingarms/frames need to have shock mounts altered, most bikes can get extra travel by putting longer shocks on. Some of the bikes that turn up to meetings would scare the crap out of me if I was in the same race and knew oldmate that couldn't weld to save himself had just added long travel suspension to his bike with his $6.95 welder he just bought from Aldi and was now testing it....when it goes bang and takes out half the field....who is responsible, I as a qualified scrutineer would run a hundred miles at seeing a home LTR conversion....you would put clubs in a bad situation and I'm sure MA would not be happy Jan..... Remember, we are in the age of litigation fella's, even re-writing these rules you would want a disclaimer....protect yourself and the club....and before the Kiwi's jump on board, NZ is a totally different kettle of fish than Australia.

All good points John but this kiwi has already been on-board for a while 
What ever the out come of this, the rules need to be very clear and self explanatory for the newbie (not the old hands) so once read they can walk away knowing what classes a bike fits into as well as what can and can't be done to a VMX bike. There should be no asking of what rule 16.......... means.

81

Competition / Re: Rule re-write.

« on: February 09, 2014, 09:53:50 pm »

I take it that you can now modify a pre75 bike to race in Pre 78 ?

That was the idea. The existing rules are unworkable, in that if you have a '74 model bike with a 75 model motor or forks (or whatever), it has to run as an Evo bike. The "75/76/77 models only" rule served no useful purpose, and created some unresolvable situations.

This ties in with Johnny O's point about modded shock mounts... Personally, I think that pre-75 bikes with lay-down rear shocks should be allowed to run in Pre-78. But I wasn't trying to change the rules, just make them clearer and simpler.

Totally agree with you on that.

16.15.8.5    Engines and gearboxes must remain externally unchanged.
Could this have a small exception to the rule ??


16.15.8.5    Engines and gearboxes must remain externally unchanged unless a two stroke oil pump has been removed ??

82

Competition / Re: Rule re-write.

« on: February 09, 2014, 09:33:53 pm »

16.15.11.1    The pre 78 class is for machines that closely represent those built up to (and including) 1977 models.

I take it that you can now modify a pre75 bike to race in Pre 78 ?

83

Competition / Re: Rule re-write.

« on: February 09, 2014, 09:23:41 pm »

Nathan, excellent work. I hope that everyone reads them and replies with sensible questions and answers.

e) Evolution class bikes must have  No linkage suspension, No disk brakes, and Air cooled motors.
Could this be worded a little different so that it leaves in no doubt what it means?
Maybe,
    Evolution class bikes must have been manufactured with Twinshocked or cantilevered rear suspension and Aircooled motors and Drumbrakes. All parts from those bikes are permissible as are after-market parts of this era.
 a) Modifying your bike with other major parts from a different technology or era is not allowed.

Yes I know it's long winded but it is very self explanatory and I think very water tight. Anyway just a thought and obviously open for discussion re the old and new interpretation of the existing rules.

84

Competition / Re: Works bikes

« on: October 30, 2013, 12:28:22 pm »

Just a note Mark.. the old 31 December "rule" has gone.. it now reads...Acceptable for the pre 78 classes are machines and components that are limited to the 1975, 1976, 1977 models alone. The only exception to this rule is where the model remains unaltered after this date... See you guys in a couple of days... the pub in Boonah does great meals..

Shhhhh ........ You'll have one scrutineer very worried about that, maybe putting works parts on a Pre75 bike won't make it a pre78 bike after all. (Not my rules) just saying.    
I hope everyone has a very good weekend at the nationals and good luck to everyone.
DJRacing

85

Competition / Re: Works bikes

« on: October 28, 2013, 08:53:36 pm »

And I was just about to pass the fat bugger.

What I wanna know Joan, is WTF were you doing behind him in the first place   

86

General Discussion / Re: Pre 91 dissapointing in NZ

« on: October 28, 2013, 08:42:52 pm »

Paul552 there is a secret to racing faster. Go out on the booze the night before the race but make sure your fellow competitors are drinking too. Make sure they drink 3 to your 1 with the odd top shelf thrown in and the next day you'll ride like a champ, or at least your fellow competitors will think so     

87

General Discussion / Re: Pre 91 dissapointing in NZ

« on: October 28, 2013, 08:10:59 pm »

You told me you hate harleys and you were not to keen on the 1950s 
[/quote]

    
Com'on Bill a Harley in the 50's and I would've been cool. Just like James Dean 

88

General Discussion / Re: Pre 91 dissapointing in NZ

« on: October 28, 2013, 08:03:23 pm »

Bill you might be right about the track but if their were a lot more pre91 bikes racing I'm sure the track would suffer to the detriment of the older classes but hey, it's motocross !

Paul552, I guess the passion between the old guard losing what they know and started, to the younger guard pushing for what they want, and that's why the debates are passionate. Plus I also think it can be difficult for most of us to explain ourselves on a written forum as most of us aren't writers, hence things can get taken the wrong way and no one can see the others point of view, but pick on small aspects of what they have said.

89

General Discussion / Re: Pre 91 dissapointing in NZ

« on: October 28, 2013, 07:37:51 pm »

I don't get it?
Why do people seem so passionate about pre 90 yes/no debate?

If it brings some new people, surely it's a good thing?

I was thinking about a thread "why do you hate pre 90"

Who are you referring too?  If me, then I can answer for myself that I don't hate any bikes, or any eras.

90

General Discussion / Re: Pre 91 dissapointing in NZ

« on: October 28, 2013, 07:07:14 pm »

How long have you been offering a Pre-91 class?
How well publicised has it been?

Don't know the politics of NZ VMX, but as a general statement:
You can't spend five years hanging shit on an era and the people who are passionate about it, and then expect them to come running like obedient little puppies when you finally, grudgingly offer them a class...

Nathan, here in NZ Pre90/91 has always been on offer. It has never been disallowed/discouraged or for that matter hung shit on. Anyone can run a meeting with what ever classes they want.
There was never a begrudgingly move to Pre91.
Passionate people would have there passions all ready to go at a moments notice I would have thought, but then again passion can be a spur of the moment thing I guess.