OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Suzuki => Topic started by: nelpd96 on June 23, 2014, 09:54:27 pm
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Hello fellow inmates. Just thought I would pop this up here as a place holder. I had one of these when I was a young fella and looking to get into Vinduro another one came up at the right price. It was purchased sight unseen and a 6 hour round trip with the trailer to pick it up and I was ready to go. The bike was a running concern when it went on the trailer and even came with a pink slip. It has taken me less than a week to reduce it all to several boxes of bits. The frame will be going off to be sandblasted and powder coated this week and then the rest of the clean up can begin in earnest. It will not be a resto to a standard of most on here rather a budget clean up that gets it looking neat and serviceable for some fun in the bush.
Photos are from the ebay listing, my shed now and a picture of what I hope it will look like when I am finished.
Cheers
Paul
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/05_zps77af2346.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/05_zps77af2346.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/_59_zps3c600015.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/_59_zps3c600015.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/_58_zps70989247.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/_58_zps70989247.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140623_211314146_zps3ec64855.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140623_211314146_zps3ec64855.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140623_211318149_zpsf20b4f44.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140623_211318149_zpsf20b4f44.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140623_211327435_zps02a5b411.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140623_211327435_zps02a5b411.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140623_211359471_zpsd9840974.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140623_211359471_zpsd9840974.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/1987or_TS250X_blk_790_zps5f44405b.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/1987or_TS250X_blk_790_zps5f44405b.jpg.html)
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easy bike to live with. hope you enjoy the rebuild process and riding the finished project.
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I cant believe its still got the stock muffler...I threw an old ts muffler down the tip a year ago and had to get a fork lift to get it into the trailer.... they must weigh 10 kgs.. giant block of cast iron with an alloy plate riveted to it.... get an alloy one as quick as you can!
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except for the rear indicators and paint it looks to be original. I don't have any complaints about mine..rides well ;)
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It appears to be the early Power Reed model not the Full Reed Power Valved 2nd model as per the Suzuki photo.
So Gut the Expansion Chamber, replace the brick muffler,
Machine the Cylinder Head,
LT 250 RF Carb,
Rear shock needs good quality 10w suspension fluid with 200psi of Nitrogen
Forks need new progressive springs
If you want to get inside the engine inlet port and piston cutaway have some free HP but will shorten piston life
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It appears to be the early Power Reed model not the Full Reed Power Valved 2nd model as per the Suzuki photo.
So Gut the Expansion Chamber, replace the brick muffler,
Machine the Cylinder Head,
LT 250 RF Carb,
Rear shock needs good quality 10w suspension fluid with 200psi of Nitrogen
Forks need new progressive springs
If you want to get inside the engine inlet port and piston cutaway have some free HP but will shorten piston life
That is just the sort of information that I was hoping for ;)
Overall the bike is very original which is one of the reasons that I bought it. Everything is complete and it was been maintained pretty well but with 34,000km on it as you can expect it is a little tired.
It is the early model with the reeds in the case and no power valve. I realise that the photo is from a later model but it was the best photo that I could find of a black one.
The LT250R has the same reed set up so I have already ordered a set of Boysen reeds to replace the ones that are in there which are quite old as well as a gasket set and wheel bearings.
I will be pulling down the top end for a clean up and to set the squish properly as well as matching the transfer ports between the barrel and case. I will widen the exhaust port a little and depending on where the exhaust port duration is sitting I might have a look at changing the pipe. You can get a FMF fatty for an early LT250R which has the same side exit exhaust so a pipe and a carb might be on the agenda.
I have the fork seals and stuff ready to go but with the progressive springs do you know what rate they are? I was wondering if I would not be better off with some linear springs to make it more predicable on the dirt. I have not tried giving Terry a call to see what they have at Shock Treatment but I know I can get either from evil bay. Have you played with emulators for the forks or is not worth the trouble?
Thanks guys I look forward to learning more about the bike.
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Just as a side note as well about the LT250 carby. I think mine already has the big one on it. I just ducked out to the shed and it is 34mm throat size on the one that it in there now so I think that should be ok for the power that I am chasing I might just need to play with the jetting.
Cheers
Paul
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I think I still have an exchange machined head but finding it might be hard at the moment,
Talk to the suspension gurus they will have fixed one before
The stock specs of the expansion chamber are ok, you just have to gut it
I was at the LA SX in 84 when Suzuki launched the Quadracer to the world, my mate Allen Knowles (CT Racing) built Gary Dentons Quads so we had all those secrets and pipes
In the end a gutted stock TS pipe worked fine
The big mod was the porting
Usual exhaust port mods then
Dropping the inlet port by 4 to 7mm
Cutting the piston inlet skirt by up to 4mm
Certainly crazy stuff back in the day but these were race motors constantly rebuilt
Remember this engine has heavy flywheels (counter balancers) so we lighten ignition flywheels as well
The quad carb is 2 mm larger and bolts straight on don't bore the old diffuser carb it's not worth the hassle (Carb should have a part number on the side like 19A)
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I just bought one last week for vinduro as well, I actually started bidding on the black one you bought (sorry probably pushed the price up a bit) mine also came with a spare bike for bits Ive pulled the good one down to paint the frame and repair a few dodgy bits, I rode a later one years ago when they were new and thought it went ok for what I want from it.
(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t418/mavman4200p/_57_zps4e4632ef.jpg)
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can anyone put a dollar value on that list of modifications?
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Mavman looks good. Hopefully we might be able to start getting some info together about these things and what works. I might have a play with the piston skirt and things before I do the top end to see what sort of difference it makes along with the exhaust changes.
Son
What would be a decent source for a silencer mine is rusted out so will need replacement anyway?
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Looking good Paul... you have certainly not wasted any time hooking in and pulling that apart!!
It seems just like 2 days ago we were emailing each other about buying Darran's PE175 !
I also had a TS250 X in the 80's. I think from memory it was an 85 model (power valve model?). It was a great bike. I put an Answer muffler on it.
Keep us informed on your progress...
:D
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If you look on ebay germany you can find fork springs specific for this model
http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=TS250+gabelfedern&_osacat=0&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=TS250+gabelfedern+suzuki&_sacat=0&_from=R40
WP also do springs but they are linearrate of 2.9nm #9931.0006.A
another option is to use XL600 springs #9931.0005.A which are 3.4nm but are 630mm long instead of the above TS springs which are 640mm. Same spring OD of 31mm though. Since KTM handle WP you can order those through any KTM dealer
The Wirth and Wilbers springs might be Progressive? Also i think Ikon and Hagon list springs for TS too.
There are also off the shelf shocks available for the TS250 from Wilbers and a few other brands too probably
Look at the single shocks here
http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=ts+250+federbein+suzuki&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xts+250+federbeine+suzuki&_nkw=ts+250+federbeine+suzuki&_sacat=0
Like always shop around, you can probably find those parts cheaper off ebay.
HPF Racing (Horse Power Factory) In Adelaide use to sell alloy mufflers for this model. I believe they are still in business and might have the pattern still call them on (08) 8349 4606
Also i reckon a few Euro brands probably still make a muffler for them. Try DEP pipes in UK or maybe Arrow?. Also check the ebay euro sites and search for muffler/silence in another language and i reckon you may find something.
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Hardo I hope to have it finished before you and Darran are down in August but I will see how I go.
LW, that XL600 spring sounds pretty good actually as from what I can gather I probably need something around the 4.0nm mark but the 3.4 with some new spacers for a little extra pre-load should be a good thing.
SON, I have stripped the rear shock and cleaned it all up but I have come up short on the "how much oil" part and what is the best way to get it all back in there ;) I kind of just assumed (bad idea I know) that you would unscrew the top of the remote canister pour in "XX" ml of oil and draw it into the shock before putting the lid back on getting all the air out and then taking it down to the local shop to get the 200 psi pumped in there. I guess the alternate is to just drop the shock down to the local lads and get them to do it but I would prefer to do it myself so I can learn something in the process.
So far the linkage bearings are coming up a treat but I am up for some new head stem bearings which I will sort while I am getting the frame power coated. It is all getting dropped off to AA Sandblasting tomorrow so making some progress.
What are the DC silencers like as they seem to have a pretty good range for the older bikes??
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After sand blasting check the frame for cracks just above the pivot point for the upper suspension linkage they can crack there just above the gusset.
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After sand blasting check the frame for cracks just above the pivot point for the upper suspension linkage they can crack there just above the gusset.
Yes I forgot to mention that
If it hasn't cracked it eventually will
So gusset it before paint powder coating?
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I was never a fan of Wiseco pistons in the TS but they did have some specials that went to 285cc for the E model and the 85 LT250 Quadracer
I have not seen them for years
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After sand blasting check the frame for cracks just above the pivot point for the upper suspension linkage they can crack there just above the gusset.
Good to know will give it a quick clean up and pop some having in there in the morning before work.
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These may also suit if you can find some (no longer made)
Progressive suspension springs for 38mm forks
Progressive Suspension USA #11-1138
Spring length – 533mm
Spring OD – 31mm
Spring wire dia. – NA
Spring rate – Progressive – 0.32kg/mm – 0.50kg/mm (18lbs/in – 28lbs/in) #11-1138 - 18/28 lbs - 533mm long - 31mm OD
the application sheet that came with the springs says they fit
and i think they had PVC spacers in the box??
KDX200 - 83-85
NX250 - 88-90
XR250 - 84-85
PE175 - 82-84
RM125 - 82-83
YZ125 - 83
KDX250 82-83
So looking at the NX250
in other Euro brands easily found they match up to these.
White Power (WP) #9932.0079.A
Spring length – 585mm
Spring OD – 31mm
Spring wire dia. – 4.4mm
Spring rate – Progressive - 0.33kg/mm – 0.54kg/mm (18.43lbs/in – 30.16lbs/in)
Wilbers #600-0197-00
Promoto #500-0197-00
Wirth # 2060 (FNR13196)
Ikon #500-197
Hagon #400-197-00
You can also fit air caps. I am pretty certain 79-82 RM or 82-84 PE175 caps will fit. I can check for sure if you want to know but it was something i looked at myself 6 months ago and i am pretty certain the RM/PE caps would screw in. I only eyeballed them and did not actually do a test fit though.
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Very hard to see future cracks or undetected ones through powder coating until to late and hard to repair cosmeticly afterwards, two pack paint or even rattle can a better option only my opinion but worth considering that's the way I'm leaning towards
I know some consider this bike a bit soft, but the info on here is invaluable to us that don't cheers blokes keep it coming
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Big thumbs up to this place I have to say. The willingness to share information about these relatively unknown bikes (in a modified/ Vinduro sense) is just fantastic.
Mav, like I said I will bang some gussets in there before taking the frame in just to make sure that it will stand up to any future cracking.
LW, those spring rates for the progressive stuff should be spot on. Given how easy it is to drop the forks I will probably be doing those towards the end of the tidy up at this stage but air caps would be a nice edition to provide some extra tunability.
I will get some photo up tonight of the rear shock with the 5kg spring in there if I have time to get it back together tonight and I can work out how much oil is supposed to go in there and how to get it in ::) The stuff that came out looked about 30 years old......
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Well guys as you said there was a crack in the frame on the right had side. All sorted now, didn't end up with extra bracing in there given the location I just figured that if it goes again I will have to weld it up once more. The frame came up reasonably well even though I think the colour is a little light compared to the factory blue. Not much I can do about it though as the only other blue they had was pretty dark. The rear swing arm came up ok I am tempted to send it off for a sand blast and get it re coated but the budget is just about blown already with the parts tally up over $600 already.
I have not been able to find enough info on the rear shock to give me a chance at doing the oil and gas so decided to bite the bullet and send it off to RADS. That will be going in the mail tomorrow with an estimated one week turn around for me to work out the motor prior to putting it all back together. The rear guard support, number plate bracket kick stand and battery tray were powder coated as well but needed to be redone as they were the same blue as the frame rather than the satin black that I asked for.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_3935_zps013524d5.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_3935_zps013524d5.jpg.html)
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Ok so managed to pop the lid on the engine today to see what sort of condition it was in. The thing is not too bad but there is room for improvement. The squish band is sitting at around 3mm clearance so I will be taking 1.5mm out of the head to bring that down as well as looking at the compression ratio. I also ran some numbers on the exhaust port duration ect. and mine standard is sitting around 178 degrees but the piston also sits around 2mm high of the base of the exhaust port so if I trim a little from the top of the piston to uncover the exhaust port a little earlier that should help things along. 1mm off the piston will add around 3 degree's of duration.
Also based on an exhaust duration of 180 degrees and peak power at around 7500rpm I am looking at an exhaust length of around 1020mm which is pretty close to what we have with the standard pipe so I have opened that up and removed the offending bits and pieces in that and welded it back up as well. Will rip the barrel off tomorrow and clean up the ports and the piston while I wait for the boysen reeds to turn up and start putting the other bits and pieces back together. I will take some more photos tomorrow to add to the collection.
Cheers
Paul
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Did you have to get swingarm bearings/bits mine are toast haven't been into try for any yet are they still available
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Mav at this stage I have not had to replace anything less the head stem and wheel bearings. Judging but the condition I would say that they have not long been done. Even the swing arm bolt came out with just a tap.
Grab the part number from cmsnl and see if it matches any other bikes.
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match your transfers to the base gasket and look to smooth any sharp bends in the transfers, usually gives a good boost to the mid range. with the pipe and other mods, it should pull better than the anemic tug they arrived in the country with. ;D
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Hi, just thinking 1.5mm sounds like a lot to take off head.
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Hahaha it does to me as well so here we go.....
I just cc-ed the combustion chamber and for the players at home. It is coming in at around 26.5cc including the head gasket thickness. This returns a compression ratio of 10.4:1 which is pretty bloody low so taking the 1.5mm off that I need to bring the squish back into spec will bring it up to 13.0:1 which is getting up there but on a water cooled engine and running 98 is should be fine. Along with the other stuff I am hopeful of this thing actually feeling like it has some grunt. Full gasket kit turned up today....trying to resist the urge to split the case at this stage give that it was running fine before hand. Will check the sizing of the bore tomorrow to order a new piston and rings. Like I said before I am probably going to try a couple of things with the old piston before dropping the new one it. Not withstanding all the other bits turning up in a reasonable time frame I should have it all up and running before the end of the month.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_3939_zps89cce0af.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_3939_zps89cce0af.jpg.html)
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Nice open heart pipe surgery there Dr Barnard ;D that should open er up a bit and get some good old "dinga de ding ding dinging" going when you fire her up!!
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You are close to the money
I am starting to remember 2.3mm off then machining a fresh squish
I had it written but a move of the shop wrecked finding that
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SON, that would be a better idea as the squish on the head is not parallel to the piston face judging by the cross section of the putty that I used to check the squish. Also the squish band is not quite 50% so could be a little larger which you would be able to do if you took the lot off and started again. That it is a little too much for what I have planned for the engine though. From what I can gather the 3mm is not really tight enough to be a squish at all, it is also going to be larger than that in reality because I left the carbon on the top of the piston to give me some room for error.
Either way I will be taking to my friendly machinist tomorrow to confirm and run the head back in the lathe. I will do a 1mm cut to start and see how it looks and bring it down from there.
Hopefully at least this info will help others that want to play with these things in the future.
Cheers
Paul
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Somewhere at work I have a head already machined
18.3 cc's rings a bell
1.3 mm at circumference
I think it was close to the RM250G
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Back in the 80's we did about 20 of the early TS's and about 10 of the same engined Quadracers
One of the magazines, maybe ADB did a story on the mods but it would have been as Sportcycles Suzuki Adamstown not SUZUKI of NEWCASTLE
Also I mentioned we lightened the ignition flywheel even on the Quadracers
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Paul where did you get your gasket set from cheers Andrew
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Suzuki had complete gasket sets
So hopefully his local Suzuki dealer
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PE 175 82-84 has all the same part numbers for the main swing-arm bearings and all balls makes a kit for the PE bit of trivia but might be of use.
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Andrew Good to know about the swingarm bearings. Was putting mine back together last night and realized that they misplaced one of the spacers and the dust seals when they did the bearings last. New set ordered from kessner Suzuki. As for the gasket kit I couldn't find a complete one locally so bought one for a LT 250R 1985 as they seems to have the same engine. A quick look days that they are the same at least for the top end.
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So it turns out the guy that does my machine work does not trust my measurements (which is fair enough as you can't really stick it back on) so I have to see another fellow tomorrow to confirm the amount to come off the head before machining Thursday to set the squish. The reeds and bearings turned up today so I will give a proper update over the weekend with some photos and such of the head before and after as well as part numbers for the reed once I have confirmed 100% that they are the right ones.
Cheers
Paul
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You are all probably sick of updates by now but I will keep plugging away.
Head has been skimmed, squish now sits at 1.4mm which is pretty much spot on. Barrell come off tonight as well so that I could have a decent look at everything and take some measurements. I have to say I am very impressed, nearly 30 years old and 34,000km and this this still has the standard piston and rings in it and they are still within spec. the end gap on the rings is 0.6mm max allowable according to the manual is 0.85mm so plenty of room. Now that I have it apart I will give the barrel a quick hone to give the rings something to seat into.
Other than that most of the bits I ordered have turned up including the Boysen reeds. It was a bit of a guess that they were going to work but they look like they will be the right ones. Should have it all back together and in the frame by the end of the weekend.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_3967_zps3e83d02d.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_3967_zps3e83d02d.jpg.html)
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Don't stop updating us !!
I'm loving this topic
Cheers
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looks like a few dags and some extra width as such in that transfer area and the bridges could do with a knife edging..wack the base gasket on and see what needs trimming out. gone this far might as well go the 100%
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looks like a few dags and some extra width as such in that transfer area and the bridges could do with a knife edging..wack the base gasket on and see what needs trimming out. gone this far might as well go the 100%
That is certainly the plan. I still have a bit more of the old gasket to clean up but it is getting too cold in the shed at the moment so I am sitting at the computer with a cuppa at the moment typing this ;D
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I am sorry that I have been too busy to look for my last head for the exact dimensions,
You are going OK BUT,
If you want it to perform the head needs more off it, the dome is much smaller then the clearance is maintained to prevent detonation, so it needs more work,
I would also use a new Piston Kit, that piston might be within spec but it will be worn at the bottom of the inlet skirt and my Chrystal Ball is telling me that used piston skirt will crack soon especially with the increased compression.
Also replace the piston thrust washers as they elongate then break with obvious consequences.
Take a few mm off the piston inlet skirt it is definitely Free Horsepower
Anyway great photos and a good thread on these great bikes
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looks like a few dags and some extra width as such in that transfer area and the bridges could do with a knife edging..wack the base gasket on and see what needs trimming out. gone this far might as well go the 100%
Husky your info is good for bikes that are near their potential,
But the Early TS250X is so underdone the porting tool has to start with the inlet port where the free horsepower is
Pissing around in the backs of transfers is last thing for the final drops in the bottle
Especially with this engine
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So it has been a bit of a slow week with work, kids not sleeping and just generally being too cold to be in the shed. However there has been some progress. The bottom end is back in the frame as is the swing arm and rear wheel. I had a set of D606 in the shed from the KLR that I thought would look much better than the Trail wings. I was right but I must admit that I am a little out of proctive when ti comes to changing tyres but I got there in the end.
I have pressed in the new head stem bearings and the new piston arrived today so the barrel will go off for a 0.5mm bore and hone tomorrow. I gave the ports a tidy up before I send it off, noting serious just getting out some casting marks and smoothing transitions. The barrel is a pretty good fit on the bottom end and there was only a couple of mm in it to match it all up. Fingers crossed that the rear shock will turn up tomorrow so I can put the back end together over the weekend.
The forks are out and apart, I am just waiting on a lead for a set of Gen 1 KLR650 fork springs at the right price (free) to see how much heavier they are. I also decided that I would make my own air caps for the forks so I dropped into JAX on the way to work and got a set of alloy valve stems for $5 and will just drill the standard caps and fit them up.
At some stage this weekend I need to strip the tank back for a coat of paint as well but other than that I think I am just about at the stage of buttoning everything back up again.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4003_zps7de99c86.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4003_zps7de99c86.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4002_zps4d6563ca.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4002_zps4d6563ca.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4001_zps5f00ecef.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4001_zps5f00ecef.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4000_zps9d3e5d84.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4000_zps9d3e5d84.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_3999_zpsa1b4acf4.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_3999_zpsa1b4acf4.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_3998_zps461e3cb1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_3998_zps461e3cb1.jpg.html)
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starting to look like something now...getting to the best bit, bolting new or cleaned parts back on!
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looks like a few dags and some extra width as such in that transfer area and the bridges could do with a knife edging.
NOTHING ever needs knife edging, it serves no purpose.
Head has been skimmed, squish now sits at 1.4mm which is pretty much spot on.
Ideal squish clearance is 1% of stroke at 1.4 squish is not really working.
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Slowly getting mine back together as well few new bits but mostly just a good clean up required and rectifying 30 years of neglect and farm repairs. Not the best photos but you get the general idea. Does anyone know how much oil should go in the forks cheers Andrew
(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t418/mavman4200p/DSCN0388_zps060b70a0.jpg)
(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t418/mavman4200p/DSCN0389_zps86f1cb90.jpg)
(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t418/mavman4200p/DSCN0390_zps79ad22c3.jpg)
(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t418/mavman4200p/DSCN0387_zpse22d1342.jpg)
(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t418/mavman4200p/DSCN0391_zps90ad1d1c.jpg)
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NOTHING ever needs knife edging, it serves no purpose.
disagree, gives the owner a great sense of "I have a special engine" very important ;D ;D
it takes nothing to do and in some cases can give a good boost if there is plenty of meat in the transfers but your right its all in the mind but looks trick.
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looks like a few dags and some extra width as such in that transfer area and the bridges could do with a knife edging.
NOTHING ever needs knife edging, it serves no purpose.
Head has been skimmed, squish now sits at 1.4mm which is pretty much spot on.
Ideal squish clearance is 1% of stroke at 1.4 squish is not really working.
While I will acknowledge that a literal knife edge isn't worth the effort, leaving a leading edge that will induce turbulence will reduce the effective cross section of the following passage and thus flow. Von Karmen wrote some good stuff on it.
With regards to squish I don't profess to have any experience in this area but people that I trust and much of what I have read would indicate that 1.4mm for a 250cc with an average stroke of around 65-70mm should be about right for most applications so that is what I am going to stick with given that I am far better off having less power than a smashed piston.
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Slowly getting mine back together as well few new bits but mostly just a good clean up required and rectifying 30 years of neglect and farm repairs. Not the best photos but you get the general idea. Does anyone know how much oil should go in the forks cheers Andrew
Andrew that is coming up get nicely and I think the end result will be better than mine by the looks of that. The manual is telling me 455ml per fork of 10W oil. The level is 135mm from the top of the fork with the spring out and fully compressed. I will be adapting the fork caps to take a bike valve as I figured that was easier than trying to find some RM/PE caps to fit.
Cheers
Paul
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Awesome job so far mate, hopefully catch up with ya for a beer tomorrow night? AGM?
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NOTHING ever needs knife edging, it serves no purpose.
disagree, gives the owner a great sense of "I have a special engine" very important ;D ;D
it takes nothing to do and in some cases can give a good boost if there is plenty of meat in the transfers but your right its all in the mind but looks trick.
:) :D A better use that as a justification for an expensive bill
While I will acknowledge that a literal knife edge isn't worth the effort, leaving a leading edge that will induce turbulence will reduce the effective cross section of the following passage and thus flow. Von Karmen wrote some good stuff on it.
With regards to squish I don't profess to have any experience in this area but people that I trust and much of what I have read would indicate that 1.4mm for a 250cc with an average stroke of around 65-70mm should be about right for most applications so that is what I am going to stick with given that I am far better off having less power than a smashed piston.
I dunno who Von Carmen is but did he ever design a grand Prix winning engine? A modern 300 with a 72mm stroke has no problems running 1mm squish same with a MX 250 engine used for National Class superkart racing. RPM is around 10,000 redline and they never smash any pistons.
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love your shed it looks like mine messy
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[/quote]
I dunno who Von Carmen is but did he ever design a grand Prix winning engine? A modern 300 with a 72mm stroke has no problems running 1mm squish same with a MX 250 engine used for National Class superkart racing. RPM is around 10,000 redline and they never smash any pistons.
[/quote]
Von Karmen was the bloke that worked out that the effective flow through a pipe was reduced if there was a turbulent boundary layer next to the wall of the pipe. This is calculated by the use of Von Karmen's momentum integral equation. It has nothing to do with squish.
As I said above I don't know enough about clearances ect. on my engine to comment on the effects of a squish band as small as you are indicating. I appreciate the advise as given but will stick with what I have so far. I am reasonably new to the modification of 2 stroke engines but have a fair bit of experience with 4 stroke design. I am a qualified Mechanical engineer (granted most will see this as a bad thing) with over 15 years industry experience so I do have a basic understanding of most mechanical principles.
Cheers
Paul
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The pictures do it more justice than it deserves, as crappy as they are, I would say the reverse to your comment. Mine for some reason already has the valve in the forks, parts bike doesn't. Thanks for the fork info very helpful will have to get a manual. I always say a messy shed is the product of an active mind, to many projects to concentrate on cleaning up(poor excuse but I'm sticking with it). Brendan I am planning to head down for the AGM a beer or two could be in order.
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I think we ended up mixing a bootle of 10 & 15 together
A poly pipe spacer of about 80mm
8 or 10psi in air
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I think we ended up mixing a bootle of 10 & 15 together
A poly pipe spacer of about 80mm
8 or 10psi in air
Good to know I picked up a bottle of 15w today so that I can mix it up get some 12.5w. I will wait and see how I got with the KLR springs before I start making up spacers.
Got a bit more of the bike back together. The rear shock, airbox, oil tank and mud guard/flap thingo are in as are the triples with the new bearings.
The forks are on the bench still for some new seals before I pop the fresh oil in there. I am having a few issues cracking the damper bolt on the bottom of the for so I will try a couple of different things tomorrow. I also managed to get the lovely purple paint off the tank as well so that is back to steel. I don't have the capacity to take all the dings out but I small wipe with some body filler to level them out prior to paint should be ok. It will be little jobs this week while I wait for the top end to come back.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4021_zps66ec8f35.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4021_zps66ec8f35.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4024_zpsf20f9287.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4024_zpsf20f9287.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4026_zps7b55d6d9.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4026_zps7b55d6d9.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4031_zps18338bca.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4031_zps18338bca.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/19224cff-8cf4-480b-a0a3-fe40ee3172c8_zpsc85fa874.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/19224cff-8cf4-480b-a0a3-fe40ee3172c8_zpsc85fa874.jpg.html)
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you need the springs back in the forks to push on the dampers then you get an allen key in the bolt and give it a good wack with a hammer to crack it free. or else, rattle gun it out, works every time.. ;D
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Good work coming along nicely. Cut my pipe up and removed the mesh and carbon build up from the oil bit a bastard of a job but I think it will be worth it cant be worse I suppose. Cleaned the shed up as well after having a look at my photos again.
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The Klr fork springs turned up today. Can confirm they are good to go for an upgrade. They are 50mm longer and have 4.5mm coils instead of 4.0mm. The race tech website lists them as 0.39 kg/ mm which should be a decent upgrade. Total cost $25. Will get some more photos loaded tonight.
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In a little bit more good news I found a parts listing for a DEP silencer for the ts. A quick call to the importer and they still have stock and at $150 the are no more expensive than something I was likely to have to modify to fit. DEPS2909 is the part number for those that are interested.
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nicework ;) always good to have a win like that
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Righto they say a picture paints a thousand works so.........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4033_zpsab5e28a2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4033_zpsab5e28a2.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4032_zps62024ec0.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4032_zps62024ec0.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4039_zpsdfbabc15.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4039_zpsdfbabc15.jpg.html)
The Spring on the right is the standard one, the left is the Gen 1 KLR650
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4037_zps5176136b.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4037_zps5176136b.jpg.html)
This is the tank after a couple of coats of paint. Still need to let it sit for a while before a 2000 wet and dry then a buff. Might even put a clear over it if I get keen.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4035_zpsf65ed722.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4035_zpsf65ed722.jpg.html)
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Could you tell me who the importer for the muffler was you called and their number would be interested in one myself.Cheers Andrew
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great progress, its coming together nicely
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Andrew the distributor is John Titman racing up in qld. Will put at a photo as soon as it arrives.
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Thanks Ill be giving him a call.
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There has been a bit more progress. All going well I should be able to give it a kick in the guts in a week or so. I could probably do it now but I want to get some of the little things tidied up first so I don't have to pull the thing apart later. I was thinking I would just stick with the black seat as it is 100% functional but looking at the thing with the plastics on there is just too much black. The real question is do I stay true to the year model and get the cover with 250X on the seat or embrace the 1987 replica thing that I have going with the decal s and black plastics and get one that has Suzuki on it???
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140727_151332630_HDR_zpsf12b5501.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140727_151332630_HDR_zpsf12b5501.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140727_151453394_HDR_zpsead82cf8.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140727_151453394_HDR_zpsead82cf8.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140727_151500717_HDR_zpsc8d759bf.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140727_151500717_HDR_zpsc8d759bf.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4045_zps61cf02da.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4045_zps61cf02da.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/SAM_4046_zps44eb0207.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/SAM_4046_zps44eb0207.jpg.html)
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If you put the blue number panels on the side plastics and head light like the original it would break it up a fair bit looking good but like the muffler
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Andrew that is certainly the plan I have to get the decals cut for the tank and shrouds as well as the nacreous for the side plates so I will do that first and see how it looks. The upshot of a new seat cover will be that I can get is done with some decent grippa material instead of the slippery vinyl.
Those Klr spring make a really big difference to the front end feel as well much firmer. Will check the sag out properly once I have the thing all back together.
Cheers Paul
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I have pressed pause on getting the decals cut. I think I might have found a source for some factory ones. If I have any luck I will put the details up here for others if they are interested.
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Right so I have had some success with the tank and shroud decals and they are getting made up at the moment. They will be a vyinl typ so the best durability will come with a clear coat over the top. The side plate decals are on back order from Japan. I will get some templates made of these before I put them on. Lastly there is the headlight one. I have not had any luck getting hold of one but I will get a template made and one cut once I have the side plate decal to get the correct colour.
On a side note it should get started this weekend. All the wiring is in and light ect all work as they should. Exhaust is fitted so we are just about ready to go.
Cheers
Paul
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So just over a week with not a lot of progress but such is the way of these things. I rode the bike today for the first time since the rebuild and have to say that I am very happy. The thing still needs to be run in but I will try and put a tank through it tomorrow if I get the chance. I pick up the shroud decals on Monday. I have the cut file for these so can get them made in what ever colour for those that are interested. The tank decals and the ones for the side plates and headlight surround will be coming soon. I have done the templates up just waiting on the seat cover to arrive so that I can match the blue for those to the seat to make it all tie in properly.
I have to say that I am pretty happy with how it rides now. I am going to have a crack at shaping the seat a little and putting in some high density foam to firm it up a little as it isn't great the way that it is at the moment but everything else is working well. I will see if I can get some video tomorrow to upload.
Cheers
Paul
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the best part....getting on it for the first time and finding it doesn't need to much more. well done and enjoy. :D
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Nothing special but a quick video. I will get something decent once all the decals and seat cover are done.
http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/TS250xcoldstart_zpsb528a3ff.mp4
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Good work I would possibly be interested in some radiator and tank decals which style of ones did you get remade , did the head and pipe mods make a noticeable improvement cheers Andrew
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Andrew they are the same style as the black bike at the start of the thread. I know that there was an option for the yellow bike in that style but not too sure on the colours.
Boysen reeds were only $50 I think as well so get onto that. The 12T sprocket for the front makes a difference. Available from Suzuki for around $25.
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How did the decals turn out.
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Andrew sorry for the delay in the response as I have been waiting until I can do a full update but the seat cover has been delayed to though that I would drop a quick pick of the tank and shroud decals. The vector file is done for the side plates and headlight surround but I just want to confirm the seat cover colour before I get them cut. There is no clear over the decals yet that is just 2000 wet and dry with the decals slapped on.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140826_191103477_zps732fc06c.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140826_191103477_zps732fc06c.jpg.html)
On that note I ordered a seat cover that has a grippa material top and normal sides that have the SUZUKI on them. The one they made has the 250X instead. If you are interested I could get him to throw it in with mine when he ships out the replacement next week, it will cost you $65 if you were interested. It is no cost to me but the guy has one sitting there that he pretty much can't use. Or at least keep and eye on ebay as he might list it soon.
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So I have took this out for a run last weekend at a fellow Vinduro nut's place. Please reserve comment about retard camera angle for later ;D
Was going to wait till later but the attention whore in me needed to seek public approval for the noise that that it makes when I am not riding it like a one armed midget.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEQiWMDJ4ZA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEQiWMDJ4ZA)
Also some pics of the bike once home. Still waiting on the seat cover then I will get the rest of the decals cut.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140830_165025650_zps660bfc25.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140830_165025650_zps660bfc25.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/nelpd96/IMG_20140830_165056685_zps51085c2e.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/nelpd96/media/IMG_20140830_165056685_zps51085c2e.jpg.html)
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Great job mate. Well done.
Now make sure you enter some HEAVEN meetings on it !! ;)
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Cheers Hardo depending on what happens after the long ride I might try to get up your way for the last one of the year.
Cheers Paul
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Thanks for the seat cover offer but I already have one fitted I will pm you about the decals though(not a great photo) took it for a ride today came home with a big smile pipe mods made a difference , now might pull the head off and give it a hair cut but not sure it really needs it might have had one already , i think I like it more than my drz400 its like riding a push bike forgot how good a two stroker feels to ride on a twisty bush track been a while.
(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t418/mavman4200p/DSCN0406_zps869e1fb2.jpg)
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Now that you have ridden it, what do you want it to do different ?
And what are you prepared to loose ?
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Andrew, it should be pretty easy to do a set up like mine with the same colours as your bike so light and dark blue in contrast to the light blue and white on mine. I will ask the lads how much when I get the backgrounds cut, let me know if you want a set of them as well.
SON,
To be honest I am very happy with the bike given how much I have spent on it. I would like it to be a little more scary in the power department but to be honest that is just going to make it harder to ride as the lack of a power valve means that I am going to be trading off low end power which given my riding ability is about a low as I would like it. I will see how I go but the only other thing I might do is some Gold valve emulators in the fork to allow me to tune them a little better but if it only comes out once a month for a Vinduro then it will probably be fine.
Cheers
Paul
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A set of tank and radiator ones with light blue highlights and dark blue main graphics would be great if you could get me a price as well as the number plate and headlight ones in the green that is close to the ones on Google images for the 84/5 model would be great pm me if it is possible to do thanks Andrew.
Son I'm quite impressed by the bike my suspension has been done some time ago with air caps unknown springs etc it handles quite well a bit more top end would be good but as Paul has put it not much needs doing it calves a good line at a fair rate of knots on the track which is well in line with my ability can't wait to use it more
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Flywheels are heavy, counter balancer etc, so lightening the ignition rotor will give it a little hit,
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Will have a look at the flywheel but the downside is more peaky on steeper hills
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Andrew is this the green that you are talking about
http://p1.bikepics.com/2007%5C08%5C25%5Cbikepics-1003297-full.jpg
I also note that the tank decals on mine are a different angle to your so depending on the condition I can just get the shroud ones made up or will I just price up a set exactly like mine but substitute the white for darker blue?
Cheers
Paul
P.S. My seat cover turned up today so I will be getting my backgrounds cut this week.
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Wouldn't you like to bolt up an RM pipe and seat cover to one.
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YZ 250 pipe
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Hi Guys,
my name is Roland and I'm new to this forum, but guess what.....Yesterday, I bought a Suzuki TS250X.
It is a 89' model ( Full Reed Power Model), looking exactly the same as the org. Suzuki picture posted on the first page. The black model with the blue trim.
I don't have much experience with the bike, but I followed the conversation, and you are the experts I'm looking for. Regarding the expansion chamber. Do I need to adjust the carburator (e.g. exchange the main jet) after I gut it?
What else do you recommend for the the 2nd generation TS250X in order to get the most power out of it without opening the engine? Btw. does anyone of you have an electronic copy of a repair manual?
Thanks. Roland
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Hello Son,
does the pipe from the YZ 250 fit?
Thanks. Roland
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the ignition curve will be very soft
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Hi Roland, I'll have a pdf copy of the 1985 model service manual for download by Friday.
Around 150 pages to scan ;)
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Hi Doc,
ok this sounds good......do you also own a TS250?
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Yes, I own a TSX also ;) Mine is an '84 model.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7020/6821881791_09f5667ced_z.jpg)
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Part 1. Size 26.5mb
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=86267C09A3452A71%216524 (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=86267C09A3452A71%216524)
Part 2.
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=86267c09a3452a71%216528 (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=86267c09a3452a71%216528)
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Hi Doc,
you are the man....thanks a lot.
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Roland, I don't get on here much at the moment due to a lack of spare time but I think all I ended up doing was taking the main jet out a little. The bike runs very well but there is probably more in it if I played with the mixtures a little more. One day I will hook my data logger up to measure the AFR against RPM and tune it properly but at the moment I just ride it.
Cheers
Paul
Hi Guys,
my name is Roland and I'm new to this forum, but guess what.....Yesterday, I bought a Suzuki TS250X.
It is a 89' model ( Full Reed Power Model), looking exactly the same as the org. Suzuki picture posted on the first page. The black model with the blue trim.
I don't have much experience with the bike, but I followed the conversation, and you are the experts I'm looking for. Regarding the expansion chamber. Do I need to adjust the carburator (e.g. exchange the main jet) after I gut it?
What else do you recommend for the the 2nd generation TS250X in order to get the most power out of it without opening the engine? Btw. does anyone of you have an electronic copy of a repair manual?
Thanks. Roland