Author Topic: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions  (Read 11550 times)

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Offline Graeme M

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Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« on: August 12, 2009, 08:11:31 pm »
Hi guys,

We have to keep sight of why we started Vinduros and be careful to ensure their survival and the original aims Steve Juzva and I set out with at our first event at Castella in 2007. Our concept has worked.

Firstly, these events are non competitive events on old pre 1985 enduro bikes. They are for enthusiasts who rode the tough events in the '70s and '80s and also for those who didn't ride them but appreciate the variety and quirkiness of the old iron. We are aiming to recreate the look and feel of earlier events with the overnight impound in the Parc Ferme, the ‘cold start test’, 1A-1B-1C – three riders per minute, three man teams, rider time cards, flip cards/clocks, check in/check out, route checks and special tests with times kept for your own personal use.

Secondly, these events have to be rideable for all skill levels but still a challenge to get around. To that end, I have asked the organisers to create challenging courses that will make the faster riders think and yet let the slower riders through with some perseverance.
 
Thirdly, once you have finished the loop you should feel a sense of achievement in completing it and have spent enough time on your bike to understand its strengths and weaknesses and pushed your physical boundaries too. The course was always ‘sight unseen’ and riders had to deal with obstacles and challenges as they came upon them.

Fourth, enduros have never been for the enthusiast with the mega spec bike he doesn’t want to get dirty. These bikes are best kept for displays and to let us marvel at their beauty. A truth is that most enduro rider’s bikes were less than perfect as they were thrashed for hours. Vinduro should also aim to provide a challenge for casual riders who would normally be happy riding around a paddock.

Notes/thoughts about the above:

1. You have to love old enduro/trail bikes.
2. As numbers increase we need to ensure that bikes are pre 1985 and fitted with a working headlight, tailight and a quiet muffler.
3. We need to work towards all bikes licenced to Rec. Rego standards so we can use longer loops in the State forests.
4. This is not just a 'drag out your old VMX bike and stick a modern headlight and a red postage stamp on the mx rear guard' event. Get into the spirit. Convert it to Rec. Rego spec.
5. Keep it pre 1985, as by then (in fact by 1981) bikes were ergonomically similar to modern bikes. The easiest bikes to ride in the bush are the pre 1980 ones with decent suspension travel and manageable seat heights.
6. Perfectly restored bikes are encouraged but the nature of enduros means they will get more wear and tear than mx. There is nothing better than seeing a mint bike in the pits, and it’s understandable if you don’t want to ruin it. Competitive enduro bikes have always been a bit ratty and there is no shame in riding an old ‘beater’.
7. Course bottlenecks are to be avoided and organizers have never set out to create stoppers. But invariably it happens so chill out and wait for it to clear or pitch in and help the less experienced through.
8. Modern bikes should not ride the course, unless carrying photographers and the only moderns should have an ‘M’ for marshal and help out riders who are stuck or broken down.
9. Random prize/product give-aways to emphasise the fun aspect.   

As for Harrow, the river crossing was a mistake. It rose so fast in the four days I was there I hoped it would disappear as fast,  but it sure will fuel a lot of campfire yarns in the future. Next year, the start will on the other side of the river where there is a bit more usable land.

I'm told riders have been grizzling about the event but if anyone has any gripes let me know so I can address them.

The meal break at Harrow was to give the start/finish checkpoint personnel a rest, but is not usual.

See you at Benalla, Sept 27th. Go to www.dvmcc.com.au for details and the forms.

Cheers,
D.






« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 08:21:47 pm by Graeme M »

All Things 414

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 08:16:52 pm »
Keep it non-competitive or else you'll end up with the endless shit-fights that are going on in other threads at the moment (which I must say are very entertaining... :))
Rec-reg is probably a good idea as well. It'd give you the added bonus of actually riding the beast anytime other than events and a group of you could be riding on weekends on your Vinduro mounts. Grouse!
Doing away with slapping a headlight on a motocross bike also sounds the go as they really shouldn't be in the bush at all (motocross bikes and those noisy mufflers) plus it keeps it pure to the concept and we all know how much some people around here like that idea.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 08:26:51 pm by All Things 414 »

Offline BAHNZY

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2009, 06:22:52 pm »
As for Harrow, the river crossing was a mistake.
I'm told riders have been grizzling about the event but if anyone has any gripes let me know so I can address them.
The meal break at Harrow was to give the start/finish checkpoint personnel a rest, but is not usual.


What was there to grizzle about!!! Some people need to get a life. I drove 5.5 hrs there and the same back. 11 hours in the car for 4 hours on the bike. I'll be there next year and won't be grizzling. Sure the river crossing was knarly for the old girls, but the biggest smile i saw for the whole day was the big fella on the XL/XR that was drowned. Didn't nind the lunch break either. Gave me a chance to do some jetting. Have had a lunch break with VIPER for years so i kinda expected it anyway. Gotta give the marshalls and volunteers a break!



1. You have to love old enduro/trail bikes.
That's a given

2. As numbers increase we need to ensure that bikes are pre 1985 and fitted with a working headlight, tailight and a quiet muffler.
For me a working headlight, tailight wold be a significant cost, even on a PE250. A quiet muffler, goes without saying.

3. We need to work towards all bikes licenced to Rec. Rego standards so we can use longer loops in the State forests.
50/50 on this. In VIC, the added cost to get rec reg in the 1st year is not significantly different as full reg. The second and ongoing years are a diffrent story. That 1st year cost would be more than what my bike is worth.

4. This is not just a 'drag out your old VMX bike and stick a modern headlight and a red postage stamp on the mx rear guard' event. Get into the spirit. Convert it to Rec. Rego spec.
As above. It would be interesting to see how the numbers would be and how viable it would become.

5. Keep it pre 1985, as by then (in fact by 1981) bikes were ergonomically similar to modern bikes. The easiest bikes to ride in the bush are the pre 1980 ones with decent suspension travel and manageable seat heights.
If you say Pre85, then make sure it is Pre85. There was more than a handfull of Post85 bikes at Harrow.

6. Perfectly restored bikes are encouraged but the nature of enduros means they will get more wear and tear than mx. There is nothing better than seeing a mint bike in the pits, and it’s understandable if you don’t want to ruin it. Competitive enduro bikes have always been a bit ratty and there is no shame in riding an old ‘beater’.
Agree

7. Course bottlenecks are to be avoided and organizers have never set out to create stoppers. But invariably it happens so chill out and wait for it to clear or pitch in and help the less experienced through.
Half the fun is watching someone crash and burn on a hil. (injuries aside) Let them do it a few times for humor, then give them a heliping hand. ;D

8. Modern bikes should not ride the course, unless carrying photographers and the only moderns should have an ‘M’ for marshal and help out riders who are stuck or broken down.
Agree

9. Random prize/product give-aways to emphasise the fun aspect.   
Dont care either way. Just create the atmosphere. If you were at the Harrow pub Saturday night you know what i mean.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 06:28:51 pm by Bahnsy »
Rod (BAHNZY) Bahn

Offline NSR

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2009, 09:50:06 pm »
Hi guys
Can I just throw this in, these are the rules for the isny classic enduro they are worth a read.
IMHO The ultimate for me would be events like this.  How much fun would this be?

 
ISNY is every 2.year.That means because the next ISNY Classic is in 2009,the
next after that would be in 2011,
The event is on and around the 27.-28.July. 09.
The rules are ISDT type rules.Start in the morning 1 minute.
Some 11 Nation competing.
Electric Time Clocks on the checkpoints.
A trial test,a accelerating and brake test,
Terrain tests.
Sunday 3 laps @ ca 40 km,Sunday
(they are thinking about a final MX.)
Every rider begins with 150 points.
Riders and bikes ages combined will be deducted from the 150 basis points.
In addition to the remaining points comes the points lost in the special
tests.
Trial test.
Every foot 1 point
Stall engine and stop forward motion = 15 points
Riding out of section = 25 points.
Refusing to ride the section = 200 points.
Ac.+ brake test.seconds driven x 10.
Missing start test = 60 points
Missing stamp card or route check DNF.
Team are 3 riders.Winner with the combined lowest points.
Classes I for side cars.
Class II max.100 cc 2/4 stroke till 1970
Class II a max 100 cc 2/4 stroke till 1976
Class II b max 100 cc 2/4 str.till 1978
Class III max 125 cc 2/4 str. till 1970
Class III a max 125 cc 2/4 str.till 1976
Class III b max 125 cc 2/4 str. till 1978
Class IV max 250 cc 2/4 str. till 1970
Class IV a max 250 cc 2/4 str. till 1976
Class IV b max.250 cc 2/4 str. till 1978
Class V max 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1970
Class V a max 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1976
Class V b max 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1978
Class VI over 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1970
Class VI a over 500 cc 3/4 str. till 1976
Class VI b over 500 cc 2/4 str. till 1978

Points example: # 1
Age rider + age bike = 46 + 32 = 78 points.
150 basis points - 78 age points = 72.00 points
Ac.+ brake test = 37.45 sec.x 10 = 374.50 points start test ok = 0.00 points

Trial test one foot on ground = 5 points
Result = 451.50 points.

Example # 2 ( Helmut + Hercules 1976 )
Age rider 73 + bike age 33 = 106 points.Off the basis 150 Points = 44
Starting points.etcetera....
Got it??
The OLDER the rider and the OLDER the bike, the better to start with very
low points.!!!!!!!!!
Please print this out or safe it.

 
 
The Swvm though the tree's! http://youtu.be/4h6BbasT16I
Metalink Conondale vinduro sprint. May 19/20 2018    
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Offline YUMASTEPSIDE

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2009, 08:42:45 am »
The Isny rules are excellent but they are full on enduro rules,fine if you're Geoff Ballard ,but a bit harsh if you're joe average.It's supposed to be a more enjoyable event,obviously more than a trailride, but a bit less than the ISDT.
  All things said in the above posts are valid, but the hardest thing would be the rec.rego , we dont have it in NSW and if you have more than one bike ,it becomes prohibitive.I do agree with the working head and taillight........taillight especially, maybe some battery operated unit just for the tail that can be recharged before each event. ??

                     Roger

Offline BAHNZY

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2009, 04:47:24 pm »
Rec Reg in VICTORIA is a tough one first time up.
The stamp duty, transfers, third party insurance, plate cost etc are the same as full reg, its only the rego cost that differs. The second year it is of some value. As noted by Yamastepside, it cant be used outside of Victoria.
Rod (BAHNZY) Bahn

Offline TeeBone

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2009, 07:13:07 pm »
I went the Rec rego option this year after always having full reg. Because the bike was (fully)registered in my name previously (but had lapsed), it only cost me $74. I don't lioke not being able to legally ride into towns to buy fuel or a steak sanger, but it is a low buck option for those in need. ;)
Destined to a life behind bars. A garage full of KTM's and a 73 CR 250M Honda....H7 250 Monty will be at Harrow!
A "never was" of the Nineties...

Offline Graeme M

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 09:17:03 am »
I guess I have no great thoughts to offer, as it's unlikely I'll ever get to a Vinduro. But what attracted me to the idea was more the low key fun aspect. So I'd say if there are vintage enduros that are there for the true old school enduro riders, fine. But I'd prefer something like a vintage poker run, or an 'enduro' run a bit more loosely. I couldn't be bothered trying to get the headlight and tail light on my IT working, nor do I have any desire to rego the thing. It's an old trailbike that when finished will go, will have a decent muffler, a non-working headlight and a YZ rear guard. If there was an event I could take it to that was easy trails, a few challenging bits, plenty of fun riding and chilling out, I'd love to go. But for me, a full on serious race for vintage traillies/enduros isn't my cup of tea at all. Mind you, I only race Vintage MX because Classic Dirt isn't on every weekend, so you can see how much of a racer I am!

Offline Tex

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 07:40:18 pm »
Yeah, like Bahnsy said, what was there to grizzle about?! It was a hoot, just like every Vinduro I've been to.

I think that non-competitive is the way to go. It'll just make it more complicated in my opinion if it becomes more serious. The present format with token prizes awarded for various "achievements" or raffled at random is excellent. The poker run concept is a good idea too.

I'm not that enthused about getting my lights working, or getting rec reg for the PE though. I would've thought it'd be a red tape nightmare to run an organised event in a state forest too. I'll abide by the rules though whatever they are.

Yep, Pre 85 is a good cut-off I reckon (plus "follow on" models).

Bring on Benalla!

Tex

Offline YUMASTEPSIDE

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 10:09:32 pm »
.........total agreemant !!

    fun......... ;D ;D ;D ;D

    shit fight........ :'( :'( >:( >:(

                Roger

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 10:17:37 pm »
why is it so hard to get lights working  ???
9/10 times it will just be a blown globe, loose or corroded globe socket, missing or intermittent earth, broken wire, dirty switch contacts, or a loose or broken wire somewhere. 30mins with a multi meter and you will have found where the fault is and can most likely fix it with little or no money spent. Its not that hard if you just put some time and effort in.
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Offline YUMASTEPSIDE

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2009, 08:00:00 am »
The usual problem with getting lights working is that they are most often just not there !
  Most old bikes you get have been stripped out for MX or just plain stripped out !
No lights ,no wiring ,battery or rectifier........nothing !!

  We're all guilty of doing it at some stage ,usually when we were kids ,and now that we're older and supposedly wiser ,we're searching everywhere for those bits we put away so carefully (never to be seen again ) ;D ;D ;D

                   Roger               

Offline YUMASTEPSIDE

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 08:10:43 am »
One point Graeme made in his opening comment, was converting a bike to rec.rego.spec.   To me ,this means getting your bike to that standard of finish where it could be registered but not necessarilly registered. I agree that Vinduro bikes should be more than a motocross bike with lights, look at those magnificent european mounts , it should be about getting those old ENDURO bikes out and enjoying them.Restored, modified or wishful thinking, just get them out there !!

               Roger

Offline Drakie

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 08:23:05 am »
Hi guys,
Thanks for the input, it was something I floated to guage our progress.
I like the ISNY Euro rules; well, the concept anyway that the old bikes and riders will be rewarded; but the scoring would be a nightmare! We don't need more complication, our checkpoint personel got stressed enough just with the ins and outs of the Harrow special test and loop start.
I know rec rego is just Victorian, bur it's not too hard rigging up lights. In fact, the bikes I have rego'ed cost me initally $180 including the shop fee of $50 (I did it at a local dealer certified to do Vic Roads stuff) as I stated the value of my 1981 400 GS Maico as $300 for the tax portion. Hey, it was a mess when I started! Annually the fee is $74.
Cheers,
Drakie.

Offline Tex

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Re: Vinduro Concepts and Future Directions
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 02:43:48 pm »
Quote
why is it so hard to get lights working

Well...

Quote
The usual problem with getting lights working is that they are most often just not there !
  Most old bikes you get have been stripped out for MX or just plain stripped out !
No lights ,no wiring ,battery or rectifier........nothing

Exactly!

Yes, I could get some working lights and rec rego for my bike if I wanted to. I just hadn't planned on going to that effort with this particular bike. But if that's what I need to do, then that's what I'll do.  ;)

Tex