OzVMX Forum

Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Graham on March 24, 2016, 06:03:04 am

Title: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Graham on March 24, 2016, 06:03:04 am
Have heard of some very good results with this stuff, a couple of different brands available. Anyone know if its ok to use in VMX
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Nathan S on March 24, 2016, 08:03:01 am
I'm pretty sure it is MA legal.
Even if it isnt, they won't have a way to test for it...

Be aware that you will need to reconfigure your motor to make it worthwhile.
Datsun L-series motors that were making 105kW on AvGas, went to 107kW by simply filling with Elf. With a rebuild and retune, they went 115kW on Elf.
With a rebuild and retune to suit 98 pump fuel, they made ~108kW.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: curly001 on March 24, 2016, 08:41:22 am
It's MA approved, but you need to re jet for the additional fuel required.
I use VP fuels.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: sleepy on March 24, 2016, 12:22:02 pm
I'm pretty sure it is MA legal.
Even if it isnt, they won't have a way to test for it...

Be aware that you will need to reconfigure your motor to make it worthwhile.
Datsun L-series motors that were making 105kW on AvGas, went to 107kW by simply filling with Elf. With a rebuild and retune, they went 115kW on Elf.
With a rebuild and retune to suit 98 pump fuel, they made ~108kW.

Just looked at the Homologated fuel list and ELF is not listed. MA have fuel testing procedures in place but proabably don't bother.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: KTM47 on March 24, 2016, 01:09:29 pm
email MA [email protected] and ask about ELF.

It doesn't worry me I use 95 RON pump fuel and use maxima octane booster.  The 99 and 98 RON fuels are designed for fuel injected cars and may not be compatible with 2 stroke oil and engines.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Andrew L on March 24, 2016, 01:23:03 pm
The higher octane pump fuels aren't always that good either as I was told that not many people buy it and it sits in the servo tanks and deteriorates. I go with the 95 and fuel additive as well.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: sleepy on March 24, 2016, 01:53:26 pm
email MA [email protected] and ask about ELF.

It doesn't worry me I use 95 RON pump fuel and use maxima octane booster.  The 99 and 98 RON fuels are designed for fuel injected cars and may not be compatible with 2 stroke oil and engines.

Don't the rules specificaly state that no additives other than lube oil are permitted?
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Slakewell on March 24, 2016, 03:25:22 pm
Not a great idea for air cooled engines. Some of these fuels run hot.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Lozza on March 24, 2016, 05:17:38 pm
Have heard of some very good results with this stuff, a couple of different brands available. Anyone know if its ok to use in VMX

Works well but you need to tune the engine to it.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: PEZBerq on March 25, 2016, 11:28:18 am
2016 MOMS

(http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/berquist01/OZVMX/94e00fab378cab4e2fd9f26918299d48.jpg)
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Graham on March 25, 2016, 01:12:12 pm
2016 MOMS

(http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/berquist01/OZVMX/94e00fab378cab4e2fd9f26918299d48.jpg)

So that would make any of the oxygenated fuels illegal to use. And at $ 20 per litre youd have to be pretty desperate
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: KTM47 on March 25, 2016, 01:22:37 pm
Yes for this year and maybe the next that is the rule.

However there is a letter from the Aust Government that basically says they intend to phase out the use of leaded fuel over a two year period starting from 2017.

So you can use those fuel now, but for how long?
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Lozza on March 25, 2016, 02:49:24 pm
Avgas won't be phased out.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: sleepy on March 25, 2016, 04:44:40 pm
So at the moment you could use an leaded fuel like VP Q16 with an octane of 116 octane and is highly oxygenated but if a fuel is unleaded it can only be 100 octane.
Still looks like using the Maxima octane booster is not permitted.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Rossvickicampbell on March 25, 2016, 04:51:52 pm
how could someone know you had octane booster added?
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: sleepy on March 25, 2016, 07:12:03 pm
how could someone know you had octane booster added?

Simple. Kevin just told use he uses it. Also a fuel test would show it up.
Without testing or the rider admitting it no one would know they were cheating.
Some of the fancy race fuels smell very different in the can and also out the exhaust. Their fumes are also extremly carcinogenic and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near them running.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Nathan S on March 25, 2016, 08:51:58 pm
2016 MOMS

(http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/berquist01/OZVMX/94e00fab378cab4e2fd9f26918299d48.jpg)

What a lousy list: absolutely baffling with the use of "and" and "or" across separate points.
 c) and d) should be part of b).
It also makes no sense to restrict Unleaded fuel for octane/additives, while not applying those restrictions to methanol and leaded fuels.

Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: PEZBerq on March 25, 2016, 09:45:00 pm
Pure methanol would have zero additives I assume but Leaded fuel and homologated fuel does seems unrestricted regarding additives. Me I just use 98 pump gas.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: sleepy on March 25, 2016, 11:41:55 pm
If it is common practice to use the Maxima octane booster who has been selling it as a legal product for VMX use?
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Lozza on March 26, 2016, 12:57:02 am
how could someone know you had octane booster added?


None,nil, nada, zilch...................unless a sample was sent to a laboratory or using a Digitron tester and even then there would be difficult task to detect any octane booster. Which is more often then not tolulene which is already a major component of fuel.

Having the benefit of back to back testing many fuels on a dyno up to Elf Moto124(124 octane) there are very few true pour in the tank hp fuels. All require changes to compression and ignition to get the most out of
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: sleepy on March 26, 2016, 10:53:33 am
I know from a very reliable source who works on late model MX bikes for a living that in one of his modern 250F's he tried one of the $16 per litre race fuels and after some jetting changes couldn't believe how much extra go it had. Didn't go on a dyno but seat of the pants thought something like 8HP extra and would match 450F's in a straight line. The fuel in question is not one of the homoligated fuels but was eye opening as to what is available and what they do for a relatively stock engine.

Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Rossvickicampbell on March 26, 2016, 02:39:33 pm
thought so.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Gippslander on March 26, 2016, 05:12:28 pm
just read the MOMS - so ANY fuel so long as it has a poofteenth of lead in it is ok?
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Nathan S on March 26, 2016, 05:28:59 pm
just read the MOMS - so ANY fuel so long as it has a poofteenth of lead in it is ok?

That's what it says.

Like so many things in MA's CMX world, I'm sure that's not what they intended, but it is what they've said.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: KTM47 on March 27, 2016, 01:04:26 pm
how could someone know you had octane booster added?

Simple. Kevin just told use he uses it. Also a fuel test would show it up.
Without testing or the rider admitting it no one would know they were cheating.
Some of the fancy race fuels smell very different in the can and also out the exhaust. Their fumes are also extremly carcinogenic and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near them running.

Still have to prove it.  I won't be using it anymore.

Just another point the smell a fuel makes does not mean it is "Race Fuel".  I use synthetic castor oil and have been told by several people "you're using race fuel".  No it is the oil that creates that smell.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Nathan S on March 27, 2016, 02:48:22 pm
You couldn't exclude anyone on anything as ambiguous as smell (even before you add 2T oil into it).

Proper fuel testing is expensive and difficult. I mean, it's easy to identify Methanol or Ethanol vs Petrol, but it's quite difficult to prove a sample is a particular type of petrol (and therefore legal or illegal).
Considering what you CAN legally use, I can't see anyone being chased for using a race fuel or octane booster or any of that.
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: Tomas on March 27, 2016, 03:44:08 pm
Oxygenated fuel- octane booster is not oxydizer, it just increases octane number. Oxydiser woul be somethin like nos it has molecules of oxygen in it. When you add octane booster you will end upp with high octane fuel not oxydized fuel ;)
Title: Re: oxygenated Race Fuel
Post by: sleepy on March 27, 2016, 04:30:32 pm
Oxygenated fuel- octane booster is not oxydizer, it just increases octane number. Oxydiser woul be somethin like nos it has molecules of oxygen in it. When you add octane booster you will end upp with high octane fuel not oxydized fuel ;)

You are correct in that an octane booster is just that but Oxygenated fuel or additive are an oxygen producing compound better known as chemical supercharging. Just google Nitropropane or Nitromethane. The nitromethane is mainly used in Methanol and has always been banned in motorcyle racing in Australia. There are plenty of Power additives and race fuels out there that contain oxygenating compounds like the nitropropane or another called MTBE. If you realy want a scary read google health effects of MTBE.
Unfortunatley it seems at the moment that it is a free for all as far as fuel goes and unless MA was prepared to provide a dozen or more sample bottles for random testing at the title meatings it will not change.