OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Suzuki => Topic started by: Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout) on April 24, 2014, 08:58:40 am
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I've finally sourced a TM ignition to replace the points setup on my TS/TM250 to turn it into a decent dirt track race bike, but need a puller to remove the big old TS flywheel. Anyone willing to post me one for a one-off use (touchwood)? Happy to pay postage there and back of course. Its the four holes type (one for crank, three for flywheel). Canberra.
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Are you going to the Gloucester meeting?
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I just made one with a bit flat steel and four bolts was pretty easy.
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Sadly, am not going Mick. But....just bought a harmonic balancer puller so will see if that fits. Looks like it should - three prongs, 120deg apart, centre bolt etc. I'm sure someone's tried this before?
Thanks Frostype. Coulda fabricated one, but suspect needs quite heavy gauge and high tensile bolts - god knows when last pulled.
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i was hoping to save you the return postage :)
good luck ;)
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Sadly, am not going Mick. But....just bought a harmonic balancer puller so will see if that fits. Looks like it should - three prongs, 120deg apart, centre bolt etc. I'm sure someone's tried this before?
Thanks Frostype. Coulda fabricated one, but suspect needs quite heavy gauge and high tensile bolts - god knows when last pulled.
I have one you can borrow but they are easy to make I got a bit of 8mm plate welded a big nut(needs matching bolt) to the plate over a 12mm hole , then drilled 3 X 6mm holes on the flywheel PCD. Then machined a bit of scrap brass to soften the smacks.
You tighten the big bolt smack it with a copper hammer and re-tighten the bolt again, smack with hammer rinse and repeat 3rd or 4th go the flywheel will pop off.
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Yes, well the harmonic balancer puller fitted beautifully, but came with a very very long centre bolt. nice and thick, but too long - it ended up twisting out of shape. i haven't got a copper hammer, so limited the hammer work to a few half solid whacks to no avail. tried heating around the crank to get some expansion of the inner flywheel, but no go. now have to get a shorter high tensile bolt and try again. mebbe a copper hammer too. penetrene?
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Suzuki build the TS pretty good don't they, They don't rattle themselves to pieces.
A few years back I had the same issue.
Took me a few days and lots of language lessons for the neighbours before it budged.
Bent two bolts in the puller
used tyre irons to pry at the same time
used penetrene by the bucket full.
used heat
In the end I think it was a combination of all the above plus a bit of time and whispering the magic words.
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I see. Well, I guess I have to serve my apprenticeship then. Plus work out which way to hold mouth. Might get to HT bolts too!
Not today tho, all closed. That's alright - other jobbie is body filling some tank dents prior to repainting. Looking forward to spectators seeing a pre 78 Suzi tank on the start line that has neither like a TM, and RM or a seventies TS shape!
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If you weld a nut on the top of a bit of plate steel then you can mount it on with the other three bolts nearly flush and have barely any thread coming through to bend and once you've moved it a bit it will break lose pretty easy.
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Yes, well the harmonic balancer puller fitted beautifully, but came with a very very long centre bolt. nice and thick, but too long - it ended up twisting out of shape. i haven't got a copper hammer, so limited the hammer work to a few half solid whacks to no avail. tried heating around the crank to get some expansion of the inner flywheel, but no go. now have to get a shorter high tensile bolt and try again. mebbe a copper hammer too. penetrene?
You need the nut and the bolt so you can pre-tension the flywheel and the smack jars it loose. A balancer puller was never going to work.
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Had the same idea for my TS250 Twisty (fitting TM250 ignition) but there was quite a bit of worked needed to make it happen. Unbelievably I stumbled onto a nos hop up kit inner rotor points ignition which bolted straight on 8)
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....same prob with my flywheel also..took a couple of days loading up the centre bolt and giving it a decent whack whenever I walked past. As usual it eventually more or less fell off ::)
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Flywheel has popped! Just cut down the long harmonic bolt to better size and soaked the area w penetrene overnight. Clearly not been off in some time and stator plate rusty etc.
But Doc, I was of the understanding the TM pointless stator plate bolts straight on (looks like it does - three screw holes). Are there other differences, eg crank lenght/diameter etc)? Can it be adapted by a diy bloke at home or not???
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yes 3 holes but from memory the '69 TS stator plate is larger dia. Been a while since I tried, not sure about the crank taper. DIY at home? :-\ ..if the rotor fits then it just a matter of making an adapter plate for the stator so yes..it could be possible. Sorry to rain on your parade and I hope I'm wrong..but I assumed the same thing :(
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Doc, have received the TM internal rotor. Have only done a quick check, but stator plate looks same diameter, which is good. However (and this might prompt your memory), the rotor doesn't slide straight on to the crank. Left side of the crank has a parrallel section then the conical bit with keyway. Not sure at this point where its catching, but question is if a bit of machining will get it to be a snug fit. Do you remember now looking into it?
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G, I must have been thinking of some other swap..oldtimers I guess ::) the rotor not fitting the crank taper does bring back memories though..I 'was' going to have the taper in the rotor modded to fit but I never got that far as I scored the kit setup. Can't imagine it being difficult or overly expensive to match up at a machine shop ;)
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Hmmmm.....wonder if a machine shop could turn down the end of the crank with engine assembled......
Then again, if had to split cases, could replace mains and things and do the bearing shield mod.
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I was going to have the rotor machined..that way if it wasn't what I'd hoped for then I could always revert back to original :-\
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Machining the rotor to match the crankshaft would be much easier as it should be softer, most crankshafts are either case hardened everywhere but threads or through hardened which takes quite a bit to machine & would ideally be done with the crank in pieces
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Good point. I'm hopeful as the TM rotor is way lighter than they TS flywheel, so doesn't need massive purchase to stop spinning. Does need to be centred tho.
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Machining the rotor to match the crankshaft would be much easier as it should be softer, most crankshafts are either case hardened everywhere but threads or through hardened which takes quite a bit to machine & would ideally be done with the crank in pieces
Or maye a better idea would be to use a 2nd hand crank that is already out of the motor so you don't need to dismantle yours if it doesn't need it :)
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Just had a machinist look at it and said can't do it properly in-engine, and doesn't think machining the rotor would give enough purchase on crank. Damn! So, out with the easy and in with the hard. Secondhand TM crank....maybe....but hard to know if its a fit with '69 TS crankcases....
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Just had a machinist look at it and said can't do it properly in-engine, and doesn't think machining the rotor would give enough purchase on crank. Damn! So, out with the easy and in with the hard. Secondhand TM crank....maybe....but hard to know if its a fit with '69 TS crankcases....
I might have a TS/TM bottom end in my shed that would suit .. well I have 3 or 4 bottom ends so one might be of use to you?
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I'd be thinking it is 'highly' unlikely a crank from a later TS or TM would fit the '69/'70. Wish I had spare '69 crank to compare though ???
Shame about the rotor machining..maybe a 2nd opinion b4 ruling out the option completely.
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Yes, might be worth a second look. Like I said, the TM rotor is not heavy, as long as was a snug fit with a few cm of taper and key you'd think should do it. I reckon machining out a bit extra inside the rotor so the outer part of it hooked up with the crank taper might do it.
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Yes, might be worth a second look. Like I said, the TM rotor is not heavy, as long as was a snug fit with a few cm of taper and key you'd think should do it. I reckon machining out a bit extra inside the rotor so the outer part of it hooked up with the crank taper might do it.
Wouldn't even worry about the key on a little rotor like that, just a correctly machined taper.
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My machinist mate says he thought of a way to sort it during the night (sign of a true professional). Touchwood that's what he's up to now.
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Da dee dum. My guy spent an hour poring over the crank and rotor before declaring too much risk the result would likely be an off centre rotor. So looks like a split the cases jobbie - damn.
Is it worth perservering with? Course not. Will I anyway? Prolly.
I have some options I guess. Simo's offered a TM bottom end, which means I'd have wholly TM engined '69 TS dirt tracker. Be a bit lighter as a result - you can barely lift the TS bottom end. Mind you, the TS frame weighs a ton too....
I guess I'd be keen to maximise the 'novelty' value by it looking as much like a '69 TS as possible - frame and engine. The 69 bottom end looks quite different from TMs, and, well viva la difference. But that means splitting the cases and the crank too probably.
What would you guys do?
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well if its going to be used on dirt track your better off keeping your heavy magneto sparks as not that much gain in power by going to cdi providing your maggie is in good condition. early tm250's were using ts gear ratio's so unless simo's bottom end is a late model box then theres no gain there either on the track so is it worth the head fork and time to mix and match to run the light weight tm ignition unless you plan on motor crossing your old ts ;) :D
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Twisty .... been watching this thread for an answer as I'm in the same boat.
Finding an offset kicker is proving to a pain in the but also ..... to clear down pipe
Not too sure if the early 72 Tm crank will slot into a set of 69 cases as the primary side is a little shorter ........... I could be wrong
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another option is to lighten the std flywheel :P or simply leave it as it is and ride the wheels off it ;)
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I have fitted and machined quite a few different flywheels in my time and if it was me I might machine the outside of the TS flywheel till it was just a bit bigger than the crank and then bore the TM flywheel so it was a press fit over the TS hub and after lining it for for the correct timing press it on and then tack weld it in place or maybe even scotch key it.
Personaly I don't think it would be hard to machine the tapper into the TM wheel but I haven't seen a TS250 crank in a while to say one way or another
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I might upload a couple of pics for visual comparison and further views.
The points ignition works ok - idles nicely, good midrange. but not much down low and doesn't rev out (lack of advance/retard?), so limits its raceability. Plus, had this funny thing where once warm, ie, three laps into a race, it would start missing and farting and carrying on.
Da dee dum.
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Pictures would be good.
If you think that going to an electronic ignition is going to transform your old TS motor into a fire breathing monster you will be very much disapointed. The lack of advance-retard in the points system is not what is stoping it from performing. There are plenty of early 70's MX bikes with points ignitions that went very hard, Maico's up to about 77, CR250's just to name a few.
The only benefit you will see is a lighter flywheel.
If your point system is not so reliable it is probably the condensor or the bottom coil needs a rewind. The 30 year old TM ignition may not so reliable either and if it plays up the CDI box is not repairable.
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(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/Doctor_Suzuki/earlyts250kitignitionmaybe.jpg)
this is the ignition that miraculously stumbled my way some time back
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looks a lot nicer than my one. so ah, whatcha gonna do with that tasty looking bit of kit doc?
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(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/Doctor_Suzuki/earlyts250kitignitionmaybe.jpg)
this is the ignition that miraculously stumbled my way some time back
Is that an RH Suzuki unit?
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sorry but it's already under the covers of my TS Twisty ;D
Sleepy..I asked the same question once but never did really find out for sure..either RH68/69 or the early TS kit job. I do know the early A100 r/t kit ignition looks very similar ???