OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Graeme M on July 03, 2014, 10:21:28 pm
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This is an interesting one. I received this proposal the other day from a forum regular who was thinking about how to encourage a more level playing field at the races. When I first looked at it I thought "nah..." But on second thoughts, it does have merit. I actually like it, a lot.
The idea is that a weighting is applied based on rider age/bike age and actual position at the end of the race. Thus, the older the bike/rider combo, the more the elapsed time is offset (I think this is only going to be possible with transponders in use).
This means that a 20 year old bloke on a 1984 bike will get more of a 'handicap' than a 50 year old on the same bike. At the end of the day, all times are totted up and the offset applied. Now, here's where it gets interesting. The top 3 across the line (ie the fastest 3 on the day in that class) still get their points/awards as per normal. BUT, a second series of awards are then issued to the corrected times and hence placegetters. The idea is to try to 'level' the playing field somewhat.
Proposal
* Retain the current 1,2,3 fastest place getters across the line - no change, recognized & awarded as current
* Include a handicap award for 1,2,3 on handicap corrected time
* Handicap is established by rider age (as of 1st Jan per year) + bike age (model year) = handicap year number
Example - rider 36 years on a 40 year old bike = 76 / 52 year old on a 44 year odl bike = 96. Handicap number is applied to all results as they are run
You can run "all in" races without the need for separate aged events (numbers permitting). This will allow clubs to fit their race programs into the one day
A 21 year old may therefore choose an older bike to compete with an older guy who might choose a newer bike to close their handicap gaps.
Benefits
* This will encourage more people/punters to compete/participate as they have every chance to actually win something
* This will create a more level playing/selling field market & demand for gap year bikes (e.g. a 70 v 74 or a 75 v 77 in pre 78 etc)
* People are more likely to stay after events for the presentations because nobody will know if they have won a prize until then
* Fast guys will still flog it against each other for the chequered flag glory (as they should) but they also still have a chance to get handicap awards as well
* Punters will ride knowing they can actually win something & have a real chance if they ride to the best of their ability especially when you introduce unknown factors such as weather, track conditions, mechanical failures, falls etc....
Here it is in practice. The following are the results for the Evo Over 250cc class at the Aussie champs. The first shows results as per the current scoring system, the second is as per the proposed system.
(http://forum.ozvmx.com/Images/results1.jpg)
(http://forum.ozvmx.com/Images/results2.jpg)
So, over to you all. Vote in the poll above, or offer up your thoughts below.
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Certainly has merit and Steve has stated it works well in the sailing fraternity. Good to see some lateral thinking.
Cheers,
K
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That seems simular to how they Score club Yacht racing with different classes of yacht's
there is a system out that calculates all the times and handycaps at the push of a button
at the finish of a Race
I think its called a Yacht master system..
Would be great for Classic or Vintage Racing as it would sort of be like a yard stick for
for all ages and bike sizes as in cc
Its Got Merit
The Stig
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Yes, I've been thinking along similar lines. I'm glad someone has taken the time to think this through. The Alice Springs Masters Games had a similar system.
In sailing its called a Yardstick, but doesnt take age of crew into account.
The beauty of it is a host club could introduce it as a supplementary result to the outright results without any rule additions in the MoMs.
Next event I'm involved in organising I'd like to try it. Could the instigator please PM me, I'd like to discuss it further.
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I like the principle, but only on the condition that the current place getters are appropriately rewarded.
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Are you using the Kobayashi Maru Algorithm? ;)
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There is some merit in something like this however it can't happen now until the 2016 rule book. Currently we do have age groups in EVO (in Post Classic) and Pre 75 (in Classic) as well as a separate races for the overall Championship. Although the results on the Mylaps website don't show this for the Aust Post Classic Champs or the Qld Classic and Post Classic Champs.
There is no point having a different system if the people doing the work can't handle it. Please note the results for age groups can be shown correctly but for whatever reason they aren't.
Personally I have previously put a view forward that the older classes Pre 60, Pre 65 & Pre 70 should have a timed handicap system that is worked out by adding the age of the rider and bike together. Highest number starts 1st etc. What 65 plus year old wants to race against a 30 to 40 plus year old who may not have even been born when the bike was new.
There is nothing wrong with the current age groups as well as a combined overall, it just has to be given a reasonable chance to succeed. Also the minimum number to constitute a Championship class needs to be dropped to maybe 6 instead of 10. The groups for EVO also don't need to be changed to Pre 85. The EVO classes had the highest entry numbers of all the classes at PCMXC at Toowoomba.
Of course the main thing here is K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid)
Kevin
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Please note any system that involves someone (or more people) working out a handicap or dare I say it grading, is open to abuse.
Also the system proposed still only awards three extra riders. Age groups recognises 5 age groups in each capacity class.
I believe a handicap race as I propose is more interesting for spectators, because the it is all settled on the track.
Handicaps worked out after the race don't really mean a lot. How many people remember who won the Sydney to Hobart on handicap. The yacht which gets line honours is remembered more (by the general public).
Kevin
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Its a issue that should be addressed what Kevin proposes by way of age groups would be the simplest method the "Sailing" method sounds a bit confusing to the non sailor,
#8
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Stig
program used for dinghy racing at club level is called TopYacht & yes, it is automatically done once the finishing times go in with the push of a button
Nathan S
current place getters (first 3 finishers) are still rewarded, recognized & unchanged. this is in addition to the existing system to encourage more punter participation, not to replace anything
KTM 47
on average there are ~ 100 boats that compete in the Sydney to Hobart & usually 3 - 5 (max) who can win on line honours. there have been several different handicapping systems used over the 69 year race history but all of them are structured to level out the competitors so every competitor has a theoretical chance to win on handicap overall & within their own divisions. no need to go into the complexity of how those systems work other than to say without handicapping, the event would attract ~ 10 boats & subsequently die a very quick death.
number 8
there is no direct reference to the systems used in sailing, horse racing &/or any other sports that also use handicapping. no need to replicate any other system, vmx can just use the idea of combined rider/bike ages, try it & if succesful good, if not then nothing lost as the current results system stays in place. proof would be in the pudding ;D
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Graeme that is a very interesting concept it is just that I can not see how you arrived at the final times
Eg. Dean Burt - combined age 77, actual elapsed time is 728sec, corrected time is 946sec.
How does the 77 relate to the 728 to arrive at the 946?
Must be simple but I am missing it.
Heaven used a compass draw arrangement at out Gloucester TT meeting but it allows riders to self grade into a series of finals.
Would be keen to fully understand this system.
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With you Graeme, worth a try. Sailing is not really a valid comparason, in that firstly it doesn't consider age of crew, secondly the VYC Yardstick is based on known relative class performance, and most big offshore events system is based on yacht measurements applied to a complicated formula. The other is an arbitary handicap based on the individuals performance. I tried this for fun at the Qld Classic/Post Classic Championships, but while it was fun, I stuffed up which made the result iffy to say the least.
Definitely going to give it a try.
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Graeme that is a very interesting concept it is just that I can not see how you arrived at the final times
Eg. Dean Burt - combined age 77, actual elapsed time is 728sec, corrected time is 946sec.
How does the 77 relate to the 728 to arrive at the 946?
728 secs (riders actual time) / 77 (rider & bike age combo) x 100 = 946 secs (corrected time)
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Do'oH new it would be simple :-[
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LOL, all you need is an eleven year old close by who is reasonable at maths, they can work anything out if they are not glued to the TV :D
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Yep I was trying to over complicate it ::)
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Are you using the Kobayashi Maru Algorithm? ;)
I did chuckle :D
A good concept that has been bounced around a few times before.
Firstly forget about the rule book, just run it at club days and see how it goes.
I believe all classes should be tested at club days before being considered for the Nationals.
Plus it doesn’t have that much relevance at a National now since the split as the age gap of the bikes isn’t that great.
The only real problem I foresee with such a class is determining the age of a bike.
Establishing whether a Maico or CZ is a 72 or 73 model is one thing but what do you do with the 78 Honda CR that has been fitted with 83 model forks?
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Are you using the Kobayashi Maru Algorithm? ;)
I did chuckle :D
The only real problem I foresee with such a class is determining the age of a bike.
Establishing whether a Maico or CZ is a 72 or 73 model is one thing but what do you do with the 78 Honda CR that has been fitted with 83 model forks?
]
effluent stirrer
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A race is a race, first over the line wins and it should stay that way.
If you are old and worn out and are at the tail end of the field then you are obviously still riding because you enjoy getting out and giving the bike a run and spending time with the old mates.
No matter how you look at it the guys that can go fast deserve to win.
We should be encouraging younger blokes to ride the old bikes in every way we can or else the sport will inevitably die out as we die out.
If you want to reward (encourage?) the greybeards then give out a trophy each race meeting for the "best scoring over 50 rider" or something similar.
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A race is a race, first over the line wins and it should stay that way.
If you are old and worn out and are at the tail end of the field then you are obviously still riding because you enjoy getting out and giving the bike a run and spending time with the old mates.
No matter how you look at it the guys that can go fast deserve to win.
We should be encouraging younger blokes to ride the old bikes in every way we can or else the sport will inevitably die out as we die out.
If you want to reward (encourage?) the greybeards then give out a trophy each race meeting for the "best scoring over 50 rider" or something similar.
I'm with you on that one. How pathetic would Peter Brock or Dick Johnson had of looked if they complained about Skaifey or Lowndes taking races off them purely on the age difference.
If you're good enough youre old enough.
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Suggest changing the name of the thread to
"Wouldn't you like to go home with a trophy too?"
To me its just expecting more work from those who already bust their asses to put on events for us.
And don't forget, so many do nothing except expect it ::)
I thought this was a long the lines of why we already have age races sometimes.
I reckon if your not happy about the privilege of growing old and still being able to play in the dirt, crawl under a rock die.
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It’s all just a bit of fun
Fun, remember that, the reason why we ride & race, along with a sense of achievement and some bragging rights against your mates
It doesn’t take anything away from the outright winners.
Did you never have a handicap race at a club day? An official on the day gives the slowest riders a headstart in an all-in race in an effort to see everyone get to the line at the same time. Usually makes for a fun dramatic finish to end the day for both spectators and riders.
Remember the State teams race at the end of the Broadford Nationals, it didn’t take away anything form anyones titles and they were one of the best races of the weekend as all the best riders were all in together with a close to full grid. Didn’t need anything in a rule book to put it on and there was a lot of ad-libbing in deciding who was going to race for which State but everyone seemed to enjoy it at the time.
If Bathurst had of used a handicap system for the smaller cars it may have made it a bit more interesting than all the teams using the same running gear under the car, the same graphics outside the car, with just a few different sponsor names in amongst the splash graphics.
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Its nether been about anything other than the fun.
The moment the fun is out or becomes too tarnished by those continually unwilling to accept the boundaries between classes, I'm out.
I like the novelty of the idea.
But our NSW meetings are growing and running so exceptional well because of the continued efforts and hard work of the usual minority who run the meetings, and same old faces at working bees etc. I for one owe these people a debt, thank you.
I don't think its fair to expect more off them.
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To me the fun is about the duel with the bloke next to me,
The bloke who just overtook me or the bloke I am about to overtake,
At this stage absolutely nothing else, I honestly don't care about who came first or second let alone look at me, cause on corrected times,,,,,,,,,,,, ::) the word wank now springs to mind ::)
The fun for me is only and always the fight to get in front of the next guy beside me or in front of me.
just the way it is for me anyhow ;D And I like it, thats the only reason I am here.
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And the pure thrill of hanging on to an engine with the trigger held snuggly in my right hand ;D 8)
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I think the idea of handicaps has it's place at club level but probably not at National level. However I do think something needs to happen to encourage the older riders with old machines Pre 60 to Pre 70 to bring them out. It doesn't even have to be to race them.
I don't believe a younger rider (even riders around 55) should be racing these bikes for National Championships, it really doesn't mean much to me. Maybe a concourse with points awarded, then points for authenticity of rider and machine (including riding gear). Then a handicap race, with the handicap worked out combining rider and bike age.
Just a thought.
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There is some merit in something like this however it can't happen now until the 2016 rule book. Currently we do have age groups in EVO (in Post Classic) and Pre 75 (in Classic) as well as a separate races for the overall Championship. Although the results on the Mylaps website don't show this for the Aust Post Classic Champs or the Qld Classic and Post Classic Champs.
There is no point having a different system if the people doing the work can't handle it. Please note the results for age groups can be shown correctly but for whatever reason they aren't.
Personally I have previously put a view forward that the older classes Pre 60, Pre 65 & Pre 70 should have a timed handicap system that is worked out by adding the age of the rider and bike together. Highest number starts 1st etc. What 65 plus year old wants to race against a 30 to 40 plus year old who may not have even been born when the bike was new.
There is nothing wrong with the current age groups as well as a combined overall, it just has to be given a reasonable chance to succeed. Also the minimum number to constitute a Championship class needs to be dropped to maybe 6 instead of 10. The groups for EVO also don't need to be changed to Pre 85. The EVO classes had the highest entry numbers of all the classes at PCMXC at Toowoomba.
Of course the main thing here is K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid)
Kevin
As usual the MA association forks another potentiol idea before it gets any legs ::) With an aging rider population riders in their 50s,60s, 70s lets wait another couple of years before we can try anything ::)
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I think the current age group classes already have this covered . As Ted says it smacks a bit of modern world thinking that everyone has to be a winner or its not fair .
On the forum at least ( not sure about the real world )people cant agree on the definition of the EVO rules . so i can see this being very easy to manipulate and hard to regulate .
I can see the novelty value of it though and if a club wants to give it go all power to them.
I am all for recognising anyone who still races over the age of 60 and over 70s you blokes are absolute legends , Respect 8) For our up coming series we are giving free entry to all riders over 60yrs and a stand alone 60 yrs plus class where the competitors will decide on race format and handicaping etc between themselves on the day .
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I feel that this scoring system has a lot of merit for club level competition for certain events.
Racing is racing and the fastest rider wins BUT at club level there is always room for alternatives to add a fun factor and get riders that don't normally ride against each other on the track at the same time. Lets face it if you ride 250 Pre75 at 8 meetings a year at a club there are usually a few 'place getters' who most riders know are battling for the win. This system could be used on some occassions to shake things up maybe suddenly the rider on the '71 model who is 65yo is in the hunt against the young! ;D 40yo 'gun' on the '74 model . Not every race or even every meeting but on some accassions. Added interest and throws up variations to the normal outcomes.
These handicap systems have been used in many many sports very succesfully. They need to be simple, easy to administer and easy to understand.
Golf, sailing, shooting, tennis, speedway, horse racing, drag racing and many others all use some form of handicaping in some events NOT ALL EVENTS is the key here.
Imagine at club meeting running the Pre70, 75 and 78 bikes together around a grass track. score each class seperately and award 1st, 2nd & 3rd FATL in each and then also use this scoring system to award 1,2 & 3 handicap. You can not tell me people would not be interested to see how they go.
In this case all Pre75s would be deemed '74 models and the same for the other two ERAs. Yes the fastest rider on probably the fastest Pre78 would win outright but who would win on handicap???
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If wanted to win a handicaped race i would enter the special olympics *** ;) Winners will always be winners and its nice to have the rest along to help pay the expenses of running a meeting ;D
**** does not apply to racers over 60 yrs , your all champions :)
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If wanted to win a handicaped race i would enter the special olympics *** ;) Winners will always be winners and its nice to have the rest along to help pay the expenses of running a meeting ;D
**** does not apply to racers over 60 yrs , your all champions :)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
On this one, I find myself in one hundred per cent agreeing on both accounts 8)
I enjoy these gathering/meetings for the social aspect as well, which takes time too.
I am already struggling to find the fun in must doo's, such as flagging duties and track maintenance.
I for one am not interested in doing extra choirs, I go to events to escape it.
If some of you guys want to put your hand up for even more work?? go for it, knock yourselves out.
Why over complicate ??? You don't have to go home with a piece of plastic, I don't think that is where the fun lays or lies or whatever.
I am all for recognising anyone who still races over the age of 60 and over 70s you blokes are absolute legends , Respect 8) For our up coming series we are giving free entry to all riders over 60yrs and a stand alone 60 yrs plus class where the competitors will decide on race format and handicaping etc between themselves on the day .
I reckon that would be a great way of keeping some old buzzards on their old bikes around, including this one in four years time ;D
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I think the current age group classes already have this covered . As Ted says it smacks a bit of modern world thinking that everyone has to be a winner or its not fair .
On the forum at least ( not sure about the real world )people cant agree on the definition of the EVO rules . so i can see this being very easy to manipulate and hard to regulate .
I can see the novelty value of it though and if a club wants to give it go all power to them.
I am all for recognising anyone who still races over the age of 60 and over 70s you blokes are absolute legends , Respect 8) For our up coming series we are giving free entry to all riders over 60yrs and a stand alone 60 yrs plus class where the competitors will decide on race format and handicaping etc between themselves on the day .
Would you provide free return airfare to Un Zed and bike as well.
Kevin
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I think the current age group classes already have this covered . As Ted says it smacks a bit of modern world thinking that everyone has to be a winner or its not fair .
On the forum at least ( not sure about the real world )people cant agree on the definition of the EVO rules . so i can see this being very easy to manipulate and hard to regulate .
I can see the novelty value of it though and if a club wants to give it go all power to them.
I am all for recognising anyone who still races over the age of 60 and over 70s you blokes are absolute legends , Respect 8) For our up coming series we are giving free entry to all riders over 60yrs and a stand alone 60 yrs plus class where the competitors will decide on race format and handicaping etc between themselves on the day .
Would you provide free return airfare to Un Zed and bike as well.
Kevin
Kev if i win the lottery tonight your on :) i can however offer you free entry i think you qualify on both counts now as an international and a senior legend 8)
No licences required ( however we are happy to sell anyone who feels the need for a licence a piece of paper for $150.00 witch will be refunded at the end of the meeting as long as you have had a good time :)
I have a mate down country who has a shed full of really cool bikes including a number of Maicos , and there must be a couple with your numer on them :)
All joking aside , always happy to see visitors from the west island who want to enjoy a bit of low cost no fuss old bike racing :)
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I actually like the idea if it contributes to getting more people out there - trophies or not. On another thread I mentioned it was only a matter of time before the "sheepstation" crowd came out and started poo pooing the "out for a ride" guys. Just remember - especially as people get older - the percentage of guys out for a ride increases and if you don't accommodate for them it all stops. Funny think that may have happened in the last couple of years.
Saying that - this would be good at a club level - if you raced for points, WA doesn't bother - but wonder about Nats events.
Rossco
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GMC
Good point and obviously one for discussion but common sense would suggest that for this additional scoring system, you would deem the official age of the bike by its model year or if modified with later components (deemed to be significant e.g. forks, motor, brakes etc.....) then the year would become the latter. So using your example, a 78 would in that case be deemed an 83 model.
Gippslander
If you read the proposal thoroughly, it does not replace anything but is an additional system, so the fast guys, young or old will still be fast & still pick up the silverware, no change. This idea is to encourage the 'others majority' who make up the numbers at meetings who typically finish in the slowest 66%. Events will be much healthier with full 40 starter grids than 10 or 12 etc. And as another example, if a young fast guy who just cant knock of the top 2 or 3 chooses to buy an 86 or 87 model bike rather than an 89 to compete with, then he/she still might get a podium over the line but gets a real good chance to win on handicap results.
Ted
This idea is in addition to not replacing anything. no one will be complaining about the fast guys winning, they would still be doing what they do best, that is not & will never be under threat.
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I do agree with Geoff Morris, back in the 60`s and 70`s there where always handicap races. clerk of the course did the handicap race grading. he would take notice of the slow and fast riders on the day, and grade it accordly.
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WA still runs handicap races. At the premier Wandering Event the final, and major, race of the day is a handicap - and it is awesome to watch with all grades out there ;D
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I do believe handicap races are great. One of the 1st race I won was a handicap in 1974. I was on a 1974 Maico 250 and was C Grade. The C Graders started 1st 15 secs in front of the A & B Graders. I lead from the start and lapped a A Grade rider (Vern Grayson) on the 2nd or 3rd lap who had fallen on the 1st lap. Anyway Vern stayed with and eventually unlapped himself with a lap to go. The other A & B Graders didn't catch me. For some reason the ACUQ grading committee moved me to B Grade after that.
Anyway Handicap races do have a place. However for the popular classes EVO, Pre 75 and maybe even Pre 78 and eventually Pre 85 I believe age groups are the way to go, at the Australian Classic and Post Classic MX and probably DT to. I'm not involved in Classic DT so I haven't got the right to comment on it.
Having said this I do believe something needs to happen to encourage the older riders and bikes (Pre 60 to Pre 70) to come to National Championship. Handicap racing and other things (concourse etc) could encourage that.
Just another point the system proposed depends on the use of transponders and the people operating the system being able to do the handicapping etc. It also adds another cost.
Kevin
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Transponders will become the norm even down to club level. Volunteers are increasingly hard to come by. It will cost no more to include the suggested system. The system proposed is automatic so once punched into the computor takes no extra work and is not open to abuse as suggested. It is a set formular, not a variable handicap.To say that it has to wait till the 2016 MoMs is a nonsence, it can be included as a support event or run concurrently tomorrow.
To liken our situation to Brock/Skaife is missing the point, particularly from one who doesn't ride but puts a young gun on his bike. This young gun is a good kid and is very welcome and only used to make a point when it's suggested we old guys cant hack it.
Bottom line is it is a good suggestion, chewed to near death on the foum. The intent is clear, an extra fun dimension to our sport with no perceivable downside.
I'll report back when I've tried it.
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We had a handicap race ,last round of the day at the Thumpercross last year .on transponder times from the previous races .Staggered start and the fast guys didn't get thru till the last lap . Good fun race and the slow guys pushed a bit faster being at the pointy end for a little while .
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Well, looking at the poll results, while it's not a huge response, it does look like there is enthusiasm and interest in the idea. I am not sure what could happen from here, perhaps our innovative thinker who proposed this might look at how to take it forwards...
For anyone who wants to know what the proposal was, check out Page 1 of this thread.
http://forum.ozvmx.com/index.php?topic=35072.0
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If you are looking at 'points scoring' for either a 'series' or 'overall winner over a weekend' I feel one must take into consideration the number of riders in the race. Someone that beats 40 riders deserves more than someone that only has to beat 6 riders.
If you win a race with 40 starters you get 39 points, if you finish 38th you get 2 points. If you win a race with 6 starters, you get 5 points, if a riders comes 5th in the race he gets 1 point.
Big fish in a little pond is not a big fish.
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Auckland go to start line,handicapp your self,go racing have fun.
PS what is a rule book?
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What happens JO..when you get to the third heat of an event ..there were 40 guys on the line for the first heat..then the third heat you only have 10 starters???... I think the existing points scoring works well.. when you try to weight results / finishing place / bike / age / how fat you are.... with all sorts of permutations..it gets messy..
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Really it is better to use the KISS principal. Kept It Simple Stupid.
We aren't Juniors who love to take a bit of plastic gold to school for show and tell. Even that wears thin pretty quickly. A lot of VMX club days in SE Qld aren't even scored. I haven't heard anyone complaining (or volunteering to do the scoring).
State and National Championships are the only ones that count. But everyone do what suits them.
Events like the Goodwood Festival of Speed have a mix of both competition and demonstration events. It is more about celebrating the past.
Kevin