OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Vinduro => Topic started by: Graeme M on August 12, 2009, 08:11:31 pm
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Hi guys,
We have to keep sight of why we started Vinduros and be careful to ensure their survival and the original aims Steve Juzva and I set out with at our first event at Castella in 2007. Our concept has worked.
Firstly, these events are non competitive events on old pre 1985 enduro bikes. They are for enthusiasts who rode the tough events in the '70s and '80s and also for those who didn't ride them but appreciate the variety and quirkiness of the old iron. We are aiming to recreate the look and feel of earlier events with the overnight impound in the Parc Ferme, the ‘cold start test’, 1A-1B-1C – three riders per minute, three man teams, rider time cards, flip cards/clocks, check in/check out, route checks and special tests with times kept for your own personal use.
Secondly, these events have to be rideable for all skill levels but still a challenge to get around. To that end, I have asked the organisers to create challenging courses that will make the faster riders think and yet let the slower riders through with some perseverance.
Thirdly, once you have finished the loop you should feel a sense of achievement in completing it and have spent enough time on your bike to understand its strengths and weaknesses and pushed your physical boundaries too. The course was always ‘sight unseen’ and riders had to deal with obstacles and challenges as they came upon them.
Fourth, enduros have never been for the enthusiast with the mega spec bike he doesn’t want to get dirty. These bikes are best kept for displays and to let us marvel at their beauty. A truth is that most enduro rider’s bikes were less than perfect as they were thrashed for hours. Vinduro should also aim to provide a challenge for casual riders who would normally be happy riding around a paddock.
Notes/thoughts about the above:
1. You have to love old enduro/trail bikes.
2. As numbers increase we need to ensure that bikes are pre 1985 and fitted with a working headlight, tailight and a quiet muffler.
3. We need to work towards all bikes licenced to Rec. Rego standards so we can use longer loops in the State forests.
4. This is not just a 'drag out your old VMX bike and stick a modern headlight and a red postage stamp on the mx rear guard' event. Get into the spirit. Convert it to Rec. Rego spec.
5. Keep it pre 1985, as by then (in fact by 1981) bikes were ergonomically similar to modern bikes. The easiest bikes to ride in the bush are the pre 1980 ones with decent suspension travel and manageable seat heights.
6. Perfectly restored bikes are encouraged but the nature of enduros means they will get more wear and tear than mx. There is nothing better than seeing a mint bike in the pits, and it’s understandable if you don’t want to ruin it. Competitive enduro bikes have always been a bit ratty and there is no shame in riding an old ‘beater’.
7. Course bottlenecks are to be avoided and organizers have never set out to create stoppers. But invariably it happens so chill out and wait for it to clear or pitch in and help the less experienced through.
8. Modern bikes should not ride the course, unless carrying photographers and the only moderns should have an ‘M’ for marshal and help out riders who are stuck or broken down.
9. Random prize/product give-aways to emphasise the fun aspect.
As for Harrow, the river crossing was a mistake. It rose so fast in the four days I was there I hoped it would disappear as fast, but it sure will fuel a lot of campfire yarns in the future. Next year, the start will on the other side of the river where there is a bit more usable land.
I'm told riders have been grizzling about the event but if anyone has any gripes let me know so I can address them.
The meal break at Harrow was to give the start/finish checkpoint personnel a rest, but is not usual.
See you at Benalla, Sept 27th. Go to www.dvmcc.com.au for details and the forms.
Cheers,
D.
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Keep it non-competitive or else you'll end up with the endless shit-fights that are going on in other threads at the moment (which I must say are very entertaining... :))
Rec-reg is probably a good idea as well. It'd give you the added bonus of actually riding the beast anytime other than events and a group of you could be riding on weekends on your Vinduro mounts. Grouse!
Doing away with slapping a headlight on a motocross bike also sounds the go as they really shouldn't be in the bush at all (motocross bikes and those noisy mufflers) plus it keeps it pure to the concept and we all know how much some people around here like that idea. ;)
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As for Harrow, the river crossing was a mistake.
I'm told riders have been grizzling about the event but if anyone has any gripes let me know so I can address them.
The meal break at Harrow was to give the start/finish checkpoint personnel a rest, but is not usual.
What was there to grizzle about!!! Some people need to get a life. I drove 5.5 hrs there and the same back. 11 hours in the car for 4 hours on the bike. I'll be there next year and won't be grizzling. Sure the river crossing was knarly for the old girls, but the biggest smile i saw for the whole day was the big fella on the XL/XR that was drowned. Didn't nind the lunch break either. Gave me a chance to do some jetting. Have had a lunch break with VIPER for years so i kinda expected it anyway. Gotta give the marshalls and volunteers a break!
1. You have to love old enduro/trail bikes.
That's a given
2. As numbers increase we need to ensure that bikes are pre 1985 and fitted with a working headlight, tailight and a quiet muffler.
For me a working headlight, tailight wold be a significant cost, even on a PE250. A quiet muffler, goes without saying.
3. We need to work towards all bikes licenced to Rec. Rego standards so we can use longer loops in the State forests.
50/50 on this. In VIC, the added cost to get rec reg in the 1st year is not significantly different as full reg. The second and ongoing years are a diffrent story. That 1st year cost would be more than what my bike is worth.
4. This is not just a 'drag out your old VMX bike and stick a modern headlight and a red postage stamp on the mx rear guard' event. Get into the spirit. Convert it to Rec. Rego spec.
As above. It would be interesting to see how the numbers would be and how viable it would become.
5. Keep it pre 1985, as by then (in fact by 1981) bikes were ergonomically similar to modern bikes. The easiest bikes to ride in the bush are the pre 1980 ones with decent suspension travel and manageable seat heights.
If you say Pre85, then make sure it is Pre85. There was more than a handfull of Post85 bikes at Harrow.
6. Perfectly restored bikes are encouraged but the nature of enduros means they will get more wear and tear than mx. There is nothing better than seeing a mint bike in the pits, and it’s understandable if you don’t want to ruin it. Competitive enduro bikes have always been a bit ratty and there is no shame in riding an old ‘beater’.
Agree
7. Course bottlenecks are to be avoided and organizers have never set out to create stoppers. But invariably it happens so chill out and wait for it to clear or pitch in and help the less experienced through.
Half the fun is watching someone crash and burn on a hil. (injuries aside) Let them do it a few times for humor, then give them a heliping hand. ;D
8. Modern bikes should not ride the course, unless carrying photographers and the only moderns should have an ‘M’ for marshal and help out riders who are stuck or broken down.
Agree
9. Random prize/product give-aways to emphasise the fun aspect.
Dont care either way. Just create the atmosphere. If you were at the Harrow pub Saturday night you know what i mean.
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Hi guys
Can I just throw this in, these are the rules for the isny classic enduro they are worth a read.
IMHO The ultimate for me would be events like this. How much fun would this be?
ISNY is every 2.year.That means because the next ISNY Classic is in 2009,the
next after that would be in 2011,
The event is on and around the 27.-28.July. 09.
The rules are ISDT type rules.Start in the morning 1 minute.
Some 11 Nation competing.
Electric Time Clocks on the checkpoints.
A trial test,a accelerating and brake test,
Terrain tests.
Sunday 3 laps @ ca 40 km,Sunday
(they are thinking about a final MX.)
Every rider begins with 150 points.
Riders and bikes ages combined will be deducted from the 150 basis points.
In addition to the remaining points comes the points lost in the special
tests.
Trial test.
Every foot 1 point
Stall engine and stop forward motion = 15 points
Riding out of section = 25 points.
Refusing to ride the section = 200 points.
Ac.+ brake test.seconds driven x 10.
Missing start test = 60 points
Missing stamp card or route check DNF.
Team are 3 riders.Winner with the combined lowest points.
Classes I for side cars.
Class II max.100 cc 2/4 stroke till 1970
Class II a max 100 cc 2/4 stroke till 1976
Class II b max 100 cc 2/4 str.till 1978
Class III max 125 cc 2/4 str. till 1970
Class III a max 125 cc 2/4 str.till 1976
Class III b max 125 cc 2/4 str. till 1978
Class IV max 250 cc 2/4 str. till 1970
Class IV a max 250 cc 2/4 str. till 1976
Class IV b max.250 cc 2/4 str. till 1978
Class V max 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1970
Class V a max 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1976
Class V b max 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1978
Class VI over 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1970
Class VI a over 500 cc 3/4 str. till 1976
Class VI b over 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1978
Points example: # 1
Age rider + age bike = 46 + 32 = 78 points.
150 basis points - 78 age points = 72.00 points
Ac.+ brake test = 37.45 sec.x 10 = 374.50 points start test ok = 0.00 points
Trial test one foot on ground = 5 points
Result = 451.50 points.
Example # 2 ( Helmut + Hercules 1976 )
Age rider 73 + bike age 33 = 106 points.Off the basis 150 Points = 44
Starting points.etcetera....
Got it??
The OLDER the rider and the OLDER the bike, the better to start with very
low points.!!!!!!!!!
Please print this out or safe it.
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The Isny rules are excellent but they are full on enduro rules,fine if you're Geoff Ballard ,but a bit harsh if you're joe average.It's supposed to be a more enjoyable event,obviously more than a trailride, but a bit less than the ISDT.
All things said in the above posts are valid, but the hardest thing would be the rec.rego , we dont have it in NSW and if you have more than one bike ,it becomes prohibitive.I do agree with the working head and taillight........taillight especially, maybe some battery operated unit just for the tail that can be recharged before each event. ??
Roger
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Rec Reg in VICTORIA is a tough one first time up.
The stamp duty, transfers, third party insurance, plate cost etc are the same as full reg, its only the rego cost that differs. The second year it is of some value. As noted by Yamastepside, it cant be used outside of Victoria.
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I went the Rec rego option this year after always having full reg. Because the bike was (fully)registered in my name previously (but had lapsed), it only cost me $74. I don't lioke not being able to legally ride into towns to buy fuel or a steak sanger, but it is a low buck option for those in need. ;)
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I guess I have no great thoughts to offer, as it's unlikely I'll ever get to a Vinduro. But what attracted me to the idea was more the low key fun aspect. So I'd say if there are vintage enduros that are there for the true old school enduro riders, fine. But I'd prefer something like a vintage poker run, or an 'enduro' run a bit more loosely. I couldn't be bothered trying to get the headlight and tail light on my IT working, nor do I have any desire to rego the thing. It's an old trailbike that when finished will go, will have a decent muffler, a non-working headlight and a YZ rear guard. If there was an event I could take it to that was easy trails, a few challenging bits, plenty of fun riding and chilling out, I'd love to go. But for me, a full on serious race for vintage traillies/enduros isn't my cup of tea at all. Mind you, I only race Vintage MX because Classic Dirt isn't on every weekend, so you can see how much of a racer I am!
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Yeah, like Bahnsy said, what was there to grizzle about?! It was a hoot, just like every Vinduro I've been to.
I think that non-competitive is the way to go. It'll just make it more complicated in my opinion if it becomes more serious. The present format with token prizes awarded for various "achievements" or raffled at random is excellent. The poker run concept is a good idea too.
I'm not that enthused about getting my lights working, or getting rec reg for the PE though. I would've thought it'd be a red tape nightmare to run an organised event in a state forest too. I'll abide by the rules though whatever they are.
Yep, Pre 85 is a good cut-off I reckon (plus "follow on" models).
Bring on Benalla!
Tex
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.........total agreemant !!
fun......... ;D ;D ;D ;D
shit fight........ :'( :'( >:( >:(
Roger
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why is it so hard to get lights working ???
9/10 times it will just be a blown globe, loose or corroded globe socket, missing or intermittent earth, broken wire, dirty switch contacts, or a loose or broken wire somewhere. 30mins with a multi meter and you will have found where the fault is and can most likely fix it with little or no money spent. Its not that hard if you just put some time and effort in.
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The usual problem with getting lights working is that they are most often just not there !
Most old bikes you get have been stripped out for MX or just plain stripped out !
No lights ,no wiring ,battery or rectifier........nothing !!
We're all guilty of doing it at some stage ,usually when we were kids ,and now that we're older and supposedly wiser ,we're searching everywhere for those bits we put away so carefully (never to be seen again ) ;D ;D ;D
Roger
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One point Graeme made in his opening comment, was converting a bike to rec.rego.spec. To me ,this means getting your bike to that standard of finish where it could be registered but not necessarilly registered. I agree that Vinduro bikes should be more than a motocross bike with lights, look at those magnificent european mounts , it should be about getting those old ENDURO bikes out and enjoying them.Restored, modified or wishful thinking, just get them out there !!
Roger
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Hi guys,
Thanks for the input, it was something I floated to guage our progress.
I like the ISNY Euro rules; well, the concept anyway that the old bikes and riders will be rewarded; but the scoring would be a nightmare! We don't need more complication, our checkpoint personel got stressed enough just with the ins and outs of the Harrow special test and loop start.
I know rec rego is just Victorian, bur it's not too hard rigging up lights. In fact, the bikes I have rego'ed cost me initally $180 including the shop fee of $50 (I did it at a local dealer certified to do Vic Roads stuff) as I stated the value of my 1981 400 GS Maico as $300 for the tax portion. Hey, it was a mess when I started! Annually the fee is $74.
Cheers,
Drakie.
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why is it so hard to get lights working
Well...
The usual problem with getting lights working is that they are most often just not there !
Most old bikes you get have been stripped out for MX or just plain stripped out !
No lights ,no wiring ,battery or rectifier........nothing
Exactly!
Yes, I could get some working lights and rec rego for my bike if I wanted to. I just hadn't planned on going to that effort with this particular bike. But if that's what I need to do, then that's what I'll do. ;)
Tex
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I have ridden 3 Vinduro's and have turned up with a couple of spare old bush bashers each time and rode in the gear that i had and shared bikes with anyone that needed one and ridden with fellow riders from 16 to 70+ and everyone of them was having fun.I'm not a ISDT rider from the seventies ,i only rode MX when i was younger and my first enduro was the Black Duck a couple of years ago . If i wanted too ride State Forest trails i would do it on my Road registered Trailbike with electric start . please dont make it too complicated .Pre 85 ,lights ,muffler and a hangover = Fun.
thanks Hilly.
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If i wanted too ride State Forest trails i would do it on my Road registered Trailbike with electric start . please dont make it too complicated .Pre 85 ,lights ,muffler and a hangover = Fun.
Perfectly said.
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You can have both, non-competitive and competition, MX does. As for what has gone on with rules after the nats is MX's problem, nobody is saying MX should be all non-competitive.
The Ravenshoe club in FNQ has run a pre 85 pony express. While I don't go for the PE format, Good on em.
This thread is called Vinduro Concepts, Here's a concept: A once a year 1 or 2 day competitive Vinduro.
It's not in the Mons so we can make up our own rules :)
What classes? If you allow only Enduro & trail bikes you could change the year cut offs, eg Pre70, Pre77, Pre79 Evo, Pre87, Pre90, maybe in the Pre79 you could have Pre79 & all Air cooled DTs & TSs any year.
MX bikes or not?
what Tests?
and anything else.
Just my thoughts :-\.
Cheers
Noel
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I have to agree with YZHilly. If you were a former enduro gun you might want to relive the old days. Or you could buy a modern bike and still compete.
But I think there were a hell of a lot of guy's who just plain trailrode and didn't care about being competetive who are still into old bikes. Who like to tinker on them and go for a ride with other guy's on old bikes and compare resto notes and check out each others old bikes and just have an easy weekend of fun. And ride with a hangover. I like the idea of the poker run.
If I wanted a challenging ride I would do it on my modern dirt bike. My old bikes I just want to muck around and have fun.
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I would like to comment on Rec Reg. Having a registerd bike has some benifits, such as TAC cover and more riding opportunities. Most of my bikes either have full reg or rec reg, the reason being i am coverd by insurance and i can ride them most places.
The YZ cost $106 to get regoed . Plus cost of getting it to the Vic roads standard, $90 front headlight, $25 tailight, $40 battery, $90 wiring loom and a few other minor bits. This was a MX bike, so if you have a enduro bike it would be cheaper or may even cost nothing.
Im interested in how many of you would be interested in going on a few trailrides during the year? Would you get rec reg if there was more riding available? Above mainly for Vic riders.
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I know this might sound strange ,but wouldnt historic rego in nsw do a similar thing for insurance and legality for riding in state forests.I know it would only apply to 1980 and earlier due to 30 year age requirement,but for 50 dollars it not bad.You would just have to let your club know where you are going to ride to or at and record it in there books and i believe you are covered for the ride.And on the plus side around your home i think you are allowed tuning runs up to 20klms,ived considered this instead full rego because the times i get to use my bikes,and the cost saving you get if your got more than one bike.Could be wrong with some of the info but i think im close,someone might have all the facts?Any where we can get to enjoy our bikes and other company of like mined people is a good thing to be enjoyed while we can.
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Vintage rego sounds like a great idea will make life easier have to look into it I've got a Maico GS could never keep the lights working when it was new! Don,t know How I will go 30 years later. On events I would prefer to go to 2 Day events if I have to travel Interstate.
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2 day events now there is something to look at for the Vic Vinduro's I like that idea :) camping meeting others and a ale or two around a camp fire ;D perfect.
Cheers Mick.
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NSW has conditional rego If the event is supported by MA you are able to get limited rego needed to connect competetive sections by road raced condo 750 on my quad last year and there were no problems
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Rec reg (Vic) is a great scheme. I had it for my IT250K a couple of years ago. It has handy when I took it out trail riding (usually the only 'old' bike in the group) & allowed me to ride it in the Blue Light Rally a couple of times.
Personally I prefer the idea of Vinduros being held on private property, with no need for rego, for a number of reasons. Still have to have lights & decent muffler etc though.
However if I ever get a bike rec registered again DIRTPILOT72 I'd be interested in going for a trail ride with other 'old' bikes.
Tex
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The rec reg is really just good for insurance if you have a spill and allowing us to ride more places it isn't to hard to get either so I am for it if we can ride in more spots thanks Michael. :)
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I will be trying to get pre 85 bikes together for rides next year when a couple of others get there bikes rec regoed, more info down the track on Enduro Bike Talk forum :)
Cheers Mick.
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Drakie! The 2 wires coming from the engine do they go to a rectifier and then to the lights or straight to the lights?
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Rec reg (Vic) is a great scheme. I had it for my IT250K a couple of years ago. It has handy when I took it out trail riding (usually the only 'old' bike in the group) & allowed me to ride it in the Blue Light Rally a couple of times.
Personally I prefer the idea of Vinduros being held on private property, with no need for rego, for a number of reasons. Still have to have lights & decent muffler etc though.
However if I ever get a bike rec registered again DIRTPILOT72 I'd be interested in going for a trail ride with other 'old' bikes.
Tex
Just do it. Its easy and cheap. Ive done the YZ, a DS80 and a postie bike this year. About to do a Yamaha RT100 soon. If you ever need to make a TAC claim (i have had 2 ) you will never think bike rego is expensive ever again. Trust me on that ;D
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Doing away with slapping a headlight on a motocross bike also sounds the go as they really shouldn't be in the bush at all (motocross bikes and those noisy mufflers) plus it keeps it pure to the concept and we all know how much some people around here like that idea.
Hmmm, In theory probably not a bad idea, but I used to ride YZ125's in enduros back in the early 80's and one day I'd love to pick up a YZ125J or K and do it up that way again... Shit, I'm 40kg heavier now, and 25 years older, but it'd sure be fun..... ;D ;D
(http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo184/IT400C/YZ125J/YZ125J-Headlight.jpg)
(http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo184/IT400C/YZ125K/YZ125K.jpg)
(http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo184/IT400C/YZ125K/YZ125K-Enduro.jpg)
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Doing away with slapping a headlight on a motocross bike also sounds the go as they really shouldn't be in the bush at all (motocross bikes and those noisy mufflers) plus it keeps it pure to the concept and we all know how much some people around here like that idea.
Hmmm, In theory probably not a bad idea, but I used to ride YZ125's in enduros back in the early 80's and one day I'd love to pick up a YZ125J or K and do it up that way again... Shit, I'm 40kg heavier now, and 25 years older, but it'd sure be fun..... ;D ;D
(http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo184/IT400C/YZ125J/YZ125J-Headlight.jpg)
(http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo184/IT400C/YZ125K/YZ125K.jpg)
(http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo184/IT400C/YZ125K/YZ125K-Enduro.jpg)
Proof that converted MX bikes be allowed.......
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........CONVERTED mx bikes are not the problem, my enduro bike in the 70's was a CR250 Husky with preston petty lights, the last two gears from a WR, and a proper silencer......and it was registered.
It's the MX bikes with a light stuck on and not properly converted that are the problem, besides most of your top enduro bikes were last years 'crossers.
Roger
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I love those pics, IT400C, especially the last one.
Tex
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haha - yeah, that last one brings back some memories... :)
If you look closely you'll notice that I've got no goggles on, no gloves on, and my timecard and spare tube in my hands....
It was a one day enduro (a round of the 1983 Yamaha Six Day Series) just outside of Brisbane, and as I was unloading, I noticed a flat front tyre... >:(
Had to fix the flat, get the bike scrutineered and impounded, then race back to the car and throw my gear on... Picked up my timecard and got the bike from the impound and then got to the start line with with about 30 seconds of my start minute left. ::) ::)
Had to stop 20 metres down the road and finish getting dressed!!! ;D
Tony
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........CONVERTED mx bikes are not the problem, my enduro bike in the 70's was a CR250 Husky with preston petty lights, the last two gears from a WR, and a proper silencer......and it was registered.
It's the MX bikes with a light stuck on and not properly converted that are the problem, besides most of your top enduro bikes were last years 'crossers.
Roger
Well thats ok then............. 8)