OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nathan S on September 30, 2009, 04:58:08 pm
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... at least, not as well as these guys!
http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/
I'm lost for words - its beyond awesome.
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my car ended up at 112000 usd del to australia,with a 427 alloy engine and 5 speed
now were can i get 112000 usd from
cheers
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Wow!!!
"Kirkham Motorsports was founded in 1995 with the mission to build the finest replicas in the world. It all began when brothers, David and Thomas Kirkham, were restoring their own Cobra,CSX3104. At the same time, a relative bought and imported a Polish fighter jet and invited them to see this relic of the Cold War. As the brothers looked at the airplane, they couldn't help but notice the striking similarities between it and CSX3104. They wondered if the people who built the plane could build an exact replica of a Cobra. They found the name of the manufacturer and sent them a fax. The simple note they scribbled read, "Can you guys build an aluminum bodied car?" Within 12 hours, they received the reply, "No problem."
A week later, David was on an airplane to Warsaw with an English-Polish dictionary, a toy model of a Cobra, and a dream. He spent a week scouting the factory and exploring their manufacturing abilities. He saw a silent factory with idle machines. The enormous factory had produced aircraft for over 60 years. During the tour, David knew this was the place he wanted to build cars."
Love this bit They found the name of the manufacturer and sent them a fax. The simple note they scribbled read, "Can you guys build an aluminum bodied car?" Within 12 hours, they received the reply, "No problem." 8) :)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/OzVMX/gp018.jpg)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/OzVMX/gp019.jpg)
But if ya gonna build replica's why not.......
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/OzVMX/Jaguar_D-Type_1966.jpg)
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I just read The Book on the Ellison car from start to finish.
Absolutely mind-blowing. The workmanship and sheer amount of CAD and milling is almost beyond belief. That car must have cost one HECK of a lot of money...
Do try to find some time to read it. Every page leaves you shaking your head in amazement.
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I just read The Book on the Ellison car from start to finish.
Me too, what a great read!....That's one very cool car. The 427 Cobra has always been my dream car and now this masterpiece has taken the concept to another level. A friends brother is building a fibreglass Cobra kit car using a 302 Windsor with Webers, Jag front and rear suspension and all the period stuff. It's turning out really nicely but the Kirkham Cobra makes it look like a beige Sigma in comparison. I sent him the link.
I love the D Type Jag and 40 Ford convertible too.
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I love 'trick' stuff as much as the next guy, but that thing is just a rich mans folly [not that there is anything wrong with that]. It has more in common with the Howard Hughes Spruce Goose than cutting edge [and appropriate] automotive engineering.
As an exercise in showing what you can do with CNC tooling and way too much time and money it is a raging success but it doesn't have one iota of soul.
As an advertisment to show what can be done it works well, but otherwise it makes Dutch Twin-shockers look very 'era sensitive'.
I read the whole thing and enjoyed it but the lasting image of that Holley carb with the $40.00 airfilter proudly sitting up ready to suck all the hot air from the engine bay did make me smirk.
I would like to be there when Ellison pulls up at a road side cafe next to some real hot-rodders in that thing - he will fit right in… Gotta love the Nouveau Riche.
VMX42
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The skies are going to open up and I'll be sucked into a black hole vortex for this but........I agree with Jeff. I don't deny everything I wrote in my previous email about the coolness of the Ellison Cobra but Jeffs 'lack of soul' observation got me thinking. I'm one of those petrol head tragics who see personality (or soul to you believers) in otherwise inanimate vehicles. More often than not a built up vehicle whether it be bike, car, boat or skateboard will reflect a lot of the builders personality. The Ellison Cobra is, to my way of thinking too perfect, too precise in it's execution. It's a shrine to billet CNC and the owners ability to spend money. To me the hot rod spirit that inspired Carrol Shelbys original Cobra by sticking a red hot 289 into a British AC that previously housed a breathless Bristol engine is the very essesence of being a car guy. That's why those TV hot rod shows where Boyd Coddington, Chip Foose et al throw shelves full of warehouse bought new parts at some old rust bucket leave me cold. The ingenuity that emerges from building to a strict budget is what turns me on. Buying a ready made chassis and bolting on more ready made bling accessories (al la West Coast Choppers) creates a perfect end result that sadly lacks any of the builders personality. My mates brothers Cobra kit car with it's little cast iron 289 and period wrecking yard procured parts such as a Jag rear end and Mitsubishi L300 front suspension is more to my liking.
One thing I tend to disagree with Jeff on is his tongue in cheek observation of how Ellisons Cobra will be recieved by Hot Rodders at the Drive In restaurant. I think that they'd go apeshit over it. Despite the Cobras mega dollar lack of soul, it's still a very cool and beautifully executed piece of engineering that any guy who's ever handled a Sidchrome couldn't help to appreciate.
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I think it has enormous soul! It is truly beautiful.
It meets the old Henry Royce target of "Strive for perfection in everything you do. Take the best that exists and make it better. When it does not exist, design it." (and the early Rolls Royce were absolutely nothing BUT the toy of the insanely rich, as the chassis alone was in the million-dollar range).
Intense effort, intelligence and artistry went into the Ellison Cobra.
Underlying any doubts about it are just our personal twinges of jealousy, that none of us will ever own the thing.
Appreciate it. Wonder at it. Now look at what you drive :-[
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Appreciate it. Wonder at it. Now look at what you drive :-[
A beige 1984 Holden shuttle van...... :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Appreciate it. Wonder at it. Now look at what you drive
I've done all of those things and I'm pleased that I drive a rare and exotic classic that is as reliable as a beige Kingswood, can be parked anywhere, is drop dead gorgeous (to my eyes) turns heads wherever I take her and most importantly cost a miniscule percentage of what the Ellison Cobra cost. I love it.
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HI Luke,
Yes, in one way it is perfect, but it is also so flawed in others as to be almost funny. The concept of a CNC machined chassis is laughable, there is not one single benefit in doing it that way [except for showing that it could be done].
If you want to compare materials directly, then a simple aluminium honeycomb monocoque chassis using 70's technology would have been vastly superior. It would be significantly lighter, vastly cheaper and the resultant structure would be much more rigid and not require the intense effort that you describe.
The Rolls Royce philosophy that you speak of deals with the benefits of simple pure design, using appropriate materials [and in appropriate ways and places]. A simple aluminium tube, gram for gram is stronger and more rigid than any piece of CNC machined solid [that spans the same distance] and old tech laminate structures blow the tube out of the water.
What they have done is to take a flawed concept and made it work with an inordinate amount of detail. But it is detail that is required because the design and construction method are not appropriate for the purpose - please don't confuse over-engineering with great design - they are not the same thing. Good design seeks to simplify and remove any extraneous material, over engineering simply tries to mask the previous error with more complexity [and the subsequent snowball effect that follows]. I would love to see it put on a chassis jig and have its torsional stiffness rated - I don't think it would rate very highly. And lets not talk about comparative costs of construction.
The body work is beautiful and full of the sole of the workers who formed it, but the chassis is a maze of over detailed substructures, each trying to mask the mistakes of each other.
An example of the type of thinking I am trying to describe is probably well illustrated one simple process that took place during the Cold War Space Race between the US an the USSR. Both countries knew that their astronauts needed a reliable tool to write with in space [for navigation calculations etc]. The US spend untold millions of dollars trying to invent a pen that would write zero gravity, they put teams of their best engineers on the task and spend years trying to perfect it. The Russians simply gave their Cosmonauts pencils.
That is a good design solution vs over engineering. The US spent a fortune trying to make a flawed concept work without looking for a simple solution to the problem. You can't always throw money at a problem and expect a superior result. Mostly the extra money just means extra complications and management issues, but it is the way in the US where bigger is always better.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Cobra [especially the body work], but I think they got caught up in the process of construction and the end result whilst beautiful in its complexity shouldn't be confused with a considered, elegant [and potentially timeless] design solution to the problem. It will make a beautiful museum piece in the future, but it won't change the way cars are constructed [except for the mega rich wanna-bees].
VMX 42
P.S. don't worry Firko, it probably won't happen again…
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P.S. don't worry Firko, it probably won't happen again…
It did. :o
Jeff, you articulated so very well the point I had intended to make before I got carried away with the spiritual side of car construction. Methinks too many people confuse over engineering with good engineering. The original tubular steel space frame used by Carrol Shelby is a masterpiece of simple engineering used to good effect. The billet car is a good example of over engineering for the sake of showing off. I still think the workmanship is magnificent and agree (!!) with Jeff that the bodybuilders are indeed masters of the English wheel. It's just that I find this car to be a mechanical "War and Peace" when a 4 page brochure would have done the same job. ;D
Despite the overkill, I'd still park it under my carport without hesitation.
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After venting my spleen, I went back and took another look at the book and I now think I was a bit over the top. The chassis looks great, but it is really overworked. But the pages on the bodywork are simply fantastic.
Don't get me wrong, I would have it in the shed, but if I had an open choice of all the desirable vehicles in the world, then it would be pretty far down the list. That doesn't diminish the effort that went into it, or the craftsmanship of the guys that toiled over it, I just think it is over done. But that body work is just a masterpiece.
It is obvious to all who take the time to look at the book that this thing would cost a truely serious amount of coin. But in rereading it the casual way they mentioned having to buy a much bigger CNC mill because the chassis rails [they only made 4 of them] wouldn't fit in their existing machine shows that it must have cost pure megabucks. I wonder if they would do a foreign order of a couple of alloy tanks for some of my restos - if they added it to Ellisons bill surely he wouldn't notice?
Am I jealous, actually no. Do I appreciate it, yes, you would have to be mad not too, but I think my Spruce Goose analogy is pretty accurate.
But then again, I can't wait to see what they do next…
VMX42
P.S. Sorry Firko, but I think you inadvertently agreed with me again. This has to stop… or people will talk!!
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Impressive work but I'm not sure a billet chassis would be the way to go either as I can't imagine it would have the right amount of flex.
I was trying to have this same conversation with "Hughsy" a while back but he just ignored me, staring into space like a stuffed dummy or something.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/SpruceGoose-1.jpg)
Mind you I wouldn't mind a few cashed up customers like that.
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One of the guys at the Benz club once said something along the lines of "An automobile has to have soul. Otherwise it's just a f#*king car!"
Call it 'soul', 'style', 'character' or whatever you like. Some cars have a certain something that you can't put your finger on.
Not sure this sort of stuff falls has that. :-\
Just bought another car yesterday that has "soul". It looks like a heap of shit, but it really makes me smile to drive it. ;)
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I think that the billet chassis is probably a pretty good (albeit horrifically expensive) way to build a decent handling car under a Cobra body.
I do appreciate the statements about a proper monocoque or a space-frame, but both would be badly compromised in an open-top car with opening doors. I suspect that the billet chassis is probably better than either, in this circumstance.
I'm not so sure about the 'soul' thing either. The pursuit of technical excellence requires a dedication and a passion that very, very few of us can muster. CAD and Solidworks make things easier, but they also raise the bar, and demand a lot more from the operator. The countles hours spent modelling the suspension alone, should not be devalued by the high quality of the finished product.
On an even more basic level, to actually finish the car to such a high standard shows a rare and uncommon patience - one that needs passion to sustain it.
Regardless, the constructors clearly wished to display their technical expertise, and they've clearly had a win on that one.
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Just bought another car yesterday that has "soul".
Really,? I never considered a Benz as much of a soul car ;D ;D
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Call it 'soul', 'style', 'character' or whatever you like. Some cars have a certain something that you can't put your finger on.
Call it 'perverse pleasure'; a bit like beating your head up against a brick wall - you know why you're doing it but everyone else is perplexed ::).
Hey, that sounds just like VMX :-X :-[ :o.
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Really,? I never considered a Benz as much of a soul car ;D ;D
I think that deserves an articulate, controlled response.........................
Get nicked, Geoff! :D :D :D :D :D :D
Yeah, well maybe 'soul' isn't a good description for my cars.
'Character' is probably more accurate............................. :-\
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Jeff, for you a classic URBAN MYTH (http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp) ;D. If it were an OSSA GP Phantom would it have drawn the same comments?
Unless you have a black belt in Solidworks/MasterCam I wouldn't pass judgement on the billet chassis . Programes like SolidWorks are P
part of the reason modern compnents are just so good these days. CNC work like that is cheap as these days(just email files to China) it looked like it was mostly simple 2D stuff which can even be done on a CNC router that makes kitchen cupboards.Compared to a space frame which would have to have 1 or more jigs made, tubes CNC 'fish-mouthed' and /or bent then finaly welded the billet option is looking better and better.
On the question if it's got soul, essence or such I reckon that would rapidly disappear once you nailed the throttle.
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Come on Lozza,
You can't deny a modern man his tools of trade - urban myths ??? and gross generalisations ::) are integral parts of internet forum participation.
I will try to do better next time [but I will probably fail ;D]!!
VMX42
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I suppose I shouldn't be too judgemental Tony, seeing as how I drive a bland white bench seat Commodore ute that's only bit of character comes from the roadkill dent
Unless you have a black belt in Solidworks/MasterCam I wouldn't pass judgement on the billet chassis .
Theirs no doubting their programming skills or the strength of the billet chassis, but their are many different attributes of a chassis / frame to consider.
Many structures are still bolted or riveted together so as to give them the capability of flex without fatigue.
Aeroplane wings spring to mind. This firm could probably mill up a billet wing but I doubt it would be successful.
A truck chassis needs to flex with its load, too stiff & it would crack.
Many motorbike & pushbike frames are considered to be flops if they are built too stiff
Then theirs the old steam engines which have many tubes running through the boiler. These tubes are peened into place rather than welded as even with today’s welding techniques the welds would still fail as they can’t cope with the expansion & contraction.
The body work impresses me no end, now theirs a black art for you, but just because something is machined from billet doesn’t mean it’s the best solution.
It is definitely a good show case for their skills but there are many companies around the world with this capability that don’t attract customers with too much money
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I repeat...
Methinks too many people confuse over engineering with good engineering.
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I thinks you guys have the 'bull by the tail' - the whole CNC chassis is all about looks not function (although I'm enjoying your interesting observations/informed comments).
And it looks incredible. I would buy it for looks alone and leave the car parked boot and bonnet up so rubbernecking passerbys could see the detail ;) ;D.
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Hey Graeme,
Don't get me wrong, I agree it looks S&%T Hot, no doubt. If the owner is happy then all is good, but I still have doubts about the method of construction and the rationale behind it.
As I said it is a great advertisment to show that it 'can be done', I just don't think you will see the major race teams embrace it as a viable construction method - too complicated [for complications sake], too slow [to build], too expensive, and heaven forbid that you ever had the misfortune to bent it.
Viewed in isolation it is a wonderful creation but I suppose the designs that float my boat are more in the John Britten style. Truly unique interpretations on the vehicle form, done with creativity, resourcefulness and ingenuity and not simply the product of a mega-budget. Very much the less is more philosophy [and isn't that just the aussie/NZ way].
For example the disproportionate number of Aussies/NZers that work in the major race teams around the globe where their ingenuity and creativity is highly valued and recognised as being fairly unique and wonderful trait.
I am happy to celebrate the many and varied differences in approach - as there are many ways to 'skin a cat'. - its just that this particular method would be a tediously slow, painful and expensive way [and I suspect John Britten would be turning in his grave].
VMX42
P.S. I have spent my life holding onto the bulls tail - nothing new there ;D ;D ;D
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For example the disproportionate number of Aussies/NZers that work in the major race teams around the globe where their ingenuity and creativity is highly valued and recognised as being fairly unique and wonderful trait.
I can't vouch for the veracity of the statement, but I was told with great certainty and authority that on a per capita bases Australia has seven times more Patent holders than any other nations. Sounds a mighty big call - I should check it out somehow. Sounds good anyway (in a very jingoistic way ::)).
(The guy that told had worked in the medical/dental/electronics industry and was drawing from his experience in that field. He made the conclusion that the Pommies 'shot themselves in the foot' when they exported the best and brightest and those with the most initiative, when they sent the convicts. Having a convict forebearer who did 14 years and ended up with 2000 acres, 4000 sheep at Yass and a 20yo (20 years his junior) Irish bride (and 6 children in 10 years - after the drought come the refreshing rains ;) :D). I would tend to agree with him ;D.) Not a bad trade off for an underdog peasant from cold wet dreary old Nottingham.
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The skies are going to open up and I'll be sucked into a black hole vortex for this but........I agree with Jeff. I don't deny everything I wrote in my previous email about the coolness of the Ellison Cobra but Jeffs 'lack of soul' observation got me thinking. I'm one of those petrol head tragics who see personality (or soul to you believers) in otherwise inanimate vehicles. More often than not a built up vehicle whether it be bike, car, boat or skateboard will reflect a lot of the builders personality. The Ellison Cobra is, to my way of thinking too perfect, too precise in it's execution. It's a shrine to billet CNC and the owners ability to spend money. To me the hot rod spirit that inspired Carrol Shelbys original Cobra by sticking a red hot 289 into a British AC that previously housed a breathless Bristol engine is the very essesence of being a car guy. That's why those TV hot rod shows where Boyd Coddington, Chip Foose et al throw shelves full of warehouse bought new parts at some old rust bucket leave me cold. The ingenuity that emerges from building to a strict budget is what turns me on. Buying a ready made chassis and bolting on more ready made bling accessories (al la West Coast Choppers) creates a perfect end result that sadly lacks any of the builders personality. My mates brothers Cobra kit car with it's little cast iron 289 and period wrecking yard procured parts such as a Jag rear end and Mitsubishi L300 front suspension is more to my liking.
One thing I tend to disagree with Jeff on is his tongue in cheek observation of how Ellisons Cobra will be recieved by Hot Rodders at the Drive In restaurant. I think that they'd go apeshit over it. Despite the Cobras mega dollar lack of soul, it's still a very cool and beautifully executed piece of engineering that any guy who's ever handled a Sidchrome couldn't help to appreciate.
That was, sniff, simply beautiful... ;D
And that, ladies and gents, is why I admire artisans.
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Good to know you are attached to your emotions Tim. Sniff…
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Yes Jeff I love snopes ;D
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I repeat...
Methinks too many people confuse over engineering with good engineering.
How do you build a better race/performance car into a Cobra body than they have?
I can see ways to do it cheaper, simpler and more easily.
But not better.
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... at least, not as well as these guys!
http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/
I'm lost for words - its beyond awesome.
Hello!
Luke was kind enough to forward me this link. Thanks for all the kind words that have been posted. I am happy to answer any questions you all might have.
Thanks!
David
:):):)
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I just read The Book on the Ellison car from start to finish.
Absolutely mind-blowing. The workmanship and sheer amount of CAD and milling is almost beyond belief. That car must have cost one HECK of a lot of money...
Do try to find some time to read it. Every page leaves you shaking your head in amazement.
Thanks for the kind words!
There was certainly a lot of work that went into the car. I am glad you liked it!
David
:):):)
David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports
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I love 'trick' stuff as much as the next guy, but that thing is just a rich mans folly [not that there is anything wrong with that]. It has more in common with the Howard Hughes Spruce Goose than cutting edge [and appropriate] automotive engineering.
As an exercise in showing what you can do with CNC tooling and way too much time and money it is a raging success but it doesn't have one iota of soul.
As an advertisment to show what can be done it works well, but otherwise it makes Dutch Twin-shockers look very 'era sensitive'.
I read the whole thing and enjoyed it but the lasting image of that Holley carb with the $40.00 airfilter proudly sitting up ready to suck all the hot air from the engine bay did make me smirk.
I would like to be there when Ellison pulls up at a road side cafe next to some real hot-rodders in that thing - he will fit right in… Gotta love the Nouveau Riche.
VMX42
Thanks for the comments! I do apprecitate them. Not everyone will have the same ideas of what is beautiful and what is worthwhile. I am cool with that. Different ideas are what makes the world go around. After having driven the car I am convinced it has soul.
The air cleaner is a K&N unit. The engine was moved back 6 inches from the original position of the motor so there was no room to put on a fuel injection system--the rear intakes would have had to suck air from under the windshield cowl.
David
:):):)
David Kirkham, President KMS
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The Ellison Cobra is, to my way of thinking too perfect, too precise in it's execution. It's a shrine to billet CNC and the owners ability to spend money. To me the hot rod spirit that inspired Carrol Shelbys original Cobra by sticking a red hot 289 into a British AC that previously housed a breathless Bristol engine is the very essesence of being a car guy.
Thanks for the kind words. I don't think the skies are going to open up and suck anyone in. I do appreciate your comments.
I think there is quite a bit of Kirkham Motorsports' personality in the build of the car. We have been making billet suspension parts for years and years. To me, the Hot Rod spirit is to have a dream and make something of it with whatever tools you have at hand.
David
David Kirkham, President
KMS
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I think it has enormous soul! It is truly beautiful.
It meets the old Henry Royce target of "Strive for perfection in everything you do. Take the best that exists and make it better. When it does not exist, design it." (and the early Rolls Royce were absolutely nothing BUT the toy of the insanely rich, as the chassis alone was in the million-dollar range).
Intense effort, intelligence and artistry went into the Ellison Cobra.
Underlying any doubts about it are just our personal twinges of jealousy, that none of us will ever own the thing.
Appreciate it. Wonder at it. Now look at what you drive :-[
Thanks for the kind words! I do appreciate them!
David
:):):)
David Kirkham, President
KMS
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Hello David,
I believe we should be thanking you for dropping in with your replies. 8)
Thank you for your time and congratulations on building dreams. :)
cheers
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HI Luke,
Yes, in one way it is perfect, but it is also so flawed in others as to be almost funny. The concept of a CNC machined chassis is laughable, there is not one single benefit in doing it that way [except for showing that it could be done].
If you want to compare materials directly, then a simple aluminium honeycomb monocoque chassis using 70's technology would have been vastly superior. It would be significantly lighter, vastly cheaper and the resultant structure would be much more rigid and not require the intense effort that you describe.
The Rolls Royce philosophy that you speak of deals with the benefits of simple pure design, using appropriate materials [and in appropriate ways and places]. A simple aluminium tube, gram for gram is stronger and more rigid than any piece of CNC machined solid [that spans the same distance] and old tech laminate structures blow the tube out of the water.
What they have done is to take a flawed concept and made it work with an inordinate amount of detail. But it is detail that is required because the design and construction method are not appropriate for the purpose - please don't confuse over-engineering with great design - they are not the same thing. Good design seeks to simplify and remove any extraneous material, over engineering simply tries to mask the previous error with more complexity [and the subsequent snowball effect that follows]. I would love to see it put on a chassis jig and have its torsional stiffness rated - I don't think it would rate very highly. And lets not talk about comparative costs of construction.
The body work is beautiful and full of the sole of the workers who formed it, but the chassis is a maze of over detailed substructures, each trying to mask the mistakes of each other.
An example of the type of thinking I am trying to describe is probably well illustrated one simple process that took place during the Cold War Space Race between the US an the USSR. Both countries knew that their astronauts needed a reliable tool to write with in space [for navigation calculations etc]. The US spend untold millions of dollars trying to invent a pen that would write zero gravity, they put teams of their best engineers on the task and spend years trying to perfect it. The Russians simply gave their Cosmonauts pencils.
That is a good design solution vs over engineering. The US spent a fortune trying to make a flawed concept work without looking for a simple solution to the problem. You can't always throw money at a problem and expect a superior result. Mostly the extra money just means extra complications and management issues, but it is the way in the US where bigger is always better.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Cobra [especially the body work], but I think they got caught up in the process of construction and the end result whilst beautiful in its complexity shouldn't be confused with a considered, elegant [and potentially timeless] design solution to the problem. It will make a beautiful museum piece in the future, but it won't change the way cars are constructed [except for the mega rich wanna-bees].
VMX 42
P.S. don't worry Firko, it probably won't happen again…
Thanks for the post. Perhaps I need to explain something here that might have been missed.
The "best" material to make a car out of is carbon fiber. (Of course, that depends on your definition of "best"). Assuming our definition here of "best" is high performance, then carbon fiber it the choice--hands down, no questions asked. We know this because F1 chassis are made form carbon fiber. Larry Ellison sails in the America's Cup. That is sailing's F1 equivalent. Vast sums of money are spent on the America's Cup race. Larry owns one of the most advanced carbon fiber houses in the world. His boat hulls, masts, and other parts are made from carbon fiber. He could have easily made the chassis from carbon fiber--but Larry didn't want a car made from carbon fiber. He wanted a car made from "billet" aluminum. (We can have a discussion on what "billet" means, but in this context it means a block of aluminum--I am not using the metallurgical definition.)
No one has ever made a billet chassis before. Undoubtedly for some of the reasons that have been stated. Larry could have made the car from anything he wanted. He chose aluminum. That is where the real engineering and design challenges came into being.
David
:):):)
David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports
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I think that the billet chassis is probably a pretty good (albeit horrifically expensive) way to build a decent handling car under a Cobra body.
I do appreciate the statements about a proper monocoque or a space-frame, but both would be badly compromised in an open-top car with opening doors. I suspect that the billet chassis is probably better than either, in this circumstance.
I'm not so sure about the 'soul' thing either. The pursuit of technical excellence requires a dedication and a passion that very, very few of us can muster. CAD and Solidworks make things easier, but they also raise the bar, and demand a lot more from the operator. The countless hours spent modeling the suspension alone, should not be devalued by the high quality of the finished product.
On an even more basic level, to actually finish the car to such a high standard shows a rare and uncommon patience - one that needs passion to sustain it.
Regardless, the constructors clearly wished to display their technical expertise, and they've clearly had a win on that one.
Thanks for the kind words.
You are so right. It takes a tremendous amount of passion and dedication to see a dream through to the end--especially in the face of those who don't think something can be done.
David
:):):)
David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports
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David,
When can we expect to see the first Billet '73 Honda Elsinore 250 or '81 Maico 490? :)
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Can you make me a Ford Escort MkII? You might have to dumb it down a bit for my budget ;D
Thanks for taking the time to set the story straight
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Jeff, for you a classic URBAN MYTH (http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp) ;D. If it were an OSSA GP Phantom would it have drawn the same comments?
Unless you have a black belt in Solidworks/MasterCam I wouldn't pass judgement on the billet chassis . Programes like SolidWorks are P
part of the reason modern compnents are just so good these days. CNC work like that is cheap as these days(just email files to China) it looked like it was mostly simple 2D stuff which can even be done on a CNC router that makes kitchen cupboards.Compared to a space frame which would have to have 1 or more jigs made, tubes CNC 'fish-mouthed' and /or bent then finaly welded the billet option is looking better and better.
On the question if it's got soul, essence or such I reckon that would rapidly disappear once you nailed the throttle.
There is a lot more truth to what you said than you may realize.
The throttle pedal has a lot of soul.
David
:):):)
David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports
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David,
When can we expect to see the first Billet '73 Honda Elsinore 250 or '81 Maico 490? :)
We are always looking into new parts for all makes. As for another billet car...that might be a long time in coming!
David
:):):)
David Kirkham, President
KMS
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Hi David,
Thanks for your generous responses. Sometimes things get a bit spirited around here and occasionally views might get expressed more strongly than appropriate - but 99 times out 100 it is with the best intentions.
It seemed your Cobra polarised opinions at many levels, but it also gathered almost universal praise for the standard of workmanship and the obvious passion that went into its conception and construction.
I think your sheet metal workers in both Poland and the US deserve a few extra 'cold ones' as [IMHO] their contribution was truely outstanding.
Keep up the good work and I hope your next 'concept stretching' exercise is as exciting as this one. I don't know where you go from here but keep us posted… you never know what we will say, but you can be sure we will enjoy seeing it.
Thanks again,
VMX42
…and David if you are making Lozza a MkII, then making an extra one for me would be simple wouldn't it, you could even add it to Larrys bill as I am sure he wouldn't even notice ;D ;D ;D
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Can you make me a Ford Escort MkII? You might have to dumb it down a bit for my budget ;D
Thanks for taking the time to set the story straight
Thanks for that, I just sprayed coffee all over my keyboard and near choked to death with laughter.
That factory in Poland might be just the ticket for churning out replica alloy tanks though.
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??? :o
I was serious........................well sort of :D
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If we're being serious, I want a replica of the original Batmobile.
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This is also very cool:
http://www.mat.fi/project1929fordmodel-a.htm
For the un-initated, that's 250hp worth of Cosworth BDG motor, quite well disgusised. :)
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Your right Nathan, very cool and would probably flog most of the hotrodders ones with V8's in them, would deffinatly out handle them with that lightweight engine.
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The engine would be much more 'period' and era correct on my MK II Escort ::)
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sigh... where is my Lotto ticket... the 29A Tudor was my childhood dream car.
That one. I want THAT one. hells bells...
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Fantastic. I don't claim to understand it, but it is just great. Makes a VMX resto look like a walk in the park.
The wooden spoked wheels and the spark plug caps are truly inspired.
The only thing missing are the paddle shifts under the steering wheel.
VMX42
But then again, aren't they guilty of rewriting history… ???
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This is also very cool:
http://www.mat.fi/project1929fordmodel-a.htm
For the un-initated, that's 250hp worth of Cosworth BDG motor, quite well disgusised. :)
Now That's my kind of hotrod.
I bet Old Henry would love to have a go at it.
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But then again, aren't they guilty of rewriting history… ???
:D(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/funnies/clap.gif) :D :D :D
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That Model A has sparked long dormant memories of a mate, Tony Phillips '28 Tudor back in the late 60's/early 70's. When he got it it was as stock as a rock and we had a ball riding around the Maroubra/Coogee area in the old thing. The side valve 4 cylinder engine was so slow, even by '60s standards that the back seat passengers had to get out and walk for the old car to climb the big Arden street hill adjacent to the Coogee Bay Hotel. Eventually Tony fitted the 272 Customline engine and Jaguar Moss 4 speed gearbox that had previously lived in the Mk II Ford Zephyr that the police had put off the road because it was so bloody dangerous. With a triple carbed Cusso engine the previously gutless but relatively stable old car became a powerful but almost undrivable death trap. Tony had fitted a Ford Transit 4:11 diff and 15" Tasman "mag" wheels and 39 Ford Hydraulic brakes but at anything over about 50kph the old car would shimmy and shake all over the place and would pull violently to the right when the brakes were applied. Thankfully for our lives it only stayed on the road in that form for a couple of months before he pulled it off the road and started a proper rebuild complete with 289/C4, disc brakes and a roadster body that would take another twenty years. His son still drives the old rod to this day While Tony owns a flathead powered A '32 roadster 'rat rod' and other cool cars including a '64 Pontiac GTO convertible.....however, I've strayed.
The model A shown here does wonders for my old boilermaker instincts. Some nice fabrication's gone into it. I love how the Cosworth's been disguised to look kind of period. Me personally, I'd have fitted the BDG to a Mk1 Cortina but I've got to respect our Finnish friends perspective on retro rodding. I once saw a photo of a fifties British bike (possibly a Velo) fitted with a tt500 Yamaha engine and you had to really look hard to see what was new and what was old. This bloke's achieved the same result on 4 wheels.
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Pencil me in for his Ice Racing school in either the Cosworth Escort or the MkI. Love how every workshop looks like a barn. For a country with such a small population Finland has produced more than it's fair share of motorsport champions. A few behind the scenes blokes to, a fellow in Finland I exchange emails with bought a Bimota V-due with the ill fated fuel injection system. When I asked was he going to throw that in the bin,"No a fellow who lives in my village is the fuel injection engineer for the Rizzla MotoGP team. He said he will fix it for me when he is on the summer break" :o :o
Top Gear went there and to get a drivers licence you have to prove you can power slide a car!
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Thread from the dead - but where else was I going to put this: http://www.studiotimecapsule.com/aluminum_fabrication ?
:)
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Fark me! Unbelievable. His English isn't too goodly much but making a complete body . Holy crap. :o
The way I'm reading it, seems like he has been living in a chicken coup farking.
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All the measurements are in inches.... ???
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Now to run it into a wall to make sure it meets ADR's
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All the measurements are in inches.... ???
Do you need a metric converter?
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No Bernie.....just trying to work out if he's in the U.S of A or pommyland....the spelling throws me off...broken English.
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No Bernie.....just trying to work out if he's in the U.S of A or pommyland....the spelling throws me off...broken English.
The address is in California.
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i think david kirkham gracing us with his expertise has shown us up to be a bunch of plebs :)
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Who cares were he is from !!....wouldn't you like that much shed time ;D :P ;)
cheers A
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…has shown us up to be a bunch of plebs :)
Who us? A bunch of old blokes sitting at their computers offering their opinions on anything and everything? Who would have thought it… ;D
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No Bernie.....just trying to work out if he's in the U.S of A or pommyland....the spelling throws me off...broken English.
I love his use of broken english, I thought he was Italian but he's Japanese, so more suprising that he uses imperial. But he lives in the U.S. so I guess he converted.
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A true craftsman at work .
Atention!
This website has a lot of broken English.
If you do not like,please do not see my website.
This website show how enjoy car life or special tech for your car and not teaching perfect English
Long time ago I get these skill in Italy when I could not speak Italian but I saw and try it.
Why I put many photos on this website,because photo is better than 1000 words.
Still you need perfect language,I will make this website by perfect Japanease for you.
Shin wrote
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vmx42 that made me laugh and thats the spirit i meant. cool ;D
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please define 'pleb' I sort of like the sound of it and wish to use it in my everyday vocabulary if practicle :D
can't say I've heard of it as I don't get out much :P ;D pharking nice cars by the way :o Who need to speak when actions talk so loud. ;)
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please define 'pleb' I sort of like the sound of it and wish to use it in my everyday vocabulary if practicle :D
Hey Doc,
The dictionary says: 'Pleb', The common people; the populace
So that probably does refer to you… and me both.
As for 'practicle', I can't say I know what that means… ;D
VMX42
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And another one, this time a Rotary Volvo... ;D
http://www.rx7club.com/old-school-other-rotary-63/tegheim-home-made-4-rotor-wolvo-project-892879/
He does some non-ideal stuff at times (messing up the control arms on pg25 or 26), but that doesn't detract from the quality of his work or his ambition.
Like the CNC Cobra build story, this one cost me a whole morning...
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And another one, this time a Rotary Volvo... ;D
http://www.rx7club.com/old-school-other-rotary-63/tegheim-home-made-4-rotor-wolvo-project-892879/
He does some non-ideal stuff at times (messing up the control arms on pg25 or 26), but that doesn't detract from the quality of his work or his ambition.
Like the CNC Cobra build story, this one cost me a whole morning...
What a great find Nathan. Boy those long Swedish winters must affect their brains...
Great work and incredible details from one man... I will have to keep following his progress.
VMX42
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http://www.wimp.com/turbotractor/
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I once heard Sweden described as "one huge mental institution".
Increasingly, I'm thinking this is correct.